Video about wannabee amputee
I've posted before about body integrity identity disorder, a condition in which an individual has an overwhelming desire to have a limb amputated. ABC Catalyst posted a fascinating short documentary about an man who purposefully destroyed his leg with dry ice so that a physician would have no choice but to cut it off. "The next time I woke up, it was absolute ecstasy," he says. "The leg that I wanted to get rid of for all those years was reduced to a little bandaged stump." Catalyst: Body Identity (via Mind Hacks)
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Did he have a parrot on his shoulder? An eyepatch?
Fascinating. People are fascinating.
if only there was some way for these people to donate their unwanted limbs to actual amputee's.
Great, now I can't get "Florida" by the Butthole Surfers out of my head.
Reminds me of this Peter Greenaway film.
I can’t help but feel sorry for people with this condition. I have two close family members who are amputees, one for medical reasons and another through trauma. I guess their desire to be whole again is equal to the desire some have to be like them. That said, sometimes you have to make a judgment, even though the world looks down on you. Having first hand seen two people struggle to regain their lives after losing a limb and one at constant risk of losing another; I can say that these people need serious mental help, and not tacit approval or acceptance from friends and loved ones. I want my family, friends included, to come to me with any problem they have and I will hear them and help any way I can. In this case I would help by having them Double-Doctored into a mental facility so fast they wouldn’t know what hit them.
@2 If only that would work.
The New Yorker recently ran a profile of Vilayanur S. Ramachandran who has a pretty good hypothesis to explain this disorder. You can find it here:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_colapinto
Here is his paper on the subject:
http://cbc.ucsd.edu/pdf/apotemnophilia_caloric.pdf
You should all definitely, definitely, definitely watch a wonderfully fascinating documentary film by Melody Gilbert called "Whole" that came out a few years ago. It's all about this kind of thing. It's very sympathetic and sweet. Highly recommended. I think it's been on Sundance Channel before. She does have a myspace page--if you can't find it, you might check there.
@Tiny-Zombie: This isn't, at present, a condition with any known treatment or cure(aside from giving them what they want). Not like depression, or some of the more tractable flavors of psychosis, where paternalism can actually pay off with reasonable frequency.
I'm guessing that having friends and family freaking out at you doesn't make it any more fun and, in absence of any proposed treatment, seems pretty shabby.
Another movie about this I recently watched was Quid Pro Quo and it focused on some interesting (albeit dramatized) aspects of this.
http://www.amazon.com/Limbo-Bernard-Wolfe/dp/088184327X
http://100sf.blogspot.com/2006/10/6-limbo-1952-by-bernard-wolfe.html
A very good SF book about a whole society afflicted with this. One of those forgotten jewels.
This kind of story always makes me feel creeped out, especially the ones where people get sexual gratification from amputation.
An old BME piece with a voluntary hand amp (includes NSFW images)
http://www.bmezine.com/news/people/A10101/nohand/index.html
Completely fascinated by this.
@Phishrow: I agree, it is shabby. Honestly it is my gut reaction, and in contrast with everything about me. One of my best friends in college is transgender and that involves radical body-mod. It's a fantastic contradiction because I wouldn’t let a friend kill themselves over something like bipolar disorder, but terminal cancer, after I helped them live their life I would probably help them end it. I can't justify my opinion, I just feel strongly about it.
Great username BTW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgsUUFYLSoQ
Still one of the most intriguing conditions I've ever encountered. Soundprint did a great half-hour show on it, archived here:
http://soundprint.org/radio/display_show/ID/87/name/Wannabes
Parietal lobe dysfunction is implicated in a number of disorders, including somatoform, neglect, and possibly dysmorphic disorders. The similarity between neglect disorder and apotemnophilia is certainly suggestive.
This *does* bring up interesting ethical questions: how should we view the wishes of these persons to voluntarily amputate? If the disorder is neurological in basis, does that change our feelings towards these wishes, and if so, how? Does the presence or absence of a treatment affect our view? Are there other conditions -- such as gender dysphoric disorder -- that offer lessons, or should we treat them as completely separate ethical problems?
I can't justify my opinion, I just feel strongly about it.
That is a respectable position, well stated. +1 internet for you.
I've occasionally fantasized about what it would be like to, say, lose my left hand and design my own prosthesis that would include a human/computer interface that would allow me to type, play games etc. through a combination of sensors picking up nerve impulses and tendon movements. But that's based on 1) having absolutely no idea of the bioengineering issues/problems involved, and 2) having absolutely no intention of making it happen. (For one thing, I'd probably have to admit that I'll never learn to play the guitar.)
limbs pah! One day I WILL find a surgeon to remove my conscience and then you will all see.
Just like cutting only more so, this seems about the loudest cry for help/attention possible.
it would seem that someone with a name like "tiny-zombie" would be all over something like this, discarded tasty vittels and all.
See if they can do something about the chip on your shoulder. Kidding! Love ya!!
@ #7 agrant3d
I'm no expert in any medical subject, but I agree that amputee wannabees probably have some neurological condition. What's really sad is that there's probably some simple yet undiscovered therapy method that can fix this (like Ramachandran curing phantom limp pains with mirrors).
mirrors? when they have monitor screens in high def and all kinds of software?
,,,he played piano like a kid out in the rain,,,
Having met few, I don't buy that it is a neurological condition.(at least not in any of the cases i'm familiar with)
I think this is more similar to gender modification.
Many people (wrongly)see people with disabilities as being asexual, where as the wanna-bees often start as Devotees who hyper sexualize disability.
I've heard of this before, and still can't wrap my head around it. These people are out of their frackin' minds.
Obligatory reference to a fascinating old Atlantic Monthly article on this subject and the broader context of psychological diagnoses:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200012/madness
There are some documented cases of this as a neurological condition, Oliver Sacks has a chapter about this kind of disease / illness in 'The man who mistook his wife for a hat' - Sacks thinks it's to do with the loosing the sense of proprioception. e.g. the disgust at one's own limbs can occur following a stroke, which implies it can be caused by damage to some small part of the brain responsible for recognising the body as 'ours' versus recognising an insect moving on our skin is disgusting.
I think the urge to cut off a limb is a sane response to the incorrect low-level information the mind is receiving, at least in some cases.
There is no need to call this "body integrity identity disorder" as it fits neatly into the mental disorder category of body dysmorphic disorder. There is actually a reasonable percentage of people seeking plastic surgery that can be diagnosed with this disorder. Generally once the perceived problem is "fixed" the person will develop a problem with another body part. Most notable example I can think of this is Michael Jackson.
This doesn't have anything to do with Oliver Sacks Man who mistook his wife for a hat. That man had a visual agnosia - he could not visually discriminate between objects in his environment.
You may argue whether this is a neurological disorder. The reality is that all mental disorders have a neurological component. How could it be any other way? But as I said, this man's plight is subsumed nicely under the body dysmorphic disorder diagnosis.
@Halloween Jack #20:
I've occasionally fantasized about what it would be like to, say, lose my left hand and design my own prosthesis that would include a human/computer interface that would allow me to type, play games etc. through a combination of sensors picking up nerve impulses and tendon movements.
They're called "fingers."
I lost an eyebrow when I was a kid (don’t ask) – lets say I wanna have the other one removed, you know… for symmetry… is that the same thing as this?
"This doesn't have anything to do with Oliver Sacks Man who mistook his wife for a hat. That man had a visual agnosia - he could not visually discriminate between objects in his environment."
How about:
"Oliver Sacks has a chapter about this kind of disease / illness in 'The man who mistook his wife for a hat'"
So no, it's not the same case, but there are other cases of other disorders in the book.
You know, when I had a slight psychotic break from hypothyroidism a few years back, I actually considered removing my toes because they didn't seem like they should be part of my body (who knows?!)
So, creepy as it may seem to the reader and to me now, I can empathize with these people a little.
@ #35
Yes I see your point, I was thinking of the actual namesake of the book.
I still think body dysmorphic disorder describes the syndrome better than a specific impairment caused by brain injury, unless of course the problem arose after an acute brain event.
I wonder how many cases of ritual/religious mutilation have actually been instances of this disorder?
Homosexuality used to be listed in the DSM as a "disorder". (and imagine if medical science today could "cure" the gay "disorder" through genetic therapy.)
These people simply prefer their body to be a particular way. Their body, their choice, right?
Medical science needs to serve how each individual uniquely prefers their body to be. Those with legs who don't want them can have them removed. Those without legs who want them will have whatever prosthetics or tissue regeneration science can offer (and that the patient can afford).
Morphological freedom NOW!
(Again, this is another concern I have with the "universal healthcare" agenda. We already have a medical industry that conducts itself according to a professional philosophy of making people "normal" (sometimes euphemised as "healthy") without ever addressing what "normal" is supposed to be. Are gay people "normal"? Are women with breast implants "normal"? Is baldness normal or a disease? The principal-agent problem from our abused insurance system -- rather than paying out-of-pocket or from a Health Savings Account -- already makes this difficult to redress. A government-mandated system would codify it even further. Whereas consumer driven healthcare would put the power back in the hands of the patient -- where it belongs.)
No, that's a terrible position! It's exactly the same one used by homophobes and racists!
If it disturbs your sensibilities, that's your problem; don't project onto others.
I can't help buy draw a connection between body integrity disorder and gender identity disorder. In both cases the person fully believes that his/her body is "wrong" and nothing can avail him/her of this idea. The only real difference as far as I can tell is that in one we're talking about a leg, and in the other a penis.
p.s. Stelarc! (He added an ear to his arm.)
p.p.s. Genesis P. Orridge
I can't help buy draw a connection between body integrity disorder and gender identity disorder. In both cases the person fully believes that his/her body is "wrong" and nothing can avail him/her of this idea. The only real difference as far as I can tell is that in one we're talking about a leg, and in the other a penis.
No, no, no. I understand the similarity, but disagree strongly. In the "amputeee" case we have an individual who does not want to have a body part because it feels "wrong" or bad. In the gender identity case we have a general dysphoria with sexual characteristics felt to not match a gender identity. It is not as simple as "wanting to cut off a penis" - generally, the opposite gender body image is the idea, not a rejection/amputation.
Does that make sense? I am afraid I see amputee desires as a disease possibly with neurological basis needing treatment - and transgender surgery as transforming the body to match a healthy mental state, not create a handicapped one.
@ Zuzu #39:
I'm not sure I understand your point on how universal health care would affect morphological freedom.
Any American who wants to get plastic surgery or a sex change operation today has to pay for it out of pocket since private insurance doesn't cover those procedures. If they were living under a government-run single payer system that didn't cover those things then, at worst, they'd be in exactly the same position.
If your theory was correct then all the countries that currently offer universal health coverage wouldn't have clinics that offer those elective procedures.
Can't people just prefer to have bodies without a particular limb?
What about someone who prefers to be deaf?
Ah, but what about prosthetic limbs for amputees? Are those included or not?
Or, cochlear implants for children born deaf?
Who decides what the line between "necessary" and "elective" is? (Especially vis-a-vis the question of who pays?)
What about "diseases" such as erectile dysfunction and male pattern baldness? Funny how Viagra and Propecia are included, but hormonal contraception for women isn't.
Though I'm sure everything involved with pregnancy is covered... even though that's entirely elective.
@Zuzu:
You completely avoided addressing my point, which was that there is no more "freedom" to choose those things in the U.S. than there is under most government-run health plans.
This is one of those cases where I agree, somewhat tentatively, with Zuzu. People ought to have the right to control their bodies. However:
"Are gay people "normal"?"
Are pedophiles? There was movement in professional circles to make pedophilia a sexual orientation. Does you call for total freedom of the individual include them as well?
And what about the paraphernalia, which this condition might fall under. Do you include them as well?
ALL of them?
But that's a false choice. The real culprit is invoking insurance (or "coverage") at all.
However, by extension of the problem of misuse of insurance, if you think it's difficult to change corporate policy, it's far more difficult to change (national) government policy. And perhaps more importantly, it's far more politicized to change government policy.
(I look forward to the debates over reproductive rights, dietary autonomy, and so on, that will stem from the current push for universal insurance in the USA. There will also be the slightly less urgent debates, like how NHS currently pays for homeopathy treatments, IIRC. Aside: Not to mention the yet-another-identity-card and database abuses with a compulsory insurance system. It's not like census data was abused to incarcerate citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps during World War 2... oh wait. At least with compulsory car insurance you can choose not to drive. Oh, and of course, that with a non-cash based healthcare system, "undocumented workers" are even more excluded from access to healthcare, that otherwise they would pay to receive.)
I agree that there's a drastic lack of morphological freedom just about anywhere with the technical capacity for it.
But that's a false choice. The real culprit is invoking insurance (or "coverage") at all.
Zuzu, nobody invoked "insurance" in this thread until YOU decided to use the topic to launch another rant against the Universal Health Care boogeyman.
If you want to champion "morphological freedom" then be my guest. But if you use it as a ridiculous rationale for fighting government regulated health coverage then I'm going to call your ass out on it.
What do you think people mean by "coverage" if not insurance?
However, I also wish not to get sidetracked on that tangent.
Let us return to the more relevant debate on this thread: whether wanting to have a body part amputated is a mental disorder or merely a personal preference.
Zuzu, I must have pushed a button. I said "possibly neurological" based on the body-image, internal mapping ideas mentioned earlier.
People can prefer whatever they want. I believe choosing to acquire a handicap, loss of a limb or sense is a psychological disorder.
This is not the same as "choosing" to live with a disability ( deafness, blindness, accidental loss of limb ) in such a way as to overcome or even transcend the difference.
Choosing to acquire the disability... not the same.
psychotic break from hypothyroidism
What?!?
This is possible?
Google seems to think so ...
Only in so far as I'm highly skeptical of any claim that someone is "broken" and needs to be "fixed" just because their preferences, opinions, outlooks, or desires are "uncomfortably strange" by popular convention.
(Many people who have commented seem to be expressing being either "freaked out" or "fascinated" -- as one would from attending a Freak Show -- by this "condition". I honestly don't see the difference between this and women who want breast augmentation or men who get hair transplants. I don't even consider it as significant of an identity change as the gender reassignment surgery to which it's been compared.)
Why not? There's something vaguely religious (or fatalistic) about that argument. If "God" made you deaf, then you should be satisfied with that. But if you choose to be deaf, then you're some kind of freak or sicko.
Why should "God" or "nature" be the arbiter of what's correct for you, rather than you yourself?
(Then there's the whole issue of whether "disability" can be universally defined, or whether it's subject to personal perspective. Frankly, I feel "disabled" without access to my laptop and mobile phone. How am I supposed to recall something from Wikipedia without Internet access? Externalized data (e.g. writing) is just another form of long-term recall, after all.)
Very sad. This is a relatively simple neurological disorder that can be permanently remedied with a few hours of work in front of a mirror.
See more in this excellent New Yorker article, that apparently no one at Boing Boing has read.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_colapinto
@39 zuzu
An issue of heavy metal had stories set in freetrade zone. One was about a man who wanted to be turned into a anthropmorphic duck since he was addicted to a duck video game, hack of a plastic surgeon turned him into a kangaroo instead and when he sued the judge turned out to be the surgeon's cousin. He went the lobotomy/vr sim route intstead. Horrible times all around. heheheh
@42 quesarah
"I am afraid I see amputee desires as a disease.. and transgender surgery as transforming the body to match a healthy mental state, not create a handicapped one."
uhm if its a happy mind 'cause the body is how you want it then there is truthfully no difference between both peoples after sucessful surgery.
Aaaaand there is nothing healthy about a surgicaly altered transexual. I can't believe the number of patients who report that their sex organ's feel nothing compared to previously, and how they regret the surgery.
other than if you are an innie or outie, gender is a social construct and people should accept they are the gender they feel BUT with whatever organs they had the misfortune to be born with.
that is emotional me talking rational me says your body do what thou shalt.
I don't have a gender pref for the mind of who I date but I have a minor pref for the innie or outie aspect of who I date. heres hoping the world works to feeling the same or better.
This must be rooted in some kind of malignant self-hatred. Most people would only consider cutting parts off a person if it were someone quite vile that did something terrible to them or a family member. How a person could feel the need to slowly destroy themselves is below me. With all the people out there that would kill to have two arms and legs, it's sickening to think that someone would purposely maim themselves. I don't know whether I feel more contempt or pity for these "people"!
I find such complacency, um, unhealthy.
We just need better medical technologies to reflect our identities (gender, or otherwise). Breast enlargement in the 1950s was ghastly (i.e. "experimental"). Today, well, it does what it advertises.
On the other hand, penis enlargement technologies currently resemble the 1950s for breasts. There are options... but they all suck. When they're as good as women have today, men will quit their jobs just to wait inline to have it done.
I suspect that "realistic" swapping sexual organs will hinge on that: scaffolding for complex and highly vascular tissue.
As for an artificial uterus... keep tabs on ectogenesis research. (Until then, women rule. Literally.)
Zuzu:
"Only in so far as I'm highly skeptical of any claim that someone is "broken" and needs to be "fixed" just because their preferences, opinions, outlooks, or desires are "uncomfortably strange" by popular convention."
This is a strawman. No one in the psychological professions thinks this way. The measure is behavioral, does your behavior negatively affect your life. If you think that attitude is common you've been reading too many internet kooks.
"On what do you base your presumption of a neurological disease in the former?"
Based on the facts in the article:
"It’s very clear that this is a neurological phenomenon when is[sic] always been thought of as a psychological issue."
Did you bother to read it?
"Narration:
"They suspect it means people with BIID have bits missing from their brain’s body map."
It isn't about "morphological freedom" it's about having a defective body map.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lImaly19Yps
"Aaaaand there is nothing healthy about a surgicaly altered transexual. I can't believe the number of patients who report that their sex organ's feel nothing compared to previously, and how they regret the surgery."
Poor surgical outcomes are not the patient's fault nor do they reflect on the "health" of the patent's mind. Oh, and, Fuck you.
"gender is a social construct and people should accept they are the gender they feel BUT with whatever organs they had the misfortune to be born with."
Aaaaaand roll over so you can get fucked again. "Socially constructed" is highly problematic. The truth is that there is very convincing evidence for a neurological basis for both homosexuality and transsexuals. It is possible, I suppose, that socialization creates neurobiology. I don't know. Personally, I think you should be fucked with the organs you had the misfortune to be born with and then have them unceremoniously stuffed down your fucking throat.
First, a disclaimer: I have BIID. I am 40 years old, and have felt I should be paralysed "from the waist down" since the age of 4 or 5. I am the owner and main author of two websites:
BIID-Info.org - a resource site about BIID that contains the majority of academic writing about BIID
transabled.org - a multi-author blog discussing the experience of living with BIID.
I should point out that BIID does not express itself solely by a need to be an amputee. Some people, like me, need to be paraplegic. Other people need to be blind. Others yet need to be deaf. Dr. Michael First is currently completing a study to that effect.
Now, to address a few of the comments so far:
#6 Tiny-Zombie
BIID is rather misunderstood by the majority of mental health professionals, who, even with the best intentions, often manage to do more harm than good. In any case, there is no known "cure" for BIID through psychotherapy or pharmacotherapy.
#25 Bloodboiler
Perhaps there *is* a simple, yet undiscovered solution to BIID. Would you refuse me NOW the only thing known to help, because *maybe* in ten years they might find something less invasive? Frankly, I don't know if I can live another few years, let alone decades, with the agony of being in a body that feels so completely wrong.
#32 Apoxia
It is incorrect to say that the need to have an amputation (or be paralysed, or blind, or deaf) is a form of Body Dysmorphic Disorder. There is a significant difference between BIID and BDD - People who have BDD have an erroneous perception of their body (e.g. they perceive their thin body as being fat), whereas those of us with BIID know very well that our body are totally "normal", it's just that it feels wrong to have a normal body. Quite similarly to how people with Gender Identity Disorder feel that they are in a body of the wrong sex.
Invariably, once someone with BIID has "fixed" the body, there is NO further need for amputations/modification.
#36 Anonymous
Repeated studies have shown that individuals with BIID are neither psychotic nor deluded. Although I'm glad you can empathise with us in some way.
#39 Zuzu
While I agree with you by and large, there is a problem with this: Unfortunately, we need the assistance of the medical community to safely achieve our "goal".
#45 Zuzu
"Who decides what the line between "necessary" and "elective" is?" - Good question. Are the millions of circumcisions imposed on newborn male "necessary"?
#51 Quesarah
It is not about wanting to be disabled. It is not about *chosing* to be disabled. This is not a choice. I never asked to feel the way I do. My life would be a hell of a lot easier if I didn't feel this way. Besides, it's not about disability. Yes, we need an impairment, but our need does not stem from needing to be disabled. It is very much an internal body image issue.
#54 Anonymous
No, "a few hours in front of a mirror" does not resolve BIID. If it did, I guarantee you that the majority of the people I know who have BIID (that's quite a lot) would have done it.
Besides, if it was that simple, do you not think that people like Ramachandran, First, Ryan, McGregor, and other neurologists and psychiatrists would have presented this as a solution in medical literature? They haven't, because it doesn't work.
I realize body dysmorphic disorder and gender identity disorder aren't the same thing, but they're similar enough to make the consensus on "treatments" seem hypocritical.
Yes, I know, gender identity disorder involves a lot more social baggage and identity than the seemingly simpler feelings of amputee wannabes. But in one case, people are encouraged to modify their bodies to match the gender they wish for, and in the other case, I don't know what kind of "treatements" are prescribed exactly, but last I heard they were ostracizing and taking licenses away from surgeons who performed "unnecessary" amputations. (A doctor in the UK several years ago who performed a few amputations was hounded, if I remember correctly.)
I'd like to hear how a psychiatrist could reconcile those positions, telling a person they can or should reshape their body if it's a matter of gender, but that they should just live with it and try to ignore their "dysmorphic" feelings if it's just a limb they want to be rid of. There are transsexuals who wish to have different bodies and decide not to get the operation, or can't afford it. There are probably lots of people who can't afford plastic surgeries that they'd prefer to have.
I have nothing personal against people who have sex change surgery, but I'm curious about the contradiction between society's mostly casual acceptance of that, compared with the almost universal disgust towards amputee wannabees. Because it's a form of body dysmorphic disorder with less social & identity baggage attached? Is that enough to make a difference?
That's an entirely circular argument. "Negative" is a subjective interpretation.
Also circular. Of course psychological disorders have a neurological basis! (That's like saying "digestion has a gastrointestinal basis".) Descartes was wrong; we are meat machines. All of our thoughts and feelings are "computed" as electrochemical reactions in the wetware that is our brains.
wylz -- My heart goes out to you. I wish I had more to offer than that but I don't.
Deidzoeb -- Transsexuals are not "encouraged to modify their bodies to match the gender they wish for" by their therapists. There is a required process one has to go through but it isn't as though anyone needs to be encouraged. As with BIID there appears little anyone can do to stop them.
Zuzu
"That's an entirely circular argument. "Negative" is a subjective interpretation."
Zuzu, honey, behaviorism isn't circular in it's reasoning. I've had considerable interaction with mental health professionals. No one thinks the way you claimed they do. They do NOT see their patients as "broken" or needing to be fixed. Therapists do NOT judge their patients as weird or strange based on popular misconceptions. Where did you get such a bizarre idea? Not from experience I can tell you that. This notion of yours must come from some book you've read. It doesn't reflect anything close to reality.
"Descartes was wrong; we are meat machines. All of our thoughts and feelings are "computed" as electrochemical reactions in the wetware that is our brains."
You know no such thing. Could you please show me where the Self is located? Yes we are made out of meat and when the meat dies we do too. But we really don't understand consciousness and it is your typical arrogance to claim that YOU do. No one does. Comparing consciousness to digestion as if they were the same is incredibly simplistic and naive.
But there is an even worse consequence of your ideology that "we are meat machines". If that is the case then all our liberal values go away. All we are left with is the eternal dictatorship of those in power. We're just machines and you can do anything you want to a machine. Your philosophy is Orwell's boot stomping on a human face, forever. Libertarianism leads pretty directly to fascism.
Reading this thread, I keep getting flashbacks to Dr. Adder.
http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Adder-Signet-K-Jeter/dp/0451151976
At the risk of derailing the thread:
"Libertarianism leads pretty directly to fascism."
That's interesting statement, can you sketch out a very (very) brief chain from one to the other.
As to how to handle HIID patients, it seems like history is filled with cases of medicine providing incorrect treatments for diseases that in hindsight look foolish or barbaric, whereas at least in this case, we recognise upfront that the treatment (surgery) is perhaps foolish and certainly barbaric, but it's all we have offer and it seems to provide a "cure" in a way that surgery for people with BDD does not (as per Michael Jackson and plastic surgery 'addicts'). Chemotherapy is frequently maligned as being almost worse than the disease (and perhaps the key there is 'almost'), but it is provided anyway.
You're totally mixing up or misunderstanding what I'm saying.
I said that it's circular to make an objective claim based on a subjective statement like "negative". You contradicted yourself, and seemed to want to ignore that just by using the word "behavior".
However, of course therapists make judgments! They may say they don't, but they do. (Because they're conflating being "judgmental" with "judging".) Appeals to "obviousness" and "abnormal behavior" abound. Not to mention the Rosenhan experiment. They're definitely working within a framework of normality and deviance from normality.
In your brain; besides "self" being an interpretive construct -- "the menu is not the meal" and all that. If you ask me "where in the brain", that's a bit like asking which raindrop constitutes a thunderstorm, or how much water does it take to be an ocean.
Nonsense. It means our values are based on material reality. From that, we create our own values. Decide what kind of person you want to be, based on your biology and knowledge.
zuzu:
"I said that it's circular to make an objective claim based on a subjective statement like "negative". You contradicted yourself, and seemed to want to ignore that just by using the word "behavior"."
I see, it seems you get all your ideas from Wikipedia and 40 year old studies combined with zero real life experience. The reality is that today every therapist believes that the patient is entitled to their symptoms. If your obsessive hand washing is not a problem then it's not a problem. If, on the other hand, your hands are cracked and bleeding and you are in his office because you can no longer hold down a job due to your OCD, well then thats a real world objective "negative" isn't it?
"However, of course therapists make judgments! They may say they don't, but they do."
No, they don't, really truly they don't. In fact they go out of their way to teach their patients (me) not to form judgments (I am not perfect, I still do it). This idea that you have based on something you read on wikipedia bears absolutely no relation to how therapists work today.
"If you ask me "where in the brain", that's a bit like asking which raindrop constitutes a thunderstorm, or how much water does it take to be an ocean."
I, my sense of self, am more than the mere accumulation of raindrops. I fully accept that my mind is the result of brain activity but I strongly feel that some threshold has been crossed with human or near human intelligence. The relationship is not linear. Insects are pretty much just automatons but it is not a straight line from them to us. There is a qualitative difference that merits attention. Self awareness, that conscious, thinking, self reflecting entity we call the Self is, I believe, something that exists in a sort of virtual state. even though it is entirely dependent on it's underlying biology to exist.
So I do see that abstracted self as existing within a mechanical body. Even though Descartes got the details wrong the overall sense is, I think, correct. To lose that and to treat all humans, and I'd include higher order primates too, as if we are machines only would be a horrible mistake.
hmmm....interesting yet strange.