From: Simon EdhousePlease design a logo for me. With pie charts. For free. (Thanks, Fipi Lele!)
Date: Monday 16 November 2009 2.19pm
To: David Thorne
Subject: Logo DesignHello David,
I would like to catch up as I am working on a really exciting project at the moment and need a logo designed. Basically something representing peer to peer networking. I have to have something to show prospective clients this week so would you be able to pull something together in the next few days? I will also need a couple of pie charts done for a 1 page website. If deal goes ahead there will be some good money in it for you.
Simon
From: David Thorne
Date: Monday 16 November 2009 3.52pm
To: Simon Edhouse
Subject: Re: Logo DesignDear Simon,
Disregarding the fact that you have still not paid me for work I completed earlier this year despite several assertions that you would do so, I would be delighted to spend my free time creating logos and pie charts for you based on further vague promises of future possible payment. Please find attached pie chart as requested and let me know of any changes required.Regards, David.
Freelancer vs cheap client: please design me a logo, with pie charts, for free
64 Comments
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This so wonderful. Thank-you for posting it.
Sadly enough this is probably not made up. Been there.
See also: any "##PLEASE HELP ME##" ad on craigslist.
I doubt it's fake...
http://twitter.com/simonedhouse
that's got the picture that's up on the 27b/6 page and the location is right for David. Wow. Hilarious either way, but cold with the name and photo. (Hilariously cold.)
I've seen this type of thing a few times while doing some freelance in my early days. It's amazing how many people think Design is a free service or that it's easy to whip up a logo for a brand "in your free time".
I find logo and identity projects to be one of the more labor intensive services as a designer.
Today everyone thinks you can throw together a logo, build a website and setup an e-commerce site like it's no big deal.
I heart David Thorne.
lmfao!
Sounds about right. Definitely worth looking at this if you're the last designer on Earth who hasn't been sent it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfprIxNfCjk
(NSFW audio)
Having said that just this morning I had a client ask to pre-pay sometime to avoid lots of smaller invoices. That's got to be a first.
Dude I love this. Too Funny. Two drops of pee came out.
http://dynamic.boingboing.net/cgi-bin/mt/mt-cp.cgi?__mode=view&blog_id=1&id=109603
Same guy?
Reminds me of this, which is equally hilarious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfprIxNfCjk
More language warning!!!
Totally happens all the time to me. Now it's: "I've got this great idea and I need you to write the business plan, including all our strategy, and come up with some marketing ideas and a logo for the venture. It'll be your sweat equity. How soon can you have that done?" And I'm supposed to define the "strategy" as well. Not buying it.
To the person that said "This happens less and less now that everyone has access to PSD, etc." Huh? Nope. Actually happens all the time. As a designer this has always been a point of frustration. Everybody has access to pencils and pens also... but not everyone can utilize one to illustrate or design something of marketable value.
I encountered the same clients in real estate.
"I'm an investor. I want to buy a property that will make me a million dollars in two years. My FICO score is 300, I've had two bankruptcies and a foreclosure in the last decade, I need a 120% loan so that I can also buy a boat. I want to see every property in my price range, so you'd better book every afternoon this week to drive me around. By the way, I read this book on investing and I want you to read it too, so that we're on the same page."
At least the crappy design clients didn't crash the world housing market.
#13 . if u think all u need to do graphic design is photoshop, then you'd be best employing a designer to do you work, because there is alot more to graphic design than a basic knowledge of photoshop.
but yes, as a designer I have people approach me often with this kind of attitude, & i've learnt simply to laugh & explain that this is my primary source of income & that I am unable to work for free.
That pie chart is fantastic... I'd love a t-shirt of it.
If you're doing anything freelance, and someone needs to utilize your skill set, it's up to you to bring up the unfortunate matter of the bill, every time. They never will.
This is fantastic!
I thoroughly recommend that people follow the link and read the series of emails that ensued. Very funny indeed.
No one would ever say this:
"Hello Plumber,
I would like to catch up as I am working on a really exciting dinner party at the moment and need my sink repaired. Basically just need to have it spout water without leaking. I have prospective clients coming to the party this week so would you be able to patch it together in the next few days? I will also need you to take a look at the toilet. If deal goes ahead there will be some good money in it for you. "
Simon's most recent tweet: Gee, some people are very twisted and sad... Quite interesting to be cyber-defamed. I hope most people realise this guy has mental problems
Rule Number One - Don't poke trolls.
Rule Number Two - Don't poke trolls who troll people then create popular web sites about their trolling.
Rule Number Three - Always use professional language in business email, even if you're pissed off.
That should cover it.
I can has link to John Scalzi's blog entry about why no, he can't write something for you for free? :D
Computer folks are notorious for not understanding how to bring up the "money" talk.
Be brave, name your rate, write a contract agreement, have the customer sign off, then do the work agreed upon, send an invoice, and follow up with reminders that you need to be paid for your work.
Regarding clients (or their assitants) rendering designs in some generic graphics software for designers to work from.
I've been placed in this situation before, working for a PR firm, who did not provide Photoshop or Illustrator because design was a tiny, tiny part of the service, and usually outsourced.
When they found out I could design stuff, they obviously wanted me to do it (cheaper) but not provide the right tools (more expensive). I ended up using GIMP and some awful Serif package, and I still cringe to think what the designers at the design+print firms we used thought of me.
Oh yes I know this one. Because I am currently in it >_>
Perhaps the best part is that Simon is apparently a BoingBoing member: http://dynamic.boingboing.net/cgi-bin/mt/mt-cp.cgi?__mode=view&blog_id=1&id=109603#profile-recent-actions
thank you, makes me feel good inside. thank you.
http://www.naymz.com/simon_edhouse_864677
NOTE: to all those who might have visited here in relation to a posting by David Thorne, David's story is quite untrue... David is a very angry man, and has a lot of problems. Its quite ironic actually, because I would be quite happy to pay David well for his graphic design, as he is a very good designer and we have the funds to pay him. (the account he has given of our dealings is fictitious) However, David would prefer to slander and defame and make up this kind of silly nonsense. - I have always liked David, but as I said, he has some serious personal issues.
Too funny, but I doubt its real (although I do think pricks like this guy are out there, recently had an experience with someone like that but in programming not designing.)
Variety artist v TV producer tends to look about the same
I Love the Logo!
As to the situation, <Application of tired "Been there, done that." cliche here>
This is why I stopped doing graphic design for anyone but churches and family. They pay, on time. I had a client who wanted a simple two color brochure based on a brochure someone else had done for her years ago. I did a rough, made an estimate, got approval and 50% down. I made it up, sent a proof. My contract always states that I will make corrections to any errors I make free, but author's alterations are at time and a half (first time) and double time for all after the second proof. She decided to remake the entire brochure: rewrite all the text, rearrange some art, create new art, go to full color, bleeds, etc. I wrote her a revised quote, forgetting to ask for 50% of the increased cost. She approved, in writing. I did the alterations, creating a second proof. She liked it, but thought the printing costs were too high, wanted to go back to two color, no bleeds, but the same design. Again, new estimate based on double time for the alterations... approved in writing. Third proof: okay, but the simpler design of the first proof worked better with the two color no bleed concept. She now wanted the original design with the newest text (3rd revision) and latest art. New estimate, again approved. The $500 design had ballooned to nearly $5000. Did the work, and she went to print from the proofs. I billed for the final estimate, and was told the $250 she gave me up front was all I'd get.
Seems she showed my bill and the final proof (only) to another designer at a cocktail party. He told her he'd do it for $1500, not the $4850 I billed. She figured I was screwing her and she had enough.
I confronted the designer (he had worked for me at an ad agency where I was creative director). He told me I had overcharged her. I showed him the job, and all four proofs and my approved estimates. He then told me (and later her) that he would have charged her more than $10,000 for the complete job... but he and I put out the word on her. Her business went belly up in less than a year, before she paid what small claims court ordered her to pay me. Seems she cheated everyone, including her (investor) husband.
No one understands graphic design billing other than another designer, and then, they, too, often gets it wrong.
A good way of spotting the time wasting imbecile, apart from evasiveness about fees is that they usually have some kind of inchoate notion of what they would do if you weren't doing it.
If they start talking about the golden section, just back away.
Back in the twentieth century the aforesaid imbecile usually had some bizarre obsession with matching the 'web palette' ie 256 colours with printed material, or putting blue lines under type for print, to show how groovy and webrelated it was.
grumpy designers will probably enjoy this then
http://clientsfromhell.tumblr.com/
Virtusoft sounds an awful lot like Virtucon, the evil organization from the Austin Powers movies.. Could the estimable Simon Edhouse actually be ... DOCTOR EVIL?!?!?!?!
"NOTE: to all those who might have visited here in relation to a posting by David Thorne, David's story is quite untrue... David is a very angry man, and has a lot of problems. Its quite ironic actually, because I would be quite happy to pay David well for his graphic design, as he is a very good designer and we have the funds to pay him. (the account he has given of our dealings is fictitious) However, David would prefer to slander and defame and make up this kind of silly nonsense. - I have always liked David, but as I said, he has some serious personal issues."
Yup. If I was a tool looking for a free ride, that is pretty much exactly how I would spin it too, after being called out in public. Yup. that's it, exactly.
An interview with David Thorne about his (very funny) website.
The article is a bit old, but worth reading. Apparently the exchanges are all true, but we only have his word on that. The spider email mentioned in the interview is genius by the way.
First of all, any "designer" using photoshop for logotype development is not a designer you want to hire.
Second, clients and designers both should know that doing spec work like this is very much against the rules and guidelines of not just the Graphic Artists Guild (GAG), but also the AIGA, ATypI, SOTA, and the Typesetters' Union. In fact, anyone except student members can be rejected from membership if they have a reputation for doing spec work - it demeans the entire profession and basically shoots your own career and that of your colleagues in the foot.
My feeling is that it's probably a heavily satirized re-interpretation of an actual experience with Edhouse, but, regardless of whether Thorne's exchange is true, accusing people of having mental or emotional problems in public (which Edhouse did even more severely in an earlier Tweet that he's since deleted) is a sure sign that you're a total douchebag.
I got a renewed respect for graphic artists ever since I created a logo for a friend (in my spare time- implicitly for free). It's not easy work, and it is incredibly time consuming. I have the "tools" such as they are as well. (Remember there was an age before CAD/CAM and we still had brochures.) It's still a tremendous leap from amateur artist to creating logos and print materials. It's not for the love either, logo design can be a pretty insipid process, depending.
Horrible, Vibro. Just horrible. But oh so typical. I think you were working with a "dunce." You should have had a red flag from square one. Second, you should have stopped her and made perfectly clear what it would cost for a brazillion revisions, EVEN if she had agreed to the costs on paper or in a previous conversation. Everything I do on spec is, "OK, sure, but it's going to be [this] much work to do what in your mind looks like a tiny, miniscule request, so why don't we just *not* do that, eh?"
I believe this 100%. Never work on spec. Real clients pay. It's normal for the person to ask you to do something, but your first response should always be something like, "that sounds like an interesting project; here's what I usually charge for that..." If they are serious, they'll either accept or start getting into negotiation. Jokers will reply "thanks for the info; I'll let you know" and go off to bother someone else.
And this isn't just designers. I no longer do any research-related work unless I'm paid (a lot) or I get my name on the paper as a co-author. None of this "I have this great idea for a paper, but I don't know how to do even the basic design of such a study; could you do all that for me, plus the analyses, plus explain to me what they mean? It won't take much of your time, and I'll get a PhD out of it." No thanks; pay up or piss off.
Jason, I had worked with her before. She understood my pricing exactly. After the job was ready, she went nuts, taking the proofs (rather than the digital files) directly to a bad printer (a franchise) and printed the job. Then she went to the party and received the completely uninformed assessment from a guy who should have known better. This was the first time she stiffed me, and I and everyone else who had been working with her got the idea that she was going broke spending her husband's money and selling nothing.
To change the subject slightly, I'm also a musician. I suspect everyone in the arts (lively, fine, writing, whatever) gets idiots who want your work for free, "knowing" that because you do a gig for nothing that somehow someone else will like you enough to hire you. I think we've all played that gig once, and none of us has ever gotten a paying gig from doing it -- ever.
This is from the guy who did the spider prank?
Maybe I'm missing something, but knowing that he wastes people's time for lulz doesn't really make me think this guy is cool, nor believe that exchange between him and Simon Edhouse really happened.
Of course, on their own the emails sound painfully true.
I LOLed at the "Time Machine" part and the smart "peer-to-peer logo".
This guy is pure gold on sarcasm. I love it.
Oh this sort of thing goes all the way to the top. A fortnight ago, the company I work for dropped a contract with a large Hollywood based company that has fanboys on BB. After months of due diligence, pre-design, etc, they dropped the bombshell that since they owned the IP, we were supposed to do the design, development, production and shipping to their warehouses, all for the chance to have our name right below theirs! And if the product was a hit, we *might*, if we were very lucky, even get a *paying* contract from them afterwards! For some strange reason we weren't willing to pay $15 million for this, so they're badmouthing us to other companies and defying us to take them to court over it.
Meanwhile, we just laid off the 20 people who were going to be working on this project.
Reminds me of this one:
http://businessguysonbusinesstrips.com/art/family_friends.jpg
... I just love the inclusion of both 'None' and the suburb 'Fuck All'
:)
HA! I'm going through the same thing, where a TV production company in India wants me to write the scripts for an entire TV series - and then they'll decide if they want to pay me or not.
The insanity continues here: http://pitchbibles.blogspot.com
I'll be happy to do the logo and pie chart for free. But you'll get what you pay for ... I'm no designer. :)
Seriously, I don't believe this is 100% real. For one thing, we only hear one side of the story. I don't even know if David is a real designer. If I was a designer who is approached for more free work, by the same client who's already owing me fees from past work, I'll just write back "sorry, I'm unable to do more work for you as you still owe me $x from the last job". I will not engage in this silly exchange, which hardly enhances the reputation of either side.
Regardless of whether it destroys Simon's reputation as a client, many people will stay away from David as well. They might be thinking "if I get into a dispute with this guy in the future, it will be a disaster."
Regardless of this guy's professional credentials, as Victor (#44) says, he's a genius with sarcasm.
PMSL : D
Sadly, this is what design has become on anything other than the living-in-cloud-city-with-the high-end-clients level. Local businesses and start-ups are rife with "entrepreneurs" who expect you to do your work for free (or nearly so) because, as they put it, "You do it for the fun of it, right?"
And, I actually agree with the idea that the ubiquity of Photoshop (and other software) among the civilians has made this sort of thing more common. I recently worked on a print job where the marketing manager did her own layouts in...Powerpoint.
I find this kind of unfortunate. These days, almost anyone can do this kind of work, and plenty of amateurs can (and will) do professional level stuff for free.
It's a pet peeve for me, though. I'm pretty sick of the posts (in similar vein) on reddit and digg that come down to "I'm not getting paid for two-minute-coding-job X, and it sucks, because X should cost three thousand dollars" too.
Now, mind you, I'm not claiming people should be held to quality work or anything for free, but it's gotten pretty ridiculous. I'll do projects for people for free if they interest me; if they cease to interest me, I cease to work on them.
"I'd love to do the work. This is my rate...."
Oh, I believe it. These are the kinds of people that a diligent sales force will screen out.
I was lead engineer on a project to build a laser micromachining system for a customer who had insisted on a fixed-price contract. As soon as the ink was dry, they started moving the goalposts. "Oh, we assumed we'd get that too." "This thing (that we never talked about) isn't the way we want it."
And my favorite: "You can do this, it's trivial."
One of the mantras of our company was "customer satisfaction", so we did our best, making changes, additions, lots of work that we didn't charge for, all in an attempt to gain the customer's trust and build a relationship.
It was totally futile- the customer had no trust to give.
After months of nitpicking by their wildly pedantic PhD, we got the system signed off and delivered- but the requests for changes kept coming. Stuff they hadn't paid for, stuff they hadn't asked for, stuff contradicting their original specifications, stuff they didn't even need but were using as bargaining chips to try to get perpetual support and upgrades- for free.
Finally we had to turn our attention to other projects and canceled our support (per the terms of the original contract). We walked away from a lot of our good work, knowing that they would probably be showing off our system to their customers and telling them how bad our service had been.
Our lesson? The customer pays or the work stops.
"I would be quite happy to pay David well for his graphic design, as he is a very good designer and we have the funds to pay him. (the account he has given of our dealings is fictitious) However, David would prefer to slander and defame and make up this kind of silly nonsense"
If he was willing to pay David then why would David choose to slander and defame him? What would David's motivation be? At least David's accusations make sense.
"David is a very angry man, (with H.A.T.E. self-tattooed on his knuckles) and has many problems."
It seems that Simon is the one personally slandering in a hateful way. David has tattoos! David has many personal problems!
My 2 cents.
"If he was willing to pay David then why would David choose to slander and defame him? What would David's motivation be?"
To be funny? Check out all the other stuff on his website, it really doesn't spell out a nice person. A funny, clever, witty person, but one who makes his jokes at the expense of others.
Why do people on Jackass put stuff up their bums?
"Why do people on Jackass put stuff up their bums?"
I have no idea!
"To be funny?"
Why use real names then? I can believe he exaggerated his account of the situation, but I think he was exaggerating a real scenario to accentuate the humor, unlike the hateful personal slander that Simon posted.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't actually know and am only guessing based on what I've read here.
Most of David's exchanges take the form of someone harassing him for money and him taking the piss.
Pretty much all of these I can believe. This last one I can believe as well, simply because there are plenty of douchetards out there that will expect designers to work for free and this Simon guy certainly comes across like one of them.
The day a client STOLE a logo I'd designed for him on spec and refused to discuss the issue of payment because I'd "done it for free" was the day I got the fuck out of the graphic design business.
"Why use real names then?"
Because he's mean-spirited? Look, I don't know anything about the guy except that he has a rather rude website that starts out by flipping me the bird and turns out to be filled with accounts of him being rude to people. I don't know whether any of the stories are true,whether all of these people were scammers, or if he is the cranky villain of the piece and really did owe some of them money. But when I look at the way he presents himself online, I have trouble taking him seriously. The supposed idiot client on the other hand doesn't do anything in particular to impress me, but he is already up a point above Thorne because he doesn't introduce himself as someone who yanks people's chains for kicks.
It's dangerous to generalize, but I have done web sites for two real estate guys who each expected a) a fixed price, b) insisted on multiple, after-the-fact changes as part of the fixed price, c) had an idea for a universal website which was to be a general-purpose "money-making machine" (you can't make this stuff up), d) refused to sign binding legal agreements, and/or threatened to spread gossip about my professional practice.
One wanted to spam people, and the other invited me to lunch, suggested we split a burger "because they are so big" (it wasn't), and then, having wasted another 1 1/2 of my life, drove off in his Porche Turbo.
Graphic Design is a funny business. You can be the best designer in the world but if you have an, uh, un-savvy client, what's the point.
I know this guy who was tasked with designing a new logo for Gate Petroleum. He worked real hard on about 15 logos, threw in another 10 that were borderline, and roughed up another 5 the morning of the meeting. Here's the one they chose: http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Gatelogo_160x158.PNG
It was one he had sketched on a napkin in the car that morning. They saw it and said, "Hey! It's a gate. We're called Gate and there's a gate on it! We like that one."
The spider e-mail exchange was funny. All of the rest of them are variations on the same thing, and less funny every time, regardless of how true they are.
I have read the comments above, and will respond to the satire on David's site in due course in a blog piece of my own to shed some light on what drives Mr. Thorn to come up with stuff like this. ~ I had some immediate reactions and responses to what happened, and some of those reactions were based on my complete disbelief at what I was witnessing. I have made some simple statements about my position, but it seems more is required. I am happy to do that, but I will do so carefully... mainly because David has been a friend for many years and there is a lot more to this than people realise. - Just re-reading David's piece, I had to laugh myself, because its so silly. The last time David did a logo for me was actually back in October 2005, when he designed the virtusoft logo just before I incorporated the Company (I just checked) and yes he did it very cheaply, because we were mates, and I paid him immediately. - I have never asked David to design a "pie-graph", and I don't owe him any money. (this recent event seems to have been triggered by me asking him a few weeks ago not to contact me) - In case people haven't realised, this is all David's way of having fun. (as per the email I received from him last Friday, (the day after this began), responding to a comment I made on Twitter :
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
From: David Thorne
Subject: /
Date: 27 November 2009 1:44:37 PM ACDT
To: Simon Edhouse
@FxNxRl LOL... Alan, yes strangely, I making a lot of new acquaintences/friends through this silly episode.. a fascinating soap opera.
Thats the game. Admit it, you are having fun.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To David this is an exciting and hilarious game. Trouble is, to the many people (often his friends) he tries to humiliate with these "games", it is not terribly funny.
(I posted a similar comment to this on bloggerheads)
"hateful personal slander"... how weird the world is. If I reacted with abrupt horror, and said WTF?, please understand that the whole email sequence on David's site was concocted by him. i.e. not exagerated, but COMPLETELY invented. Further, in the side bar he has made comments about my work which are fictitious and ridiculous. (David wrote a warm recommendation about that period on my Linkedin page which I deleted when we had a falling out) ...and seriously, what he has done is trigger lots of people's hatred for sleeze bags that use designers and don't pay them. But, actually, the last time David did a logo for me was in 2005, and I certainly do not owe him any money.
'redesigned' ... David's accusations "make sense", and my reactions are harsh and slanderous. - David's accusations only make sense because he is triggering a stereotyped meme of the 'bad commercial guy, ripping off the designer, and it is almost inconceivable as to why someone would do that unprovoked, right? Yep, and this is his best defense, the implausibility of him being insincere. - But look into his site, and look at how he has ridiculed and degraded his co-workers, like "Shannon" who picked him up when he was down, rented a house for him, when he couldn't get even that act together. Shannon prepared his pay cheque every 2 weeks for more than 7 years. Look how he degrades her... He has ruthlessly degraded other's in that business, Gina, Lil, Lucius and even his boss Thomas... and you know what? They are all too terrified of him to do anything about it.