Sit-down-and-shut-up "Christian" Ford dealership is run by a non-church attendee who is sorry about the ad
Remember the Ford dealership that ran a radio ad telling non-Christians to "sit down and shut up?"
"JW Horne," who claims he works for the dealership writing the ads posted to his blog, defending his decision, telling "non-believers" and "plain doubters" that we are "in the minority and as loud as you yell and protest, you will always be in the minority."
But today, Rick Kieffe, owner of Kieffe and Sons Ford in Mojave and Rosamond, publicly apologized for the ad, saying that a) he doesn't actually attend church, and b) he didn't approve the ad.
“It’s just something that went by us,” said Kieffe, who does not attend church but considers himself “a Christian spirit.” “We’re obviously sorry that it offends a given segment who identifies themselves as atheist.”Link to "You Will Always Be in the Minority" post, Link to apology (via Consumerist)
See also: Ford dealership uses bigoted radio ads to sell cars
“We’re obviously sorry that it offends a given segment who identifies themselves as atheist.”
What about offending people who aren't lunatics?
I agree, CinemaJay, but give the guy credit for at least ATTEMPTING to apologize.
I'm so glad to hear that (while he's still kind of a bozo) he's not the complete bushwhackin', snake-handlin', hot-coal-eatin' bozo wacko we thought he was.
Or that JW Horne is.
Ah, the ol' I-regret-that-you're-an-angry-heathen apology. That one always mends the fence.
Well, call me a taxi, but I like the ads.
Las night I talked to my friend who writes/sells radio ads. He says he wouldn't have approved that ad, but his superiors might have. I'll follow up with a final ruling on that. Not exactly a parallel situation, though. My friend's station has Dearborn in its market and lots of Muslims.
Well, said Striatedpattern@#3. I am glad he apologized, but he should have left off the end of that sentence. He was almost ok until he identified that segment. Speaking as one who posted here about being offended, I do not identify as anything close to atheist, and I don't buy his explanation that it got past them, either. They didn't hear the ad before it ran, or see the ad copy for approval? -Bullshit. They just thought it would get past the rest of us that don't live in their shithole town. Nice try, Ricky. You get a D for effort.
Still can't figure out the logic of 'believes in god = christian".
We heathens believe in god(s), and are thus lumped in with the 86% he calls christians.
I still say 'bozo'.
Atheists drive cars too. The guy's just being a bidnessman.
Thanks, Cory for updating this. Acknowledging the guy's attempted semi-apology was the fair thing to do since we spent 24 hours tearing him a new one.
He's still a douche though.
Do they teach these sorts of hollow apologies in the Bible? I've heard this exact apology from any number of god-soaked, hate-mongering, pseudo-Christian gasbags.
What next retail business will be the focus of our hate?
There is no bad publicity.
Athiests, my butt.
What most offended me when I first heard about this ad was that it made it sound like, as a Jew, they didn't want my business.
Now that they seem to be implying that, as a Jew, I am essentially "Christian", I'm much, much more offended.
Some apologies are worse than the original transgressions, and this is one of them.
Look, it's a classic strategy: Release an offensive quip that pleasantly amuses 75% of the audience, then do a quiet retraction as damage control for the 25%.
It works well because the idiots that you just amused aren't interested in an apology and will ignore it, so even if half of the 25% walk away, you're still ahead.
Works every time.
Here in Cleveland, we had to endure a slightly softer version of this BS through most of the 90's, courtesy of a used-car huckster named Bob Serpentini. About once a month, he released a new radio commercial that was essentially a blandified Rush Limbaugh sermon, with lots of "I'm an American, jack, and if you don't like it you can shut up and leave!" machismo. (That's practically verbatim.) It would've been grating if it weren't so pathetic.
Stop taking religion seriously. Today it is almost exclusively either:
(a) a testament to the efficacy of lessons learned at one's parents knee in childhood; and/or
(b) a monument to social coercion; and/or
(c) an expression of personal angst/psychodrama; and/or
(d) any combination of the above.
I too am a "Christian" spirit, one which disagrees with the third-century incorporation of the Ten Commandments into the Christian Faith. So fucking what? This poor guy apologized because the social zeitgeist is rife with this religious crap, ever a fertile source of social familial and personal strife and conflict (and ever expoited for just this quality) - but this guy, like most of us, has no set views but rather the better parts of religion - and all religions have better their virtues, no doubt even the sword worshippers had their virtues - have had an effect... But render unto Caesar,eh? Who's business is it?
Meh. Since the Ford dealership sprayed the shit into the air in the first place it becomes them to spray some freshener now....so OK let's deal!
I mean some people used to worship a naked sword stuck into the earth, for cryin' out loud. Shall I take care not to offend every weirdo?
However my religion teaches me to think that all stupid and/or foolish people need to be offended by the truth once in a while, or else they'd never learn and grow and individuate and think (and laugh and love and dance etc.).
Perhaps there is some truth in the saying "All consciousness has its primitive foundation in the sensation of pain" in that at its root all learning is forced upon any organism.
Physical offense keeps your hand from the fire next time. Perhaps religious offense may serve to incentivize people to practice some intellectual (and yes moral) hygiene.
Bah. Edit out "better"from the foregoing.
All religions have their virtues. We are permitted however to differ as to the value we set upon those virtues.
That's funny.
i've always found alienating a portion of my customers by using my business as a soapbox for unrelated diatribe to be a solid business strategy.
what business school did you guys go to?
"There is a great silent majority of Americans that are believers. The difference between them and you is this. Believers do not have to justify their existence." -From the Kieffe and Sons blog post
Trying to justify the existence of d-bags like this guy almost makes me want to let "the God answer" do all the work for me.
Wait...Scratch that...I just did it on my own. Praise the ME!
Free Speech. I was taught from grade school on that it was not merely a "Right." It was tantamount to a DUTY at times. Yet I was also told to be mindful of what affect words could have on a person or to a situation. For good or bad. And every day teaches me how to make new "Misteaks" in using speech wisely.
This case seems to be a confluence of Very Bad Things. The bedrock issue to me is how can we find a balance between not crushing civil rights on their own altar and preserving all our collective dignity.
In closing, ask yourself if seeing an Ethnic, Political, or Religious identification used by a merchant impacts your dealings with them- if at all?
Or perhaps the ABSENCE of demographic is our new Shibboleth.
From the blog post:
So each of you who find some offense to the radio ad and you want to be up in arms over it, you have the right to think what you wish but you do not have the right to take my copyrighted material and destort it for your personal gain.
God loves intellectual property apparently! And apparently this guy thinks that although he wrote it for the car dealership he still owns it and not the dealership...
I am glad this guy apologized but it was a bit underhanded.
“We’re obviously sorry that it offends a given segment who identifies themselves as atheist.”
So if a person is not a Christian they are Atheist? Hindu,Jew, Muslim, Jain,Shinto, Taoist, Buddhist...you get the picture.
Besides, atheist is a term that christians use to describe those who don't believe exactly what they do.
I certainly am not superstitious but I am not an atheist. Nontheist is a better term.
It was bad business to put that ad on at the very least.
Wait...I don't understand...why can't you just develop your own new religion, like people did before..oh wait...you can...carry on...you guys just need to come up with better religions, it seems...better luck next time...cheerio...
@21. He writes ad copy and can't spell distort correctly?
No apology needed; in fact, I always appreciate ads like his. I don't want my money used to promote his religion, so now I know where not to trade.
I wish *more* business people would tell me what they're going to do with the money I give them.
Well, he did mess up pronoun agreement up above.
Probably stating the obvious or delving into seriously paranoid territory here...
My theory is "JW Horne", the guy claiming to have been involved in creating the advertisement, is lying about being involved, and lying about being "one of them atheists" to make "them atheists" look bad and feel bad, and has nothing to do with the whole situation.
This clears up one puzzle. I've spent a lot of time in Rosamond, and some in Mojave, and the guy in the audio didn't sound like anybody from around there. But he sounded a lot like folks did when I lived in Fort Worth, Texas. So finding out he was from Oklahoma certainly explained the accent.
As a Christian, I could have a full time job apologizing for this kinds of idiocy. There was a time when Christianity, even in it's nominal form, was the dominate worldview in the West. That day is over. Time for the arrogance to start.
As David #14 said, this is a very intentional tactic that, sadly, still works. ugh.
My favorite quote:
"I like your Christ. But I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Obviously, not all Christians are fools and jerks. Just the ones that make themselves look like fools and jerks. But all of the religions out there have their members that aren't very "nice", even Athiests.
I thank my lucky atheistic stars whenever I read something like this. Is it good or bad that you can't even get elected dog catcher if you're an atheist?
Speaking as a person who does not formally
practice any religion, I really don't care if any atheists are offended by the ad. Atheists are constantly insulting people who practice Christianity. Many atheists celebrated when Jerry Falwell died.
My concern is that the ad may be offensive
to people who practice religions other than
Christianity.
I appreciate that the owner of the car dealership
made an apology, but he is apologizing to the
wrong people.
I wrote a pen and paper letter to Ford directly asking what their official opinion was on this issue. I knew that the best I'd get from the dealership was a left handed apology, and paper is harder to ignore than e-mail.
Since stamps went up, I had to spend $4 in gas to go and get a 1 cent stamp to mail that letter though.
My concern is that the ad may be offensive
to people who practice religions other than
Christianity.
I'm an atheist.
I'm also religious.
Do I fall under the rude atheist category, or the potentially-offended practitioner of another religion category?
People are constantly insulting people.
FTFY.
Dear Jaan
Do let us know how that turns out.
Christians and Atheists seem to have cornered the market on declaring their preferences in comments, with Buddhists a distant third and one lone Scientologist.
As a formerly religious Atheist, that ad is an insult both to me, who it directly insults and to my religious Christian friends and loved ones who it insults by associating them with the people who created it and claim to speak for Christians.
the Owists have not weighed in - yet.
Us poor, unknowing agnostics are always left out.
*whine*
That's my first declaration of preference. I avoid self definition W/R/T religion because I consider the whole subject someone else's area of interest and I don't like adopting a label created by others for their own purposes. But there are times when taking a side is more effective than debating the meaning of the word 'side'.
I guess they decided to run the ad and if it offended anyone, ford that stream when they got to it.
OW!OW!
OW!
I've declared myself to be a Wiccan on several occasions. Theologically I'd call myself a Radical Pantheist.
Too late, I'm buying a Smart car.
All you people who aren't OWists can sit down and shut up.
-Jake (who is still waiting for his insect name)
The offensiveness of the ad had nothing to do with religion, it had to to with the suggestion that people who think A are welcome to think this and express their opinions while people whi think B or C or Q should shut up because supposedly there are more people who think A.
And also.. what the hell does religion have to do with cars?
Ha Ha Ross... you said ford...
I call bullshit on "It’s just something that went by us." I was the sole in-house, local business copywriter for a group of six stations, and I guarantee you that not one of the stations thousands of clients ever had an ad run that they hadn't read or heard--often multiple times. Sometimes I literally had the client standing over my shoulder, dictating main points I had to get across. Even the local discount clothing store read through the mind-numbing grocery list of sale items in each new daily ad like it was the Treaty of Versailles.
The idea that such an in-your-face, totally left-field ad was used to try and sell cars means someone thought this out. It didn't just sneak through.
This jerkwad knew exactly what his ad said, and I'll bet he and his sales force sat around the radio when it ran having a good laugh--until he realized that the 14% (and perhaps even larger percentage) of the audience he just alienated cared more about not shopping at their dealership than the 86% he thought he was talking to cared about bringing him their business.
The only reason we're getting this half-assed apology is that the large group of people he just alienated--atheists, non-Christians, non-lunatics, jaded anti-jingoists, etc.--constitute the percentage of sales he needs to actually clear a profit.
Apology not accepted.
How about Skeeter?
Bow Gejigeji! The House Centipede! OW! And I post an image for you so you can see the bug that just about made me prematurely vent dinner when I learned of their existence in a futon cabinet
@Xopher, #42: Another Wiccan/Pagan chiming in. I like Radical Pantheist, but I'm more accurately described as Eclectic Pantheist.
Also, taking religious direction from car salesmen is about on the same order as taking medical advice from your car mechanic. You get what you pay for.
http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/insectid/images/id_full/house-centipede.jpg
but the size of your hand
Wasn't he on the banners in Kumonosu jô?
Well, I guess the ad was successful in one way... Kieffe and Sons Ford is now the most well-known dealership in the country.
wasn't that Kagemusha? must watch again
" You all can stand up and shout, burn flags, gather on a corner and cuss the government, males can marry males, females can marry females you can all buy one of those imports and send the money to Japan if you want"
Ah I understand.
The gay/lesbian, flag burning, standing on the corner cussing the government, Toyota driving minority.
Takeda, Oda and Tokugawa mon are all flowers.
The Tawara Toda is old, so yeah, probably Throne of Blood. hey, I'll check Youtube
you're right!
I can haz link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSllRT8pVBA
at around 0:43
(how do you feel about
http://foto3.com/ebay/dm-bug2.jpg
Fellow OWies, unite! We can not let this "Christian spirit" apologist splatter his false apologetics on the windshield of our semi-religious Band-of-Buggers!
Japanese Macbeth? I prefer the original.
this thread got very confusing all of a sudden. why do I see bugs everywhere?
Swarm Behavior?
let's see what good ol' bucky has to say about this sort of thing.
"The Things to do are: the things that need doing, that you see need to be done, and that no one else seems to see need to be done. Then you will conceive your own way of doing that which needs to be done — that no one else has told you to do or how to do it. This will bring out the real you that often gets buried inside a character that has acquired a superficial array of behaviors induced or imposed by others on the individual."
Bugs? Japanese hearaldic bugs?
Like the badges on cars, without them they are all the same , just transport...like the names of the religions of men...
(Polanski's MacBeth is worth seeing too.)
I'm an atheist.
I'm also religious.
Do I fall under the rude atheist category, or the potentially-offended practitioner of another religion category?
Ok, 'offensive' is a hasty choice of words on my
part. I live in a community with many Buddhists,
Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, and Muslims. My concern is
that a statement which defines our society as
Christian could make these people feel excluded
from our society These are people to whom an
apology should be directed.
Do I care if atheists feel excluded? Yes and no.
I've heard far too many smug, arrogant atheists
insulting religion and people who practice it.
If you are not like that, good for you. Please
be more visible and make efforts to correct your
more misguided atheist bretheren.
It's going to be SO funny when God separates the sheep from the goats and says to them, "depart from me, I never knew you."
Kieffe & Co.: OMG WTF?
God: BBQ
#69 Meridian: Your post is made of pure, pharmaceutical-grade win.
Makes sense. Non-religious people have a higher IQ on average than strongly religious people. Much easier to swindle the dumb ones than the smart ones.
"Much easier to swindle the dumb ones than the smart ones." In my experience,not necessarily.
Tenn: I'm confused how can you be an atheist and religous at the same time? I'm not trying to be insulting here, since the only thought I've given to god beliefs is that religion is silly since by definition god's will is unknowable, and humans aren't capable of putting together a religion that's even close to an aproximation of that will.
Anyway, I do agree that maybe Mitch has a good point, athiests do insult christians a bit too much. But then again Christians like to judge too much even though their savior (I think) said "Judge not lest ye be judged."
Anyway, both beliefs would do well to not force their beliefs on others, no matter what those beliefs are.
The "athiests" I see commenting on this site are as acid-tongued as the Christians they love to hate. What's the deal? Has fighting hate with hate ever worked?
Arg, BB needs an edit feature to both add to my comment and to get rid of my copy-and-paste error with the "anyways".
#71 is a great example of the exact thing atheists don't to need to say. Insulting the other side doesn't make you better, nor does it help your cause. Didn't you learn anything from this radio car ad story? You just did the exact same thing as it in reverse!!
While I don't know of a single serious professional who would write such an ad, I can certainly believe there are clients galore who would approve of it.
Using religion as a marketing tool is relatively common in my neck of the woods. Oddly, the main practitioners are people in the trades...plumbers, electricians, general contractors, etc. You will see ads that feature quotes from scripture or other references to faith. Some opt for crosses or that fish line art in the ad. They also put scripture quotes and the fish or cross on their trucks.
I assume it gets them business since it's been going on for ages.
"Do I care if atheists feel excluded? Yes and no. I've heard far too many smug, arrogant atheists insulting religion and people who practice it. If you are not like that, good for you."
While I'm not condoning tit-for-tat; do atheists have a corner in being smug and arrogant about their choice (or not) of religion?
I don't think so. As far as I can tell (from personal experience), the athiest's reaction to religion, across the full spectrum of reactions, is usually dictated by the individual atheist's own experience of interecting with the prevalent religion's members in their own locale. While atheism is literally "without god", for a lot of people it is also about reacting to how they are treated by the religious-norm, in their community, however that manifests itself.
Of course there are rude and arrogant athiests, just like there are rude and arrogant Christians, Jews and Muslims (etc. etc.). They are probably just rude and arrogant people, who happen to belong to one club or another, regardless of what flag they wave.
And of course there are sane, tolerant, happy athiests, Christians, Jews etc. etc.
"Please be more visible and make efforts to correct your more misguided atheist bretheren."
Do any of us have a charge to temper the other members of their supposed 'group'?
Only insofar as people should want other people to be nice to each other, not as little discrete groups policing themselves. Do the Anglicans police the Catholics? Are they not both Christian? Why would my atheism be dependent on another person's atheism, or why would my beliefs be dependent on someone elses personality? There are so many shades and factions of each group, that there is no way to centrally rule. The only institution all of them adhere to (mostly) is "society", so it is society's issue, just like rude and arrogant people normally are.
People are arrogant or smug regardless of their clubs. You can't say "most athiest are arrogant" any more than you can say "most Christians are raving rapture-philes", so there is no sense judging someone's personality by their affiliations (afflictions?) alone, even the extreme ones. I presume [whatever theistic-group you identify with] assumes some version of tolerance, love and avoiding judgement (as many do, at their core).
As a reasonable person (regardless of your religion), you are only doing yourself a disservice to make athiests the only group you don't acknowledge as needing an apology.
(And indeed the Owists)
OW! OW!
I have a personal rule - I never, ever do business with any company or individual that advertises their religious beliefs. I don't call the plumber with the jesus fish in his ad, I don't go to the gas station with a religious slogan on their sign, etc.
In my experience, people who advertise their religion in an attempt to build trust with the in-group with which they identify are about 50x more likely to try to rip you off.
This rule goes double for car salespeople, who are already looking to rip you off by definition.
Monroe, ditto that (dunno about the ripping off part). I always just feel weird when there is a denomination attached to a product or service. It's kinda icky.
To misquote Teresa from another thread, it just says to me "I am not their target market", and walk on by.
What would Jesus do? Certainly not use his name to sell cars. Especially not Fords, at that.
http://evolvefish.com/fish/fsm.html
http://www.invisiblepinkunicorn.com/
Yeh, I'm gonna show my colours and say I'd would probably shop at place with an evolve-fish in the window.. what a sucker :p
#62, band of buggers? on the windshield of life? OW! theat's an offender- bender! the screwfly strikes!
Tak, did you see the "Intelligent Design"-windturbines badge?
Nice.
Here in Indiana we have these "In God We Trust" license plates that were somehow found constitutional because they don't charge any more for them than regular plates.
I was raised Catholic but I can't stand these plates. I try to look on the bright side though. At least now I can tell who the enormous jerks are.
On the other side I also think people that have those Darwin evolve things on their car are also enormous jerks.
“It’s just something that went by us,” - is a load of crap - My parents live in Lancaster (a town near Mojave) and I remeber hearing this add several years ago while visiting them. If it "got by them" it has been getting by them repeatedly for quite a while now.
I'm not a Theist and I think that labeling myself an Atheist is basically a Fail. It's adopting for myself a definition created by someone else for their own purposes. I'm not a fan of WWF wrestling, either, and I don't have to tell everyone I'm a "Non-WWF-Fan". I just ignore it. Theism is someone else's deal and it doesn't involve me so I just ignore it and go on with my life for the most part.
The cars they sell now come with a back-pedal option.
@73 & 74, etc
Some people really put the 'ism' in 'Atheism'.
I was an Atheist for a number of years until people started lumping me in with all the venomously verbose atheists out there. I have no desire to offend atheists or christians or anyone. I don't always succeed, but their religious point of views are as unimportant to me as the color of their skin, economic status, sexual orientation or age. I could care less about any of it. An azzhat is as an azzhat does - regardless of religion, sex, age or type of suit they're wearing. I am no longer an athiest. I usually answer the question of religion by saying, "All of the Above".
So... does anyone ever truly apologize anymore? Public apologies have become exercises in not-really-apologizing. By putting the onus on people who "may have been offended" they're not apologizing for anything, rather, they've put the onus on the offended party for being offended.
The "athiests" I see commenting on this site are as acid-tongued as the Christians they love to hate. What's the deal? Has fighting hate with hate ever worked?
They are two sides of the same coin, the name of the coin is "blind faith". The way that religion works in society today is the reverse of how it has worked traditionally. In today's secular society the functional rule is "God is dead, therefore everything is prohibited". In religious circles, particularly among fundamentalists, it is more like "God is real, therefore everything is allowed". This would include the cult of Scientism i.e. modern Atheism.
I certainly don't believe in God or the gods, but I understand how important belief is to mankind. We could not live nor function without it. Yes belief is an illusion, a fantasy, but we need that more than ever today. Otherwise all we have is the abyss.
you'll always have me
Meridian 69: I agree with Halloween Jack. Meridian FTW!
Enochrewt 73: While the Abrahamic dominance of religion has tended to make people assume that all religions have gods, this is not the case. That false assumption has led to the common usage of 'atheist' as meaning 'non-religious person' (believe it or not, I've had to explain to some people that 'pagan' doesn't mean that). But technically, religions without gods are atheistic (as opposed to theistic) religions. Buddhism is one such religion.
RossInDetroit 88: Yes, I heard a guy on the radio express similar sentiments. "I don't have a special word that means I don't believe in ghosts," he said. "Why should I label my non-belief in God?"
Shane 91: It does appear to be a dying art. I liked this one, even though it does use the "if I've offended" phrasing, because a) he apologizes for something outright first, and b) in the context, it really was unclear whether anyone had taken offense.
I am constantly amused by people who claim to have certain, intimate knowledge of something completely unknowable. It gets scary when it goes from knowing to telling people they better believe.
BTW, such a non-apology...
Xopher: Thank you for the explaination. I'm going to use this for "The thing I learned today" if it comes up.
"If you are doing business with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing. His word isn't worth shit. -Not with the good lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal" -William S. Burroughs
Three people in this thread so far have identified themselves as "religious atheists" WTF is that? It would seem as much of an oxymoron as "military intelligence"...
can I get Atheist Tax Exemption?
MITCH (response to your comment, #32),
So, alot of Athiests are bad? All Athiests celebrated when Jerry Faldwell died? No. Just like even though some Muslims are bad, not all of them are. And just like some Christians forced others into their opinions doesn't mean all of them are. Just because one guy named "Mitch" placed all Athiests into one category based on a few remarks doesn't mean that all guys named "Mitch" do.
Once upon a time, there was a social rule about not discussing politics or religion. It was a good rule. Whether you're atheist or other, it's a good idea to put a sock in it unless it's clear that your intended audience wants to hear it.
The logic of that ad was just so ridiculous and faulty-- "the majority of Americans believe in god, so those of you who don't should shut up, and if you don't like it too bad because we've got 'free speech.'" Ignoring the disconnect between "free speech" and "shut up", just because a majority of Americans believe something, doesn't mean those who don't should shut up--for example the majority of Americans think we should be out of Iraq, so those of you who disagree, SHUT UP.
The majority of Americans think abortion should remain legal, so pro-lifers should SHUT UP.
The majority of Americans say they're going to vote for either Democrat over McCain, so McCain should SHUT UP.
See the problem with that logic?
But technically, religions without gods are atheistic (as opposed to theistic) religions. Buddhism is one such religion.
That's not really true for too reasons. One, many Buddhists worship Buddha and various boddhisattvas as gods. Two, more mystic Buddhists would say that God is just a common term for primordial, undifferentiated consciousness, the return to which is the goal of Buddhism.
There are, however, species of Buddhism with no Gods. Buddhism isn't alone in this. I didn't know that some Buddhists worshipped Buddha as a god. Strikes me as a bad idea, and I think the Buddha, were he alive, would laugh at them.
At any rate, there are religions that are not theistic. That's the real point.
Most religions' founders would sob if they could see their followers. Religion as a mass phenomenon tends to devolve to cult worship of one or many 'gods'. Many Buddhists pray to Buddha, as opposed to using his life as a template for self-awakening.
Thinking about it, humans commonly manifest a desire to worship a superior being, a person. It could just be an evolutionary remnant that compels us to look for the alpha member of the group.
@24: @21. He writes ad copy and can't spell distort correctly?
I did Production at a radio station for a few years and discovered that the people who write ad copy are either Sales or their clients, and with almost no exception, they all have AWFUL spelling and grammar. It sometimes looks like they don't even read it over once to correct really obvious typos. Also, they write copy that is way too long and expect you to be able to fit a minute and 20 seconds of read into one minute. And then if you want to correct their grammar, you have to get them to approve the changes you've made. And yes, it's made me a little bitter.
#100: "Once upon a time, there was a social rule about not discussing politics or religion."
And sex. Imagine that. Three of the five most important things in life banned from social discussion.
Well if there is a better thread in which to discuss religion I am not aware of it. There are religions that are not theistic? Do tell, I can't for the life of me think of one. I did a quick search and this is the best I could find atheistic religiosity. But he lists Buddhism as an example of an atheistic religion. One possibility might be pure ritual, but really, a ritual without belief is just OCD.
Atheistic Religiosity. IIRC, during one debate on school prayer, supporters said that those who opposed school prayer are Secular Humanists, Secular Humanism is a religion and therefore not talking about God in school is teaching the religion of Secular Humanism. They demanded equal time for their religions to talk about God to provide balance against Secular Humanism.
I don't know who came up with that argument, but its evil twistedness is quite impressive,
I have quite a few non-believing Jewish friends that still practice their religious ceremonies. Religion without God(s) seems to be more of a lifestyle choice than worship, à la Action vs Belief.
Re: Secular Humanism -- It was our friend Tim LaHaye in his 1980 book "The Battle for the Mind". Francis Schaefer played a part also.