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COILHOUSE 03 is out
Surveillance video of insurgents in Afghanistan accidentally blowing themselves up while planting a bomb. What an explosion! Like a scene from The Hurt Locker (one of my favorite movies of the year). (Via Jack Shafer's tweet)
Surveillance video of insurgents in Afghanistan accidentally blowing themselves up while planting a bomb
Another day on BoingBoing, another day of mindless "ooh,gee lookit the BIG explosion!!" of war propoganda. Nothing wonderful about this video.
It chases Xeni on a unicorn.
This article about a bomb is a Unicorn Chaser!
Snuff films are snuff films, regardless of who's side you're on.
Cool!!! Two people just died horribly!!! Just like in the mooviez!!! Does anybody have the video of the electric chair where the dood gets his hair set on fire!!! Pretty funny lolz...
War propaganda? How so?
Santa's Knee here.
Mojave,
I will ALWAYS cheer when bombers (any bombers) blow themselves up instead of innocent others.
ALWAYS.
It IS wonderful and makes me a very happy mutant when those who would perpetrate violence and death are quite literally "hoisted by their own petard."
Live by the sword, etc etc
How exactly is this war propaganda? I've got exactly no sympathy for those assholes. I'm very glad the kid got clear of the whole thing, though.
Horribly? No. Pretty quick and painless if you ask me. Unlike the intended targets who would die after suffering from concussion and shrapnel days or weeks later.
I see no war propaganda in this video. I do see anti blindly following organized religion propaganda. Those guys deserve it just for having that kid anywhere near them.
yes sir general: i like watching those videos of our own service members dieing in action too: because war is horrible and wasteful of human life, and everyone ought to know it. Particularly those who live very far away from the fighting, and who yet "support" war.
http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/
http://www.cryptome.org/
Knowledge is power. Secrecy breeds crime. You get what you pay for....
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/08/report-blackwater-guard-saw-iraqi-killings-as-911-revenge/
You complainers are so far removed from your manly selves that you can't just appreciate a cool explosion mixed with a little Schadenfreude.
Do we complain so loudly for the Darwin Awards? No.
Never forget why.
These guys, that's whom.
Riiiiighht. Like the U.S. Defense Department has never, ever, ever lied to the american public. You hear the voice saying it's a "kid" so your brain automatically assumes it's a kid.....thereby painting the U.S. side as the "good guys" because they really, really wouldn't ever want to have to shoot a missile at a kid.
Gullible, much?
Gee maybe some of our foreign military aid should go to teaching these guys the proper way to make bombs, for use against our enemies....I remember those golden days with reagan as prez, and our brave mujahedeen and their fight against those godless commies....what? Something's changed, you say? OK OK...scratch the 'teach them how to fight properly" idea.
I hope one of those guys in the hole wasn't that kid's father. :(
vr t l-Jzr, th crrnt hdln s "fghnstn's Ltst Tp Mrtyrs"
mojave, no matter where you live, your government does terrible things in your name, and lies to you about it. We all already know this on some level.
FYI - One smart guy to another, your beacon of truth and righteousness is blinding you to your own boorish behaviour. This is someones living room you're standing in. Manners.
Keneke - I don't read the Darwin awards, because the whole idea unpleasant, unnecessary, cruel, and profoundly sad and saddening. I read BoingBoing because it's the exact opposite of that site - if BB regularly posted links to the Darwin awards, I would be turned off BB.
google search -> "darwin awards" site:boingboing.net
Ed Dunkel
Do you read Arabic? Because the English Al Jazeera site has the following top headlines right now:
UN inquiry finds Gaza war crimes
US 'needs larger Afghanistan force'
Iraq frees shoe-throwing journalist
Better them than one of my friends. Remember, its the red wire!
IEDs, ur doin it wrong.
If they had video technology back in 1775 the British would be watching videos of Colonial militia men blowing themselves up in blackpowder accidents.
Darwin Award winners' usual only crime is stupidity. These guys are (presumably*) also violent thugs of a stupefyingly oppressive regime, in the act of trying to kill people themselves. A quick death in service to their ideals is not only much better than they deserve, it's probably exactly what they want and expect. Enough sympathy.
*I hear they sometimes hire otherwise basically neutral people to do this sort of work for them. Still, "ammoral hired killer" is not the most sympathetic character, either, even if they are living in poverty.
As for whether it's propaganda for war, against war, depressing, funny, or some combination, that probably just depends on the temperment of the viewer.
MDH - based only on the first page of results from that search, it would seem that people have mentioned the Darwin awards in several comment threads, not that the BB crew regularly post links to items on the Darwin awards site.
Which I think we could have concluded based on observation of this thread right here, or for that matter, of human nature.
Hurt Locker was an incredible film. I'll never need to see it again though. It overloaded my poor nervous system.
#17 Drgnfrg:
t"s rght thr, nxt t th "Pmp My Trbn" bnnr d.
KABOOM
Thanks for the laughs, Mojave, Canuck et al. Your self-righteousness rather destroys your attempts at scolding, kind of like being blown up by one's own, um, you get the idea.... :D
propaganda or no, it may very well be porn.
These guys are (presumably*) also violent thugs of a stupefyingly oppressive regime, in the act of trying to kill people themselves.
Or alternatively, patriots trying to defend their homeland from foreign invaders who have overwhelming technological advantages.
Just a data point question here: When we're talking about "insurgents" we're talking about Americans, right--those were Americans blowing themselves up? Because if they're Afghans defending their country from a foreign (i.e., U.S.) invasion, they're natives, not "insurgents".
@ #1:
Another day on BoingBoing, another day of mindless complaints about the flavor of the free ice cream.
A video of two people dying.
How wonderful.
Unicorns plz. k thx bye.
Big Ed,
Feel free to write me and explain why I should let you back in.
Mojave, I agree wholeheartedly that war is a horrible, wasteful enterprise that hopefully we as a species will someday leave behind (although I have my doubts). It is nothing but tragedy that people died for want of a better way in this video.
There are without a doubt murderous, amoral people in the US military, and the military is probably the best place for them to be.
There are also without a doubt people who believe that what they are doing is for the long term good of their country, and of the countries that our elected politicians have sent them to fight in. They may well be misguided or naive, but they are sincere.
While it does not reflect badly on the the person belonging to the voice on the tape that they wish for the "kid" to leave the area, it seems a bit of a leap that it is therefore a propangandistic ploy from the DOD to show that US troops are the "good guys".
There is enough horror in this horrorshow without making more up.
Living people...
Living people...
Dead people!
So cool.
-- MrJM
I find the whole snap "they deserved to die" judgement of some people to be very disturbing. I do believe in the need for justice and punishment for wrongdoings; but in the blink of an eye to affirm that somebody DESERVED to die, just because of some kind of first impression, is kind of psychopathic.
I don't think it's cool to make light of human suffering and death. I don't see Mark doing that in this post, but I would ask commenters to please remember common human decency before posting hateful stuff, or treating this as some kind of abstraction or joke.
I've long been torn about the use of images over the past few wars. There is no question the reality of Viet Nam spewing blood into American homes on television every night sped the end of that pointless carnage. There is also no question that the Pentagon and it's suppliers learnt that lesson and banned images of Americans dying (pretty neat trick in a putative democracy). There are many images, some gratuitous, some documentary and all powerful, that could be trotted out to make points about the reality of war. Should I? How much horror do you want?
I try to be a compassionate person but I have no sympathy for these two - when you deal in death and destruction, some day it will visit your door too.
These people don't care who they kill. Yes, I'm sure they have a cause they're fighting for and that issue needs to be addressed somehow but blowing up innocents doesn't help, it's just a maddening, saddening, pointless distraction with pain and death all around.
Antinous, really? Once the Taliban embraced warlord tactics, I think they forfeited the right to call themselves patriots.
Remember:
Beer good
Bombs bad
or
"Don't ever touch the red button!"
Xeni, I don't think Mark intended to make light of human suffering, but it sorta ends up that way by the fact of his pointing out how "cool" the explosion is, and how it resembles a movie, which sort of trivializes the content.
The only reason that these kinds of images are tolerated anyway is because they are taken from far away. If it were up close, then they would never be considered for BB.
Isn't there a completely obvious edit (aka "jumpcut") at the explosion point? The angle of the road instantly changes.
How do we know the explosion isn't from a missle, whose approach has been clipped out?
You people expect too much. How can you say 'never' about someone else's work? do your own.
and does anyone here know who these people were? Where they came from? What were their stories?
As for "warlord tactics"? Do you have any idea of what you are speaking about?
What self-righteousness? My "self-righteousness" never killed anybody, nor has my woundedprideever started a war...and that IED could easily have been meant for my cousins, my brothers & sisters, fighting in the Afghan war. Or have you forgotten who pulls combat duty right f****n next to you yanks in S Afghanistan?
The guys in the vid were fighting their corner, and we fight our corner. They deserve respect: the same respect due to any person who dies fighting for what they believe in. No matter how misguided or mistaken the goals, their sacrifice (however useless) yet remains, and therby deserves our respect. Just as the US soldiers who lost their lives in Vietnam. Never a matter for laughter, except for ghouls and war profiteers.
War is for most a most hateful necessity....but you USians seem start them up for prideful sport: and are apparently happy to exult in your destruction of human life, or the destruction of human life brought about in resisting your violence.
An attitude guaranteed to repel and repulse your allies. Maybe y'all have not noticed?
And this war, started by the USA in great haste, has been ongoing for eight years now: and it's getting worse for NATO, not better. Mocking the courage of one's enemies...hahaha, what a bloody mess!...I'm sure that will help end the war.
How many more decades do you expect we Canucks to keep taking bloody hits on the ground because of your inability to shoot straight from the air? Or your failure to judiciously choose your shots so as not to hit those you claim you are there to help?
I don't understand why the comments by Big Ed were disemvoweled. I can only guess to their content, but if my guess is correct it's pretty hilarious stuff!
Please do not get me wrong: the face of war must be plain for all to see. There's really no reason for anybody to fight.
There really isn't.
@patricio, I think it's fair for us to be having that sort of debate in the comments here, and I appreciate you being civil about it. Remember that BB is not one single editorial voice, but an amalgam of individual, strong editorial voices, which also change moods over time. There is no unified editorial process through which each of our posts are approved. So, Mark's posting something he finds interesting, and may or may not be doing so with the intent some here have ascribed.
Again, though, it's okay for debate to happen here. Just want to ask people in the comments please not to be coarse or hateful. This video does document human death and suffering.
Takuan, see: targeting civilians, suicide bombers, oppressing women and girls, ethnic cleansing.
Xeni, while those were real people who died, I'm watching an image of those people: that's a necessary stage of abstraction. I don't know them, their country, their families, etc. Nor am I able to gauge how much empathy is due a violent theocratic warrior who's pursuing a quite dangerous career path. Your calling out the callousness of some posts is good, but how much sincere empathy can a tiny story like this get from us Internet masses?
Both-and folks, not either/or. It's BOTH a cool video with a big explosion and a document of human suffering and death. The statements, seemingly contradictory, are somewhat mutually reinforcing. Negative capability, etc.
"Or alternatively, patriots trying to defend their homeland from foreign invaders who have overwhelming technological advantages."
The Taliban insurgency was fomented primarily in Pakistan and they have little or no popular support from the Afghan people, especially women, who have suffered nearly two decades of abuse at their hands.
It's always sad when anonymous Internet people try to score cheap uninformed, ahistorical rhetorical points at the expense of the innocent thousands of miles away.
Anyone have a non-cnn link? Their player hates my version of Chrome, apparently.
tell me Ugly, why are Canadians dying in Afghanistan today? And perhaps even more importantly, why are they killing innocent civilians?
targeting civilians? Like wedding parties? Suicide bombers? Friendly fire you mean? Oppressing women and girls? You know, woman had some status and respect in Afghanistan before the Taliban. You know, the Taliban armed and funded by America in a proxy war against Russia - over a future pipeline route? You remember all that, right? Ethnic cleansing? Like shooting hajis?
general: they are Pashtuns, religious Pashtuns, with support from a significant segment of the population. Wishing it were different, will not make it so.
And there are many "NATO-friendly" warlords (better than "warlords": "chiefs") helping us too, you know. You ought not to make policy (particularly war policy) based upon the use of pejorative epithets; but rather upon the social truths concerning the people whose behavior you wish to change.
Or is it just easier to pull the trigger, and to let the bombs fly?
Just because CNN is airing it, doesn't make it propaganda. They likely came across it on a site like liveleak.org which displays user uploaded footage from all sides of both the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts.
The internet era has brought a whole new kind of war coverage- not via embeds or the AP- but by soldier helmet cams, insurgent videos, gunship cameras etc. all being uploaded to the internet.
I am fascinated by the grim frank reality of a lot of this footage. Being removed from any context other than what the lens captures makes it all feel very real, personal and decidedly non-propaganda.
http://middle-east.liveleak.com/
Every day piles of new footage are being uploaded, raw and unfiltered, covering every perspective imaginable.
@canuck - Or is it just easier to pull the trigger, and to let the bombs fly?
Am I to choose my answer based on your words, or based on your tone? Do you practice what you preach?
better to pull the trigger and let the bombs fly. sorry, but you asked!
I truly believe that Afghans just wish to hell everyone would get out of their country. Period. The west has nothing to offer or give them, the outsider fanatics even less so.
"The guys in the vid were fighting their corner, and we fight our corner. They deserve respect: the same respect due to any person who dies fighting for what they believe in. No matter how misguided or mistaken the goals, their sacrifice (however useless) yet remains, and therby deserves our respect."
I disagree. I have no respect for the Columbine killers, post office shooters, The Unibomber, The Oklahoma City Bomber or anyone else who uses their twisted beliefs to justify the killing of others. You may feel the need to give those kinds of people "mad props" and that's your business. There is nothing respectful about taking the life of a person who poses no direct threat. Anyone could have driven past that IED and tripped the cord, not just troops.
Takuan, see: targeting civilians, suicide bombers, oppressing women and girls, ethnic cleansing.
In other words, bombing wedding parties. Wait...we do that.
Oops, guess that happens when you're playing with explosives and you don't know what you're doing. Score another one for Darwin!
Antinous #63:
In other words, bombing wedding parties. Wait...we do that.
To be fair, we usually don't intentionally slaughter unarmed civilians. Depraved indifference is one step up the morality ladder from first degree murder even if it doesn't get you out of the basement.
they say that when Americans begin to learn to pronounce the name of your country, red hot metal will fall from the skies.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/19683-america-indias-intrest-baluchistan.html
People need a little perspective. You can think that the US beating around Afghanistan is a waste of lives and money but that doesn't make the Taliban the good guys. By absolutely any measure of a government, the Taliban government is a horrible and oppressive regime that commits intentional and unspeakable acts of horror against its own citizens and relegates women to the role of slave.
If these guys were democratic freedom fighters looking to whack a few Americans for propping up the dictator Hamid Karzai, I might be sad to see themselves blow up. If they had some non-democratic alternative government that they thought was going to bring freedom and liberty to Afghanistan, I might feel a bad about them blowing up, even if I disagreed with their alternative. That said, these are Taliban insurgents who support a government that is, by any measure of liberalness, horrible and oppressive on a scale that most western minds can't even begin to grasp.
Tak: IIRC we (CDN forces) have not been calling in many (errant) air strikes: and we are there primarily due to the invocation of S. 8 of the NATO Treaty by the USA (IIRC), obligating the Alliance to come to the aid of a fellow Treaty Signatory after an attack...in this case the attacks in NYC & Washington of Sept 11, 2001. That the NATO members went along with this (IMHO) unintended and thus unforeseen expansion of the scope of S.8 to cover defense against non-state actors is a matter (IMHO) for regret (emotions were understandably running a little high at the time, as we all remember): and a matter for some possible future (re-)negotiation and clarification of the Treaty, too.
But the Taliban were not then recognized Government: by anybody, IIRC. Indeed, Afghanistan was not held by any recognized Government at that time. The Taliban had even beheaded, contrary to ancient international Law, some Iranian Ambassadors, IIRC. (I shall remain silent as to the differences between "recognized" and "effective" governments, for now: but they need not be the same. Hint: it is a political difference...)
But that does not change the fact that the Taliban are an indigenous movement, a cross-border (for the "border" between Afghanistan and Pakistan has never really existed...except as a line on European maps) ethnic Pashtun movement. IIRC British writings about Afghanistan in the 1850s refer to the "Talibans"...but they were (and are) no threat to the USA & Canada, or to Europe, (as distinct from their Forces stationed on Afghan/Pak territory) however much they threaten their own people and their freedoms.
Al-qaeda was/is the threat to our populations: but they have no country to attack, do they? Very frustrating, that: particularly if you want to use the army, navy, air force, marines, and CIA to attack them.
As most here would perhaps know, if I lived under the Taliban...I would not live long! That does not mean that I am willing to indefinitely support a war to...what? Defend some Afghans from...other Afghans? To defend Afghan women from Afghan men?
To change the basic system of law (Sharia) which has obtained in Afghanistan for many centuries - perhaps a millenium (I am ignorant of when Sharia was first introduced into, say, Herat...prior to even Tamerlane, I should think)?
No, we are there to help the Americans: and that means to help the.... well, the "right" Afghans.
We are patient, and we actually are nice. Unlike some Americans, "compromise" is not a dirty word for Canadians. Personally, I think that we should keep sending the Afghans food and other good and useful things, even after our troops leave. (Which they eventually must.)
Even should the Taliban then control some or all of the country.
Rindan, did you read ANY of the foregoing?
Brainspore: And contrary to western belief, the Taliban do not target "innocent Afghan civilians"...they are not Blackwater! They target primarily western armies and our "local friends". (Which is kinda like what our armed Forces do too, come to think of it - target primarily insurgents and "those who give them safe harbor".)
They disavowed any responsibility for a big bomb attack in one of the cities not so very long ago...they do rely on the support of their countrymen to survive. That's for sure.
And that's why it's Vietnam for slow learners...
I think people who plant IEDs should all die. If they would all die NOW rather than later, this would be even better.
I'd like all the Taliban to die, too. Even if they're not all IED-planters.
I oppose bombing wedding parties. I oppose targeting of civilians, or targeting randomly in the full knowledge that civilians may be killed, or even carelessly without due attention to avoiding civilian casualties.
When my side does it, I want them to CUT IT THE FUCK OUT. And those who do it knowingly and deliberately should be punished severely. On our side, it's against policy and law. Yes, I know it happens anyway. That's what investigation and punishment are for.
With the Taliban, it's their deliberate policy. They deliberately target civilians, AFGHAN civilians, and they set IEDs like this one that could get anyone. They are fanatics, and if you think they would stop if all the foreigners left their country you are wrong.
I want them all dead. These two are dead: good. If that kid got away: good. I hope he has a screaming-and-fleeing phobia of bombs for the rest of his life.
Full disclosure: I am one step away from someone who got killed by an IED, and zero steps (i.e. I knew them personally) from several people who died in the World Trade Center. I would have been one myself if I'd gotten up earlier that day. I hate the Taliban for what they've done and are still doing, but especially for giving aid, comfort, and shelter to Al Qaeda—and if anyone deserves to die of brain worms, it's Al Qaeda, every single one of them from Osama bin Laden down to the guy who makes their sandwiches.
Ugly Canuck, the Taliban have claimed responsibility for other bombings in civilian areas in the past. Disavowing one will not sweeten their poor hands, nor all the perfumes of Arabia.
Depraved indifference is one step up the morality ladder from first degree murder even if it doesn't get you out of the basement.
Malice. Stupidity.
Stupidity. Malice.
Let's call the whole thing off.
What does this have to do with David Byrne, zines, psychedelics, or steampunk? I'm confused. For a moment there, I thought I opened an email from my grandfather-in-law. Which one of these poooooosts is doin' it's own thiiiiing? Now it's tiiiime to plaaay our game...it's time to play our game!
"why are Canadians dying in Afghanistan today?"
Because Afghanistan is the world's leading supplier of rocks. Without securing Afghanistan, garden supply stores would not have any rocks to sell. It would be absolute chaos! Rocks don't just grow on trees you know.
Exulting in the violent death of any human being is too horrible a practice for my mind to grasp: and as the Officers of our Armed Forces are all gentlemen, I should think that such exaltation is limited to the unthinking and unfeeling populace, ignorant of War.
As I said above, the sacrifice made by any person who actually gives up his or her life for any cause in the belief and hope that it may help others - no matter how misguided or wrong - is worthy of our respect.
My humanity sees past the mere colors affixed to the lapel of the uniform, or dyed into the cap or turban. But this only applies to enemies once they are safely dead! I would have expected our Forces to destroy these guys (and applauded them for it!), had they not blown themselves up first.
I am glad that their IED won't be taking any of our troops out. And I include all of our NATO Allies in that sentiment!
But people ought never to forget the humanity of the enemy, even though they do not acknowledge it in us. IMHO we ought not give them reasons to deny it in us, by them seeing us exulting in the violent deaths of our enemies, their friends.
All NATO's horses and all NATO's men can't put the Afghans together again. Just as we are getting out of Iraq, we will get out of Afghanistan. We can't outfight them and we sure as hell can't outfuck them. They're going to win, you know.
Whatever variety, whichever flavor, they're going to win.
They're every bit as human as you or me.
Some human deaths are not a bad thing. Taliban deaths improve the human race's average morality level. This is a good thing.
canuck, i want to agree with you, but you're so disagreeable I find it difficult. Maybe if you got off that high horse?
Because Afghanistan is the world's leading supplier of r/o/c/k/s/ heroin.
FTFY
gee Xopher. That word "Taliban" in yout last comment could easily be switched for other group identifiers....and the statement would still be odious. Perhaps a racial, or a religious group identifier, or one based upon sexual orientation, could be switched in....you get the drift.
PS Some of us are against the death penalty in all cases.
@68: I don't see how Article 5 of the NATO treaty suggests that the armed attack has to come from a nation-state.
http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm
And my read of the text is that it is entirely self-executing. Besides, NATO invoked Article 5 on September 11 itself, so it was hardly the US trying to shepherd reluctant allies into action. The world, that day anyway, was quite clear.
Also, it is interesting to note that NATO's article 5 only applies to attacks in North America/Europe, something that was put in place to avoid drawing NATO into the various bloody bits of decolonization in the post-war years.
Xopher: Yes,a most immoral comment, that.
MDH: The ugly truth is, it's too far....I can't get down!
Whoa! (Gallops off into sunset)
I guess I'm the only one who questions whether they actually blew themselves up, and weren't taken out by a missile, just because the voice-overs said they blew themselves up?
Who was that ugly guy who galloped off? I wanted to Pbbbbbbbbbt!
thought about that. It doesn't matter, the video is either as presented or totally false but the message is the same.
In most likelihood the Chinese will finish taking over the world in the near future.
I say this because of the nearly 20million young men who cannot find brides IN China, a soon to be vastly growing population (they have finally figured out the one child policy was stupid after all who will take care of the elders),and a near strangle hold on the rare earth metals needed for modern tech including weaponry. Almost forgot to mention the have all the money in the world.
(this was a big lead up I know, now where am I going with this)
They will come to America and Europe for the brides, and ala Chung Kuo by David Wingrove (and modern Chinese policy vs insurgents), they are not going to put up with any crap from anyone sic.Uighurs.
Our time is nearly up, so we better start playing nice!
Ugly: I though Canada was in Afghanistan because she failed to prevent the rise to power of Mulrooney's whelp, the Cheney-taint sniffing Harper.
That and a military that feels faintly ridiculous since no one ever attacks Canada.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gav3IUk0Ivw6HbHtofH1CgZrxomQ
http://www.canada.com/news/Canadian+troops+accidentally+kill+Afghan+girl/1817497/story.html
http://www.canada.com/news/Canadian+soldiers+kill+Afghan/1804702/story.html
Aah, Article 5 is it? And NATO itself brought it into play? Sure about that?
Ah so.
But the IRA attacks in England did not count for this, eh? Nor did the ETA attacks in Spain. It appears that 9-11 was taken not to be a "normal" terrorist attack....
Ah, but there is some flexibility: and the question on 9-11 was novel: did article 5 apply at all?
http://www.youngatlanticist.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=184&Itemid=39
Well, that decision was taken.
But as others have pointed out, the Taliban did not attack, nor did the State of Afghanistan.
And we have NATO fighting what looks to be a "colonial war", anyway.
The ramifications of that invocation of Section 5 are still playing out.
We shall see if NATO survives this Afghan mission.
http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2006/issue2/english/art1.html
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=ce5e24b3-61f7-467d-9111-771cc90d6f1e
well, it's a subtle difference, I guess, Takuan -- if they get blown up by their own device, it demonstrates a certain level of stupidity, as opposed to being taken out by some other method.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=190x16645
"The US may require more troops in Afghanistan despite almost doubling the size of its force there this year, its top military officer has said."
Looks like we might all get to go over there and check it out in person.
No. 1 Mojave:
It's clear that, to you, there is no line that could ever demarcate "us" and "them." Any sense of morality demands such a line.
To me what's enormously satisfying here is not the explosion, but the contrast between one side purposefully involving a child in their act of war, and the other side pleading, "Go away kid, go away kid, go away kid," to that very same child.
Enormously satisfying, as I said.
maybe stupid, maybe deserving. Maybe. Would you like a list of fatal military accidents for each foreign power now in Afghanistan?
Cog: think of it as a pageant.
No no Tak the Liberals were in power at that time: it was only after Chretien said "No" to going into Iraq, that he was forced out by the right wing of his Party.
Afghanistan is a Lib + Conservative thing. Had Harper been in power, we'd be dieing in iraq with the Americans & the Iraqis. And I'd have taken up the political cudgels is a far more forceful and vigorous way!
And although our guys have killed some civilians, it is an order of magnitude less than the number of Afghan non-combatants the US forces have destroyed.
and that makes it better? Blood is blood, and blood does not wash off.
Antinous #73:
Malice. Stupidity.
Stupidity. Malice.
Let's call the whole thing off.
I'm definitely with you on the "let's call the whole thing off" part. I've been opposed to the war in Afghanistan since the beginning.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28151
For all the crocodile tears I'm seeing for those poor, poor Talibanis, I'd like to oppose Hamlet's immortal words re: his victims Rosencrantz and Guildenstern:
So, sure, war sucks. But the Taliban suck way worse. Peace to their souls, but I'm not shedding any tears for them, especially not any fake ones.
Jeez Cog, the Americans are holding a Canadian child in Gitmo.
As to any war:
Either you can get useful things done (by useful, I mean change the behavior of people in the ways that you went there with your troops to change) or not.
If it don't (or can't) work, change tactics, or get out of Dodge.
As I hope I've made clear, the deaths of these fellows doesn't particularly move me. Two more dead soldiers, out of how many millions in human history. But the tone and attitude of some to these deaths move me - to disgust.
That is all
Now for something completely different:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b912mMKN6OA
http://quotes.tracyphaup.com/quotes-and-quotations/liar-quotes.html
As a 2 time infantry vet who was wounded in Afghanistan by an IED I have zero sympathy for sh*t bag insurgents who were setting that IED to kill NATO forces. And as far as the hurt locker. It's Crap,I have MUCH respect and thanks for my EOD brothers.(That means you Captain Norton of British forces who was wounded right in front of me July 25th 2005) That was a Hollywood movie of what it's like to be in Iraq as a Troop on the ground. It had inklings of what its like but not even close. My one example I will give. EOD travels with a security force! They don't go cowboy and leave the wire WITH ONE GUN TRUCK!!! Nor do they go building clearing..Those guys are to valuable to do work of that type. Us grunts are cheaper and much better at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP3A1Df6mwk&feature=related
so why were you there, bull?
Takuan. I was there so you did not have to be.
and why would I have to be there?
crocodile tears
Just because you don't feel empathy doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
I will ALWAYS cheer when bombers (any bombers) blow themselves up instead of innocent others.
ALWAYS.
It IS wonderful and makes me a very happy mutant when those who would perpetrate violence and death are quite literally "hoisted by their own petard."
Yep, that's my take on it, too.
Tdawwg #104:
So, sure, war sucks. But the Taliban suck way worse.
That's a false choice. It's now clear that we can have war AND the Taliban.
Takuan.You know what. Trying to explain to you why I was there and why I went is the equivalent of explaining sex to a virgen.And I don't have the time nor the will to explain either of them to you.
if it were so simple, Mark. Yes, when someone falls into their own pit, there is a certain sour satisfaction. But why did they dig it in the first place? Were they monsters? Monsters exist of course, I know a few. But, were they?
you may pass, bull.
bull22delta #115:
Trying to explain to you why I was there and why I went is the equivalent of explaining sex to a virgen.
I don't mean to belittle your service, but people explain sex to virgins all the time. I knew what sex was ever since I was a six-year-old watching antelopes do it on Marty Stouffer's "Wild America."
Go on, Bull22Delta. Your reasons can't have been that weird.
are you sure those were antelopes?
Brainspore. Let me back track then. How it "feels" to have sex. And nothing will "ever" belittle my service.
The way I look at it is this, very simple:
These guys died failing to kill some of our soldiers.
why were they trying to kill your soldiers?
Watching closely that video it appears a bit of it was removed just before the explosion, roughly 5 secs are missing. Just look at that road orientation.
More to the point, who is "our"?
I went to war once. I went because I was young and ignorant. I sure as shit didn't go to spare somebody else from going. I won't play that card, Bull, and I don't think you should either.
Ok, why was I there? What made me want to go back in the Army after being out 15 years to leave a job and my wife behind. It was day I saw the news footage of Nicolis Berger being beheaded. It was 9/11. It was the desire to share my experience with younger grunts. And..Im sure I will catch flak for this from those of you who have not been in the military..It was a chance to practice my trade that I spent 6 years perfecting. I will never regret it nor forget it.
Buddy66 to each his own.
You'd think the american military would be able to afford higher quality video equipment. I've seen security camera footage from the 80s that was better.
"Crocodile tears" is a bit strong, and imputes motive to deceive, but the point remains that many of these protestations of empathy for the Taliban sound empty and hollow. If nostrums like "war is horrible and wasteful of human life, and everyone ought to know it" work for you rhetorically, then so be it.
Well, the link is farked now.
What I'm wondering is how do you know those are real live dead people?
bull22delta@121: nobody wants to denigrate your commitment, you probably just served your country in the wrong way, despite the bullshit your superiors told you.
Want to serve your country without giving the world an otherwise well deserved reason to hate it? Help rebuilding where Katrina hit, donate some IT equipment to a poor community, go teaching IT to their kids (that will keep most of them away from street, alcohol and drugs), become a firefighter or a paramedic, etc. There are a ton of possibilities to actually help your country *a lot more* without messing in a destructive way with other countries.
Tdawwg,
for me, 90% of the reasons America (et al) has used military force in other countries "sound empty and hollow", and designed solely for rhetorical value. Yet I still keep hearing them, and real-world actions are still being perpetrated through them.
is the military "a trade"?
Oh what a pity! Stiil, all-in-all it's been a good week for the Taliban.
You know, this whole thing about faked video and propaganda reeks of the left wing nut jobs here in the US screaming about death panels and fake birth certificates.
Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg
Huh. There's a lot more idiocy here than I first realized.
Milquetoast does not equal high-minded.
all from Saudi Arabia but one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks
what were you teaching the younger?
milquetoast, Cog?
Takuan, I was there almost a year to the day he was murdered. Iraq may of 05 to may of 06 (OIF3) and Afghanistan March of 07 to march of 08 (OEF7)
and are not Afghans and Iraqis two different nations and peoples?
As usual most of the posters, either for or against US involvement in Afghanistan, frame their discourse in strictly "US vs. them" terms. Gee, I wonder if there's anyone else in Afghanistan besides US soldiers and hard-core Taliban fighters?
To me it was obvious that the kid, sick and tired of the accumulation of limbless relatives of his due to assholes planting yet more landmines in the most landmined country on earth, rode out to offer the assassins a nice refreshing thermos of TNT!! Nice work kid.
Have people been under the impression that IEDs come with magic sensors to differentiate between soldiers and people on their way to market to feed their children?
Caspar Milquetoast?
nah, probably all that happened is the kind of stupid mistake people make every day and get away with because they aren't handling high explosives.
Nadreck,
The "us" vs. "them" framework only encompasses the people in the video. That's common sense. The video is the subject of the discussion.
Of course there are many other people -- and so many other types of people -- in Afghanistan. Only a moron would think otherwise.
or maybe they masered them after the kid walked away. Who knows?
Here's a youtube mirror to the video, while the CNN one is BB'd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z78xOYNISg
The day that I start using sex as a metaphor for war, feel free to blow me up.
Arkizzle @ 131, I'd totally agree with you, but I don't see your point re: empathy for the Taliban fighters killed in the video. There is indeed quite a lot of hollow speech out there.
Tdawwg, I'm just not that willing to whoop and cheer for anyone dying, is all. And you make that sound like a bad thing.
Antinous@151
OW!
Tdawwg,
Feeling empathy for your friends is easy. Feeling empathy for your enemies is a skill that takes a lot of practice.
it takes a human being to cut another human's neck. Otherwise it's just tradesmen slaughtering chickens.
This could go down in BB history as being at once one of the most idiotic, thoughtful, informative, and masturbatory comment threads ever.
Ever.
And I love it!
-Anonymous
"...the left wing nut jobs here in the US screaming about death panels and fake birth certificates."
Bull, I know you learned left from right in boot camp. :o)
you're pulling my...leg?
and I want to ammend #157 by saying that many individuals have commented with things that incensed me and enlightened me, seriously.
A great, great thread, for those of you who haven't scoured from the top.
And I think we can at least partially thank Mark.
133# spoken like a babe.
Bull, clarify your comment@160 please.
Antinous@151
BOOM?
and yes sorry to the left wing nut jobs I was refering to the right wing nut jobs. Im gonna just sit here in the gray area of reality.
OK, what gives him the right to question my choice in how I serve my country? You know I hate 9/11 being used thrown around for arguments sake. But has anyone forgotten that? Does anyone look at all of this from the side? Or do they just suck down whatever there group of choice spews out? How about the schools the roads the women centers and hospitals that we have set up in Afghanistan? Or the sick and hurt children that were brought to our FOB and daily basis because they lack the health care. Or the little girls and women who's eyes I have seen light up because they see the opportunity for being something other then a baby maker and a slave of the husband and men of her family. How about the work I do with other wounded vets?(www.oursoldiers.org)Or the time that I have to dedicate to my community and my childrens schools? I called them a babe because they want to see things in black and white. I guess what he wanted to say was "If you are not with us you are against us" I remember another babe saying that and I helped vote him out of office.
"If they had video technology back in 1775 the British would be watching videos of Colonial militia men blowing themselves up in blackpowder accidents."
Oddly enough, there used to be an American TV show where a frequent plot device were rebels blowing up british soldiers with black power IEDs during the revolutionary war.
Usually set off by by Ben Franklin looking kid using static discharge from a Leyden jar.
Kind of surprising they didn't blow themselves up, but that's fiction for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Rebels
Arkizzle and Antinous, great points both, I guess I just really hate the damned Taliban. Maybe it's from being in New York on 9-11, maybe it's having read about their atrocities, I dunno, I just can't feel much empathy for the two men in the video. But thanks for disagreeing and helping me see your arguments. You're both totally right, though: the Taliban are human, and my "their deaths touch not me" bullcrap was gross. Thanks!
I like hearing our guy saying "go away kid go away kid."
I'm not without empathy for these two guys. I'm sure they have families who will be devastated.
That's not at all incompatible with being glad they're dead. Sorry, but it isn't.
Their deaths are a net saving of lives, in all probability. Taking them out reduces by two pairs of hands the the bomb-setting capacity of the Taliban. That's a drop in the bucket, but more than outweighs the tragedy of their deaths.
"Out of the mouths of babes...."
Bull, thanks for that.
You're right, no gets to tell you how to serve.
Separately though, I do think they get to opine on how (and who) you choose to serve. And, as an extention of that, get to critique the actions that the United States (again, et al) have undertaken in various countries.
There have been too many cynical and opportunistic moves by the US military over the years, for many outside the US to hear the goodwill, alone. It is not just goodwill, and it behooves you to acknowledge that.
There are a dead set of innocent eyes for every one you have seen light up, and 9/11 doesn't begin to cover it, in my book.
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Yeah Xopher, just like 50 000 draftees killed by the NVA and the resultant "Vietnam Syndrome" was a w/o doubt a net saving of lives as it humbled the US war machine for a decade or so.
NATO now has more troops and mercenaries in Afghanistan than the Soviets did at the peak of their occupation. Will any luck the USA will suffer a decade or two of "Afghanistan Syndrome" once they are finally driven out.
Fantasy Fiction can't solve everything, Ant.
Says you.
Oh, I'm sure you're right, but statistically.. :)
And there is a lot of sets of dead guilty eyes too.People that would cut your head of with a butter knife on youtube instead of having the dialog that we are having here today. And all of us having our say here is what makes a democratic country the great thing that it is.Even if we have to put up with crap like death panel rumors and almost openly racist conservatives who hate our president for no other reason then having a black father. So all politics aside I thank alot of you for your opinions. Soldiers are not automatons that shoot first and think later. And a lot of us dwell everyday on ever time we have had to pull the trigger. There are good things happening.And for the people who hate the war but want to help the people.Volunteer! There are so many programs going on there that are so positive. I wish I could go back and do that work. I have Afghan friends that were some of the kindest and generous people you will ever meet. That want nothing but the freedom that most of us have.. So many people talk the talk but when it comes to doing something....They don't have the will to do it.
Most of the world gets its moral compass from fantasy fiction: the Bible, the Quran, the Gita, Mao's Little Red Book... I have absolutely no qualms about taking advice from Gandalf the Grey.
My observations...
Without captions, we can't tell who is involved or what they are doing. For all we know, it could be locals digging a well.
Or perhaps it was some locals digging up old landmines for sale. American made landmines fetch good prices in Iraq, and there are countless such landmines there. There are also lots of Russian landmines too, but they're not worth as much. Lots of people die harvesting these landmines which have been there for decades. A significant number of harvesters are children.
Boingboing actually had an article about something similar a while ago. The footage alone is such poor quality that we rely on the voice and text accompanying to decide what we're seeing. This can be misleading, as you will find here...
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/12/errol-morris-on-phot.html
~D. Walker
Ant 177# Ditto
"And there is a lot of sets of dead guilty eyes too.People that would cut your head of with a butter knife on youtube"
Televised execution by electrocution, a hot topic in the US media, is hardly less barbaric.
> I have Afghan friends that were some of the kindest and generous people you will ever meet. That want nothing but the freedom that most of us have.
how is Junis doing these days?
Well said, Bull.
If wars were run by soldiers, you sound like a guy I'd have on my side. Unfortunately though, it isn't, and good people are killed for politics, on all sides, all the time. Good people are sent to do the tasks that the senders wouldn't do themselves, and individuals carry the sins of their master.
I agree 100% that nothing about war is black and white, but that's equally true for all sides. Just as I have no clue as to what goes on in the mind of a soldier, serving in a foreign war; I can have no clue what goes on in his enemy's.
I can only assume both are as human as I, and try to understand why they do things things they do (for money, love or fear).
#180 what does capital punishment have to do with this? Are you saying we should keep Gitmo open? Other wise I don't think we have the time to scold all of the Taliban for there bad behavior. And I dont agree with capital punishment either. So kudos on that.
and what would happen if the NATO countries just went home?
@#172, JOSSAHA:
30% Vietnam KIAs were draftees (17,7241). Draftees made up 25% of troop strength.
www.mrfa.org/vnstats.htm
Are we our brothers keepers?
#182 That is something me and some of my friends talked about a lot. That we would do the same thing here if invaded. And just because we kill our enemy does not mean we dont respect them. Respecting your enemy keeps you alive. Knowing that they will fight as hard as you do to stay alive breeds respect. But in the microcosm that is a area of operations politics, what ever fictional god you believe in takes a back seat. In that moment we take lives to keep ours and our brothers life from being taken.To make it home to see our families. And if taking that persons life is what it takes. well at that time it's a small price to pay.
so, the trick is to not be there in the first place.
#181 He's still a prick who borrows shit and never brings it back. But,Yasser (Alexander)who was the terp for our squad is doing great and still prefers us over the Taliban.
Are we our brothers keepers?
We pick and choose; there are too damn many of them, by any count. At a terrible and ongoing cost, Bush % Co. decided we were our oil-rich Iraqi brothers keepers; our Sudanese brothers, not so much.
there is no absolution in accepting immoral orders.
Well seeing as I don't believe in a god absolution is not one of my worries. What I do believe is being in the arms of my wife and children. That's all the absolution I need.
and where is your limit?
http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2008_The_Boy_in_the_Striped_Pajamas/2008_the_boy_in_the_striped_pyjamas_wall_002.jpg
Although I completely understand the moral appeal of fighting the Taliban, it will fail for several reasons.
One, trying to impose cultural values on another country never works. Leaving Middle Earth for a moment, let's move to the Federation. The Prime Directive is pretty much the most brilliant political concept ever conceived. People have to develop on their own, Encouragement is fine. Keeping them out of your business is fine. Intervening will always fail. The US is al-Qaida's greatest recruiting tool. US and European foreign policy is almost solely responsible for the rise of violent radical Islam.
Two, our acceptance of collateral damage has grown out of control. The first rule of War Club is YOU DON'T BOMB WEDDING PARTIES. The second rule of War Club is YOU DON'T BOMB WEDDING PARTIES. Not only does it mobilize the citizenry against us, we become as evil as the monsters that we're fighting.
Three, you can't win a war in Afghanistan. The Soviets tried it. If they couldn't do it, we can't do it. It's a reprise of the US in Vietnam or Napoleon (or anyone else) in Russia. It's doomed. So why are we fighting a war that we can't possibly win?
@185. Thanks for the correction. However as you might have guessed I have a great deal more sympathy for the draftees, and the dodgers, than for the volunteers.
Bulldelta @183, the wee sub-topic was the dubious practice of televised or you-tubed executions, but that's obvious from the context.
I didn't mention Gitmo.
The Taliban should not be scolded for fighting off a foreign invasion, which is the basic reality of this situation.
Our basic premises are far apart... Look I'm not a hypocrite - If the United States faced an invasion of it's territory I'd happily condemn the invader, but really this has never happened, except arguably during the American Revolution.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill
The Taliban should not be scolded for fighting off a foreign invasion? The taliban are foreigners themselves. They exploited the mess created by other powers. They care nothing for the Afghans and would mostly like to kill them all.
Mill was not justifying aggression. The only assault America suffered in the middle east was on the wallets of a few American wealthy. A janissary is just a harlot of a kind.
The Taliban is a group. Not a country. 9/11 was a direct attack from a group that the Taliban not only sponsored but gave refuge to.As bad as you want it too. Your kum ba yah attitude only works in our part of the world.
So, if Russia were attacked by a dirty bomb made by Chechens operating in the USA, New York should burn in nuclear fire? Or are there special rules for America? And is not the 911 group from that good friend of America, Saudi Arabia? The country sharing a name with the House of Saud? That House also friend of the House of Bush? You begin to disappoint me bull, you reveal sloppiness.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1995
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html
Radical Islam has been at war with us a long time.
Long before we ever confronted it on this mass scale.
and how does any of the above justify killing one million Iraqis during the removal of an American-installed dictator and laying waste to impoverished Afghanistan?
There has been some sophistry about how NATO doesn't bomb wedding parties on purpose (no, no, they were aiming at the gentleman in the fourth row, y'see). Of course someone might just as well argue that AQ targeted the Twin Towers rather than the people in them...
Sophistry.
Nonetheless it's worth remembering the occasions during the Korean War when US troops and pilots were obeyed orders to massacre refugees, and did so, the poor saps.
Back to the one of the topics - maybe the BB team could rustle up some NATO friendly fire footage? You know, for people with a different perspective on geo-politics whose thirst isn't slaked by this offering.
Never said I agreed with Iraq. And we are not laying waste to a impoverished Afghanistan. The Taliban and every other person who wants to kill an American are.Now you are getting sloppy. And as far as the Chechens dropping a dirty bomb and such and operating out of the US. Now you are spiraling into what if's and fiction fit for Hollywood. Just stay with the facts.And with that note. I bid you a good night.
why is so hard for people to remember?
Takuan @198, the point has already been made that Pashtun live on both sides of the European-drawn Af-Pak border. It's not credible to say the Taliban are foreigners in Afghanistan.
http://cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
http://essays.ssrc.org/sept11/essays/khattak.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29
go on bull, read it, they can't throw you in the stockade if you don't tell them.
Bull22delta@202
#...the shores of Tripoli...#
Do you see the problem? The best thing for the middle east would be a United Arab Republic.
Anyhow, good night yourself.
I believe lunatic fringe taliban ideology is foreign to Afghanistan. Afghanistan is an ancient country and had its own cultural equilibrium. I personally find much of it distasteful but that is none of my business. It was foreign meddling for the sake of oil that sprouted this devil's harvest. As to the Pashtun being the taliban (as if they were the core), no more so than if the Hatfields and McCoys were taken as the soul of the USA. Nay, it's all excuse making to salve conscience and justify theft. The worlds is full of benighted backwaters ignored for their poverty and lack of strategic resources. Why is Afghanistan so worthy of uplift?
Takuan@213
Ideology knows no borders apparently, not in this joined up world.
Just for laughs, the Rambo III freedom speech-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvQjDvnPpCk
Im retired. And, again. Never said there have not been civilian casualties. And? Welcome to war. There has yet to be one by us or any other nation that has not had civilian casualties. So, what is your point? It's nothing..there is no point. You are beating a dead dog.
#212 that is the most logical and intelligent thing I have heard all night. I wish they could pull it together enough to do something like that.
so you kill because you are told to, because you are paid to and because you can.
@213 "Why is Afghanistan so worthy of uplift?"
Because it borders Iran, Pakistan, China and the Russian near-abroad? Because lilypads work best in series?
Whatever the reason, I am certain it's not because NATO really, really, cares.
I've often wondered what happened to the 1978 Afghan National Women's Baseball Team (can't find a pic after a brief search) after the Mujahadeen takeover. I hope they escaped or survived.
I'm blushing Mr Bull, but of course it's not my idea. I think I first heard of that notion in the film _Lawrence of Arabia_. You can probably remember how that one ended.
Ken Macleod imagines a (near-future) UAR in his _Night Sessions_, but the route taken in his future history ain't pretty, even by C20th standards.
I bet there's a lot more on the subject in Arabic too.
Radical Islam has been at war with us a long time. Long before we ever confronted it on this mass scale.
The UK and other western 'democracies' redrew the map of the Middle East at the end of WWI, creating untenable nation states and improbable governments. The US put the Shah's father back in power in Iran and kept him and his son there, ultimately leading to the Islamic Revolution. We've been fucking with the Muslim world far longer than they've been fucking with us.
So I've read this whole comment thread, despite my better judgement on seeing that it had topped 200 comments (I've been finding that I tolerate excessive vitriol poorly).
To my surprise, I found a calm, rational discussion (with some carefully reasoned debate), among several native North Americans, many of whom are from the U.S., and one of whom is a U.S. armed forces veteran of both Iraq and Afghanistan.
From my outsider's perspective, I wasn't sure that such a thing was even possible in the current climate of political discussion in the U.S.
I think a threshold has been crossed.
And thank-you all for one of the best discussion threads on BB ever.
(I mean, minus the "Rah! Dead bombers! Rah!" people.)
hmmph! I confess to me it reeks of eternal vanity and fail. I've had this discussion too many times before and take little solace in the microscopic progress.
The progress is that the discussion could be had, on an Internet discussion forum, with the people involved, at all.
A few years ago, I would not have thought it possible.
Takuan: you need to educate yourself on the origin of the Taliban. A couple of times in this thread you've made statements about them that are just plain wrong. I'm sure this is because the facts about them are not widely circulated, but it is still worth seeking them out. I recommend "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid. It's a little dated now, but well worth reading for historical perspective.
The word "taliban" literally means "student". The modern Taliban movement sprung up out of radical Afghan madrassas in a region that was being utterly brutalised by local warlords. They gained support with the local populace by being utterly, utterly ruthless (and effective) in fighting them off; they genuinely were an improvement on what came before. You can't argue that they, or their ideology, are foreign to Afghanistan in any way - except in that Islam itself is foreign. You *can* argue that it's stupid to try to apply hard-line theocratic rule which appeared to work on a village-by-village level to a country as diverse as Afghanistan, but the Taliban didn't learn that as they expanded.
It was the warlords (and then, only some of them) who were US-backed in the Soviet invasion, not the Taliban. This is complicated by some of the warlords then later siding with the Taliban as a way of shoring up their control of an area, or cementing their political position; others did not; some have swapped sides so often it's impossible to really pin them down. Rashid Dostum is a prime example of this.
to bull22delta and other proud soldiers who fight "to defend our homeland" thousands of miles away from it: please explain how the following fits with the concept of bringing democracy to those countries, or defending yours. Thanks.
http://educate-yourself.org/du/falloutoniraqbabies12jun08.shtml
the term is abused, and not just by me. The fundamental(ist) fact remains: without outside money and guns they'd still be picking lice out of their beards in obscurity before they died out in one woman-hating generation.
(and that will be the last mucous cocoon ruined tonight, good night!)
Ant, no one seemed to go for the Federation line. Is that the limit? Have we seen peak fantasy-relevance in our lifetime? Sweet Jesus, no..
We may as well just pack up and go home, I no longer want to live in a world that cannot be influenced, nay, inspired by the loftier notions of an otherwise bat-shit-insane Hubbard-wannabe*.
*Sorry, last link is only tangentially related. Still, another Hubbard-wannabe of sorts. Why Glenn, why?
I have a buddy who was in the Marines that was seriously injured by an IED. He was lucky...he survived. So I have little sympathy for the two terrorists blown up in the explosion on that video.
As a matter of fact, it gives me a bit of a feeling of satisfaction that they can no longer do to anyone else what happened to my friend, and others he served with.
As a former Marine, I also just wanted to say "Thank you" to Bull for his years of service.
I highly recommend everyone read Sam Harris' 'The End Of Faith'. While I don't completely agree with Mr. Harris' position on torture, we are in an urgent situation, where suicidal murderers are coming within grabbing distance of nuclear war.
Also, please add to your lists of religious atrocities the 'Honor Killing' of women by their own fathers, brothers, Uncles, cousins, nephews, etc.
The signs at the airports in these countries should say welcome to the fourteenth century, regardless of the prosperity or technological state of each country.
Innocent? Innocent of what? There are no innocents after religious indoctrination. There are no moderates, when it is a silent majority. Moderates are just a quiet crowd of chicken shits who supply funding and children for the religious warriors for whom I have more respect, such as it is. Moderates make the entire subject off limits.
Religious faith is the problem. Just as the religious faith of Bush, Rumsfeld, and most Americans is a real danger to world peace.
All of these nutjobs are in the mood for Armageddon. To hell with them all. Damn I forgot there ain't no hell. Shit! Kill 'em all let...Oh, just kill 'em all.
Why is it offensive to say kill 'em all?
They all fully expect their god to do the same to me, my wife, and children.
Unless of course they can suck my children into the living hell of religious ignorance.
like the religion memeplex, warmaking has it's own life.
Takuan, I'm am so sick and tired of this world's ignorance, not that I'm not just as ignorant and naive as most of us. If I could live forever, other than watching my children and grandchildren explore life and maybe coming to peace myself, I would like to be here when blind faith, both religious and secular, is long forgotten.
I'm at a loss for words to descibe the feelings I have for those that fall for this shit and want to kill or be killed for any reason. That anyone even looks up when someone says let's get those bastards, just amazes me.
I long for the day when self-defense is no longer a necessity.
On the bright side at least it isn't the 14th Century, when I would just be tortured and burned, along with any poor bastard I was forced to incriminate.
Personally, I believe in the prime directive.
But it doesn't apply here. There is a sense running through this thread that the people in Afganistan and elsewhere in the middle east are aliens that we should just leave to develop in peace.
But of course they are not aliens. They are us. Trace back family trees a few hundred generations, and they are most certainly your relatives and mine. And while it is tempting to ignore the suffering of such distant relatives and go back to collecting shiny things and feeling smug, eventually we will be forced to confront it as it will be at our doors.
Religious extremism is a stain on humanity, but it is very human. If those of us who value a rational lifestyle choose to ignore the threat of the imposition of religious rule, we had better prepare our children for living under some form of theocracy. And we are not immune in the west. Here in the United States we just had a president who believed he was fulfilling biblical prophecy.
Just as frightening as that is the prospect of a Taliban controlled Pakistan. Would it be better if everyone just went home and grew crops? Absolutely. Does anyone think that if we just pack up and leave the middle east that the groups that want to spread the the most intolerant brands of Islam and sharia will stop?
As distasteful as it is, a war now is infinitely preferable to a war once such groups seize a nuclear armed and industrial nation. Of course, killing people is not a solution in and of itself, but by meeting force with force we can allow other, less intolerant ideas to take root. Hopefully.
War is horrible, but the notion that violence never solved anything is simply a denial of reality. The taliban and other religious extremists, like the westboro baptist church, want to impose their views by force on those around them, effectively enslaving half of the population, and forcing all who do not agree with them to live in fear. Are we willing to allow that to happen?
Does anyone think that if we just pack up and leave the middle east that the groups that want to spread the the most intolerant brands of Islam and sharia will stop?
I think if we stop selling them guns they'll have to throw rocks at each other, and I can ignore that in peace.
Better yet. Give them exploding ammunition for their AK's.
Better yet, exploding ammunition for everyone!
DANLALAN@233:
Well said. Takuan's strange brand of ill-informed cryptoliberalism leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I agree that the Afpak situation is a global problem. Somebody mentioned Afghanistan as the first lilypad. This is true. If they take Pakistan, radical fundamentalists will have nuclear weapons. There's no telling what that would mean.
The surpression of radicalism is the best chance the Afghani people have of taking their country back. We just need to help them get a foothold in democracy and start the process of self determination before we can step back and let them clean up their own messes.
Dan, well said. The fundamental truth of fundies is the fun don't stop, until they're all dead and gone. And thanks to their faith, they welcome death, so threats don't work.
The three desert cults are all death cults, plain and simple. The capacity to believe on faith is implanted and nurtured by cults. The capacity to believe theological BS naturally leads to a capacity to believe ideological BS.
This is why religion is so insidious, it distorts or removes reason, and without reason...well you know...
If we, as a species, don't outgrow this ancient ability to believe without evidence and learn to lead our own lives instead of being led, we will all die.
Would the Prime Directive be practicable anywhere outside of the Star Trek universe? Really, none of your were ever bothered by the Federation never having any vested interests in star travel? I always felt this was so much more about 1960s one-world wish-projecting than any verisimilitudal or realistic world-building, SF-wise....
The important thing to remember is that Bad Guys are dying in Afghanistan.
Sure, Good Guys are also dying in Afghanistan, but the Important Thing is that Bad Guys are dying there.
-- MrJM
"If we, as a species, don't outgrow this ancient ability to believe without evidence and learn to lead our own lives instead of being led, we will all die."
For many people, the crucial aspect of choosing to believe any claim (or idea) is not the accuracy of the claim, but the physical and social consequences of accepting or rejecting the claim. Our brains are very good at deluding us into "believing" things that may be good for us as an organism that may well not be true. For example, we see patterns where none exist all the time, because the upside of correctly seeing a pattern that does exist exceeds the downside of seeing one when there isn't.
Human behavior follows a normal distribution curve. Most people can easily differentiate between things that are supported by independent evidence, and those which are true only as abstract ideas coming from an authority figure (shaman, priest, president, nuclear physicist, whatever), and are sophisticated enough to verbalize a claim that they do not believe to be true if they see it as being in their best interest. Having someone convincingly threaten to kill or truly socially ostracize you if you don't go along with whatever silly claim they might make is enough for most to cheerfully agree that yes, there are fairies in the garden. Some, however, are not able to make this distinction in the value of truth claims, and equate ideas that are supported by evidence and those supported only by authority.
For some, the potential loss of the social group made up by their co-religionists is a downside that far exceeds the upside of admitting, even to themselves, that the claims of their religion are contradicted by evidence. For the vast majority of human history this kind of unreasoning loyalty to the group, whatever their claims may have been, clearly has survival and reproductive benefits. Group loyalty is, after all, what has made us what we are (among a great many other things).
For these people, the only thing that will convince them that the claims supported by evidence are the better "choice", if you will, is to have the group authority figure they identify with tell them so. A depressingly large percentage of humanity really are sheep, and the "decide for yourself" ethic of modern liberal thought simply leaves such people as a commodity to be farmed. Witness the rise of televangelists. And the Taliban.
Religion creates an unchanging division, where it's either us or them. This is why this war is in fact a theological/ideological war of beliefs.
Most other problems can be resolved by economic means. Once we accept that our goals are similar and mutually dependent, our mutual prosperity creates relationships.
But when each group believes the other's ideas threaten not only their own beliefs, but the eternal lives of their children, all bets are off.
Sure the US and Europe have created enemies, but how many of our enemies have created cults of suicidal murders? Cults where parents, along with their community, celebrate their child's murderous act and suicide. Where neighbors gather with gifts to celebrate the good fortune of the parents, whose brave child has committed mass murder and suicide, and who is at that very moment preparing the way to heaven for their friends and family?
It is not like our hands are not infinitely more bloodied from our interventions and our support of monstrous dictators in Central and South America. Where are the Nicaraguan suicide murderers flying planes into buildings?
No, this is different.
I think a serious dialog among nations about outlawing religious fundamentalism will result from the upcoming Pakistan-India nuclear war.
the military complexes in the west use the same principles and methods as the fundamentalists to recruit their cannon fodder. Take away a few superficial ignorances and you'll find unself-examing marine the same as maddrassa educated mujdaheen.
As to lily-pads?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_theory
I like how this video shows that the Americans did not want to shoot, and held off while the kid was in the target area. Soldiers are people too, not mindless robots.
Canada will be gone in a year.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/695031
and when this sinks in, the UK as well
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8259818.stm
Takuan, do you seriously believe that there is some kind of equivalency between the admittedly flawed semi-secular west and groups like the taliban?
You are absolutely correct in your statement about the western military relying on the same kind of methods to attract the authority blinded portion of the population, but if they don't, someone will lead these people. Personally, I'd prefer them to be led by groups where religious ideologies are not the sole motivators.
You sound like someone who has realized that the world is not an ideal place, and therefore we should chuck the whole thing as a bad lot. That is really not an option though.
Few would argue with your incessant point that the western governments have done and continue to do dodgy things. But they are the only game in town.
The western corporate ethos of profit over all other considerations has produced real horrors is absolutely something we need to change. But that does not mean we should wring our hands and sit here in self-absorbed guilt until the barbarians really are at the gates.
Do you really advocate that we do nothing?
You have a mastery at providing evidence that the status quo sucks. So what? The status quo has ALWAYS sucked, unless you're the guy at the top.
I really look forward to seeing suggestions from you about how to achieve the changes that you clearly think need to happen.
Takuan, I completely agree, both military and religious organizations, in that order, are the oldest schools of leadership and indoctrination.
My opinion is that they are now so refined and work so closely hand in hand, that only by stopping the religious indoctrination of children will be possible to prevent the militaristic indoctrination of young adults.
Religious indoctrination starts at such an early age that it creates the neural pathways that will eventually make ideological indoctrination a literal no-brainer. Religious indoctrination truncates our thinking, it is a circumcision of reason, god is our first dictator. The lesson of never questioning authority, begins with gods.
firstly: yankee go home. Afghanistan is already lost and all the governments with troops there have admitted that. At least enough of the clear eyed generals and politicos anyway. The only way to secure it for western interests would be to kill every single person there and then build a tall fence. The Afghans themselves? In for a very rough time. But that fate was sealed years ago when money was flowing for Stingers and opium. Who knows? Maybe after a few years of taliban murder they may rise up en masse and deal with them themselves? You know, make their own destiny like even Iran is doing now, glacially slowly but inevitably after having their real chance at democracy decades earlier smashed by a puppet Shah.
secondly: do what it takes to become unaddicted to oil. Hang as many of the wealthy at home that like the status quo until they understand that it IS still treason even when rich people do it.
thirdly: make it clear to Pakistan that there are people in the USA that can't be led around by the nose and WILL act if anything unfortunate happens in the USA. They aren't fools, though they think you all are.
start there.
the military complexes in the west use the same principles and methods as the fundamentalists to recruit their cannon fodder. Take away a few superficial ignorances and you'll find unself-examing marine the same as maddrassa educated mujdaheen.
Pure bullshit, Takuan. And I suspect you know better.
The Taliban's madrassas teach ONLY the Qur'an. No math, no science, no other literature, no story time, no recess, no gym, no nothing. The victims ("students") are taught to memorize the Qur'an. That's all.
Even home-schooling wackos* in the West teach their kids to add and subtract. And if they didn't, in America at least they'd get swatted down.
(There are also sane madrassas that focus on religious education but take a broader view. I'm only talking about the Taliban ones here.)
___
*NB: Not every home-schooler is a wacko, just as not every wacko is a home-schooler. I mean the people who are both, and specifically wacko about home-schooling. Also, if you think I mean you, I don't.
the military complexes in the west use the same principles and methods as the fundamentalists to recruit their cannon fodder. Take away a few superficial ignorances and you'll find unself-examing marine the same as maddrassa educated mujdaheen.
That's got to be one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. I joined the military because I was waiting tables, broke, and thought it would be a good opportunity to better myself. I was "indoctrinated" into it at all. I chose it.
While I won't disagree that boot camp is a huge (and sometimes traumatic) mindfuck, once you're out of it and the realization of what you've been through hits, you *understand* the purpose behind it, and move on.
And you do have the ability to challenge orders while in the military...it's called the chain of command. Oh, and if you choose to leave the military there's no disgrace to your religion or family involved.
To compare a modern military person with an Islamic terrorist - many who receive a Western education far surpassing anything that American members of the military ever receive and *still* think that blowing themselves up for the promise of 72 virgins is a good thing - who is really the more ignorant?
The difference *is* religion. While racism is deplorable, religion, organized or otherwise, as a whole is the worst thing to happen to mankind ever. If you look back through the history of wars and other conflicts, just how many of them were begun over a slight to someone's religion perceived or otherwise?
It is the fundamental flaw of humankind. To believe that there *has* to be something greater than we are. It's crap heldover from a time that cavemen first discovered fire. Do away with it, and you'll do away with most of the wars tearing the world apart.
Thanks for the suggestions Takuan.
We should wean ourselves from oil for any number of excellent reasons. Check, with you 100% on this one.
Hanging the wealthy I need some clarification on though. Specifically what treason are we talking about here, and don't you think we should maybe have a trial first? Or if not, how about a level of income that you consider worthy of hanging?
On the third point: "making it clear" to Pakistan involves what? Threatening them with nuclear annihilation? I think we've probably already done that. And if it should come to pass that the taliban seizes power in Pakistan as is certainly conceivable, especially if they have Afganistan as a base from which to operate? What would you then threaten them with? They will have already sent us packing, and, oh, by the way, some religious fanatics actually believe their own bullshit, and really do think god is on their side. If the taliban comes to power in pakistan, don't you think we will have to do something, out of self interest alone?
you could start with the entire Bush family there.
I don't think the taliban will be able to seize power in Pakistan. I think the Pakistanis are clever enough to have you believe that if it serves their purposes.
Foetusnail@230 "...Also, please add to your lists of religious atrocities the 'Honor Killing' of women by their own fathers, brothers, Uncles, cousins, nephews, etc...."
I am sick to the teeth of this hypocritical line.
Most every time a woman is beaten or killed by a boyfriend, a husband or a father in the West it's also an 'honour killing'. These murders are about hurt pride and damaged goods too.
Yes, people are murdered the world around, but how many women are ritually murdered by their whole family, an action condoned by religious law and excused by apologists because people are murdered the world around?
You make me sick.
I apologize, rudeness happens in the Middle-East too.
Your warfare is ritualised. The flag, the pomp and ceremony, the genuflecting the constant sacrifice.
Oh it's great to look at, but I still think we need a new politics.
Bye.
Excuse me, not 'your warfare' sorry.
pps I absolutely love the Manchester Pride serenade to macho posturing everywhere further up BoingBoing.
A virtual sing-along would break the tension.
You mean our warfare.
See the problem isn't war or murder, the problem is religion, yes, all religion, and ideologies, any that fit the bill, that separate us into you and me.
Nail,
You have a monomaniacal obsession. You might want to get that looked at.
The weird part is he attends church.
It would appear that way from where you sit, but what you see is merely the result of my limited time, so I reserve comment to the subject I feel most compelled to discuss.
The fact that this war is indeed the result of our inept bungling in world affairs, seen successful by others, and the fact we are locked in a war of ideologies with Islam, not just fundies, but all of Islam, tends to draw my attention.
Over 40 years thinking about life, the universe and everything, which naturally leads to the study of beliefs, ideologies, and religion.
At this point it is not only clear that religion is the root of much evil, but is clearly the cause of most of our problems, due to the a fore mentioned divisiveness inherent in most religious dogma.
This reason I say this is seen in the comments of Jossaha, who, from reading his history, is clearly an apologist who likes to ignore the role of not just religion, but the peculiar psychosis that is Islam, in this tragedy.
What happened on 9/11 would not have happened but for the religion of Islam. Islam turned those intelligent middle class men into suicidal murderers. Islam collected the funds to pay the families of suicidal murderers. Islam subjugates and murders their own women. Islam murders heretics and apostates, the worst of the worst. And Islam stands silent and ignores the truth of the Qur'an.
The apologists cling to the one or two passages that admonish men to respect their wives and not commit suicide, while their holy warriors put into practice the thousand other passages that demand them to strike dead all who fail to recognize the justice and love of their imaginary friend.
So, no, I don't have time to comment on every article about unicorns and kittens. And yes, I am a deeply flawed, but spiritual person, who sees the wasted beauty that we make of creation.
Our inability to come to grips with the simple fact that we don't know shit, that there are no truths, that we don't know where we are or how this all came to be, and that we will never know what happens, if anything, when we die is unbelievable.
That we would then go on to kill one another, our own children, for centuries is mind numbing.
For years I stopped thinking about these things, but now I have children. Now I see the greatest threat to their lives is not drugs or video games, but religion. And being a rather old father it scares me that I will not have the chance to help them learn to protect themselves from those that would use religious beliefs to give them cause to slit throats and fly a plane into a building.
So, yes, maybe you're right.
Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Headlines aside, most people are really pretty nice most everywhere in the world.
Boo. Hiss.
I agree, but where else do religious people on a regular basis wrap themselves in explosives and nails and blow up a hospital or competing mosque? Where else do they use women to complete this murderous task, because we respect their religion too much to search them? Where else do they then throw a party to celebrate their sickening achievement? Where else do they pass the plate to support the family of the bravest of the brave? Where else? Nowhere.
All of this abhorrent behavior is part and parcel of the peculiar psychosis that is Islam.
Actually, Hindu mobs in India commit atrocities just as bad, but they don't have oil so nobody cares.
"Headlines aside, most people are really pretty nice most everywhere in the world."
Truer words have never been spoken, Antinous. I think this gets forgotten too much. People will almost always respond with kindness to kindness.
Why didn't they, in the face of overwhelming odds, use their peaceful faith to follow the great Hindu leader Gandhi's lead and respond with pacifism?
They would have had their country back years ago, they would have proven to the world the value of their religion, and they would have saved the lives of hundreds of thousands Iraqi men, women, and children.
Instead of working together to embarrass the US and rebuild their infrastructure, they murder each other to the tune of tens even hundreds of deaths per day.
Most of the deaths in Iraq are not directly the result of US bombs. The horrendous death toll in Iraq is directly due to sectarian violence. They are settling old grudges and fighting for control of oil revenue.
And yes, the US Middle-East policy sucks.