India: 80+ Reported Dead, 200+ injured in Bombay Terror Attacks
Just spotted on Twitter (search: mumbai or #mumbai) and via chat sessions here in the Boing Boing tv studio: Attacks in Bombay (NYT), and here's a snip from the Times of India report:
Terrorists struck at India's financial capital late Wednesday night as at least seven near-simultaneous firings and explosions rocked areas in the vicinity of posh hotels in South Mumbai, leaving ten persons dead and several injured. ( Watch )The best live streaming TV coverage I've found is on CNN-IBN (CNN's partner in India). I'm watching the stream now, as I type. Mumbai Metblogs has a post up, I'd imagine they'll be posting more.Armed with AK-47 rifles and grenades, a couple of terrorists entered the passenger hall of crowded Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminal (CST) railway station and opened fire.
Ten people were killed in firing at Mumbai Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (CST) station, police said. Over 30 people were injured in firing at CST, a senior police official said.
Director General of Police A N Roy said at least two terrorists were holed up inside the Oberoi Hotel where firing was on.
Three people, employees of Taj Hotel in South Mumbai, were killed after being fired upon by terrorists and an equal number of people died in a bomb blast in a taxi at Dockyard Road.
One of the BBtv crew members is from Bombay, and I think he looks to the Times of India for breaking coverage of events such as this -- looks like they already have a lot of news online. Neha Viswanathan at Global Voices has a comprehensive roundup of what's happening (thanks, joncamfield). Toronto Globe and Mail coverage here. (thanks, howlabit). Al Jazeera's coverage is here.
A number of independent blogger/journalist types in Bombay right now are posting a lot of updates to Twitter, someone just recommended Dina Mehta, another points to Karishma, both of whom are near the attack site. Noah Shachtman at WIRED has a post up here. There is a very well-constructed Wikipedia page evolving here.
PHOTO: A blogger named Vinu in Bombay is uploading photos of damage from the attacks, including the image above; more photos are being uploaded as I type this post (thanks, Maurice Reeves).
Please add other pointers in the comments thread.
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That is just awful. I am terribly sad to hear this news.
But I'm also confused. Why India? What is it that I don't know that makes this so shocking to me? Who would hate India so much that they would attack them like this?
I know Pakistan has beef with them, but this much? And isn't Pakistan a little pre-occupied with a Taliban resurgence and foreign powers bombing them right now?
This is so sad and very terrifying! Its like a Fight Club attack, only very real, and very wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/26_November_2008_Mumbai_attacks
I've been watching things unfold on IBN Live: http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/video_streaming.php (they are CNN's partner in India, I think)
I'm hearing reports that they are targeting Americans and Brits, that terrorists were demanding room numbers of American and British passport holders, that at one of the hotels they have foreign passport holders sequestered on one floor being held as hostages.
Agree with the above posters... but I wonder why Terror Attacks is in quotes?
Here is the Live Stream I'm watching: http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/video/video_live.aspx?id=0#
I've been following along on NDTV: http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/default.aspx
Jason Calacanis twitters:
* Report from India: this is an attack against foreign citizens--they are looking for and rounding up 100s of Americans at hotels.
* Terrorist situation has turned into hostage situation: report two young terrorists took people with UK and USA passports hostage.
i'm following on tweetgrid and NDTV.
http://tweetgrid.com/grid?l=0&q1=Mumbai
Ah, ok. One of my Indian coworkers give me a little info on other bombings that have been going on. It seem that within India there are strong tensions between Muslim and Hindu extremists.
That would be why, as a typical American, I didn't know anything about religious terrorists killing their neighbors on the other side of the planet.
The Globe and Mail website has some details including maps of the attacks:
http://tinyurl.com/6jnfcg
Only theories right now as to who is behind this, very sad regardless.
This isn't like a news headline, but rather a plot from a badly scripted Bollywood crime film. Hostages, grenades, AK-47s, multiple bomb blasts, dying policemen on live TV, stolen police vehicles. It is most surreal.
A flickr photostream with pictures: http://flickr.com/photos/vinu/
Pictures are available here: http://flickr.com/photos/vinu/
as appalling as this is, the scale,precedent and population make it business as usual. I'm not sure why the western press is giving it more than the usual two column inches. Rumours of foreigners targeted perhaps?
YouTube videos, sorted by date
http://tinyurl.com/5maoq4
Flickr keyword search, sorted by date
http://tinyurl.com/flickr-mumbai
Live Twitter search
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=mumbai
My wife is there now and held the phone up to the TV. I've told her to get out of there ASAP but she doesn't feel it's safe even driving through the streets to the airport.
Fortunately, most of the action seems to be in the southern parts of the city.
But so far I haven't seen any group named as being responsible.
I wasn't too happy when her line went dead in the middle of our conversation, but she called right back.
Jessemoya, glad you caught it.
Because "who would hate India so much that they would attack them like this?" almost sounded like "oh, but look at them in their pretty costumes, aren't they adorable".
India is a complex, ancient land, with a billion people and as many points of view. There are entrenched, partisan politics and sectarianism in some form or another - in most places on this planet. Whether it's hatred of your border neighbours or a struggle between the ruling and under classes, it rarely makes it into the quick and easy shorthand stereotypes we tend to fall back on, for want of actual information.
Maybe I totally read you wrong, though.
@Takuan, there's a guy in India on CNN-IBN now saying that the scope of the attacks is far greater than the largest previous attacks there, in 1993. This is a big one. Basically, terrorists are effectively in control of Mumbai right now.
I think the scope of the attack, and the implication of its purpose and context, are inarguably big news. Yes, the fact that foreigners -- specifically Americans -- were apparently targeted makes it something American media will cover more heavily than usual. The understanding that this was a large-scale coordinated terrorist attack makes this not "business as usual."
@Takuan I think its exactly because there are American and UK persons involved that the press is giving this more treatment than usual. I hope I'm wrong about that, but that its even possible to suggest such an idea with any amount of credulity is a sad testament to our Media's "devotion" to the truth in reporting.
Keeper, I hope your wife is ok, my thoughts are with you both.
Ditto on that Keeper.
I think its the massive coordination that makes this truly terrifying! Were such an attack pulled off here, there's no telling what damage could be done! I really feel for the people there, including your wife @Keeper, as I'm sure they're in a state of sheer panic. Damn this is some messed up shit.
I'll have to do some research and see exactly what past incidents have really been like in scope etc.
I do know Pakistan and India are at at war, no matter what they say at any given time. Since there are so many people there it is easy to get a warped impression based on numbers of victims. It's like China; you hear they have had tens of thousands of public unrest incidents in the past year which leads you to think revolution is imminent - and then the bald fact of over a billion souls sinks in.]
Instinct tells me that this is not "big" news unless there is some underlying theme that is getting traction and bound to escalate. No disrespect to the maimed and murdered intended.
@Takuan, your comments are really puzzling. What's your point here? The number of dead is not the only factor that influences how much international media attention a crisis receives. A massive, coordinated attack by unknown perpetrators, apparently with a political motivation -- that's a big deal.
say seven pairs, total 14 suicide fanatics, a few dozen AK47 and grenades... all they need to appear as the end of the world is to coordinate their attack times. Hundreds may die, but police will kill them all with an hour or two. A threat to the government? No. To the economy? Not really.
Any Indian political scientists wish to shed some light here,please?
I guess my question here is are we seeing anything new? Another question might be; if India has long lived with this sort of thing, why isn't the country in a permanent state of paranoid lock-down?
I just got these essential Mumbai Police and Information telephone numbers if they'd be of help to anyone.
http://www.mumbaipolice.org/imp_telnfax.htm
Takuan, your comments here read as flippant and insensitive, I'm not sure what your point is but you might want to take a break for a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India
BTW, that last information was thanks to Twitter.com/dina
the summary line: To date, at least 666 people have been killed in terror strikes in India since 2001.
I think an important thing to stress is that this happened last night- hours ago- and it's still going on as we speak. It did not end swiftly. It's not an isolated incident, it is an organized attack on over seven different locations.
Hostages are still being held, and whether they're American or British, or Indian, that really holds no bearing on the importance of media coverage. This is not sensationalism, it's live coverage of an attack.
@ TAKUAN: While your skepticism and hesitancy to buy into what could come off as yet another incident sensationalism (which is rampant in the American media), I don't believe that is the case at present.
@Keeper: our best wishes to you and your wife
@Takuan: your reasoning is bizarre. So only "threats to governments" and to the economy are "big" news in your view? A coordinated attack on civilians, with more than 80 dead (as of 02:17 IST) and hundreds injured, with gun battles and grenade explosions, and a hostage situation to boot is not big? What then of a few students and teachers killed at Columbine/Va. Tech, or the tens of thousands who died due to the Indian Ocean tsunami? Those events didn't threaten any governments or cause any economies to collapse. Heck, the burning of the train in Godhra and the carnage that followed all over Gujarat ensured that the government _stayed in power longer_. That then isn't something big?
Flippant? Possibly insensitive since human life is being lost here, but flippant? Bloodless political analysis of the situation while it is still unfolding is fraught with the peril of being taken as uncaring. But it is still a political situation. This is not a hurricane or earthquake and I am not making observations about the wisdom or lack of it in someones choice of an address.
As I stated, I am not up on the most current details of Indian/Pakistani relations and the activities of the lunatic fringe of each side, but apart from immediately deploring the obvious waste of life the next thing to be doing is figuring out why it is happening. No one is served by assuming the worst. I repeat; on the basis of the available information, what seems to be happening is a small group of fanatics is using classic terror tactics to wage asymmetric war against the Indian government. I do not see any evidence of a credibly dangerous coup attempt.
I also do not see this as a point of crystalization for similar fanatic attacks in other parts of the world, because of the aforementioned pre-existing history. I am trying to make sense of this. Is my logic coherent?
TAKUAN:the summary line: To date, at least 666 people have been killed in terror strikes in India since 2001.
well at least 78 have bee killed so far today alone....so not "business as usual" today.
Business as usual will be when you start complaining and being histrionic when India takes steps to prevent something like this from happening again.
Keeper: you are in our thoughts and prayers.
If I appear calloused (and that does not mean callous), it is because I am. I have been following modern terror for almost forty years and the initial outrage is always the same. Normal emotions are high as things unfold, but how many here can muster blood-boiling outrage over Lod Airport right at this moment? Feel what you feel, but also keep your eyes clear enough to see what is actually happening. Action should follow thought.
I'm sorry Takuan, but as an Indian citizen I cannot take your remarks as anything but flippant and insensitive. Hundreds of people have died in India over the past decade due to terrorist attacks and the only time the foreign media or Americans seem to pay attention is when foreign nationals are involved. If you had any knowledge whatsoever about the situation over the past few years in India you would know that this is part of a series of escalating and coordinated attacks in different parts of the country. When you see that you do not see this as a point of crystallization for similar fanatic attacks in other parts of the world you make it clear that the only reason you think attacks like that are worth paying attention to are because of how they may affect you personally. You might call that bloodless and analytical, I call it insensitive and uncaring.
I was just there. This is really scary. India has a serious problem with terror that is clearly not getting better.
My thoughts and prayers are with the victims. Keeper, I hope your wife is okay.
I don't think anything Takuan has said is in the least bit out of line. He (or she - but let's stick with my original assumption) is taking a rational view of a terrible situation. This is an awful thing that has happened, and perhaps instead of getting all bristly over the way he chooses to analyze the event, we should direct our disdain to the people out there taking innocent lives.
@MTRN: hp ch f th 29,000 ndvdls wh strv t dth n frc ch dy r ls n yr thghts nd pryrs.
I can't help but notice how the talking heads on CNN keep insisting that the entire purpose of this attack was on capturing "Western" hostages, and wondering whether all the other attacks were "a smoke screen" intended to get police, army, anti-terrorist force, etc., away from the hotels. To put things in perspective: a children's hospital is also under siege right now.
@Bledsoefilms, the cynic in me says that for the Western media, the Western hostages angle is playing a much larger role than the reporting going on right now in India. The difference between the BBC, CNN, and the local news channels is actually quite noticeable.
BANKSYNERGY:I hope each of the 29,000 individuals who starve to death in Africa each day are also in your thoughts and prayers.
Not that is is any of your business....but they are ( if however your point is that I do not think and pray about every wrong being done on Earth......ZING!!! you got me!!!).
My disdain is not limited to the killers. I have plenty left over for those who are flippant about the killing. There is nothing rational about calling today's events "business as usual". It is factually untrue and it diminishes the import of the suffering being experienced.
@ PRANESH
I couldn't agree with you more. The coverage on IBNLive has made slight mention of possible Westerners held hostage, but really no one knows what's going on, so it's all speculation.
Is CNN really claiming that the other attacks were a smoke screen? That is just disgusting if that is the case...
Thanks dudes. Right now my wife doesn't appear to be in harm's way, so I'm more concerned for her mental state than anything (I always remind myself of the odds when it comes to life and terrorist attacks in big cities.)
I'm not totally sure I disagree with Takuan, however. India regularly has incidents, though arguably not of this particular nature. At least, I don't think it's entirely unprofitable to have the occasional meta-discussion about why media cover what they cover. Indeed, I find myself thinking that the terrorist label may have been applied somewhat prematurely, or perhaps even retroactively by the terrorists themselves (could they have recently been thrown out of work due to the financial meltdown?).
That said, I'm hearing far more about this incident on Al Jazeera then I did all day at work with MSNBC and Bloomberg on line. What information I do get seems disjoint and incomplete.
Pranesh,
Can you recommend a good English-language local news source on the Web?
My first port of call was the Times of India, but I don't know if that's a good choice.
(can't help but think that if Takuan's comments had come from anyone else, they'd have been dismvwld by now.)
Easy, everyone. I'd rather talk about what's happening in Mumbai than about Takuan's hesitancy.
Jessemoya, India's an entire subcontinent, a pluralistic democracy that speaks twenty-something languages, a massive collection of very old cultures that are undergoing very rapid change, and a country that borders on some of the touchiest areas on the globe. Start with the Wikipedia entry.
Pranesh, he knows about terrorism in India. He was asking about the magnitude of this incident.
Arkizzle, everybody blurts stuff out when they're in the first shock of hearing about events.
Takuan, measure and proportion: you could look up Mumbai Dabbawallahs to gauge the prevailing level of social organization there, from which this is manifestly a departure. It's beyond the usual run of terrorist incidents.
NewsX have a live stream too.
@Bledsoefilms
It was one of those analysts talking to the newscaster on CNN International who wondered that aloud.
@EvilRooster
While on various Indian TV channels, the newscasters are talking non-stop high speed, almost like sports commentators, they manage to get the news across.
You could try: NDTV 24x7 , CNN-IBN , and Times Now (Times of India's TV channel) . The live feeds don't seem to be working for me, so you might just have to rely on the main page of each channel for news.
And while there is a lot of noise, the #mumbai channel on Twitter represents all of the TV news in text form (http://tweetgrid.com/grid?l=0&q1=%23mumbai) and includes some (very limited) on-ground reporting as well.
have those commenting on my words read them?
MATURIN: I'm sorry if my comment sounded snide. I'm sure you wish well upon many people, and I certainly did not mean to convey any aggression towards you specifically. I was trying to make a point about perspective, which I feel is one of the underlying points of Takuan's comments.
This is a ripple in an ocean of senseless, cruel and unnecessary deaths that occur every day. To be shocked, outraged, and saddened over this today, and then forget about it by year's end and in January get all wound up over the next travesty that our species commits against itself is all that will happen when we focus on this tree, instead of the forest.
And it is that action... that temporary sympathy and fleeting shock which is truly disrespectful to those who suffer.
My intention is not to seem insensitive or uncaring towards those who have suffered today. I am saddened every day for every death of every innocent person - and I choose that over spending a day or two overwhelmingly sorry for whatever makes the headlines.
Folks: to paraphrase Teresa, I'd rather talk about what's happening in Mumbai right now, rather than everyone's feelings about comments about comments about comments, or whether or not it's appropriate to blog or comment about what's happening in Mumbai right now. This is a big, still-developing news event, and that's why I posted about it. Does anyone have anything to contribute to a discussion about what's happening with this story right now? That is the topic at hand.
Odd. One of the news sites I read had a story about a group -- the Deccan Mujaheddin -- that claimed responsibility.
Maybe the claim was dismissed and the story taken down?
Both the NYTimes and MSNBC are asking readers to send reports and videos.
I wonder if Boingboing is the right venue for items such as this. It's a developing story: nobody has any clear idea of the extent, motivation or even identity of those involved in the incident, and it's difficult to comment coherently on an incoherent situation. Even the established news outlets are struggling to produce anything beyond rumours and hearsay at this point.
@Nelson.C, that's kind of silly. Boing Boing is not a news organization. It's a group blog where we post items about people, things, ideas, or events that have captured our attention. It's not an encyclopedia of completed things. Posts are fluid, not solid, and they are conversations in progress.
So, yes, absolutely it's "the right venue" for whatever we want to post about. That said, we also try to keep the posts responsible, accurate, and non-tabloid, and we try to keep the comment threads on-topic and appropriate.
Keeper: Al Jazeera. Of course. I can't believe I didn't think of that.
Nelson C., we'll leave it to the current-events Wikipedia article to weigh and compile and summarize. Here, we talk.
Banksynergy @51, thank you for saying that.
@Xeni: Here's a roundup of citizen journalism/ social media coverage of the Mumbai terrorist attacks: http://www.gauravonomics.com/blog/real-time-citizen-journalism-in-mumbai-terrorist-attacks/
Stefan, BBC was going with Deccan Mujaheddin as well.
BBC is now reporting (was just rumours, now marqueed) 40 people help in the Taj Mahal Palace Hotel. Also some rescued, the whole thing is on fire.
Not the whole thing actually. One section.
Now saying hostage situation is unclear.
Foreign office note: situation is so confused that iti s not certain that hostages are being held.
Speculation: people are hiding for their safety.
353: India Times seems to have the responsibility claim still up
One does have to wonder, if they are indeed targeting UK and US citizens specifically (are they?), whether this could be aimed at those countries. If it's an Islamist group, it could be an international incident intended to be a response to Iraq.
Xeni
Maybe this is the sort of thing you were looking for. BBC Newsnight just reported there were now believed to have been up to 16 separate attacks/locations in Mumbai, and up to 40 hostages in Oberoi Hotel.
Earlier - Taj Mahal hotel on fire, Mumbai head of anti-terror shot and died, credible eye-witness reports that US and UK passport holders were being sought by attackers.
What appears to make this different (Takuan) is that it has now gone on for several hours (unlike , for example, bomb attacks) and is still ongoing, and the US/UK passport holders thing and holding of hostages seems a bit different to past Indian terror incidents, too.
#60 should read "..40 people HELD.."
indian police have arested 9 suspected terrorists and killed 4 gunmen
@Kieran
I will not be at all surprised if 'response to US drone attacks from Afghanistan against Pakistan-located targets' will prove to be some alleged motivation, rather than Iraq.
Whoa, the front-page picture (same one) on all the uk newspapers is heavy.
Abandoned luggage in the train station, shoes, big blood-gush.
Here's a version.
Sky News video, featured on Timesonline
Forgive these Sky News links (I know, it's just EuroFaux):
Man In Lift With Briton Is Shot
Any chance this is related to the news earlier in the week that the Indian Navy is stepping up it's anti-piracy battles, specifically in Somalian waters?
Eyewitness: 'Gunmen Wanted Brits And Americans'
It won't be surprising to learn that some of the terrorists are survivors of the slaughter of hundreds of Muslims a few years ago in the northern state of Gujarat, following an attack by Muslim terrorists on a processional train bearing Hindu pilgrims. The enmity between the two religions goes back much further than that, of course, but the BJP, India's fundamentalist party, is openly anti-Muslim, and its fanatical wing is equally as adept at terrorist tactics as their enemies. It isn't just the Abrahamic religions that breed fundamentalist lunacy.
I remember reading about that murderous rampage at the time and wondering how long before a disciplined group along the lines of Al Quaida struck back. It may not be business as usual, but even a duffer like me knew it was coming. Once again, religious fundamentalism does its ugly work.
I think this is wa-ay bigger than Somali pirates. Even ones that can take super tankers.
Xeni, Teresa: I'm not disputing Xeni's right to post whatever she wants. It's just that I don't see the point of posting right now. At this moment there isn't much to be said about the situation, beyond trying to find out what the situation is. In 24 hours this post will be at the bottom of the page, and the fickle Boingboing audience will have moved on, just as BankSynergy says above, having said little more than, "What's going on? Do you know?"
I don't know, perhaps if one Boingboing reader realises something about the world that they didn't before, as with the first commenter, then that's more than enough reason for the post.
Nelson, if it were that alone, I'd say it was a bargain.
Let me also apologise to Jesse for snapping at him. I could have been informative without being judgemental.
Sad!
"A directory of Wonderful Things"
--New slogan needed!
I'm filled with wonder. Just not the good, inspiring kind.
Xeni, Teresa: You know, I'm going to concede the point utterly. You blog what you need to blog when you need to blog it. It's not my place as a commenter to dispute that.
I'm off to bed now. Hopefully this will all make better sense in the morning.
Nelson, really, right back at ya. I don't see the point of you (or me) pointing anything further out that is not about the post at hand. enough meta-
Arkizzle - If an organized Sunni paramilitary group in Somalia is capable of seizing ships, and India has a reason to fight them (because their democratic government has dedcied to do so), is it unbelievable that part of the reason for the terrorist attacks might be the pirates acting as a source of funding/arms/training for, say, the Deccan Mujahadin?
It is speculation, surely, but hardly wild.
The "western media" in Australia open their story with the news that "Two Australians injured" - then go on to talk about the nature of the events unfolding. They conclude with the "reassuring" news that no Australian casulaties are reported.
As someone who grew up in Australia, I am embarrassed to be associated with this sort of reporting. My embarrasment isn't the issue though. The issue is the implicit message that western lives are more valuable than others. Until we in the west get over this, the future looks grim.
No, I suppose not. I just don't think it feels like a proportionate response.
Having potshot matches and taking ships in open, international waters is one thing, instigating war on and serving terror to civilians of a sovereign nation, on said nation's soil seems way beyond the shiplane mafia's safety zone.
BB has global readership. We are as likely to discover what is going on here as through filtered media. I believe Buddy at 73 has the best guess.
Indian society is a soft target, once. There will be bloody retribution for this. The incoherence of any "message" indicates to me al Quaeda is not significantly involved. I really see no connection with pirates - might as well blame the Thai owners of the "pirate mother ship" they sank. This is a semi-internal event,likely with tacit Pakistani sponsorship - at least to the extent of withholding intelligence.
January 2007
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0104/p01s04-wosc.html
Those Sunni Somali pirates have hijacked a Sunni Saudi Arabian oil tanker. I really think they are desperately poor men with access to weapons first, and Sunni Muslims second. I would also suspect that most Muslims' sympathies would be with the (often Muslim) ship crews and owners, rather than with the pirates.
I really doubt that these attacks in Mumbai are either by or in sympathy for the Somali pirates. The goal of the attacks is political. The goal of the pirates is financial.
Let me say first that this sort of senseless bullshit tears my heart apart; watching the streaming video coverage has literally brought me to tears. I was personally affected by the terrorist attack that happened in the states back in '01 (like so many others). I also have a friend who left Mumbai within the last 48 hours, so yeah, this is kind of close to home for me.
I also have to believe that takuan deserves just a little support here. Perhaps his timing of his first comments was WAY off, but in spirit I support what I think he's trying to communicate. Yes, from what I know, this is of a much larger scope than anything India has ever seen (and let's hope ever will). But regardless of that, whether or not it makes me calloused (as in skin texture rather than emotionally callous), I recognize that gaining overblown western media coverage is surely one -- if not the only -- goal of these terrorist douchebags, regardless of whether it's al-Qaida, taliban, sea pirates, or whoever at the helm. And this is exactly what the corporate asshats at CNN and FauxNews live for and profit from, so in that sense as well, yes, it's business as usual. (And as Dale Dougherty pointed out last night, mainstream/corporate media sure as shit don't know how to report the international fiscal meltdown.) And truth is, I'm still more likely to be killed by an errant lightning bolt or my own poor driving skills than by some radical Muslim extremist or redneck Christian.
Ultimately and most importantly, my heart goes out to the people of Mumbai. I hope this madness ends soon. Peace.
Tak:
One of the horrendous things about that article is the way they compare Muslims in India with the lower castes of Indian society, to make a point of their low standing. Seemingly oblivious to the fact that their own society has created the very caste system used as a measuring stick of oppression.
The asshats at fox don't profit when we do it here, and I think Kieran addressed my speculation rather nicely.
Question, teach, learn.
assuming it is muslims living in India who feel oppressed, what do they hope to accomplish? If they have been marginalized and discriminated against before, now it will be worse. If it is a declaration of war, they will be exterminated in one month. If they want international sympathy, they aren't getting it. A homeland? Pakistan already happened. Terror is conducted for an end. If publicity is their only end, they have succeeded.
This has to be the work of the truly fanatic and not-so-bright. Even bin-Laden had a clear plan and goal.
Anyone else read Suketu Mehta's MAXIMUM CITY?
A significant amount of the first part of Maximum City was about Bombay policeman Vijay Salaskar.
He's the policeman who is famous for all of the "encounters" that he's been involved with. For those who haven't read the book, "encounters" are essentially extra-judicial homicides committed by the police against organized crime figures in Bombay and elsewhere in India. Strangely, the police involved with encounters are often considered to be heroes. Vijay Salaskar was the king of encounters and was somewhat of a folk hero in Bombay.
According to reports, Vijay Salaskar was killed today, on duty. So far it sounds like he was killed in the course of a police assault on the Taj Mahal hotel where the "Decca Muhajadin" are holding [mostly Western] hostages in the hotel.
Martha Radditz reports on ABC News that she could not confirm that anyone in the Indian government had ever heard of Decca Muhajadin before. And they suspect that "group" is not the one that carried this out.
I for one am sick of the many nudge nudge wink wink comments above.
Yes, there are a lot of things wrong with India. But there is a lot you miss in your blind generalizations about oppression. Our last President was a Muslim, and a popular and respected one at that. And Arkizzle, many of the most powerful politicians in India today are Dalits, the lowest of the castes. Things are much more nuanced than simple "high caste bad low caste and now, muslim oppressed" that is so favored in the west.
Something to think about for all of you: the train lines in Mumbai are already being restored, people are showing up for work in places a mere kilometer from where the shooting is still going on in the Taj and Trident.
"Decca Muhajadin" - 1
Google Search of Decca Mujahadin - 0
My heart goes out to my friends in your country, MATHELITIST.
mathelitist -- Thank goodness for that. One hundred, one thousand, or even three or four our ten thousand deaths is a horrible waste of life... but it ain't World War Three.... It's the fucking impotent malcontents' cry for attention, and I hope for Mumbai that it's their last breath. Fuck the haters, violent and non-violent alike.
P.S.: It's probably too soon, but is there a victims' fund where folks can donate online towards the relief effort?
#92: Try "Deccan Mujahideen".
Anyway, the whole "Mujahideen" label could just be a smokescreen.
There's a bit of informed speculation on the motives here. Could be divisive elements in the Pakistani intelligence services. Could be revenge directed at the Mumbai Anti-Terrorism Squad. (Note the number of famous cops who died in shootouts.)
MathElitist, and yet the caste system exists. Do you suggest it has no effect on peoples lives today?
I didn't nudge or wink once, I didn't make a judgement. I genuinely thought it ironic that the article in question showed the oppression of one people by comparing it to another socially acceptable form of oppression.
Just that. And "horrendous" it is.
I guess that is a judgement.
Oy. A couple of months ago, someone commented about how India is never in the news and nothing ever happens there. I pointed out that Westerners' lack of knowledge about it doesn't mean that it isn't happening. Religious and political strife in India would be front page news all over the world - if India were a major petroleum exporting country. Besides large scale acts of terrorism and deadly religious riots, several Indian states are semi-controlled by various guerrilla factions. What makes our lack of knowledge particularly poignant is the fact that India has the largest English speaking population of any country. And anyone who actually reads all the major stories on BBC online knows a lot about the country.
Thanks for the links Kiernan. I've been glued to IBN all night, because this is just so outrageous. It smells like al Qaeda, but at the same time, it smells like something new. I know some words of prayer will be sent at tomorrow's feast at my table for the officer who was gunned down, mentioned by Adam Stanhope. And the other victims, in equal measure.
Nice thoughts, Johnny Cat.
Here's more on the late Vijay Salaksar:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3786645.stm
Antinous, if you wanted to be bored, I could right now off the top of my head give you a five-minute summary of current developments in the Indian trade publishing industry. By all accounts, it's a lively scene.
India's a lively country.
"Something to think about for all of you: the train lines in Mumbai are already being restored, people are showing up for work in places a mere kilometer from where the shooting is still going on in the Taj and Trident."
surely not: "business as usual"?
Well, it's a tough line to tread between being resilient and being blasé. I kept wondering the same thing after the Mumbai floods, when the city was praised for its never-say-die spirit. How do you make out the difference?
And the hostage situation is still going on in Oberoi (Trident) and Taj, and in the Nariman house area.
The hostage situation is still underway, though the authorities say tha a closure is being sensed.
A boat is said to have been found near Gateway of India carrying explosives and the terrorists.
Allegations against Lashkar-e-tayyaba and we hope to first rescue those being held hostage.
Pictures of more and more bodies being removed from the Taj being found, hence the number of causualties may be much higher.
It seems many foreign nationals were killed and being held hostage.
Even in this situation, citizens are... taking their dogs for walks just one kilometre away from the Taj, and thats not called being tough, its being stupid and pig - headed, or maybe just idiotic.
God help Bombay.
"tragedy is when I cut my finger, comedy is when you fall in a open manhole and die." The drama of human life as seen through the lens of suffering is always better from afar.
There is an element of us/them here in the coverage of this event. Outsiders can't possibly understand Indian social dynamics and at the same time inside Indian, Hindus can't possibly understand the Muslim condition.
Apparently there are 180 million Muslims in India. 14% of the population. The Hindu majority overwhelms by sheer fact of presence. People are unhappy, ancient grudges fester,the outer world is gladly oblivious and Muslims in other places with other grievances would make common cause. Or use.
Can Muslims really be accommodated to their satisfaction inside Indian society? The outer world immediately asks; "why haven't they all moved to Pakistan then?" Quite likely people are reluctant to give up homes and land they have occupied for generations.
What so they want? What are they trying to accomplish? Attention seems the only possibility . Perhaps a bitter core of impractical fanatics genuinely believe they can cow 85% of the population into surrender- but more likely they send a message of "we can hit back too".
The police emerge as something beyond what is normally thought of as police. If they indeed openly and regularly employ extrajudicial killing with the approval of the majority, then it becomes a little easier to understand how violence is self-justified in turn.
They have captured nine alive so far. Real fanatics usually blow themselves up. Unless of course these were taken by shooting their legs out from under them. I wonder who they will prove to be. Ignorant maddrassa fodder? Educated, angry young men? Paid assassins? They tried for and took hostages. Why? What country outside will hear them? Who can they hope to intimidate? If Britain and America were named first,then there is a likely link with middle eastern militants. Although American incursion into Pakistan and British historical treatment of India are reason as well.
They came in police uniforms, with car bombs (high explosives),at least 15,with automatic weapons and military grenades. All easy to come by in the sub-continent but still it speaks of a seriously organized group. With history then. They set out to slaughter and did, but the casualty numbers though high are certainly not as high as if trained military men with machine guns
wanted to turn a concentration of unarmed civilians into an abattoir. Amateurs then.
I think it will be someone on the order of radical students, I think they imagine they are making an appeal and a warning. I predict many Muslims will die in retaliation in the near future. I foresee nothing substantial will change.
Takuan, there is a sense of real fear and shock in Mumbai. But it is a testament to their courage they are forcing themselves to be normal despite it. I am proud of them for that.
Arkizzle, I am not saying the caste system doesn't exist---but it is not as simple as is generally projected in the western media. Racism exists in the US, doesn't it? It doesn't mean everyone, or even a majority are guilty of it.
More importantly, there is no point bringing this up now. It is as insensitive and irrelevant as bringing up racism on 9/11 as if somehow they are connected.
insensitive? When is a good time when all is soaked in blood? Irrelevant? That is a different matter. Racism has a very great deal to do with World Trade Center attack. If more attention had been paid to the ugly fact of racism, perhaps it could have been averted.
As for the complexity of the caste system,I think those on the bottom find it simple. Similarly in Japan, ask people if the history of the Burakumin is "not simple". Or in any nation for their own case.
takuan, talk to me when some of the burakumin is the equivalent of a governor in at least a quarter of the states.
every now and then, atrocities on basis of caste cross the limits of imagination. lot of "lower" caste people experience discrimination every single day. at the same time, for the last two generations, they have also wielded real power---and in several states, they are pretty much the most represented in the corridors of power.
and in many states, atrocities against "lower" castes are not necessarily perpetrated by the "higher" castes. it is easy to make up a "high" vs "low" battle along the lines of marx---indeed many do. but it is also why they make things worse. and why they dont get it.
I fear we are at cross purposes here and do not wish to get into a detailed analysis of institutionalized discrimination in all its forms and in all nations. Can we confine the discussion to Muslims and non-Muslims in modern India?
If the terrorists involved in the Mumbai attack are backed by their religion, then caste doesn't really have much to do with it. The Dalits are either Hindus or Christians, not Muslims. If caste is the reason for the attack, then I would say more attention should be paid to the Naxalites, who have been totally ignored.
The Naxalites have an enormous presence in the Deccan area and are prodigiously funded.
As for people walking their dogs, I would say that is pretty normal for Mumbai. It is the city where trains started as usual hours after the 2006 train bombing. Mumbai is NY and LA rolled into one; it cannot possibly come to a standstill.
-anin
is it possible for Muslims in India to live in peace with the majority?
Sigh. That is... complicated. As many people have been mentioning before, India is a combination of many little nations. I do not think there is much of a religious problem, especially between Muslims and Non-Muslims in the South of India. The Muslim President mentioned earlier was from the South. The strong anti-Muslim sentiments are prevalent in the North and West.
Muslims are living in peace right now in India, only it is restricted to some areas.
The fact of the matter is that if you take a Lahorian and an Urdu speaking Old-Delhiite, they would have more in common than the Delhiite and a Malayali (from Kerala). But because a National Identity has been created following a sketchy line on a map, the Malayali is supposed to be closer to the Delhiite.
Curse you, Treaty of Westphalia!
-anin
how it is being explained to Americans
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/king.chopra.mumbai/index.html
Looks like one of the targets was the Mumbai Chabad House, the local headquarters of the Chabad-Lubavitch sect of Judaism.
read about that. A nod to the "supporters" in the mid east proper, perhaps an investment for future guns and money.
Basically, terrorists are effectively in control of Mumbai right now.
*choke*
It's interesting to follow reaction to stuff like this via web sources but throwaway lines like that are a great example of why the whispering gallery of random blog posts will never compete with MSM coverage. That's a profoundly silly thing to say; silly, because it's so obviously wrong.
Takuan's right. Where was the hyperventilating coverage when a 200 people were killed in multiple simulataneous bomb attacks on trains? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/south_asia/2006/mumbai_train_attacks/default.stm
when people are dying wholesale and normal emotions run high, it is good idea to try to be extra polite. Especially when correcting another. Simple rebuttal by demonstrable fact would be sufficient. And nicer.
good night all, may I awaken to a world less sad.
jahknow, i think the best way me, you and the world can help is to go on with business and life with india as before. knowing mumbai, everything will be back in repair in no time.
i second takuan. i hope tomorrow is a better day.
Hi, I am Rushikesh from Pune
It’s a do or die situation for India. Arrest all the terrorist and shot them before public with live telecast. They are attacking us in such a way that we are just going to inquire and we will let them go again from the hooks. We have to give strong message to world that we are not impotetant . We should direct attack on the training camps, and wipe them out.
Overtwittering? The BBC has just reported that the Indian government has asked for live Twitter updates from Mumbai to cease immediately - presumably for security reasons.
Well, I've seen a few photos of the alleged militants, and so far they don't obviously fit the bill for Islamic militants (which is not to say they aren't).
Let's remember that India had a "Tamil problem" for a while (a Tamil blew up Indira Ghandi, no?).
And why would Islamic militants just spray the train station with machine gun fire?
Anyone in India have any insight? These pieces aren't making sense to me.
(Wife is on the plane, by the way.)
@Keeper: Slight correction; Tamils blew up Rajiv Gandhi. Indira Gandhi was assassinated by the Sikhs. The Sikh problem is over and done with but the Tamil problem persists. However, considering that the entire state of Tamilnadu is right now supporting the Tamil cause through non-violent protests, I highly doubt the LTTE will jeopardize the positive attention they're getting with suicide attacks.
Also, glad to see your wife is safe. :)
@Imipak
That "hyperventilating" was there. It just wasn't covered with as much breathlessness by the Western media (don't get me wrong -- it was covered well, just not _as_ extensively as this) since no hostage situation was present and no Taj dome was burning (making it tougher to compare with 9/11 than 7/7) and because it wasn't the posh five-star hotels that celebrities, politicians, and foreigners frequent that were in the midst of it. That hyperventilating was there in the Indian media. Why did 9/11 capture the world's imagination in a way that prior and subsequent terrorist attacks didn't? There's much to be thought about when it comes to reactions to threats to safety and the loss of human lives. As is frequently pointed out, disease kills many more people, usually poor. Yet, pharma patents have received a tiny fraction of the attention that terrorism has in the past 7 years. How do we account for that?
Capture of political and socio-cultural imaginations is something that is (and deserves) to be studied extensively. A series of comments on a blog post can scarcely do the issue justice.
@Keeper
Indira Gandhi's bodyguards (both Sikhs) killed her (leading to the massacre of more than 3000 Sikhs in Delhi, rallied by Congress leaders). An Sri Lankan Tamil separatist suicide-bomber blew up Rajiv Gandhi (Indira's son, and PM). Sri Lanka has had the "Tamil problem", really, not India. India has had internal insurgency problems in the form of Naxalites (Maoists dedicated to a violent revolutionary overthrow of the government), Kashmir, and the North-East (various states).
@RushpJoshi
I believe now is the time to hold on to our liberal democratic values more dearly than ever.
I think, last night, I was a trifle confused by the Atlantic gap in perceptions of India. I'm getting the impression that the US media rarely, if ever, reports anything about India, whereas here in the UK there is a little more regular reporting.
Last night when I got in, I caught the tail-end of a news summary about this atrocity, and I'm afraid I had the reaction of one who hears about another act of violence in a faraway place where one too often hears of acts of violence: I mentally shrugged, wondered briefly whether it was Hindu-on-Muslim violence or Muslim-on-Hindu violence this time, and got on with making my dinner.
Of course, we in the UK have stronger links with the sub-continent than the US does. Both because we used to own the place, and because many UK citizens have roots there. So I'm having difficulty seeing Takuan's comments as being all that flip. That India can be a place where violent acts occur may have been a ghastly surprise to many, but for others it was only ghastly.
If you want to get a feel for what modern India is like, to get a glimpse of the contradictions of a nation with twice the population of Europe and at least as deep and complicated a history, I'd recommend the BBC's India with Sanjeev Bhaskar travelogue. If you search YouTube for "Sanjeev Bhaskar India" you'll find a bunch of clips.
I'd particularly like to point out this clip. Here, Bhaskar's at the Pakistan-Indian border watching the ceremonial sunset closing of the border. The middle bit is dominated by a "foreigners are funny" meme which is only made funnier by the fact that the soldiers are completely serious about it, and that the antagonism between Pakistan and India is very real.
But for all that, they're surrounded by tourists and flag-wavers (and a TV documentary crew) who just think it's all a good show. And in the last few seconds of the clip, Sanjeev makes the point about conflicts and numbers. India is a big country and this thing yesterday is a terrible atrocity, but looking at the numbers, it has only symbolic significance. Not even Mumbai is going to grind to a halt because of it.
MathElitist / Aninsomniac
To be VERY clear. No one has said this tragedy has anything to do with the caste system. No one.
Takuan linked this article. I commented on the language IN THE ARTICLE, in which they suggest the Muslim position in India is often as bad as the lower caste's position.
The point I was making, that MathElitist has repeatedly misconstrued is this: the article is trying to wring sympathy for the Indian Muslims by saying: "look, we treat them as bad as the lower castes", whilst completely missing the fact that perhaps the lower castes deserve some of that same sympathy.
This is about the language used, and the socially-normal stratafication of Indian society as related.. IN THE ARTICLE.
To make my point a little clearer, let me say this: Imagine you were watching tv, and the reporter said "there is growing unrest amongst the Muslim population in America, who are often treated as if they were no better than Blacks or Gays."
They have related that Muslims are getting an unfair deal in society, but in the same sentence have admitted (without acknowledging their culpability) that "Black or Gays" have a natural place at the bottom of the ladder, and isn't it awful to be down there with them.
This theme has gone far beyond the scope of my original comment, and is very probably wa-ay off topic by now. I hope I have made myself clear.
discussion continues on updated thread:
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/11/27/india-mumbai-attacks.html
Picture of one of the terrorists (courtesy Maharashtra times http://maharashtratimes.indiatimes.com/articleshowpics/3761459.cms
http://content.mahalo.com/images/2/29/MumbaiTerror_LH_112608.png
These guys are really young, mid 20s.
An interesting view on Indian terrorism from Sri Lanka (well experienced in terror) on what India should NOT be tempted to do in the aftermath of the terror.
http://www.groundviews.org/2008/11/28/is-india-reaping-a-harvest-of-hatred-sown-by-indians-we-have-seen-it-all-before-a-sri-lankan-perspective/
@Arkizzle: Hey there, I was just responding to the statements about the caste problem in India, guess I didn't notice that you were drawing a parallel. On the other hand, I do think that caste based terrorism is an ignored issue. So, my point was that depending on the motive of the attack - religion or caste (it could be either) - we should look at the appropriate orgns involved.
And let's not forget that the presence of North Indians in the city has been the centre of contention among political parties in Mumbai.
-anin
good item in 132, let's hope they read it in India.
We really should move to the new thread so no one misses anything.
Today I read an article related to Mr Raj Thakrey's
absence in blasts in mumbai mirror
But my Question is to all those Brave people who had participated in protest against his arrest not even single person turned up.
WHY!!!, Is 1000 people life, more important than his?
Moreover, you all people want just prove to him that how much you care for him, so that you could find a place in your MNS.
Find a place for yourself for you not for some other who are using you.
Neither they were present for rescuing any person during train blasts , nor during this Havoc,
IT WAS THE COMMON INDIAN WHO WAS PRESENT
Hi this is with regards to the terror attacks in Mumbai. I am a Mumbaite, was kind of taken aback by the whole patronizing of the NSG. Sure they did a good job, but calling them the heroes of the hour is quite out of line.
It took the NSG three days to neutralize a situation that should have been resolved in three hours.If they are so good maybe they can be half as fast to respond and neutralize a situation. After all it was just luck that there wasn't a hostage situation to respond to....I mean three days?.
Secondly, they were the last to arrive on the scene like the following morning.And managed to contain a situation which was already contained.
Also one of the NSG personal was arrogant enough to brief the press of a volatile situation.Fortunately no one from the Mumbai police did so, even though they saw much of the action
The real heroes of the hour were the Mumbai police,
1)who shot down most of the terrorists with their
2)Faced them with no body armor and antique (.303 although am sure on the model)rifles
3)Protected the citizens when the needed it most
4)prevented more civilians from dying
5)Fell in the line of fire when they could have simply waited for the 'Heroes of the day" to save us
I think its outrageous to call the NSG the guys who saved the day,simply because there was no one left to save
Also its quite ironic that the press failed to even mention the names of the officers, other then the senior ones in their reports
I'm not trying to underplay the role of the NSG here, just feel strongly that it was the Mumbai police who saved Mumbaikars at the end of the day
Hi All,
I start with deepest sympathies to the brave indian soldiers and army who lost their lives fighting these terror attacks. I also salute all mumbaikars who have undergone such a tragedy.
What’s happening to our nation? I’m not saying the situation was any good before but the way it has happened and handled by our “champion” politicians make me feel ashamed to be an Indian!
Our own “AABA” gives a statement “bade bade deshome CHHOTI CHHOTI bate hoti rehti hain!!!!!” He should be hanged till death - isn’t it a CHHOTI baat to hang just one R.R. Patil????
Our CM takes his Rittesh and Ramu Verma to Taj!! What were they doing? Video shooting a movie??? Or planning for a video shooting set???
Rittesh and Ramu - If you were SOOOOO concerned about people , where the hell were you when people were dying in hospitals? Why don’t you donate your money to people who have suffered???? Hypocrite saale…
Vilasrao - Still arrogance on your face while resigning! WOW… you should have been put in Taj when terrarists were firing.. Tab samza hota.
our Sardaar PM - your speech.. wow! no one can give a lifeless and spineless speech like you… dum hain to terrorist pe hamla bol, go after them….. I know you will always try and maintain peace and samjhauta express because you yourself know you are useless to make anything happen… tu aur teri family hoti Taj me to kya karta?? Tab kya “condemn” karta kya sirf attack???
Anyway…..
I give up because I know mere chillanese nothing’s going to happen. Thodehi dino me everything will be “chalta hain yaar” - just one more attack - slightly severe this time…
When are we going to come together? Are we just going to “condemn” the attacks everytime??? or really do something about it? and if yes, when???? when every city in India is bombed by terrorists? after such CHHOTI CHHOTI baate happen in every city?????