Some people in Verona, Italy are up in arms about a nativity scene at their local courthouse in which Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are depicted as dark-skinned people. Interestingly, it was chief public prosecutor Mario Giulio Schinaia's idea to do this based on historical evidence that baby Jesus was in fact likely to have had darker skin. Verona has strong links to the Northern League party, a political entity allied with PM Silvio Burlusconi that is strongly anti-immigration — the League is in the midst of a two-month initiative, called White Christmas, in which they hope to "ferret out foreigners without proper permits in Coccaglio, a small League-led town east of Milan". They've also advocated for separate buses and trains for immigrants, banning new mosques, and getting rid of all Chinese and kebab restaurants in the towns where they have the most influence.
Image via howieluvzus' Flickr
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"ferret out foreigners without proper permits in Coccaglio, a small League-led town east of Milan". They've also advocated for separate buses and trains for immigrants, banning new mosques, and getting rid of all Chinese and kebab restaurants in the towns where they have the most influence."
Wow, nice way to demonstrate that Christian compassion I've heard so much about in church.
Why do people expend so much effort to hating, and being generally against stuff, when they could put it all into being nice to each other?
I used to be catholic (well, technically I still am, you never really leave), but I'm a strong atheist now. But even I get really narked by stuff like this. Everything in the important bit of the new testament (you know the stuff with the Jesus dude in) is about caring for other, turning the other cheek, being tolerant, all that kind of stuff. But that seems to be the bit that people like to ignore in favour of random letters from St Paul, or anachronistic bits from the old testament.
Sigh. Now I'm mister grumpy-pants.
Have they not seen how much spray tan Berlusconi wears?
Man, I've seen this, it was an episode of Good Times, where JJ painted a Black Jesus. The world didn't end then, either.
Hey, Northern League! Jesus was a great many things, but let me tell you one thing he was not: Italian. Get over it.
Getting rid of all the Chinese and kebab restaurants? Egads! These people have no taste.
They do know that Jesus of Nazareth was Jewish, don't they? And he tended to get a lot of sun exposure with all that walking about?
Isn't it likely that he looked something like today's Palestinians.
I think it's official folks. We are cycling back to a more nationalist, xenophobic period in our Western history.
Saying "never again" does nothing but perpetuate a lie.
oh and @Paul: You rock. I like what you said.
Does anybody else find it ironic that WOP purportedly is an acronym for With Out Papers/Permits? Just spitballin' here.
Arguments about what color Jesus was are kind of funny. Sure he was born in modern day Israel and was a Jew. It would be too simple to believe he had a prominent nose, dark brown hair, a jewfro and a moderate tan like other Jews from the area.
No that would mean that a whole lot of people would pray to someone obviously Jewish and we can't have that.
Personality, if I had to choose, I'd say that Jesus was actually a psychoactive mushroom.
Not so fair Verona...
amiright?
And, really, what says "Christmas" more than anti-immigration Know-Nothing rabble-rousing? (Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly take note.)
When do the Northern League start wearing their Black Shirts? Here I thought the Italians on MTV's "Jersey Shore" were idiots. Now I know where most of their ancestors are from.
I'm thinking that people who argue about the color of Yeshua's skin might be missing the point.
my wife and i travelled to verona for our honeymoon. we were shocked by the amount of fascist graffiti that we encountered. of all the cities we visited, we found verona to be the most blatantly racist.
First they're all uptight about Montagues and Capulets, and now this?
Yesyerite, Blaine.
"evidence that baby Jesus was in fact likely to have had darker skin."
Darker than what?
You could say Italians tend to have darker skin, too. Darker than mine at any rate.
But wording aside, absolute rubbish, this reaction. Some people might prefer to see a more traditional (and what this means varies from country to country!!) depiction of a Nativity scene, but in this day and age we've got people of all colours all over the place, so throwing a fit like that is just inappropriate.
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word,
As I hate hell, all Model Jews, and thee!"
With apologies to Tybalt (Act I Scene i).
speak for yourself.
I fail to see how getting rid of all of a town's Chinese restaurants makes it a more desirable community. If my city got rid of Chinese food, I'd move and never come back. Ditto for kebabs.
It's probably fair to just call them bigots and not conservatives. That behavior is more fitting of the former term than it is the latter.
Is there a "Chief Prosecutor Fan Club" for Mario Giulio Schinaia? 'Cause I wanna join!
Also, if you look closely at the photo of the Verona Nativity scene, you'll notice that the poses, the details, the style of the figures, etc. are all very traditionally Italian. Only the skin tones of the Holy Family have been changed. It's really a lovely example of healthy cultural syncretism: celebrate and affirm the traditional culture, while making the newcomer feel included and welcomed.
I think the City of Verona should give Avv. Schinaia some kind of "True Spirit of Christmas" award. The world needs more people like him.
I guess now it's less of a mystery how Berlusconi keeps getting elected.
'Some say rice is white, others say rice is brown. Some think christ is white, others think he is brown.'
-akron/family
It's ok. Those of us from Rome or south of that don't even believe that people that far north are even Italian. They sure has heck don't want to be associated with the peasants in the rest of Italy. Racist schmucks.
@CastanhasDoPara: "Does anybody else find it ironic that WOP purportedly is an acronym for With Out Papers/Permits? Just spitballin' here."
I... don't quite see how that's ironic, since "wops" refers to Italians who have immigrated to the states, hence "without papers" (which is probably a false etymology anyway). Not everything is about America -- some Italians actually live in Italy.
Just today I was looking at my Italian great-grandfather's ship manifest from Ellis Island. It was stamped with a big "NON IMMIGRANT ALIEN". Apparently the guy with the stamp was wrong, because we're still here.
Sad that a people so discriminated against as emigrants now aims to discriminate against immigrants to their country.
"Grrr! You're worshiping god all wrong!!"
Jesus could possibly has been black since some black people were leaving in the region at the time. However he was most likely Arabic.
Caucasians were living far north at this time and a Caucasians looking Jesus was very unlikely.
Who care anyway beyond the historic interest.
Um... SamSam, I direct you to the comment below yours by Naufragio (thanks BTW). And also the word "purportedly" in my post might have given you some indication that the "folk" etymology I referred to was just that. And since you like to be all technical, in this folk etymological sense WOP would indicate ILLEGAL immigration, hence the idea of with out papers. Legal immigrants, in theory, would not qualify for WOP status and neither would ALL Italians ESPECIALLY those still living in Italy. Geez man, lighten up. And for the record, as far as I'm concerned all Italians live in Italy, people of Italian descent that are citizens of the United States are United States-ers. (American is just such a misused word.)
Right, that was MY point: that "wops" refers to illegal/non-illegal/whatever immigrants in the states.
Why would Italians in Italy care about what some Americans call their emigrated ex-patriots? The word doesn't have anything to do with them. So what would be ironic about it?
Anyway, this is all besides the point. We can agree that the jerks in Verona are jerks, and that the Lega del Nord is the most racist scum-bag excuse for a political party in existence, and the fact that they have any power is a stain on Italy. My personal theory is that the Alps breed weird people.
Can't we get these angered conservatives on North American television? I'd like to see what the ultra-right-wing pundits would have to say about it. I'm not saying that Glenn Beck would be for the overtly segregationist and racist policies of these people.. I'm just ASKING.
Ian, I'm not sure I'd want to go there. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that segregation was officially removed from the southern states, and racism still runs rampant down there. The last thing we need is to start feeding more racist, segregationist propaganda to the sheep who watch that right-wing bullshit. O'Reilly and Beck are bad enough without people like Burlusconi.
@ SamSam:
"Those of us from Rome or south of that don't even believe that people that far north are even Italian. They sure has heck don't want to be associated with the peasants in the rest of Italy. Racist schmucks."
"We can agree that the jerks in Verona are jerks"
"My personal theory is that the Alps breed weird people."
aren't you generalizing a little? We are not racists.
The Northern League has done lots of good things in Italy. Federalism, firstly.
I've been following this blog for a while now, and I can say you tend to be a little superficial about news.
"a political entity allied with PM Silvio Burlusconi that is strongly anti-immigration"
Northern league is NOT against immigration.
It's against ILLEGAL immigration.
That also means UNCONTROLLED immigration, which, FYI, is a huge problem in Italy, especially in the north.
That's why I say you're superficial. very often, especially when talking about Italy and foreign countries, you make things simple, but you don't even try to investigate a little in order to understand if what you claim is completely true, first of all, and secondly what's behind the appearances.
Talking about being superficial, it's BERLUSCONI, not Burlusconi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord#Controversies
Yup, nothing to see here. Just federalism.
Again, superficiality: looking at the sources, all the controversy section comes from left and far-left newspapers... obviously not neutral.
you also "forgot" to read and mention the counter-criticism section:
"The first black mayor in Italy belongs to the League[...]".
"After more than 15 years of government by Lega Nord, the Province of Treviso is widely considered the place in Italy where immigrants are best integrated"
stai scherzando vero?
Il troll ovvio è ovvio? :-)
hah, sicuro. nemmeno la Berlusca crede a 'sta merda.
"Il troll ovvio è ovvio? :-)" Ha ha! Ma sfortunatamente, c'è gente che crede proprio questo...
Enrico, I'm sorry for generalizing about Northeners above. Bur in fairness, my comment that "the jerks in Verona are jerks" is by definition true, although a logical tautology and so not perhaps very interesting.
So anyway, do you really not believe that Bossi called Africans "bingo-bongos?"
I do believe he said that... and except for the blatant language he used, I also agree with him.
translation of what Bossi, Northern League secretary, said: "there are no tenement houses for immigrants, there are already 42000 people waiting for a house. houses go first to lombardy people, not to the just arrived bingo bongo"
Well, yes. Thank you for giving us an example of exactly what we mean by racist supporters of the Lega.
Maybe they could pass some laws banning minarets as well, like their Swiss neighbors...
Whr's th rcsm n gvng prrty t wh s lrdy wtng?!? thnk tht s clld "qng".
ps: Thnk y mdrtr fr cncllng my ccnt, ths s trly fr spch blg.
nrc
troll is back.
"I do believe he said that... and except for the blatant language he used, I also agree with him"
blatant language? well i guess that as long as federalism goes on as planned they can set those damn nggrs on fire. that's the spirit.
as for being banned you should not protest. your favorite leader routinely fires journalists for speaking their opinions. so despite his blatant language you agreed with that too when you voted for him. suits you just fine.
@enrico: I expect that the moderator realized there was only enough room on this blog for Americans, not the just-arrived bingo-bongos from Italy...
(j/k....)
@SamSam
lei e' un comunista.
Srry gys, ws wrng.
Th Nrthrn lg prty s rcst prty.
ctlly jst rlzd tht, dspt nt bng mmbr f th Nrthrn lg, m rcst, t.
nd trll (my prvs, rrgnt, dscrmntng psts clrly prv t).
thnks fr mkng m rlz tht.
Nw, tgthr wth th Jrks n Vrn, cn g st sm mmgrnts n fr. (jz, shld hv dn t lng tm g!)
wll st fr ls n sm psnts frm th sth, snc m "rcst schmck", cmng frm "th wrd lps brd", nt wrthy f th tln pssprt, s SmSm rghtly dfnd my ppl.
Cn y blv tht thght ws th n bng dscrmntd hr?
nly bcs ws bnnd frm ths wbst fr xprssng my (myb wrng) pnn nd bng clld, wrd, nn-tln, rcst schmck.
Wht n dt.
Thnk y gys, y tght m TLRNC.
Dn't wrry, wn't b bck.
ha ha ha che kaiser, ti offendi per cosi' poco. e' difficile parlare con gente che non ha subito il lavaggio di cervello della Berlusca, vero? purtroppo la lega e' indiffendibile fuori dall'Italia.
Jesus obviously looked like Tom from Facebook. It's a fact. And Tom is light skinned (except when he goes to the Jersey shore for the summer.
Much ado about nothing!
www.dirtyjacky.com
My relatives come from Sicily and parts of Southern Italy. I guess these people wouldn't like them either, since many of them are about as dark-skinned as the people in the nativity scene. In some of our old photographs, all you can see are people's eyes (and teeth if they're smiling)! Oh wait! Lega Nord doesn't like southerners either!
I'm always suspicious of any political group that makes prejudice against foreigners and immigrants part of its policies. Usually, this is done to secure power through the easy route of pointing fingers at outsiders, so that a group can get its supporters to ignore it's own wrongdoings, and be more ready and willing to turn on outsiders, people with different beliefs, or even their own members who are not "loyal enough."
I'm sad to see this sort of behavior in my own country, the USA, and it also makes me sad to see it in the country of my ancestors.
But then, this group believes that the people of southern and central italy aren't really their countrymen, apparently.
For the record, Enrico, I do apologize for the over-generalization of people from the North, even though they widely voted for the provably evil party, just like I would apologize if I over-generalized people from Texas, even though they widely voted for Bush. Obviously not everyone in the North is like Bossi.
The whole "not-Italian" thing, by the way, is because the LN has clearly always wanted to secede from Italy. It's they who want to leave. I guess they would be happier in their own Aryan country with none of the darker-skinned people from the South?
I've read that the historical Aryans (the people of the Rig Veda) were almost certainly brown-skinned, and probably hook-nosed. Today many (perhaps most) anthropologists believe that they were a primarily a cultural/religious grouping, secondarily a language group, and not a racial group at all. Because of the misuse of the term, it's becoming more popular to refer to proto-indo-iranians or proto-indo-europeans rather than Aryans.
However, after long years of observation, I have concluded that racists just aren't any good at anything that requires analytical thought, such as research, history, or science.
I am an American living in Verona, and I'm sure I'm over-reacting to this superficial, silly, and wholly inaccurate little blurb about Verona and the northern Italian right wing nutjobs. No one here, to my knowledge, is up-in-arms about a dark-skinned Jesus. There are nativity scenes here from all over the world and the depictions vary with the source. It's all part of the fabulous festive atmosphere in this beautiful city, and the place is packed with visitors, all of whom look happy. The fact that there are some racists and nuts in every locale has nothing to do with this wonderful place. See Verona for yourself: everything works, the people are wonderful, it's clean, and it's incredibly civilized. This place is magical. No one is for ferreting out anyone except criminals, maybe, and no one I know has ever advocated anything so evil or stupid as separate trains for immigrants. Perhaps this is just a silly attempt to smear anyone on the right with silly positions that no one really advocates, just to make anyone who isn't a supporter of the left seem like a fascist. This place is fabulous, trust me. Come and see for yourself. They're so ridiculously polite that you feel you have to say "Buon giornio" to everyone you pass, just not to seem ill-mannered. A very friendly, very civilized place, and yes, also quite conservative. But preserving good values is a good thing, isn't it?
American_in_Verona said everything has to be said on this topic and the news is not that "new" anymore and my english is bad...so I probably should avoid any further comment, but really I need to underline the incoerency (stupidity?) of comment like the one of SamSam. For her (him?) all the northern italians are not italians but... they are the racist! Why? Because they make a nativity wiht black people. What should we say about her? She is from Rome, when they tried to burn alive Gipsies and threwn bombs at gay discos this last summer (not to mention the antisemitism). But we do not say anything, we don't mix the good with the bad we "non facciamo di tutta l'erba un fascio". Why ? We are not racist, we are open minded even if we're sorry not to be like in her stereotypes.