White House wants easier access for FBI to internet activity logs

The Obama administration wants to make it easier for the FBI to force ISPs to turn over records of individual Internet activity without a court order if agents believe the information is relevant to a terrorism or intelligence investigation. "The administration wants to add just four words -- 'electronic communication transactional records' -- to a list of items that the law says the FBI may demand without a judge's approval. "

39 Comments Add a comment

technogeek #1 8:35 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

I have to keep reminding myself that the other ticket really was worse. Sigh.

snackcake #2 8:44 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

slowly losing my Hope™

dculberson #3 8:52 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Why?????????????????? oh so sad.

Boondocker #4 8:59 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

.- .-. .. ... . / -- --- .-. ... . / . -. - .... ..- ... .. .- ... - ... / ... - --- .--. / --- ..- .-. / .... --- ..- .-. / .. ... / .- - / .... .- -. -.. / ... - --- .--.

Phikus replied to comment from dculberson #5 9:04 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

...Because ever since the FISA bill, O's been owned.

mdh #6 9:07 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

"if agents believe the information is relevant to a terrorism or intelligence investigation"

a 'belief of relevance' held by someone looking to make news and get a promotion does not trump my right to privacy.

An appointed judges judgement does.

beerose #7 9:13 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Not to worry, I'm sure our ever-vigilant press will ask him some tough questions about this. You know, like the ladies on the View.
/Sarc

John Napsterista replied to comment from Boondocker #8 9:14 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

.... . .... / .... . .... / ... - --- .--. / .... --- .-- / -.. --- / .. / ... .- -.-- / .--. .-.. ..- ... / --- -. . / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / ... - --- .--. ..--..

Anon #9 9:16 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

But but but...

I guess when a candidate's whole platform fits into a tweet we shouldn't be surprised on what he left out.

BukaHobbit #10 9:26 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

It seems that Hope, Change and Transparency were just campaign buzz words.

johnphantom replied to comment from BukaHobbit #11 9:28 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Yep Buka, and with the only exception being that the alternative was worse (McCain & Palin) I fully regret voting for Obama.

He is a liar.

boingaddict #12 9:33 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

i yet to see a politician that is not a liar.....boooo

Phikus replied to comment from technogeek #13 9:33 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Two parties are just two few. It gives us all a military industrial complex.

imag replied to comment from Phikus #14 9:47 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

That's the whole problem with the military industrial complex though - it doesn't matter how many parties you have, you won't be able to elect someone who would dismantle it.

This is just sad. I wrote yet another letter in the whitehouse.gov contact section. That's feeling pretty futile at this point.

I swear, it seems like we have this massive problem of angst. We read horrifying stuff about our own government on a daily basis and yet there's this incredible disempowerment. I literally cannot figure out what I can do about it, other than to give money to organizations like the EFF and the ACLU.

It feels like the media, the wealth disparity, the politicians, and we the people have created a situation where we cannot fundamentally do anything. When they suspended Habeas Corpus, I thought, "we should be out in the street." But no one would go with me. When they steal our money and kill people and take our freedom - any one of these things is worth standing up against. But we have almost no mechanism to do so.

You can say I'm just whining. People can literally hunger strike themselves to death over an issue today and no one will care. This is a level of disempowerment that I think is much wider than myself. What do we do, other than talking to each other, spreading the news, and writing letters?

Please respond, but if you could refrain from flaming, I'd appreciate it.

foley #15 9:48 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

No, Gotta convince a judge, every time, no fishing. What anyone believes means nothing, not even FBI agents, let the agents make a Judge believe, that's where the line is drawn, at the judge, appointed or elected. If this becomes law then the logs ARE government documents and are subject to Freedom of Information requests. You can demand the logs yourself to see what your legislators are doing, what your local law enforcement is doing, what the FBI is doing. You can also request the history of what the FBI requests. Who watches the watchmen? Everyone watches the watchmen.

Anon replied to comment from Phikus #16 10:07 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

We already have more than two parties. Fact is, we're held captive mot by Republicans and Democrats, but by a bunch of morons who say if you vote third party you give away the election. THEY are the real problem.

Phikus replied to comment from imag #17 10:11 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

No flame needed. I totally agree, and have marched in the streets over these issues (Austin is one place where I have found others to take to the streets with me over such things.) I know it seems like we are not making much of a difference, because the media is by and large owned by it as well, but we have to continue in any way we can to make waves.

I too support the ACLU and EFF actively. We have to try to communicate the injustice we see whenever we can and plot acts of guerrilla passive resistance with humor and intelligence to wake folks up. For all the sheep that get corralled, there are many who slip through the cracks and begin to see what's going on as well. We could someday soon see a watershed moment, because we also have unprecedented access to information these days (for now.) If you are meeting too much resistance in your area, move to where you will find the like minded, or entrench yourself and keep up the fight, if you can. You will eventually win over hearts and minds if you do it with patience and compassion, and I salute you for being on the front lines of the culture war! Just don't put yourself in a position where you can burn out, as that will not serve the fight either. We all have to do what we can. I believe that someday soon we may yet see a tipping point, as this shit cannot stand forever.

Any party has the distinct possibility of being owned by special interests, but more parties in the mainstream would at least provide for a real debate over the real issues, and we wouldn't get stuck voting for the lesser evil (as often.)

ToMajorTom #18 10:16 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

It's crap like this that will lose Obama the next election. He's continuing his history of alienating some of his most vocal supporters -- geeks, nerds, bloggers, tech in general.

Not that these alienated folks will necessarily vote for his opposition in the next prez election (because Obama is still a "better" choice than whatever the Teapublicans put up), but they just simply won't vote at all. (And the same can probably be said for non-techie liberals.)

I'll vote for Obama...simply because I'd rather have Lost Hope than No Hope.

spill #19 10:17 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

How can we go about making ISP's obsolete?

Phikus replied to comment from foley #20 10:32 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

You have nailed it on the head. It has never been difficult to gain such access. Judges have almost never denied such requests, but there's that pesky paper trail left behind that provides for accountability. This is what those who seek such provisions are attempting to eliminate, it seems to me.

dculberson replied to comment from Phikus #21 10:32 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Got to agree with you there. FISA was my first political heartbreak.

@Spill: Local wireless mesh networks?

SKR #22 10:41 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

despair and continuity

spill replied to comment from dculberson #23 10:47 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

I think that's a good place to begin. The toll booths that connect the locals together could be points of worry. Some aspect of torrents could be developed perhaps, not just for file sharing, but web (mesh?) interaction as well.

Anon replied to comment from dculberson #24 11:13 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Why indeed? It's almost as if Obama had some problem with the internet recently. :(

Marcel #25 11:22 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

And to think, just a few weeks ago people were making fun of Prince.

Antinous / Moderator replied to comment from imag #26 11:34 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply
People can literally hunger strike themselves to death over an issue today and no one will care.

Well, the last regime informed us that starving yourself to death is nothing more than a publicity stunt.

imag replied to comment from Antinous / Moderator #27 11:53 AM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

That's what I mean. I read something about Ghandi a few years ago that made the case that his success with nonviolence only worked because of the British sense of propriety. The Brits, once they saw what was going on, where shocked and outraged enough to change policy.

I feel like we have lost our ability to be shocked or outraged at a societal level. Individually, many of us can get so shocked and outraged that we are just in shock. I know I, like many of us, just need to put it all aside to get anything done.

Sometimes I tell myself that this is just a part of living in a decadent society at the end of its empire. We are decadent. We would rather watch cartoons than care about the people our soldiers kill. We literally have to watch cartoons to distract ourselves from the fact that our soldiers kill, and are killed. We can't let it in. The issues themselves are outrageous. When I read the WaPo articles on secrecy, I realize that the country has long since been subverted. We are the subverters. Perhaps they are systematically too large to tackle. Trying to stop it is like shouting at the bogeyman in a dream.

Anyway, I'm making a film about the whole thing, which is the best I can do. I just feel like the disempowerment is something we need to start talking about more. We live constantly in the face of huge corporations and vastly wealthy people who actively subvert our interests. And no one wants to admit it, but we are getting increasingly powerless to do anything about it. Watching Jon Stewart doesn't fix things. Writing comments on blogs doesn't fix things. The folks at the top are getting away with the grandest corruption, murder, and theft in the history of the world, and we're all just talking about it.

The tipping point will come some day. I just hope it doesn't tip toward a Palin/Beck neo fascism...

efergus3 #28 12:01 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Well, time to renew my EFF membership and add another T-shirt to my collection.

querent replied to comment from BukaHobbit #29 12:29 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

"It seems that Hope, Change and Transparency were just campaign buzz words."

I was amazed anyone ever thought any differently. Not to be smug having been right, but the Obama campaign and the cult, popular movement behind him, was the craziest thing I'd ever seen. His policy (ie israel) was always a public matter.

SleighBoy replied to comment from spill #30 12:44 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Support net neutrality. Then all ISPs will be at the mercy of the federal government and we can finally get the "last mile" of data lines filtered and under surveillance. If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to hide!

That's a good path to make them obsolete, just let the federal government take over.

Phikus #31 1:34 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

It seems to me that we continue to be powerless because we are all too easily divided. By relying on our base fears: Fear of otherness (race, foreigners, religious and sexual preference, etc.) they have managed to convince a lot of people who are just as outraged at the corruption and invasiveness of our government that those of us who embrace or are at the very least tolerant of our differences are somehow at fault for all of this country's ills. When we collectively realize that this is all classism in disguise and people are being manipulated against their own better interests, perhaps we will see some real and lasting change.

I know, this is a tough hurdle, to say the least, but perhaps we can rally around the Bill of Rights, without preference for any one amendment over another. Then we might begin a united front to at least attack those forces that are eroding it. When you think about it, the American Revolution was really a fight against corporate interests (namely for the most part in the form of the East India Trade Co.) which the British crown was enabling to get fat off our resources. We had a similar uprising against Tammany Hall and the likes a century later, which gave birth to the first Progressive movement in this country. Many positive changes we take for granted came out of this. Lately we have been backsliding into empire. Perhaps it is time for another popular uprising, though our corporate masters are more powerful and resourceful than ever. Anybody else up for the march? At least we can spell-check their posters.

BigBearChaseMe #32 2:45 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Welcome to the New Free America!

imag replied to comment from Phikus #33 4:30 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Exactly, Phikus. I think some of the division is consumerist as well. We're so driven to find the reasons why we're different from others, why we're individual, that it makes us hard to rally.

Another issue, I think, is that revolutions tend to have a focal point. We have dozens of focal points, everyone with their own pet issue. I like the idea of focusing around the Bill of Rights, but many wouldn't. Until you start taking away people's food, they don't generally get out en masse. We really are fat sheep.

It has always seemed sad to me that the largest US demonstrations against the Iraq war only brought out about as many people as a large stadium sporting event.

A huge hurdle to face is a set of ideas implanted in our modern culture by corporations themselves:

- Passion is silly and should a sign of weak thinking
- Caring for, or about, others is socialism
- Fairness and idealism are naive and should be mocked
- Self expression and self satisfaction come from deciding which things to buy
- Profit is the only neutral good
- People who challenge the system are just disgruntled and asking for a handout
- Complexity is difficult. Difficult things are not worthwhile. Complex issues are not worth thinking about.

These ideas are insidious and are getting institutionalized. I don't know how to combat the billions of marketing dollars that have gone into pushing them into popular consciousness. I'm up to march though.

Ugly Canuck #34 4:45 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

Here's a rocking Manifesto...because the revolution's coming...I don't know where it's been...question what you see...and if you find an answer, bring it home to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OfRZ63gLgI

Everybody wants control: which means that nobody has it.

Anon #35 6:34 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

With respect to the fear of otherness comments, I'm all for us sticking together, but I think a good case can be made for opposing illegal immigration.

allowing corporations the ability to underpay workers who will not vote, and will not try to improve conditions is strategic suicide. But there are applicable lessons here, anyway.

If an ISP were started in a foreign company, but designed for American or European customers, it could be built from the ground up to obfuscate government demands- that'd also get it a guaranteed market share once word got out.
"Our Brazilian server has no legal obligation to translate 18600 pages of logs to the colorado supreme court."

The startup costs would be high, but the operation wouldn't necessarily be. The important thing is that it be legitimately run from that nation, not a shell game set up by Americans. that trick never works.

LaddyBogart replied to comment from imag #36 8:05 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

I can totally relate to this feeling of helplessness and anger. You don't know who to trust, everything can be questioned, nothing's set in concrete and you have absolutely no idea where to start, or if you should even bother.
My advice is don't let this get you down too much. Over the past two decades, (1st World) humanity has experienced an unprecedented increase in information intake.

To me, it's not so much that the world is getting any worse, it's that were beginning to see things for what they really are: screwed up half the time and always confusing. I take comfort in the fact that, for all its horrifying atrocities, the world is generally a better place now than 100 years ago.

As for the lack of activism, I'm guessing it's because almost all 1st-World citizens are relatively very well off. I'm pretty sure that if our lives were put in true jeopardy, way more of us would be hitting the streets.

Thank for letting me know I'm not the only one feeling like this.

Anon replied to comment from Anonymous #37 8:18 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

The problem is that we have two Conservative parties and a Third one on its way. We are lacking a Liberal and moderate party.

Anon #38 10:03 PM Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 Reply

One cannot consider separately the FBI’s request to obtain without warrants, Citizens’ "electronic communication transactional records" including addresses persons sent email, without also considering the affect of pending federal legislation that may pass.

For example, Sen. McCain on March 4, 2010 introduced The “Enemy Belligerent Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act of 2010.” McCain’s bill would eliminate several Constitutional protections allowing Government to arbitrarily pick up Americans on mere suspicion—with no probable cause. Your political opinions and statements made against U.S. Government could be used by Authorities to deem you a “hostile” “Enemy Belligerent” to cause your arrest and indefinite detention. Under S.3081 government may use an individual’s phone call and email information to allege without probable cause “suspicious or hostile activity against the United States or civilians to detain Americans.” U.S. activists and individuals under S.3081 would be extremely vulnerable to detention and or prosecution, if (charged with suspicion) of “intentionally providing support to an Act of Terrorism”, for example American activists can’t control what other activists might do illegally—they network with by email domestically and overseas. Government under S.3081 would need only allege an individual kept in detention, is an Unprivileged Enemy Belligerent suspected of; having engaged in hostilities against the United States; its coalition partners; or Civilians or (has) purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States; its coalition partners or U.S. civilians.

More recently Obama gave a speech in May 2010 that asked Congress to pass legislation to give the President, power to detain any person in the U.S. that government deems a “combatant” or likely to engage in a violent act in the future. President Obama wants the power to incarcerate U.S. Citizens not on evidence, but for what they might do. Obama wants the power to override the U.S. Constitution. If Obama’s proposed legislation is passed, the President will have the power to detain indefinitely any American without probable cause or evidence, based on conjecture someone might do something violent in the future.

It is problematic, if the FBI is allowed warrant-less access to Citizens’ "electronic communication transactional records" including persons’ addresses that Citizens sent email and McCain or Obama’s legislation, or similar legislation is passed, Citizens’ ’"electronic communication transactional records" will be used by the FBI and other government agencies to pick up and indefinitely detain Americans without probable cause.

See: Obama Sound-Video as for the power to detain people without probable cause at: http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/630.html

See McCain’s 12-page Senate bill S.3081 The “Enemy Belligerent Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act of 2010 at:
assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/ARM10090.pdf

mdh replied to comment from imag #39 8:28 AM Friday, Jul 30, 2010 Reply

I feel like we have lost our ability to be shocked or outraged at a societal level.

It's like someone let the FOX guard the henhouse.

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