TV preacher proves that only the Christian god is real
This TV preacher uses irrefutable logic to prove that only the Christian's god is real.
"Have you ever seen somebody working on a fence and takes a hammer and hit their thumb and go "Awww... Buddha!" You ever see them do that? How many hit a gold ball like I hit a golf ball and they go "Ohhh... Mohammed!" Why do they call that name? You know what they do? They go "Jesus Christ!" "Jesus Christ!" Why do they call that name? Because I believe when a person gets hurt or they get angry, they wanna blame who? They want to blame God.
I guess that settles it!
Gareth Branwyn (who sent me the link to this video) told me this preacher's line of reasoning reminds him of his grandfather's argument against hippies. Gareth's grandpappy used to say, "If God had wanted men to have long hair, he would have given it to them."
The preacher also shares many other equally profound insights with his rapt audience: Satan uses LPs to control people, and burn victims are lucky because they've gotten a taste of hell.
(Thanks, Gareth!)
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When I hit my thumb with a hammer I yell "F*CK!"
By this reasoning, what god do I worship?
Who's this "son of a bitch", and why do I worship him?
This is the intro to my next mix tape. I called it.
This has disturbing implications for anyone who has ever exclaimed, "Holy shit!"
The Holy Trinity: The Motherfucker, The Son of a Bitch and the Holy Shit
I believe that this is referred to as "taking God's name in vain". It was a sin, last time I looked.
Is the preacher trying to tell us that Christians are more sinful than followers of other religions?
Wait, so the Christian God is real because people are more likely to use his name in vain?
Yeah, I suppose "irrefutable" *is* one way to describe that sort of logic.
"well that was the greatest thing that could ever happen to that guy!"
ohhhh sally.
#1 RANDALL.Mammon,would be my first guess as noted
in U.S specie."In God we Trust"Thor,the hammer God
would accurately describe cause and effect of your
accident.The expletive would be appropriate in the
Senate where they pay homage to Janus the two faced,keeper of the door.Hedge your bet, Munchkin,
and give a wink-wink,say no more to His Nibs,he's
heard it all before and is so boooored!
Wait! Kenny Loggins and Michael J. Fox are Satanists??
Oh, dear.
I really hate straw men. There are a lot of good arguments for Christianity, and this guy makes me forget that they exist.
Loved the closing credits with the 70s style synth and fanfare ("Everything is Terrible!")
Actually he is wrong about Buddha and Mohammed, as there is no claim to divinity (e.g. in Islam Mohammed was a prophet).
When these pseudo-preachers are interpreting scripture and not bearing witness, it is known as false prophesy.
In the words of Rev. Ivan Stang, "I don't have a problem with Jesus, its just his fan club."
So Perry White worships the ghost of Julius Ceasar?
Yes, this guy is probably an idiot. All religions/world views are going to have their fools. I wish Boing Boing didn't single out only the moronic Christians.
So, if being horribly burned is a sure-fire cure for hell why isn't he out there setting people on fire instead of preaching to them?
(Not that I really want to give him any ideas, of course, or anyone like him.)
The Muslims start all things with "Bismiallah" which means "In the name of Allah"...
This is the kind of half-assed theology that gives Christianity such a bad image. Not everybody who loves Jesus thinks this way; unfortunately there are enough closed-minded, uneducated church-goers who don't think for themselves, who are easily led astray by this kind of overzealous 'witch-hunting'--i.e. trying to find evil or satan-worship in every bit of secular culture. This guy would probably try to have me 'excommunicated', if such a thing were doable in the protestant churches, if he knew that I'm an Iron Maiden fan. I'd NEVER tell him I love Tool. And Jesus. I'm pretty sure Jesus isn't worried about what kind of music I listen to, but how I treat people... XD !
JESUS CHRIST!
Well then. Assuming Christianity is at least partially right after all, and there is such a thing as a place of afterlife torment, then watching this guy is also extremely lucky, for the exact same reasons.
looks like this guy is not even familiar with the seventh commandment.
I apologize for his apologetics. Argh.
Not all Christians are this guy.
@ #16 - YES. Guys like this televangelist give the rest of us a bad name. Please don't take him seriously. Not all of us are kooky and judgemental.
Thank you Random Royalty and Likeminded for pointing out that he was wrong and an idiot . . . I would have been further confused, if it wasn't for my massive third degree burns that showed me the way.
@2 "Who is that "son of a bitch" that you keep "worshiping"?
Well, apparently it's Jesus Christ. Duh! :D
It all makes sence now. Why did I never thought of that ?
Anyone consider that this may be a parody of some sort? I mean, "Everything is Terrible?"
Oh well. Poe's Law and all.
This arrow has fallen well short of the mark.
Honestly, if you have to torture logic that badly to try to make your point, aren't you just protesting a bit too much? Sure, the history of relition is 99.9999% torturing of logic, and the rest is probably self delusion, and I'm talking ALL religion,not just Xianity. (except for the flying sphagetti monster, of course)
Muslims would consider it sacrilege to include Allah in a curse, likewise calling the Prophet Mohammed PBUH into such trifling affairs might cause you great grief in Islamic society. And you don't pray to the Prophet, he is not God.
It just doesn't work that way for Buddhists, you would be showing that you are totally unelightened. And it would be more along the lines of "Nirvana be damned" or such.
Usual specious clap-trap from a preacher free-associating from the pulpit. I had to endure one once going extemporaneous about gays and walking the streets of San Francisco and getting the googly eye. I think he was latent and someone there called him on it for slumming.
He's also probably the one who passed around the sheet of paper about the Russian conversion where the drilling rig penetrated hell and the wildcatters all got converted because they could hear the screams of the damned. When in reality it was this -> http://atlasobscura.com/places/gates-hell
Most Christians aren't this lost, lordy, some of us even play D&D which is based on that trilogy written by a Christian.
Unfortunately, my boss does belong to one of those churches like this guy's and every so often lets the rest of us know that we might be putting our souls in eternal peril because we don't belong to the right uneducated version of this whole spectrum of religion. He believes that most Christians aren't Christian.
To be fair to the televangelist, I'm a perfectly rational person and I also feel 100% evil come over me when I hear "Take My Breath Away."
Jesus isn't God, he's the son of God. What bible is this guy this guy reading?
Every Christian TV evangelist needs to be remember Mathew 6:5 and 6:6:
Frickin Hypocrites.
@Astin
Never thought of it that way, but since Joseph wasn't Jesus biological father...
Though, Jesus was probably spared most of the small town whispering as they had to run off to Egypt to avoid the Herod baby killing pogrom.
LOL, these Everything is Terribles are great >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFvTAH2XgMg
my Malaysian mother in law says ya allah when she hits her thumb.
Ok, I guess my mother in law did not get this memo. Each time her knee hurts, she goes 'Maha Ganapathi, save me!!' . And we Hindus casually say "Hey Ram" when shocked or upset.
Also Muslims say "Ya Allah" or "Ya Hussein" sometimes but I don't know if it is forbidden.
Behind closed doors you are. You just hide it in public. I grew up around it and have heard my friend's parents plenty of times.
@Gollux Tolkien, christian? Bwahahahah
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/00001756
http://www.simontolkien.com/jrrtolkien.html
I'll give you Catholic, but let's not start using youtube preacher type logic to defend the christians who aren't like that.
Can he tell us what the 'H' in 'Jesus H. Christ' stands for?
really?...lessee..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKyEo-P4zik
...mmm..nope, well only when I open my eyes
When I hit my thumb with a hammer or something, I blame Bob Saget.
Ahhhhhggggg!! BOB SAGET!
My old Pentecostal Church of God youth minister insisted that God has to exist, because something must exist before you can deny its existence. My fellow church goers lapped it up. I'm glad that guy never had a TV show.
@25 DWITTSF
Herbert
#16NYCTERIS##17 MISS JESS I remind you of 1 Tim 4.1"The inspired utterance says definitely that in
later periods of time some will fall away from the
faith,paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teaching of demons"Apostasy is the
handmaiden of Christendom "looking through a glass
darkly"Christianity "The Way" surmounts all with
equanimity and a lightened heart.Looks like things
are going according to schedule.
@enochrewt Probably the same as most Christians, where Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - one God, three persons. Jesus is not entirely unlike an Avatar of God.
And of course the argument falls apart when you realize that neither Mohammed nor Buddha are deities. Perhaps calling out Yahweh or Allah or any number of Hindu gods would be a more appropriate example.
What a bunch of dicks - leave my God alone. Go pick on Allah or something for awhile. Whats the matter? Scared to pick on Islamics? I have yet to see a BB post or commenter make fun of someone promoting belief of Allah.
Thank goodness when you pick on a Christian's beliefs, all he does is whine a bit, or maybe sulk a little.
By Crom! What's a barberian to do.
@23: there are many hypocritical things that people do in the name of Christianity.
I think one that many [Christians] overlook is Matthew 7.1: "Judge not, that ye be not judged." I think this is very important, people should be accepting of people of all types not judging and condemning them for their lifestyle or DNA.
Hey Tom, I think this TV preacher is funny. I'm not making fun of your god, and I've never made fun of you or your beliefs. You contribute a lot of good stuff to Boing Boing, and I appreciate it.
I've read the comments. Not all Christians are along the same lines as this guy? I'm shocked - I thought they all were nutty whackadoodles. I'm glad y'all pointed this out to everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkDaR2gQDM4&feature=related
I think you all are missing the point:
KENNY LOGGINS IS SATAN'S MINION
"I wish Boing Boing didn't single out only the moronic Christians."
I guess it's hard to find non-moronic people who believe in an almighty creator.
In all Jesus' years as a carpenter I'm sure his hammer slipped once or twice. So what do you suppose He yelled when he hit his thumb? "Me!" perhaps, or maybe "Dad!!?
@FAILIX
Religion loves people who think in black and white. Sadly, you're crossing that line.
OK - this guy is funny - well, I assume he is, I didn't watch the video. It's just that normally in one of these posts, Takuan and a few other regulars try to get my goat on the subject of Religion (not necessarily Christianity) The actual post is usually harmless, like this one - it just gives some commenters another reason to start up the God/Jesus bashing. At this point though, most of the regulars have figured out that I'm not much of a Christian.
however funny this video is, there is an unamusing correlation between fundamental reverence of the bible and/or 'savior' and complete lack of respect for scientific method, and logic.
yet these people who believe the rapture is upon us, and believe in talking serpents, 900 year old men, and human parthenogenisis, are making decisions on where my tax dollars go? no sound, reasonable, logical human being could take a look at religion and say "hey, this make sense, let me get some of that."
the end of the world isn't coming from this 'god,' it's coming from us basing our decisions on his alleged existence.
i'm praying for rain, and i'm praying for tidal waves.
Brainspore, maybe he let loose with a little of the old "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani"? The carpentry as a prefigurement of the cross?
When the starting point of a group's belief system is "a man who lived over 2000 years ago, born to a virgin, was the son of the invisible man in the sky", it's not surprising that there are disagreements within the group of what logically follows.
***furthermore...
his logic is entirely bass-ackwards.
the christian god "is" the muslim god. they wouldn't yell muhammed because he's just the prophet. yaweh, god, lord, allah, same thing, same "person," the only difference in islamic/judeo-christian theology is which prophets you choose to recognize. the god the 'father' is all the same.
A modern-day Saint Augustine.
I really enjoy this stuff. I've heard crazier stuff than this from pulpits, and as long as knuckleheads like this guy keep ranting, the doubters will always have plenty of fuel. It's all part of a beautiful plan.
The fact is that there is no 'proof'. If we Christians could prove our beliefs, faith would not be required. Faith is the core of a relationship with Jesus. He's not gonna make anybody do anything, so you monkeys are free to mock us and our beliefs.
I am a born-again Christian, He changed my life in every way, and there is a magic in my life and in my heart that you can't understand until it happens to you. I hope that every one of you comes to know the joy that fills my heart, no matter what crap comes my way. It's wonderful. I highly recommend getting to know Him.
Um, the religions themselves don't hold that, Cognitive Dissonance. Sure, YHWH, God, and Allah are all monotheistic sky-gods, benevolent, omnipotent, etc., but none of those religions holds that they're interchangeable, or that one is an aspect of the others. You might be more respectful of what the religions say and think about themselves, regardless of what you or I have learned from studying religions, mythologies, etc., comparatively.
@Tom Hale
Whats the matter? Scared to pick on Islamics?
I guess they are and for very good reasons (who wants to get their head cut off?). As long as it stays at insults and whining they can make fun of Christianity though. :)
@Gollux
Religion loves people who think in black and white. Sadly, you're crossing that line.
You should have picked someone different for this accusation. I'm everything but a dualist.
#47
Of course they're not interchangeable, because they are all the precise same 'deity.'
jews believe in god
christians belive in god and recognize jesus as the prophet and son
muslims recognize all the above with the addition of the prophet muhammed
and mormons don't believe in hummamed, but belive in john smith.
Jesus was a jew, and preached about 'god the father' at jewish temples.
I mean, the old testament is the torah, and christians still recognize the god from the old testament with the whole moses and garden of eve business.
they all build off of each other, with mormons being the most recent iteration.
what would lead you to believe that they're not interchangeable?
@Tdawwg, Cog's angle was more along the lines of how can one claim what god is being referred to when I say, "God damn it!"
Being the a singular "god", it would then of course be interchangeable with any of the religions he mentioned.
Jimmy Buffett said it best: "Religion's in the hands of some crazy ass people."
You forgot Zeus-Jove!
Historical fact and the texts speak of the three deities as separate: Allah is Allah is Allah, the Koran doesn't speak of YHWH. The adherents of the religions also seem to think thusly: try telling an Orthodox Jew that they're also worshiping the Christian God, and let me know how that works out for you!
Jesus was a Jew, but the Christian God isn't YHWH: Jesus didn't write the New Testament, on which Christianity is based. It's "historical fiction," if you will, but doctrinally the Xtian God is NOT YHWH.
Indeed, historically they "build off of each other," but doctrinally--the issue at question--the three religions and their deities are quite distinct.
Troofseeker, there's been many times when I have tried to be a "born again Christian." Some of the times I really felt that I was saved - this was when I was a teenager. But always, a few days later or a week, I would go back to the same old life. These days, I still go to church, but I get nothing from it. I would love to have whatever magical thing that a true believer has and not doubt what our bible teaches - and have asked for that ability many times. That would make life so simple. I just don't know if I have what it takes anymore. Don't get me wrong - I believe there is more to existence than what we have here in this life, but I don't think the bible was meant to be taken as literally as we are taught to in church. Plus, the bible has been rewritten and changed so many times, which version should we read? Why were some books left out? It's very confusing sometimes.
I still say a prayer though before I enter a burning building.
#46 TROOFSEEKER
You are aware, that born again christians experience the same fervor for Jesus that Cubs fans have for their team? Same brain activity, same chemical release, same faith for something that's hopeless.
Jesus is the placebo effect for reality.
He's the Che Guvera of the bronze age. It's not faith, its you reading a book which has been translated x ammout of times, and copied by hand for 2000 years, from a collection of books, some of which deemed useful as scripture, other texts now gnostic, based on the accounts of people who never met jesus, whose stories don't corroborate, and who comes from a period of time where people thought mermaids were real and the earth was flat, and that the americas and australia didnt exist. That is not faith my friend, that is plain old ignorance. Your "faith" is built off of the assumption that things in the bible were true, which they weren't. True believer sydrome is a terrible thing.
#52
Well of course you can't go backwards through the evolution of the religion and expect it to work.
Obviously an O-Jew wouldn't say that YWH is a Xian god.
But then tell me at what point does the Old Testament (jewish text) deity become an entirely new and different god in the New Testament.
For Christ's sake, Jesus claims to be the son of god, AND traces himself back to king solomon, david, and adam/eve!!!
And why are jews and christians refered to as "people of the book" in islamic texts? It's for all intensive purposes, the exact same god.
Um, no, it's three different gods as considered by those religions. Take off your George Frazer-comparative religion cap and maybe read the texts of each religion? Scripture is NOT ethnoculturalreligious history: you're asking revealed wisdom literature to do the work of nineteenth-century and later rationalist historical scholarship, two VERY different discourses with two VERY different knowledge-claims.
I think wherever in the NT Jesus says, "I gots the new stylez, y'all" is the key passage: I forget the real line, obviously, but Christ says at a few points in the Gospels how he's here to clear away the old stuff and bring in the new. You could always READ the texts in question for yourself....
The fact that the Xtian God is a triune one--father, son, holy spirit--is another distinction from Judaism, in which YHWH is sole and indivisible.
Islam's concept of the Ahl al-Kitāb is speaking historically: indeed, as we agree, the three religions are historically linked, however doctrinally separate. It's Islam's way of being ecumenical: "we all sort of kinda agree, and while the rest of y'all aren't Muslims, and therefore inferior, at least you aren't pagan apostate heathens, fellow book-people!" Nice of them!
@Tdawwg:
Er... yes, the three Abrahimic faiths share the same god. Jesus was raised Jewish and basically had the message that we can ease up on all the day-to-day rules provided we remember to love god and help each other out. Because god is quite a nice entity when you get to know him.
Mohammed was raised as a Christian (well, the local equivalent at the time). After establishing Islam he still recognised Jesus as an important prophet along with the previous (i.e. Jewish) prophets, and started out saying that we need to take some aspects of Judaism and Christianity, and that we need to love god and to help each other out. Because god is quite a nice entity when you get to know him, even if there are a few rules we ought to be following.
The practice of each religion is different, but ultimately those three and their offshoots are still rooted in what I (and probably you) call the Old Testament.
@Cognitive Dissonance
"however funny this video is, there is an unamusing correlation between fundamental reverence of the bible and/or 'savior' and complete lack of respect for scientific method, and logic."
In my experience religion is all about respecting tradition, faith and basically testing your gut instincts. Science is all about relentlessly testing ideas and throwing out anything we can't prove. It's not a shock that they don't sit well together. (That said, I do know a few excellent scientists who are religious. I can't get my head around how they reconcile the two modes of thought)
"try to get your goat"? You big fibber! If your goat gets run over when you leave it tethered on the freeway, well, that's your look-out. But to suggest I intentionally go after yours? You cite one example, just one, where it demonstrates I engaged in direct personal mockery of you for your religious beliefs. I defy you. I may stomp all over what I consider silly and pernicious but the believer is not the belief. In fact, I ferociously support any person's right to buy into whatever bullshit makes them happy - so long as it doesn't do so at the expense of others.
#11
Please submit an enter video of someone from another religion professing this kind of fallacious logic.
We are not amused just because he is Christian.
http://www.answers.com/topic/to-all-intents-and-purposes
"intensive purposes" sounds fun, though.
#14
It's a lion
Get in the Car !
Er, no, Bugs, they're three separate deities. YHWH, God, and Allah. They're similar but different. Historically, they're linked; doctrinally, quite separate. Your last point
is correct, but not at issue here.I'm not going to argue here until some more of you get your bad arguments broadcast on TV.
But I'm not going to let "intensive purposes" pass. It's "intents and purposes."
As so often happens, Terry Pratchett came up with the perfect quote for this video:
(From Guards! Guards!, when he's talking about the Dwarfish gods)
someone scratch up a video of a fatuous rabbi pontificating on something, I can't do all the work!
it's all about maximizing your prophet.
A rabbi, a priest, and an imam walk into a bar. The bartender looks up and says "Is this a joke?"
@64
you forgot "oh primitive and outmoded concept!"
Scripture is NOT ethnoculturalreligious history
But any translation of that scripture IS.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/06/23/religion_iran/
@62 That depends entirely on what your doctrine ist.
Ha, MDH, "maximizing your prophet" is good.
Dunno, translations of scripture claim themselves to be living revelations of said scripture: so from a strictly doctrinal standpoint, any accepted translation is indeed the word of God.
Historically speaking, scripture is itself ethnoculturalreligious history; doctrinally speaking, it's the word of God. I'm of the former, historicist camp, but as a teacher I have to respect the latter, believing camp, and it's sort of fun to explain belief and believers to non-believers.
@54 - Jesus/Cubs analogy FTW. Go Sox.
Tdawwg:
I think that's the heart of the issue. Maybe I'm just missing or misunderstanding your central point?
My impression (I was raised a Christian but haven't cracked open a Bible for quite some years now) was that Jesus' message was all about changing the way we worship god, not about abandoning him in favour of another one. Christianity grew out of Judaism because Christians recognised Jesus as god's son and adopted his advice, while the Jews didn't.
After all, the three religions share a load of the same stories - Abraham and Isaac, the Flood, the Exodus, Moses getting the commandments, etc. If their god(s) did and said the same things to the same people throughout history, and their religions/cultures grew from one another and never said "let's throw the old god out; here's a new one", I think it's reasonable to say they're talking about the same entity.
Takuan, here ya go http://www.boingboing.net/2009/01/28/attenboroughs-respon.html#comment-392511
At the time, I thought most of your posts in that thread was designed specifically to piss me off - though, before the end of that thread, I realized it was all in fun. But, are you saying in that thread you weren't trying to tick me off?
@ Tdawwg - I only just saw your post at (63); it wasn't there when I started my first reply and was off the screen when you first addressed me. I understand your point now, and I think I agree with you.
Counter to your point about asking an Orthodox Jew, I've known several Christians who've agreed that they're worshipping the same god as the Jews, with the rider that Christians are doing it better. Mind you, I've also met at least two Christians who didn't even believe me that three religions were historically related, so I'm not going to claim that as strong evidence.
f me, i guess it is intents and purposes.
that bottles my mind.
anyway, the "triune" is not a universally lauded christian belif.
and as much as i understand that jesus preached a more forgiving god as opposed to the old testament's jealous god, a change in attitude does not constitute a change in deity.
#57
Religion has respect for it's "own" tradition. Ask the native americans how much the missionaries loved their ethinc traditions.
And aren't gut instincts and faith mutually exclusive? Shouldn't your gut instinct tell you that talking snakes, zombies, and 900 year old men aren't real, but you need faith to belive it?
Religion is about power and money. If you don't believe me, I have a sale on indulgences this week. Buy one, get one into heaven.
And if it was soo much about tradition, they wouldnt be jumping through hoops to accept as doctrine what science can prove, making the bible's stories fables not to be taken literally. The church seems content for now existing on the outskirts of what science can prove, and calling the ever more difficult to belive, a test of faith.
I, for one, can't wait until there's fool prove evidence that there is no god. The church would be relegated to a means of cultural identity, like the english monarchy. Still a burden on society yes, but not as capapble of ruining the world any longer.
Bugs, that's awesome.
I prefer the new formulation, so I shout "FML!!!!".
I think we're in agreement, Bugs: as a Christian, I'd say roughly the same thing as what you report. But that's just everyday Tdawwg the man: speaking more as a thinker, I'd have to insist on the differences.
Cog diss, they're simply three different deities that share the same root. I think we're sort of "six-of-one, half-a-dozen-of-the-other"ing it, with you focusing more on the historical continuities, me more on the doctrinal breaks. I do like the idea, though, of "bottl[ing] the mind": a lovely malapropism! :D
Clearly God is great. He is all around us and that is all the proof I need.
Look around you, for you are living in his intelligent design. Hallelujah!
Why just yesterday I had a prostitute massage my prostate in honour of his perfect design.
Tom Hale 40: Glad to see you a little calmer here, because your earlier comment kinda shocked me. We do diss some Moslems around here: sentiments I'd express as "marg bar Khameini," for example. The difference is that few of the craziest Moslem clerics are harmless enough to be funny. We don't make fun of Scott Roeder, because he's too frackin' scary.
Crazy Moslems are no more typical of the run-of-the-mill Moslem than this guy is of the ROTM Christian. Find me a Moslem cleric who is as hilariously crazed as this guy, and I'll happily make fun of him.
Cognitive Dissonance 41: human parthenogenesis
No, that would result in a female Jesus. They DON'T believe in THAT, trust me!
Ibid 49: You mean JOSEPH Smith. JOHN Smith is on the terrorist watch list, of course.
TDawwg 52: I know you're probably just trying to get people's backs up here, but in the church I go to they talk about "Yahweh God" a fair amount, like whenever they're talking about the OT (except the very early bits, which are about El, not Yah). Enlightened Christians (say that over and over until it doesn't sound like an oxymoron any more) acknowledge their debt to Judaism.
Tom Hale 53: When a friend of mine expressed similar sentiments, I told him that while I'm not a Christian, ISTM that "act as if you had faith" isn't a bad axiom. Faith isn't given to everyone; this is no hardship in my religion, thank $DIETY, because I haven't got it. But "Turn from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it" is a pretty good way to live your life, even if you can't quite clear your mind of the doubt that it's divinely inspired scripture. I think the pastor of our church would say that faith is a gift, not a requirement, and that if you act rightly you're being righteous, in a fashion akin to "blessed are they who have not seen, and yet believe."
You may not want to take that from a Wiccan, albeit one who's been listening in church! But it's offered with all respect.
And did I know you were a firefighter? No wonder I like you.
TDawwg 56: It's Islam's way of being ecumenical: "we all sort of kinda agree, and while the rest of y'all aren't Muslims, and therefore inferior, at least you aren't pagan apostate heathens, fellow book-people!" Nice of them!
Yeah, I just want to go home and say a puja of thanks when I hear that!
Tom Hale 85: Don't take it personally. Takuan will go after anyone he thinks he can get a rise out of.
Cog diss, they're simply three different deities that share the same root.
the irony there is that I see the common root as... cognitive dissonance.
@Bugs
Love the Diskworld Reference. "No Smiting!" as a directive from Brutha to The Great God Om. is another memorable one.
Basically, Jesus was about dispensing with rules. Between the Talmud, Mishna and Pentateuch, you have a massive accumulation of twiddle-fidget about every basic function a human being can encounter in life.
Instead, you have basic principles. Respect God, respect your fellow human being and his wife. Think about your actions, don't do only things for other people that you would want done to you. Your worship of God along with your fellow believers is not a moneymaking proposition. (Tie that one on, televangelists and megachurchists.)
Of course there is Jesus basic philosophies which sometimes seem to be part and parcel, apart from Christianity which came later.
Is that the best he can do?
Prophetic!
@bugs wrote: Mohammed was raised as a Christian (well, the local equivalent at the time)
The idea that Mohammed was actually a heretical Christian is a long-standing misconception, or perhaps a deliberate misrepresentation. Oddly, I haven't heard this claim made by present-day Christians, but it was widely believed in the past.
Muslim tradition says that while pre-Islamic Arab culture was largely pagan (polytheistic), Mohammed himself was a hanif, a follower of a monotheistic religion that shared its roots with Judaism.
You could argue that as a monotheist, Mohammed was very loosely the 'local equivalent' of a Christian (although it might be more accurate to describe him as the 'local equivalent' of a Jew). However, I've not seen it suggested by any credible source that Mohammed was "raised as a Christian", or that the hunafa were a Christian sect.
I'm not sure which post of mine you're referring to, Xopher, but I was writing truthfully, without trying to anger or irritate. (Yes, this is indeed Tdawwg writing.) As I've said repeatedly, the fact of Christianity's descent from Judaism is neither in dispute nor at issue.
Are you kidding or being sarcastic in your second comment? I can't tell! Damned Internet of the Ambiguous Affect! Really, Islam can be ecumenical in its outlook, the Taliban and Western media notwithstanding.
Gollux, I think "...respect your fellow human being and his wife." may get a few people's attention. This will be fun.
@Tom Hale
Well given the historical time being discussed it's relevant. But I guess if anyone wants to touch a match to it... currently his wife could be translated domestic partner. ;^)
Tdawwg,
You produce such vast quantities of uninformed static, I'm beginning to wonder if you're not just a garden variety troll.
if you evoke my name xopher, see to it there is no libel attached.
Tom: what do you think? That I have you specifically in mind when I unbolt some of the sillier parts of christianity? Trust me, if I mean to offend you, you will know it. I respect your right to have your beliefs, I am under no obligation to respect those beliefs themselves. Think it through. In fundamentalist islamic countries they kill you for denying islam. christianity outgrew that (somewhat) but could easily backslide if permitted. How do you want to live?
@99 et al: re the Golden Rule:
the only correct version is: "don't do to others what they don't want you to do to them"
Tom, I do believe you're not giving many of us here enough credit; those of us who believe belief in imaginary dictators for eternity is the height of foolishness, have never failed to include all followers of the desert cults as loony.
Planet earth is one big Plato's Cave.
The Grand Delusion is the single most destructive creation of man, which is responsible for robbing humankind of his and her faith, their confidence, in their own goodness and ability to endure life's trials and enjoy the miracle that is every living creature and every quantum particle.
If I could live forever it would be to see the day when humanity finally shakes free of the ignorance and superstition of the last hundred thousand years.
There is little or no practical difference, except in name, of the three bastard religions of the desert.
It started with the Jewish 13 Principles of Faith:
1. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is One, and that there is no unity in any manner like His, and that He alone is our God, who was, and is, and will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, has no body, and that He is free from all the properties of matter, and that there can be no (physical) comparison to Him whatsoever.
4. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the first and the last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that to the Creator, Blessed be His Name, and to Him alone, it is right to pray, and that it is not right to pray to any being besides Him.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, was true, and that he was the chief of the prophets, both those who preceded him and those who followed him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that is now in our possession is the same that was given to Moses our teacher, peace be upon him.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be exchanged, and that there will never be any other Torah from the Creator, Blessed be His Name.
10. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, knows all the deeds of human beings and all their thoughts, as it is written, "Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions" (Psalms 33:15).
11. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, rewards those who keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them.
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and even though he may tarry, nonetheless, I wait every day for his coming.
13. I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, Blessed be His name, and His mention shall be exalted forever and ever.
Moves on to the Apostles' Creed of Christianity:
1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.
Amen.
And continues here with the Islamic five articles of faith.
Prophet Muhammad (blessings of Allah and peace be upon him) has enjoined us to believe in five articles of faith:
1) Belief in one God Who has absolutely no associate with Him in His divinity;
2) Belief in God's Angels;
3) Belief in God's Books, and in the Holy Qur'an as His Last Book;
4) Belief in God's Prophets, and in Muhammad (blessings of Allah and peace be upon him) as His Last and Final Messenger; and
5) Belief in life after death.
I see no difference whatsoever, other than the obvious Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus christ the purported son of god. We all know what the other two groups think of that bit of hocus-pocus.
As I have said many times, in my imaginary evangelical preacher’s voice:
These people been thrown the bone for so long, they don't know a roast has meat!
The scary thing isn't that this type of evangelist is dementedly illogical... it's that nobody in the audience ever calls them on it.
You never see anyone stand up and say "If 2 million kids have been abducted and killed by satanists, don't you think people would have noticed?"
TDawwg 97: I was expressing the sentiment that Islamic tolerance of People of the Book is cold comfort to those of us who are not, especially those of us who are Pagan idolaters. I do puja every morning, chanting and burning incense to an image of Ganesh-ji.
In other words, I was agreeing with you, or thought I was.
Gollux 100: The point, I think, was that the formulation "your fellow human being and his wife" implies that women are not human beings. Or maybe you meant all human beings, and female non-humans who are married to human men?
http://www.irreligion.org/2007/10/20/norway-theyre-all-going-to-hell/
Takuan, you're changing the point - earlier I said sometimes you say things specifically to tick me off regarding to religion. You said give me one example. I think I did in my link. But, whatever - really I couldn't care less. It's a trifling point.
Takuan 104: What, do you deny it? I am astonished. If goading people isn't your deliberate policy, but simply the unintended net effect of your behavior, I apologize.
When my brother spills hot coffee on himself, he shouts "Almighty Lord Satan!"... or, occasionally: "Thus do I refute Berkeley!". Logic is not the friend of the evangelical, they have only a nodding acquaintance.
Takuan 105: I've heard THAT called the "Platinum Rule"—the difference being that it requires considering the other person as an individual with different thoughts, needs, and desires; whereas the Golden Rule considers others only as mirrors of oneself.
A much better rule, whatever you call it.
I'm not looking for a fight, Antinous, so kindly Moderate what of mine you object to (preferably explaining how it offends), or kindly deal. As it is, your personal attack is more of the "uninformed static" to which you profess to object.
Tom: allow me to make clear: you CHOOSE. It is your choice to make belief. It is your choice to be offended by my criticism of said belief. As dear old Eleanor once said; "only you can make yourself feel inferior". True faith is unassailable. True knowledge even more so. Who ever heard of a pissed-off buddha? If I really wanted to hurt your feelings I might mention those extra pounds you've packed on lately.
@daemon
The best quote I ever heard was, "More people have been killed in the name of God and Allah than have ever been killed in the name of Satan." Another was, "All the world's major religions prohibit murder, they will however, kill you to prove their point."
Tdawwg,
I'm merely pointing out that you habitually attach yourself like a gila monster to an argument, yet rarely give the slightest bit of evidence to prove your point. It makes it look like you're just stirring up trouble.
Cool, Xopher, I really couldn't tell if you were being sincere or no, and since we've crossed keyboards in the past, I thought it best to ask. Partly due to my past behavior, partly due to the behavior of others here, I feel the need to reassure y'all of my good faith: hence my explicit question. :D
Historically, have Muslims been especially intolerant of non-Book peoples? I know nothing of this.
TDawwg, one example: Hindus. 'Nuff said? That conflict has been mutual, but extremely bloody. And in Saudi Arabia "possession of polytheistic texts" (like, say, the Bhagavad Gita or even The Spiral Dance) is a capital crime.
I can prove how God feels about disabled people:
18For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
19Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
20Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
22He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
23Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them.
Leviticus 21:18-23
if I drag anyone's flensed flesh over red hot coals and force acid venom into every exposed nerve with a razor wire cat-o-nine tails while all the while playing Brittany Spears greatest hits - it's for their own good! Their truths have every opportunity to overcome me. If they can.
In some debate the ad hominem is integral to the debate itself.
Who are you!?
What do you believe?!
Why?!!
Who are you??
have to go kill something now, see you later
But Cpt. Tim, these days NO ONE gets to go into the vail, or come nigh to the altar, because the Temple has been destroyed and is not going to be rebuilt (unless every Moslem in the world is killed or subjugated first, because the Dome of the Rock is on the former site).
So that's all kind of moot.
I disagree, Antinous: let my evidence be the actual text of my posts, which don't conform to your interpretation. Lacking proof of bad intentions on my part, it's maybe better to assume, following the standard of the 'Nets, that I'm posting in good faith, and your reasons for disagreeing with what I do are perhaps of greatest interest to you. I say this without any desire to provoke you, but we've disagreed enough in the past about substantive issues that I'm going to trust Tdawwg reading Tdawwg as perhaps more accurate than Antinous reading Tdawwg: we have fundamentally different ways of approaching basic issues. Is that OK with you?
As for your broader claim, I'll invoke the "Google is your friend" meme: the posters here are quite capable of reading the different scriptures I'm referring to, and deciding for themselves whether the proposition "YHWH=Xtian God=Allah" is true. (It isn't, BTW.) For me to walk them through this, chapter and verse, would be, for me, an exercise in the rankest pedantry. Read the stuff for yourselves!
Of course, Xopher, I was totally forgetting the centuries of conflict between Hindus and Muslims. (Slaps forehead.) Thanks!
I'm adopting this
as my motto (epitaph?), Takuan. Euge, euge!TDawwg, now it's my turn to not be able to tell if you're being sarcastic. A lot of people miss that one because they don't think of Hindus as Pagan, partly because they think of Pagan as something ancient and dead,* like the Ancient Greeks and Romans. The truth is, even if you don't count Hindus, between the EoPagans and NeoPagans there are still plenty of Pagans around.
___
*I'm not dead.
No, I'm totally serious, Xopher. I'd forgotten the Hindu-Muslim conflict.... it totally slipped my mind. And I hadn't really ever thought of pagan as being operative in the current day: like your "lot of people" example, I tend to think of pagans as Zeus-loving Greeks. Thanks!
When I read "pagan" I always think of the Celts. It hadn't occurred to me to apply the term to Hindus. (Is that the correct plural for Hindu people?)
@Antinous:
Tdawwg's comments in this thread have been uniformly well-expressed, interesting (to me, YMMV) and seem well thought out. Unless you've deleted some that I haven't seen.
@Cognitive dissonance (91)
I phrased my post badly. My key point is that religion says "believe this..." where science says "let's test this...". I don't find it surprising that people who adhere strongly to one mindset have a hard time with the other.
Where I said "gut instinct" I was thinking back to a couple of conversations I've had with religious people that ended up with them saying something like "Well, I just know deep down that $RELIGION_NAME is right."
"Religion is about power and money. If you don't believe me, I have a sale on indulgences this week. Buy one, get one into heaven."
I really dislike this argument. The big religious institutions (e.g. the Catholic Church and its equivalents in other religions) become rich and powerful by gobbling up the more pious-minded. So yes, the huge institutions can become about that; it's survival of the fittest after all.
However, I know several priests very well (family members and lifelong friends) and none of them are anything close to rich, or wield any power beyond the goodwill they've earned among their parishes. I know a great many religious people, and never got the impression that they're secret-handshaking their way to the top.
They go to church because they feel they need to worship, and they volunteer their time or raise money for charities because it's what they think god wants them to do. I don't know why these people are religious, but it certainly isn't about power or money and I think it's both irrational and insulting to imply that it is.
@Angusm: Fascinating, thanks! I have no idea where I picked up the idea that Muhammed was a Christian, but I'll use your post to start a bit of background reading. In theory I learned his biography in school, but it was many years ago and I wasn't particularly interested at the time... oh well.
Unfortunately xopher, tdawwg hasn't yet figured out that there is often a gulf between what he says and what he means, and rather than blame his own mortal fingers for the difference, he blames whomever calls him on it (pleasantly or not) for reading his words and not reading his mind.
Not that that's uncommon, rare, or bad, it's just.... c'est la vie, we all grow together.
All this argument over whether or not Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same god is missing the point, I think. It's just a matter of definition. By extending the logic used to claim they're not the same, you could say that different Christian denominations are worshipping different gods (a statement that some of those denominations would agree with).
Or you could say that no two people believe in the same god, because no two people have exactly the same thing in mind. This last interpretation wouldn't be popular with believers, because it would imply that the REAL god only revealed himself to one person, a notion that doesn't make sense to anyone without a messiah complex at the very least. However, it makes perfect sense to those who don't particularly subscribe to religion, and is indeed how I see it. Anyone can create their own god, but no one can fully share. The word "god" is probably the most ambiguous in the English language. For example, there's nothing I believe in that *I* call "God," but there are things I "believe" (though with less certainty than what is normally meant by "faith") that some *other* people call God, like an overall consistency to the universe, etc.
#124 while it may be applaudable for a man who used to hold incorrect views to reconsider them, YHWH it seems, should be held to higher standards. If he is unchanging then he is bipolar.
Awhile back, I found the video of this guy at a thrift store. I took it home and burned it to DVD. The video that this YouTube short comes from is
"Occultic Tendences In Rock Music." It's hilarious!
thanks! randymoonbeam at g mail dot com
No, I'm well aware of that (rather banal) fact, MDH. Certainly you too are aware of the gap between a statement and the multiple interpretations of the same? It takes two to interpret; likewise, both partners in a conversation bear the burden of possible miscommunication. Sure, I mistype, misstate, mis-think what I communicate; similarly, you're no doubt imperfect as an interpreter of those words as well.
Let's all speak more clearly, more directly, together!
I am highly offended by this man. He says that my Kenny Loggins album "Keep The Fire" is satanic! Oh the humanity!
When we stub a toe or mash a finger at our house we say: "ELVIS H. PRESLEY!"
1. Jesus
2. Jesus
3. Jesus
4. Jesus
5. Jesus
6. Jesus
let my evidence be the actual text of my posts
Hot air =/= citations.
"Allah is the standard Arabic word for God."
"They do not regard Muhammad as the founder of a new religion, but as the restorer of the original monotheistic faith of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets."
"Adherents of Christianity, known as Christians, believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Bible (the part of scripture common to Christianity and Judaism)...Christianity began as a Jewish sect and thus, like Judaism and Islam, is classified as an Abrahamic religion..."
"In theology, monotheism...is the belief that only one god exists. The concept of "monotheism" tends to be dominated by the concept of God in the Abrahamic religions, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam..."
"Monotheists hold that there is only one god, and may claim that the one true god is worshiped in different religions under different names."
i think tdawwg just hit his thumb with his own hammer. How banal.
Tim 137:
1. The Christians have really great music. Also some crap, but some of the greatest music in history was written for church services.
2. They feed you. Mostly just a bite of bread and a swallow of wine, but sometimes/places they really frackin' FEED you.
3. They have cool buildings (often built by impoverishing and in some cases enslaving the local population for decades/centuries, but the buildings are cool).
4. Some bits of their scripture sound really cool in Latin or Old Church Slavic.
5. Desmond Tutu.
6. Getting your doopa out of bed on Sunday morning is good for your health.
Why not just put up a blank post titled "Religion" and see if this same comment thread gets created?
I'm a bit late on commenting on the YHWH=Jesus's Dad=Allah discussion, but I've always been of the opinion that they are the SAME God, just the interpretation of their intentions is different.
Which of course, assumes that they exist, and are not simply the creations of these same "interpretations".
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that there is a single, omnipotent being who has actively taken a roll in human development, via avatars, prophets, booming voices, and the odd burning bush or two, then by definition, there cannot be other options. There can only be differences in what one believes of that being.
Think of parents who have had 3 children, with significant gaps in their births. Find a family of 3 boys and you'll find 3 brothers who fall into "oldest, middle, and youngest" stereotypes. If they're each, say, 10 years apart in age, then they will each have very different experiences growing up. If they were each born or raised in different parts of the world, this would add to the differences in their upbringing.
Mom and Dad might have been strict with the eldest, ignored and been more lenient with the middle (since the eldest turned out okay), and absolutely spoil the youngest. Each one of this children will have different views on their parents. In a sense, while their parents are physically the same people, the stories of upbringing would be vastly different between the kids.
Similarly, you can often find siblings where one has been a momma's boy and the other is dad's son. Or where there is seething hatred and resentment towards parents by one child, and nothing but love and respect from another. All because of their beliefs and experiences.
I would say it's a similar case with monotheistic religions. Same God, different viewpoints. And since scripture and interpretation are the work of humans, these are obviously influenced by the era, location, and honesty of their times. I imagine going back 500 years, that if we showed modern-day evangelism as Christianity, the Christians of the time would be aghast.
Frigga lives!
Antinous, Christianity is not actually monotheistic, not if you consider the Psalms as defining scripture (and literal). Too much "great among the gods" stuff.
The belief that there may be more than one god, but only one is worthy of worship is called henotheism. The reason most people don't make this distinction is that they don't understand that there's a difference between believing a god exists and choosing to worship that god.
@Antinous (140)
Insofar as I understand Tdawwg's point, it's that if you take a bunch of scolars of each religion to sit down and write a description of their version of God, you'd end up with three irreconcilably different descriptions.
His example of the Christian Trinity (and Jesus being an aspect of God) as opposed to the others' more literal/strict monotheism is a good one. God either does have three aspects, on of which was made incarnate, or he doesn't; they can't be describing the same entity. The legends started off in the same place, but the beliefs as they exist today are describing very different beings.
Think of it like speciation of an idea: god has evolved in three different directions until they're no longer compatible. Or has been intelligently designed, your pick!
Ah, Wikipedia!
So Allah isn't YHWH, then, at least not according to Peters: I read this as stating that, from a Muslim point of view, Abraham covenanted with Allah, not YHWH. The Koranic verse he cites is interesting, here's one translation:
Not an Arabist, but I read that not as "Allah and Jesus and YHWH are same" but as "Allah is Allah and Jesus is Allah and YHWH is Allah and Allah is Allah." I.e., that all monotheistic gods, from the point of view of Islam, are Allah.
A fun discussion!
Here are other translations of the Koranic text:
Granted, Antinous, Allah is the Arabic word for "God," but I still see a difference there. They're the same god, i.e., the Muslim God. Anyway, that's my take: not hot air, just disagreement....
Hate to spam, but it's such a fascinating, intractable discussion. Here's another snippet from the "Allah" page you cited on Wikipedia, Antinous:
Hope that's evidence enough for you! Seriously, let's be, if not friends, then noncombatants, at least? :D
So do Catholics and Protestants worship different gods? As far as I can tell, Catholics worship a closety version of Jupiter Optimus Maximus.
Tdawwg:
The quotes you quote argue directly against your point. It baffles me to see how you could see it differently.
Here's the same text from the Wikipedia article Christianity and Islam:
To say that because some translators leave in the Arabic word "Allah," that that proves that their God is different (despite what the text is clearly saying) is absurd. What word should they have used? In Arabic there is no other word for God but "Allah" -- it's the Arabic word. It would be akin to translating text from Italian but leaving the word "Dio" untranslated, and then suggesting this implies Italians admit to worshiping a different God.
The text clearly states that "the people of the book" have the same God as them.
Your first quote is even worse. How can you take the statement "The Qur'an insists ... that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews (29:46)" and use it as evidence that it insists they worship a different God?
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Tdawwg: In the Christian bible, do you believe (or do you believe that Christians believe) the entity referred to as "God" or "The Lord" in the Old Testament is different from the entity referred to as "God" or "The Lord" in the New Testament?
Do you believe that the characters such as David referred to in the Old Testament are Jewish?
Do the Jews portrayed in the Bible worship the entity referred to as "God" in the Old Testament?
From your answers, what God do Christians believe that Jews worship?
Different gods - I don't think that when an Islamic person, a Christian, or a Hindu prays, they think they're praying to the same god. I know good and well I've never prayed to Allah.
Doityourself icon kits. Hope they do the VM next.
http://plebiandesign.com/store.html
re: an above post, I have read several times in the Christian bible where it says like - put no other Gods before me, and stuff like that. It seems that whoever wrote the bible suggests that there are several Gods other than my god.
"I like your Christ,
I do not like your Christians,
Your Christians act nothing like your Christ."
M. Gandhi
Tom,
Allah is just the Arabic word meaning God. Do you think that people in Spain praying to Dios are worshiping a different deity?
Indeed, SamSam, but read the scholar's note to that quotation from the Koran
Thus Peters. The quotation clearly states that YHWH and Allah are different deities. I take this as a scholar's interpretation of the Koran, and a valid statement of what the Koranic sura states.
I think the Koranic sura can be reasonably interpreted as stating that the monotheistic God, Allah, was that worshiped by Jews and Xtians before Mohammed's advent: I interpret this as saying, not that YHWH and the Xtian God and Allah are one, but that the Jews and Xtians were worshiping Allah. I see a critical difference here: not that they're all the same, but that all People of the Book worship, or mean to worship, Muslim Allah.
According to the Wikipedia article, "Allah is the proper name of God." So, not just Allah as the Arabic word for "God," but Allah as the proper name of a deity. I see a difference here, and I don't think it's merely my ingeniousness, or my not wanting to lose an argument....
We're also arguing for a statist Koran, one that never contradicts itself or is ambiguous. Without being blasphemous, I can easily state that the Hebrew OT and Christian NT are internally contradictory: thus, there may be, if no "smoking gun" verse that would contradict the sura we're arguing over, other depictions of Allah that depict Him as different than the Hebrew or Xtain God. See again the Peters quotation above.
And that's for Islam alone, anyway, the latest of the great three monotheisms. There's nothing I know of in Christian doctrine or in Jewish scriptural exegesis that states that the three religions worship the same God.
As for the other stuff: dunno, God the Father (the monotheistic God) is conspicuously absent from the Greek NT. It's all Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, who is not in the Hebrew OT. So the NT God, the triune God, in my interpretation is different then the Jewish YHWH of the OT, considered singly. Yes, I "believe" that David was Jewish: all authorities, historical and scriptural, attest to this. My general take on Christian views of God vs Jewish ones is that Christianity is Judaism plus Christ: a different dispensation, as Christ attests in the NT. So, yeah, a different God.
Finally, I can eat bacon, my Muslim and Jewish observant friends, not. QE frikkin' D.
Antinous, James Joyce stated that Catholics worship the "Dio boia," or "hangman God," and that's what I'm sticking to. I don't know what the Protestant heathen dogs worship: Luther? Satan? Commerce? :P
And maybe a quiet plea for a little less heat in these posts?
I'd like to point out that we're arguing over Wikipedia articles, here, not even full English translations of texts written some millennia ago: texts I'm going to go out on a limb and say that few, if any, of us have read in full. Of the three languages in which they were written, I could maybe stumble through Koine Greek, the language of the NT: not so for Hebrew or Arabic. And even then I'd be lifetimes away from even a shallow understanding of the scriptures, and more lifetimes still from the centuries of exegesis. We're looking at these texts "through a glass, darkly," as it were: we can cite and counter-cite Wikipedia till Doomsday, but we're far from being experts on this fascinating question.
Antinous - Oh, OK - well I don't know much about their religion. Seems I recall that one of Abraham's sons formed my religion and another formed the Muslim religion. I guess it would make sense that they worship the same God. I asked my wife (my live in Bible expert) if we worship the same God as Muslims and at first she said no, then she said - unintelligible - then she went back to what she was doing.
Tom Hale 161: So she quoted scripture, did she? :-) "Unintelligible" is a pretty good description of most of it!
See, from my perspective the Abrahamic tradition is all one. It's all descended from this bozo with so little sense of self that he almost killed his own son just because God told him to—in fact, only stopped when God stopped him!
Btw, the Moslems say it was Ishmael who was nearly sacrificed, that is, Abe's older son.
You get a different set of religions if your founding hero says "Fuck you! Kill me if you have to, but I'm not killing my own son even for God." Because, see, in those traditions God then says "Good. I was testing to see if you had any love for your fellow humans at all. You pass the test." I think Abraham FAILED.
So while the spiritual descendants of Abraham have been fighting among themselves for centuries, they have these two things in common: monotheism (though the Jews are henotheistic at least in poetry, and the Christians are positively two-faced (or—heh—three-faced!) about it), and they treat absolute obedience to God as a virtue.
Viewed through the eyes of someone who shares neither of these things, they all look pretty similar.
What you're seeing here is the oldest monotheist smear on the books. The fundamentalist theme goes something like this, "Adam and Eve talked to God, Abraham talked to God, somewhere along the line everyone else deviated, and we're reverting to talking the original 'One and True God'".
So, basically the cant is that Abraham worshiped Allah and somewhere along the line the Jewish people deviated to worshiping YHWH, and Allah's Prophet Mohammed completed what Allah's Prophet Jesus attempted to do, return the believers to worshiping Allah. Therefore, if the Jews and Christians had properly followed the Prophet Jesus, they would be worshiping Allah instead of the Jews continuing to worship YHWH and the Christians deviating even worse to worship the Prophet Jesus as a horrific triune GodMan.
I've even seen this theme in current Christianity where some Jackass Preacher up on stage was trying to say that all Mormons will burn in hell because they don't worship the same Authentic Original God we do. Fundamentalists are a horror, no matter what religion they profess.
A priest, a rabbi and an atheist walk into a bar. How do you tell the priest and rabbi from the atheist?
They can't quote Bible + commentary + Apocrypha from memory.
--
I amazes me how dedicated atheists are to religion. these endless arguments are a lot like a fight between siblings. They still belong in the family but they're just pissed off at Dad.
Some dude developed a theory about that. Oedipus, is that you? Your Mother wants you. Don't treat her like a neighbor.
(In dreams I talk with you,
In dreams I walk with you.)
This thread reminds me of why I can't stand religion.
Noen - cool - something we can agree on.
This is without doubt the silliest thread evar.
There is but one god!
All three religions state this unequivocally. That they also state put no other gods before me, means don't waste your time believing in all those other imaginary gods, because I am the one true god, the only god that actually exists, all other gods are false beliefs.
All these religions are arguing over is their interpretation of god's will and who god likes the most. God likes us better, loser.
The christian death cult, eating the flesh and drinking the blood of their savior and collecting various body parts of saints, adds another whole dimension of silliness.
As most of us have said many times, no one cares what you believe, except other believers. Those of us that think this is all just a bunch of out dated superstitious bunk don't just want to be left alone. We just want the holier than thou religions to mind their own business. In other words, have faith in your faith, let go let god, and recognize the rights of others to live their lives as they wish.
Your beliefs stop at my nose. You have no more right to tell me when I can buy a beer or who can get married than the Man On The Moon.
@Noen
Exactly, it is amazing how truly religious some atheists can be. Never tell them that to their face, the explosion can be quite intense. I've come to believe that religious intolerance is a core human trait. Belief free from religion; whether you believe there is a God, or believe there is no god is not the issue.
In our current century, some of the most deadly religions were atheist at their core. For want of a better description, I would call them atheist leadership cults. Stalin, Mao ZeDong, Pol Pot all are fine examples of that ilk.
Have we met the requirements for invoking Godwin's law yet?
It amazes me how dedicated atheists are to religion
They just have a wide stance.
I used to work for a great metropolitan newspaper, and our city room editor habitually swore by yelling "Great Caesar's Ghost!" The first time I heard it in a staff meeting, I thought he was kidding -- it was so weird. I started to snicker and one of the other reporters shot me a look of "don't even go there!" so I stifled it.
Afterwards she explained that he had been raised in a very religious strict Christian household, so he never said, "God!" or "Goddammit!" or not even "Jeeezuss Haploid Christ on a Fucking Crutch!!" Just "Great Caesar's Ghost!" and maybe once in a while, "By Jove!"
I don't think that proves that he worships the ancient Roman pantheon. Actually, he was pretty much a relaxed Deist, but his early upbringing had left its mark.
Or, he watched Superman, where the editor of a great metropolitan newspaper used to say "Great Caesar's ghost" all the time.
Hell, I don't say cuss words invoking a deity and I know it isn't a sin. These days I save cuss words for when I want to strongly emphasize a point or when I'm very angry. People that take the lord's name in vain usually aren't committing a sin. They don't really want God to damn someone that's pissed them off or an inanimate object that isn't cooperating. I forced myself to stop cussing years ago when I realized I was teaching my kids every cussword known while playing Contra on my super nintendo.
a kind of mindfulness
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/Perry_white_jo22.jpg
Isn't asking whether Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same god exactly the same as asking whether Kirk from the original Star Trek is the same as Kirk from the latest movie?
heh!
http://www.salon.com/env/atoms_eden/2009/06/24/evolution_of_god/
Vulgarity is simply the absence of something intelligent to say. Also, one way a weak mind attempts to expresses itself in a strong manner.
Another bit: god or GOD in language is abstract, being more specific with Jehovah, or Yahweh are linguistically specific. No man can dicearn another mans heart. Depending on the magnitude of co-dependency, one might have a false Idol(god or GOD)pertaining to any spiritual battle with an external potential sin. So they cling to a vise they perceive to be a god, that is not Yahweh.
To avoid hitting your thumb with a hammer, hold the hammer with both hands. [Dumbass.] Then, when the unsteadied nail flies out and hits you in the eye, you can scream aloud to everyone that you worship having sexual relations with your mother.
This preacher seems to have never been more than twenty miles from the farm where he was born, just like most people in Biblical times. And just like them, he seems to think that the whole world is exactly like the twenty mile radius circle that he he has seen.
I have to admire his dedication to ignorance, though, it certainly must have taken a great deal of careful effort to remove so much mind without having his head collapse in on itself like a falling souffle.
Religion isn't really about belief. Or... not until recently it hasn't been. It was through most of human history about right behavior not about "IF P THEN Q."
To be fair I think atheists have it mostly right. It's just that there are these nagging details like what is the "stuff" of the universe. Oh? It's made out of math? One dimensional mathematical strings? Okaaaaayy.
And yeah, fundamentalists of all strips are bugfuck insane. I'm just disappointed no one got the Blue Velvet reference.. I has a sad.
"Oh? It's made out of math? One dimensional mathematical strings? Okaaaaayy"
At least they keep trying, religion stoped trying after the council of trent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent
what is religion good for?:
http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2009/06/24/iran_photos/
Noen wrote:
Here's something else Noen may find amazing: I am not a meth addict. Yet I'm concerned enough about the effects of the production and use of this dangerous drug by members of my community that the issue does attract my attention from time to time.
Who is that guy? Anybody got his name?
I'd like to be able to avoid him if at all possible.
Ed Darrell
Millard Fillmore's Bathtub
I live in Thailand and people here actually say things like "oh my Buddha". This is to be expected since he majority of people here are Buddhist. In the USA, where the majority of people are Christian, you would expect hear more people use Jesus' name in vein. Logic is wonderful.
Hmm, the Captcha required me to put in the words "atheist pending" into it before I can post this message. That must mean God is trying to tell me something through my computer. Ya, that's it. I'll say what I say to everyone else, "I am fine with your religion if the sacrificed goat is ok with it too, but don't try to sell me that goat after you are done with it".
I think you can be a Buddhist (i.e. "take refuge in the thing and the thing and the other thing," wish they translated them into something easier to remember) without being Enlightened first. Hardly anybody is Enlightened. It's like something to aspire to for several lifetimes down the road.
I guess this page is dead, but I'm surprised nobody noted that tdawwg's quote "proved" not that Jews and Muslims believe they worship different deities, but that Some Guy Named Peters said blah blah blah.
It's now a "private video"