Plastics industry releases anti-cloth-bag FUD study
The Canadian Plastic Industry Association commissioned a study concluding that using cloth bags is bad for your health because they're full of bacteria (and certainly not because using cloth bags is bad for the profitablity of Canadian Plastic Industry Association members!). They hired an ex-health regulator (Dr. Richard Summerbell, Director of Research at Toronto-based Sporometrics and former Chief of Medical Mycology for the Ontario Ministry of Health) to say that cloth bags put you at risk of "skin infections such as bacterial boils, allergic reactions, triggering of asthma attacks, and ear infections". Of course, it's bullshit, and the regulator who traded his credibility for a consulting fee should be ashamed of himself.
Um, yeah except that coliform isn't an indicator of really anything in a shopping bag. It's a great indicator of water quality, but not great for food (coliforms are all over the place, including on produce). And mean relatively nothing.Are reusable bags really a food safety concern? (via Consumerist)The lack of real data is probably why it was reported in CFU/ml (a water measurement -- pretty hard to tell what a ml of a shopping bag represents). The most telling data was that no generic E. coli or Salmonella was found.
the latest
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Damn,
Looks like I will have to throw out all of my clothes then and dress in bin-liners ala punk style.
Um, so what would this so-called study imply about clothing? I bet there's more bacteria in our bed sheets and couch cushions than on these shopping bags. Lets not even get started on Cash.
#1 - that's not such a bad idea, if you think about disposable clothing. This is ignoring the landfill cost, unless there are compostable clothes.
I've been wishing there were disposable white dress-shirts for a while. I'd like them to be made from this thicker paper-towel material I've seen used as tarps and napkins (and my current projection-screen material, a former tarp). As often as I wear a white dress shirt, it would be nice to unwrap a clean and perfect white shirt everytime.
I could expect it to be composted. I'm not sure what chemicals go into paper to make it white. They might even be fashionable.
Otherwise, aren't most of our clothes made from some kind of plastic? My shorts and socks (and cheap shoes) are all plastic. What are you wearing? *wink* *wink*
hmm, wash those reusable bags perhaps. Non-existant problem solved.
This is why its a bad idea to sign your name to bullshit.
Dr. Richard Summerbell : Biostitute
#3
White dress shirts are the epitome of unsustainable clothing. They require toxic chemicals to keep clean and they age quickly. Why do you think business and elites have standardized on white dress shirts? Not because they look good but because they need frequent replacing. White dress shirts are planned and perceived obsolescence in action.
@5,
Nicely stated.
Drew From Zhrodague,
Have you read Bruce Sterling's, Heavy Weather? Some of the characters dress in hitech/lowcost paper refugee suits.
Dear Canadian Plastics Industry,
Why don't you quit yer whining and BS'ing and develop an extrudable plastic from materials that do good things as they degrade? Not all fertilizer is made from poop. I'm no horticulturist, but I think that plants need calcium, carbon, potassium and other stuff, so make a bag that dissolves (slowly) into beneficial elements. Or absorbs methane or other toxins that might otherwise leech out of a landfill.
Quit whining, put on your labcoats, and fight for your market share, or get in your Studebakers and go where Studebaker went.
hee!, lessee now: semi-sterile (maybe) product is put in non-sterile box at factory or farm, on non-sterile pallet, into non-sterile trucks, handled by non-sterile people, put on non-sterile store shelves, mauled by non-sterile public, put into non-sterile shopping basket, handled by non-sterile cashier, bagged by non-sterile hands, PUT INTO STERILE BAG, stored on non-sterile home shelves and then prepared in non-sterile kitchen.
Double hah!
OMG TEH BACTERIAS R EVRYWERE
obligatory Invader Zim insert.
This is why I prefer cloth bags to those plasticky reusables ones. I use them a couple of times then throw them in the wash and they come out perfect. I've washed my cloth Trader Joe's bag about 100 times and it still works and looks great.
Man! My Bullshit Meter has been pegged for the last ten years. I can no longer tell bullshit from BULLSHIT.
My local grocery now charges 5 cents for a plastic bag AND the bag is biodegradable. Works for me!
Junk science at its most egregious spewage.
Cloth bags can be cleaned and reused, and are.
Plastic bags can be cleaned and reused, and aren't.
Most contaminants are already on the product being put in the bag, (due to poor handling) if not actually grown within the product (due to poor farming practice as seen in the last spinach and pepper recalls), and finally liberally mixed into the product before being put in the container (peanut butter recall).
Considering the previous paragraph, I'm totally unconcerned that the bag that's been laying in the back of my car in 160 degree F. heat is going to add any consequential contaminates to my food.
I don't really think you can call it junk "science".
I was watching Canada AM on Friday morning and they were "reporting" on this very study. The anchorwoman was speaking to someone on the other side of this argument thankfully (pro cloth). She asked something along the lines of, "and how do you account for the scientific evidence that fecal matter has been found in these bags?" She was going to continue on listing other items but wanted to drop the big one first when the Pro Cloth Pundit wiped it up with "No. No. There is a big difference between fecal matter and coliform." I love how they spin these things...
I'm curious, have their been any outbreaks of boils and skin lesions in Canada of late? Pustules? Face cancers? The re-opening of leper colonies?
I am surprised they didn't say "We can't not prove that cloth bags caused the black death!"
You know what else is full of bacteria? Me and you. The average human hosts 10x as many bacteria in their intestines as they have cells in their entire body.
I have seen nastiness come out of plastic bags that is orders of magnitude worse than anything I've *ever* seen come out of a breathable cloth bag.
There was great ad a few years back where the customer was asked - paper or plastic? In his mind's eye he saw trees falling in the forest, then oilwells spewing oil as he pondered the choice. An update would have to include huge agribusiness combines scouring the cotton fields, with detergent laced washing water pouring into the rivers.
Every choice has -some- consequence. But yeah, this is nonsense.
I find that it takes much longer to suffocate in a cloth bag. So, I'm sorry to say I still use plastic from time to time.
I was listening to CBC radio this past Friday, and I believe Dr. Richard Summerbell was being interviewed about this story. He wasn't saying that cloth bags were unsafe, he was saying the reusable plastic ones were because they are hard to clean. He stated that it was safer to use the cloth bags and wash them rather than use plastic reusable bags.
Cue some "Green" company coming in to save the day with with fancy silver-ion-imbued cloth bags (which inhibits bacterial growth).
... But is also pretty horrible for the environment itself.
Every solution we introduce into society brings its own set of consequences that need their own solutions. In our world, that set has grown exponentially and spiraled pretty nearly out of control.
Oops:
I already sent the nice Dr. this snarky letter:
Dr. Summerbell,
Might I have heard you on the radio speaking about re-usable cloth bags and health hazards that might be associated with them, in the event of course that they are never laundered.
This is so interesting, might you be able to provide some more information on this, perhaps internet web links to studies you've done etc. As long as the words aren't too big, because I'm not a college graduate.
Also, might it be that to wash a re-usable cloth bag, using hot water and ordinary phosphate-free laundry detergent would remove any concerns over microbial safety and its use?
-- John Harris
Have they tried something as revolutionary as _washing_ the things?
Especially after you take a dump in them, if thats your kink.
Yes, they're calling these events The Pattern.
There's a plastic manufacturers lobby group here in NZ who've been jumping up and down with similar rubbish about how great plastic bags are since the government's encouraging supermarkets and other stores to charge for plastic bags. I'd say over 90% of shoppers in supermarkets here use the free plastic bags (I take reusable ones), and we don't have a paper option. Unfortunately the government is not requiring that the 10 cent charge for a plastic bag be given to any charitable or environmental organisation. Basically the supermarkets can keep it as profit if they wish, but are likely to make some form of donation (not of the full amount) due to public outcry.
Although I tend to believe that cloth is better than plastic, calling the study "bullshit" without the credentials (a biology degree, for instance) to back you up is... bullshit. : )
Nothing really against Cory or Boing Boing, but strong opinions like that, for me, require some backing up.
Uh, no. Without performing a rigorous scientific experiment including data and a conclusion from that data that supports or disproves the hypothesis, then it's bullshit. But credentials are irrelevant in an argument concerning the modeling of reality.
The Internet doesn't work just because Vint Cerf says it does. Arguments from authority are unacceptable.
Likewise, Dr. Richard Summerbell clearly has credentials, but he's probably acting like a shill -- misrepresenting reality for personal gain (i.e. fraud) -- in this particular case.
#32,
Cloth bags, carried around in human hands on a daily basis, would likely be classified "generally regarded as safe" because millions of people every day carry around cloth bags as purses, diaper bags, and tote bags with no reported lesions, boils, or asthmatic attacks being traced to the bacteria therein. Not even from diaper bags, which do carry fecal matter around. No further study should be needed to call bullsh*t on this claim by the plastics industry.
@ #33 posted by zuzu
I'll concede that the methodology of the study may be (or IS) flawed, but the hypothesis may or may not be bullshit. My gut tells me it IS bullshit, but I wouldn't feel comfortable expressing certainty about it without the credentials to back me up.
anyone who works behind the scenes in the butcher shop part of any major chain wish to chime in now? Tell us about the ground "beef".
Also, don't eat out. Ever. (If you're the personality type who demands sterile food and a sterile habitat to live in. I, for one, welcome some exercise for my immune system. You have more bacteria cells in your body than human ones, you know.)
That sounds like a personal problem. (Offspring - "Self Esteem")
What's wrong with good old-fashioned peer-review (i.e. WikiScience)? Again, credentials are irrelevant. If you're wrong, someone with keener insight will be happy to point out why. If you're right, that your only credential is from Clown College won't change the fact.
Consider Brunelleschi, who had no formal training, but he was the only one at the time who could solve the problem of putting a dome on the Santa Maria del Fiore cathedral in Florence.
-- Ted Nelsonoh lordy, don't get me started on "professionalism".
Gawds I look forward to the day when it all falls apart and I get to make some "professionals" I know bark like a dog for something utterly basic they don't know how to make or do.
That's one admirable thing about Musashi, he may have been a psychopathic killer , but tried to learn all arts and trades.
Hmmm - might be a bit of terminological nitpicking, but all the "cloth" bags I've seen have been made out of recycled plastic, woven into cloth.
And yes, as anonymous #25 pointed out, they are better to use than the hard plastic ones since they can be washed, and, at the end of their lives, put straight back into the recycling (since they're made of a single, recycled/recyclable material).
It seems fairly clear that cloth bags are good and safe and do need to be washed from time to time. If the original study doesn't hold water, a degree is not required to dispute it. A sound argument would be needed to support it.
How can you dispute my claim that carrots are a danger to society if you don't have a degree in biochemistry? After all, they're known to be orange.
Remember this the next time you Canadians are bitching about how much America sucks. There's crooks everywhere.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/theappetizer/archive/2009/05/20/back-to-plastic-reusable-grocery-bags-may-pose-public-health-risk.aspx
the hemp bag comment
plastics
http://thetyee.ca/Books/2009/05/21/SlowDeathByRubberDuck/
Bacteria are everywhere, on all things, even in the supposed sterilized areas of hospitals. Hell, even after you shower with the hottest water you can stand and the most harsh soap available, within hours your body is covered in "germs."
Get over it, embrace the filth: your kids will grow up stronger. If your cloth bag is "tainted" then wash the damn thing (or maybe the plastics industry wants us to stop wearing clothes made of "cloth.")
Besides-- WHEN has an industry-sponsored study ever found fault with the industry that sponsored it, and then been released to the public? (If the study found evidence that plastics were covered in bacteria they would have simply buried it.)
Here's the Hemp Bag comment that Takuan was referring to:
"Folks, you should be using re-usable bags made from hemp. Hemp is naturally anti-microbial and doesn't suffer the issues mentioned above to the same degree. Hemp is 8 times stronger than cotton, and can be washed over and over."
He didn't even mention that in a landfill, the hemp bags deteriorate much faster than nylon or polyethylene; they probably fertilize more than they contaminate, and homeless hop-heads can smoke 'em! (If only for sentimental reminiscence.)
Back in post #10 I called for a bio-degradable bag that decomposes into something beneficial in a landfill. I think Takuan found it.
Most of us want to support the cannibis industry- here's one way we can: get hemp bags.
Takuan, this bud's for you!
There must be something seriously wrong with their business model that they have profit opportunity in designing and marketing a durable bag over their plastic disposables.
Just half the effort they've put into fighting a market trend could have gone into product innovation.
but The Conference Board of Canada endorses this study!
I stopped using bags wherever possible. It took a little social engineering at the checkout counter:
Clerk: Your purchases have to be in a bag, sir.
[ 5 minutes and an intelligent conversation with the store manager later ]
Clerk: Thank you for shopping with us, here's your receipt.
This has happened a few times. Interestingly enough, not at the Super Stop & Shop which has self-checkout. The other challenge is to stop them from putting a 'PAID' sticker on everything you choose not to bag, but more patient social engineering will achieve this.
I do bring one cloth bag usually to put produce in. About the only thing you actually have to put in a plastic bag is loose string beans. Everything else nature already put a wrapper on.
Then the purchases go in the trunk or back seat, and then there is twice as many trips from the car into the house with the groceries, but you know, we could all use some more exercise.
YMMV, I only have to shop for myself, and I shop twice a week.
why not a webbing and mesh coat so you can wear your purchases home?
Those of us not in orange jump suits are mostly naked. Maybe you'll have better luck over at Twitter.