B&H, the photo and video gear company much-loved by photogs and filmmakers worldwide, is in hot water over employment discrimination claims - again. Four women claim they were denied sales positions because of their gender. According to reports I'm seeing, there are historically no female sales staff at B&H? Also: earlier this year, the store paid $4 million to Latino warehouse workers who claimed they were denied promotions. CBS, NYT, The Photo Forum. (via becthomasphotography , via Joseph Linaschke)
Much loved photo supply store B&H sued for job discrimination against women
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I can't say that's a huge shock, B&H does play into some pretty serious cultural stereotypes. They're spending more money now, but time was they'd show up at huge shows (NAB, etc.) with folding tables in front of pipe-and-drape with a bunch of gear, and all their prettiest daughters in the aisles handing out catalogs.
The Photo Forum seems disconcertingly fixated on what those uppity broads will do to their god-given everyday low prices...
If you are female, and you go to buy a camera at B&H, and you have a male with you, good luck getting (most of) the sales people to even look at you. They will talk to the guy, but not the woman.
I do believe B&H has female staff though. The last time I went in there, I am pretty sure I was greeted and given directions by a woman. It has been a while, so I don't remember exactly.
The news stories do not mention that the store is run by Hasidic Jews. Which is fine, actions are pertinent in a lawsuit, religion is not.
But, when your male sales management and staff has been raised to see women as creatures separate and not equal to men, it would be difficult for them to leave that at home and accept women as equals in the workplace.
So, any favourite places to buy photography stuff other than B&H?
I came from an Orthodox Jewish background (all better now, thanks for asking) and all I can say is I am surprised it has not happened sooner.
Yes, as others have said, it is because the store is run by very orthodox Jews, and they are just following their beliefs.
I'm a jewish atheist, and even I don't shop there because...
1) The prices are not really that great. They are easily beaten by online retailers.
2) They are closed on Saturday because of jewishness. Too bad Saturday is really the only convenient day to go and buy things.
I also refuse to ever shop in Bergen County, NJ because they close everything on Sunday. It's too bad, because that's a very conveniently located IKEA, and it's not IKEAs fault the county forces them to close. It is their fault for opening a store in a stupid town, though.
i lived in nyc for 12 yrs. as a photographer b&h was my go to store.
being a woman often service was terrible and the sales people were very careful to never have any kind of physical contact with me. by this i mean shaking hands.
if i was looking at equipment the salesman would take it out put it down never just handing it directly to me.
i thought it odd so one day i asked a friend about this. i was told its because they believe woman are contaminated!
that it is a religious belief. women go to menstrual huts?
during sex there is a sheet(cant remember the name for it)between the man and the woman. also in this culture the woman wear wigs.
obviously to me thats very weird but it did explain alot.
so this comes as no suprise. i cant imagine why any woman would ever want to work there.
-best, melissa
I've been shopping there since the early nineties (pre-internet catalog days) when I figured out that you can haggle with them on the price. I don't know many places you can do that anymore. If you can show them a price anywhere online whether it's in stock or not, they'll match it.
Earlier this year, someone on an AV forum found a newly released receiver offered for ~40% off. Of course the place got rushed but they started taking back orders. I called B&H, they matched the price and shipped the next day. Seven weeks later, people were still waiting for their back orders to ship.
I'm not condoning their business practices and I do try to give my dollar to people who share my ideals but, until I win the lottery, sometimes it does boil down to who's going to give me the best price.
Yeah, I live right down the street from the store, so as it's my neighborhood electronics place, I shop there. They used to have a totally Orthodox sales staff (hair squiggles and all). They ALL flirted with me, which was incredibly annoying (not because of their Orthodoxness, but because I was there to shop, not hook up!). Now there are lots of seemingly non-Jewish sales staff, but no women. The only women in the place seem to be at the checkout counters, effectively roped off from everyone else in the store.
I'm still treated differently there because I'm a woman (boobs apparently equal no knowledge of technology), but frankly that happens in all electronic stores.
I wish B&H would get over the religion stuff. It's a business, people! Get over the Saturday thing, and hire some more women!
melissa - I don't believe that is correct at all. I used to work in Flatbush, Brooklyn, an area that is almost entirely Orthodox Jewish. I was confused and upset by this at first (being an Atheist Italian, I was unfamiliar with the customs.)
Women are not believed to be contaminated in the Orthodox Jewish religion, nor are they inferior to men. The way it was explained to me is that men do not touch women because they want to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Nothing can be misconstrued or misinterpreted if the situation doesn't present itself in the first place.
The webste BeingJewish.Com explains it like this:
"Judaism teaches that protection against illicit misconduct is an integral element of holiness. Staying separate from a man or woman who is forbidden to you helps you be less likely to sin with that person. Judaism demands holiness, and it is impossible to be holy while sinning. And the sin of illicit behavior is one of the most tempting, therefore we need greater deterrents against it.
In Judaism, men and women who are not married to each other do not touch each other, because touch is a very exciting and arousing experience. Men and women married to each other experience only each other, and this raises the experience of touch to an even more exquisite event. This is heightened even more by the fact that the Torah forbids a married couple to touch each other during the woman's menstrual period. During that time, husband and wife are forced to view each other as partners, and not as means of satisfying their physical lusts. This also has the effect of intensifying the rest of their time together."
http://www.beingjewish.com/faqs/men_women.html
This is, of course, deeper than discriminatory hiring practices. This is the limits of religious tolerance in the US. "You can believe whatever you want to believe until you believe something that's illegal for you to believe." Be that a certain herb in a ritual that is contraband, or chicken sacrifice (AKA: Animal Cruelty) in your Santeria, or keeping your Amish children out of public schools. This falls in the same boat. Do we have the right to force people to disobey their faith in certain public spheres? Does the State have the power to force these fundamentalists to change? Are we happy giving the State that power, knowing that backyard gardens and SubGenius orgies might be treated the same way?
There's nothing that isn't compromised.
@Apreche
Ah yes, the IKEA in the stupid place known as Paramus, NJ. Maybe they put an IKEA there because it's one of the largest retail districts in the world and to have it open seven days a week would just be a nightmare for the people who actually call the place home.
Also, not everything in Bergen County is closed on Sundays.
Please get your facts right.
Well, they have every right to follow their "women are inferior" religious beliefs, just so long as they are willing to periodically cough up a couple million to pay for these lawsuits. :D
Yes, the store is run by hasidim.
I'd just like to point out that if the store were run by Muslims from Pakistan or devout Catholics from Italy, at least some portion of these comments would probably be Muslim-bashing or Catholic-bashing.
So, that said, if the charges are valid and it sure sounds like they are -- I don't intend to patronize B&H again. Anyone have favorite alternatives? Places that aren't institutionally unfair to their female or Spanish-speaking employees?
I like to use Adorama.com for my photo supplies.
I am, in fact, happy giving the state the power to enforce the laws that we vote into place.
If your garden or your orgy isn't hurting anyone, it shouldn't matter whether you're doing it as part of your religion or not. And if it is hurting someone, the same should remain true.
(Though I'm not claiming that every law is sane or sensible.)
Are you honestly suggesting that we should limit law to those whose crimes are not part of their religion, or that any sane being should consider this even marginally desirable?
Exactly who is B&H "much loved" by? Quite apart from the sexism issues raised (which I haven't experienced directly), the service I've received there has been simply poor. I went there to buy an SD card once, and the "information desk" guy at the entrance insisted that the store didn't sell them. I pointed to them over his shoulder and said "Aren't they right there?" and he just shrugged and ignored me. Then I had to line up multiple times to get one: after I paid for it (second line) and then waited for it (third line -- shades of Soviet efficiency here), it turned out that my item had been lost in their silly conveyor belt system and I had to start again. What would have been a 30-second transaction in any other store (pick item off display or be handed it from behind counter, pay, sign, be handed item, walk out of store) ended up taking over 30 minutes. All human interactions I had were brusque and unhelpful. I have never had a worse retail experience. I won't be back.
I've been doing to B&H since they were in the photo district and in spite of the fact that they obviously have a gender bias, they have gotten MUCH better over the years. They used to be nasty - period.
I remember when I was a teen just starting in photography (I am now a 20+ year pro veteran) I went there and had a question before I made a purchase. The response? 'You want to buy? Buy. You want to chat? Get a therapist.'
I'm really curious how this is going to play out. Hasidim have owned photo supply stores in effect to not have to deal with non-Hasidim. That sounds counter-intuitive I'm sure. Hasidim also work in other electronics and commodity exchange businesses. They are very good at it, and that sounds like a stereotype, but no more then saying members of the Jackson family know how to sing.
B&H has always been like this. Living in SF, Calumet is the same way. ONLY men at the counters and they treat women like crap. I've lived here 10 years and have never gotten respect at Calumet. Its NOT JUST B&H.
"Are you honestly suggesting that we should limit law to those whose crimes are not part of their religion, or that any sane being should consider this even marginally desirable?"
I don't think a suggestion was being made. Rather, the difficulty inherent in the issue was being explored.
This is difficult for me. I tend toward anarchism, and assume that any authority given is going to be misused. With that axiom in place, you have to appeal to human potential. And maybe help formulate escape plans for those unfortunate enough to be born into intellectual or political bondage.
My friend went in to buy a Hasselblad from B&H and the man asked her if she might rather spend the money on kitchen appliances. They do have fast shipping though.
I second the commenter who recommends Adorama (incidentally, also a Jewish business, thus closed on Saturdays). They've got great prices and they're very very helpful.
As to whether this is ok of B&H to do, I'm torn. On the one hand, it's not cool to discriminate. On the other hand, I just can't gather the emotion to see this as a big deal. They're not the only place to get a job. Why are those four women bothering to sue them, I wonder? Do they want to work so badly in an environment where their presence will make everyone extremely uncomfortable? Or do they just want money? I doubt they're doing it on principle, I really don't think suing Hassidic Jews for not hiring a woman is the way to make a point. It's like, duh, what did you expect? Go fight the more obscure glass ceilings, the ones that don't have a warning sign posted.
Well I can't speak for the ladies, but i have usually had excellent service at B&H. The salespeople are knowledgeable and well trained on their products. I can usually try out something firsthand. And I get the best price. As was stated before, they will match any legitimate offer out there. The few times I have had bad service it is because they are completely mobbed and I can't get someone's attention.
That being said, sexual discrimination is illegal regardless of religious beliefs, and I believe it is a just law. They need to find a way to make it work.
Cefeida, do you mean warning signs like this?
http://www.edb.utexas.edu/faculty/salinas/students/student_sites/Spring2007/Christine_Paterson/whites_only.gif
No, guavajellyfish, that is not what I meant.
I visited a (the?) B&H store in Manhattan, the one in the photo district, with my husband in the early 90s. All the salesmen were Hasidim with sidelocks. There were no other women present. None of the salesmen would look at me directly, which was fine with me - I'm not a photographer - but the thing that weirded me out was that they were looking at me, "secretly", whenever I wasn't looking at them. Like they'd never seen a woman in the wild before. Kind of sweet, in a demented, Yentl sort of way. Oh yeah and I'm Jewish, just not *that* kind of Jewish. (And off topic, but I can't resist, @Apreche, bubbe, I'm pretty sure the phrase "Jewish Atheist" is a contradiction in terms. Ex-Jewish Atheist, perhaps.)
B&H is still the best photography supply store in the US. I hope they keep their religious views separate from anit-discrimination laws in the future, but I will still shop there, the alternatives are terrible.
Check out this photo next to "sales professionals" from the B/H website. They are using this image in their identity advertising, in all of the pro photo trade mags...
When i saw it a couple of months ago in Photo District News, I thought it was curious, since most, if not all of their salespeople are Hasidic, and are wearing traditional Hasidic clothing, as well as beards and payos (sidecurls).
Of course they were trying to make their whole operation look more "anglo"... supposing that a sales staff that was all Hasidic would offend customers?
Definitely deceptive advertising...
Here's the link :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/HelpCenter/NYSuperStore08.jsp
Maybe it's not the religion, but the profession, and I mean photography, not sales. Har, har.
Just a ridiculous thought from a live and let live atheist.
Though I've heard of no lawsuits with them, Adorama is also Jewish-owned, I believe orthodox. They keep the same hours as B&H.
For anyone who might be using that as a decision to patronize...
I'm pretty sure I've seen a woman behind a sales desk there though.