Jesse Ventura debates Elizabeth Hasselbeck about waterboarding. Who do you think won the debate?
Jesse Ventura on The View
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Oh, I know the answer:
Nobody won that discussion. She got all the right talking points in that her side wants to hear, so did he. End result is no change whatsoever.
SMACKDOWN!
I ain't got TIME to waterboard.
Ventura climbs to the top rope of morality and delivers a brutal elbow drop to the proverbial face of Elizabeth's argument! Ventura 2012!
I am surprised Jesse Ventura's balls fit beneath that table.
I had never heard of this Hasselbeck thing before this (guess i'm not in the Views demographic),but, sheeeit she is ugly.like ugly inside.morally and spiritualy.Very unpleasant human.
I have to say, I have a newfound respect for Mr. Ventura. I always thought he was a little bit too libertarian for my tastes, and I never really thought of him as particularly bright, but in the recent appearances he's been making he is clearly smart and articulate and his positions are reasonable. He's someone I could actually imagine sitting across the table from and having a good discussion, rather than an argument. Of course, I'd be scared shitless if I were across the table from him - he's intimidating even when he's agreeing with someone!
And he is pretty hot too.
I'll admit to only knowing Ventura as the actor/hardman. But sweet greatness! What a guy!
I'm a lefty libertarian myself, so my bias is obvious. But he is one of the few politicians - from just this clip mind - that I could shake by the hand and buy dinner for.
I actually saw this the other morning. I'm a stone Whoopi Goldberg fan and often check in to see who the guest(s) will be. It's usually a crap hour, but they hit gold with Ventura. I wanted to hear Jesse because of his anti-torture stance. The blonde airhead was waaay overmatched. Having been waterboarded himself, Jesse was the voice of authority. She will keep that mortifying exchange with her for a long time.
I've been enjoying Ventura's "kindly STFU you torture boosting chickenhawk" tour of the nation. On this topic, the man could out-gravitas Morgan Freeman. Would pay much to see him school Cheney on the topic.
I beginning to think that Hasselbeck's schtick is put on.
Well I never watched The View and I've known Elisabeth Hasselbeck because of the impersonation from SNL.
Well I say she is one stereotyped conservative that repeats what others say. I don't like her and what she says.
It's easy to pass judgment when your not the one responsible for the consequences.
I don't watch the view because it's crap but I think Hasselbeck does a good job as the only conservative panel member.
And Jesse Ventura is ashamed of his country? Okay, leave.
Lovethe above comment... if you ever consider something done in the name of your country to be shameful, you should leave? As opposed to attempt to improve the country? Guess all those civil rightsy people in the 60s shoulda left... come to think of it, those revolutionaries in the 1700s too. Don't like the British Empire? Then LEAVE, Washington! Just WALK AWAY. Lulz.
freeenterprisechick -
You're telling a retired Navy SEAL / retired Governor to leave because he's ashamed of shameful actions?
What we have done, as a nation, is exactly what we have punished other nations for doing.
Just how deep is your cognitive dissonance freeenterprisechick? Can you sleep? Or do you have to chant USA! USA! USA! before you drift off?
"And Jesse Ventura is ashamed of his country? Okay, leave."
Oooh, a conservative troll. How refreshing.
From time to time, I too am ashamed of my country. Like when it elected Bush junior. Twice. But I am not going to leave. I am going to stay right here and make it better.
@14/15
Typical one dimensional response. If you don't like it, get out. Nice.
Maybe Jesse loves his country AND is ashamed of what was done in his name, and would rather use his celebrity to try and right the wrongs that were done.
I gotta admit, that Hasselbeck creature has some balls to tell a former SEAL that the waterboarding he endured during training doesn't count as torture.
I've been citing Timothy McVeigh for years as an example of a terrorist scumbag who we still allowed to have a trial. Hell, even Saddam got a trial (albeit a token one).
@ freeenterprisechic micjiffy: It's the people who have shame for our country's actions that make our country better. If they all just left instead of trying to fix the problem then we wouldn't have had abolition, women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, government transparency laws, etc.
@15
sorry, that should have been 13/14. carry on
@freeenterprisechic micjiffy: "And Jesse Ventura is ashamed of his country? Okay, leave."
Right after the Alaskans and Texans who are such sore losers that, when their boys are voted out of power, threaten to secede.
And, I love how the immediate response to the sentiment "I'm ashamed of what was done in the name of my country" is immediately responded to with "Like it, or leave it!" No room for discussion, no room for debate. Automatic fallback to expulsion. So much for a "big tent", eh?
He really summed it up when he said:
"The only people we seem to be torturing are Muslims."
That was follwed by at least 15 seconds of silence.
Right on.
freeenterprisechic micjiffy: if you love it so much, why don't YOU go to Saudi Arabia where torture is acceptable?
I've noticed that no host can resist referencing Ventura's wrestling past, usually about the point when Ventura persuasively pushes aside their talking points.
"muslimboarding" it is then.
FEC MJ: I don't watch the view because it's crap but I think Hasselbeck does a good job as the only conservative panel member.
Seldom do you see someone, even a right-wing troll, so blatantly confess that their opinions are based on nothing whatsoever.
I don't agree with everything we have done as a nation, but I'm not ashamed of it either. The great thing about the 1st amendment is the right to express a different opinion, even if you're the only one doing it.
Sorry about that double post, that was unintentional.
If more americans were like that man, the rest of the world would have respect for USA.
Remember, fear of invasion and/or nuclear assault does not equal respect.
It always amazes me when I see someone spouting RW talking points here on BB. Surely these people are not here of their own volition...surely they troll? BB is for funny,smart, educated people who are of the NOW. That is generally not something I associate with the mouthbreathers among us.
Comment #4
Coffee literally sprayed across my office. Thank you for the best laugh of the week.
Why are politicians afraid to be honest? Why can't they be more like Jesse? I can't say I agree with him 100%, but I love his honesty.
#24
One who finds torture immoral, that it is debasing to the torturers themselves, has also a right to that opinion and sentiment, a right to be ashamed when it is done in one's name.
Who are you to deny to them the same right that you claim for yourself?
Just remember that Jesse Ventura is only promoting Jesse Ventura. That's all he has ever been about. Here in Minnesota he was elected twice and I supported him but I think he did some damage to the DFL.
We did get some good things from him, like light rail but he also pushed for dumb things like a unicameral legislature. In general though he didn't get much done because he was a party of one. The Independent Party was pretty much just him so he couldn't pass much of anything at all.
Of course, now we have Michele Bachmann leading the clown parade but her career will be over after the next redistricting in 2010.
@26: If you call them mouthbreathers, you shouldn't be surprised that you can't have a good discussion with them. Deal in arguments, not ad hominems.
Here's a conservative author saying exactly the same thing to her crowd: http://itsonlywords55.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/if-i-call-you-a-libtard-can-you-hear-anything-else-i-say/
There are smart conservatives, but you won't find out if you keep up with the names. At the very least, let's outclass everyone else.
@ freeenterprisechic #24:
I don't agree with everything we have done as a nation, but I'm not ashamed of it either.
In this context I think it's clear Ventura meant "I'm ashamed of America for using torture" not "I am ashamed of America in general."
If a member of your family commits a terrible act you can still love and respect them while feeling ashamed of their actions. If my son stole another kid's lunch money I'd say something along the lines of "I'm ashamed of you!" but that doesn't mean I'd want to disown him.
As for your first amendment rights, don't worry. We all support your right to express support for torture. We just happen to think your position is asinine, and are using our first amendment rights to say so.
I knew nothing about Ventura save the fact that he was a wrestler-turned-governor until I heard him speak on Dan Carlin's podcast recently.
The recent interview with Carlin is found here: http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/csarchive#Show-151---Owning-The-Story
And he was also speaking with Sean Hannity recently as well; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeMuDN9Ewyc
Brainspore - Couldn't have said it better myself, right on.
Anyone can win a debate if they butt in and not let their opponent speak. Jesse made some good points, but there was no debate.
"If a member of your family commits a terrible act you can still love and respect them while feeling ashamed of their actions."
Not everyone feels that way. What you are describing is the liberal/nurturing family and not the conservative/authoritarian one. In the latter, if someone does something wrong they bring shame down upon the whole family, but you never admit this to those outside of your tribe/family. You're either with us (tribe/family) or against us. There is no in between. Everything is black or white.
I rescued a cute little puppy from the streets of Mexico about five years ago. Once we got him home and he had two meals a day, all that energy turned him into a firebrand!
Elisabeth's of the same vein. On Survivor Australia, as the skinny, starving whelp, she was irresistible. Now that she's got some fame down that witchy gullet of hers, she's nothing but a rabid parrot, repeating everything she hears on the right-wing circuit.
I wonder if Tim Hasselbeck got her home before or after she started frothing at the mouth. Poor guy.
"The great thing about the 1st amendment is the right to express a different opinion, even if you're the only one doing it."
Then where do you get off telling him to leave when he expresses his opinion? And after he has served his country, militarily and politically.
Mr. Ventura points out point blank that torture is part of military training. It is a special forces type miliatry technique, and we can get up in arms over the legality of it, but the fact is that it is a reality of war.
If the hyper-publicization of torture techniques will result in rethinking whether we should ever go to war in the first place, I'm all for it. If it shifts the focus to setting better rules for war and following them, okay, but I think it really misses the point.
Jesse Ventura... an American treasure. I honestly look forward to 2012 to see him run for president.
Wolfie: Ever heard of the Geneva Convention? That was where most of the nations of the world got together and decided what was unacceptable treatment of "wounded, civilians, shipwrecked, and prisoners of war." I agree wholeheartedly that we should not have gone to war in the first place, especially preemptively, but after that, the last administration tossed out the book and, as Ventura pointed out, decided to whitewash some words to make the public able to swallow them. I'm ashamed that we are even having this "debate" right now in this country. This war is all kinds of fucked up, but adding our muslimboarding into the mix was the real cherry on top, revealing the true intentions of the war criminals who masterminded it. Those that defend them are the ones acting "un-American."
I'm guessing that the goddamn sexual tyrannosaurus won.
wolfiesma,
In actuallity he regarded the comment to Vietnam SURVIVAL training (IE It was done to him, so he would know if he could survive and how to cope). He never said it was part of his tool kit to perform on others. The only comment he made was the equivelent of if Cheney thinks it isn't torture lets see him go through an hour of it. He knows how it is done, because it was PERFORMED ON HIM! I wouldn't call that a "special forces type milatry (sic) technique." His was in training for deployment in Vietnam which we were UP IN ARMS over such treatment.
-Tizroc
"officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged,"
How do people become stars these days just for being in some reality show, and why should we listen to them? Celebrities make the worst pundits anyway, but pseudocelebs? Can we stoop any lower than giving these fevered-egos-tainting-the-gene-pool any more of our time or consideration?
Good on Jesse for shutting her parroty little ass down. This guy seems to be the exception to the rule and is earning more and more of my respect.
Well, Ventura suffers by that same logic, unless you count a stint in the WWF as some kind of political credibility. His governorship was a joke, he's a 9-11 Truther (yep, THAT again), so what we basically have is an ex-marine celebrity who agrees with progressives on waterboarding. Woo. A fevered ego I agree with!
Props to him, though, for having the guts to point out that we only do this to Muslims. That was real.
I don't know why anyone cares about Elizabeth Hasselbeck's opinion anyway. I mean, just because she's the daughter of that cheesy Baywatch actor...
...what? She isn't?
Oh.
Never mind.
MOJAVE, i've been voting Republican for a very long time, and I read boingboing at least a few times a week. There are some guest bloggers whose views I can't stand, but there are some who are terrific. Don't demonize people just because they disagree with you, it's a very ugly habit. BTW, I am totally with Ventura on this topic. I too feel some shame as an American in regards to the torture of the detainees. I'm also not too surprised to see the extent to which Obama's policies are following Bush's. Gitmo is still open, and there is no real reason to believe it will close when they say. He's protecting his own party from prosecution in regards to the torture issue. It's a shame, but regardless of internal motivation, those in power tend to have pretty consistent behavior. Just take a look at the Catholic Church's success at preventing prosecution over the decades of abuse in Irish Reform institutions.
I mentioned I was a Republican. Well, I have no idea what I am right now. The GOP is in a shambles. I never could stand that mean spirited clown, Rush Limbaugh. He sure as hell does not set my political compass, but I'm no Democrat either. Just to be sure, I pulled down my pants and checked. Yep, everything is intact! j/k. Libertarians eschew organization to the point where a truly Libertarian society would get conquered by the first communist/fascist power that came along. Sometimes, you gotta work together for the common good. BTW, as i write this, the captcha at the bottom of the screen is "syrians we" Hmm, a lefty conspiracy I bet.
Ventura on Howard Stern show covering similar topics in an adept, refreshing style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFIZwC6z4Kk
Gotta love Ventura: An ex-Navy-SEAL and former wrestler who proves you can be against torture and still remain a tough-guy. This man should totally be president one day.
This is the same Ventura who appears on Alex Jones' new film "The Obama Deception" sitting next to Willie Nelson saying that "Obama's already fudging".
Palin-Hasslebeck 2012!
The Prophecy of Idiocracy!
I remember when Ventura was elected Governor of Minessota. He prepared for one of his first news conferences by dressing in a showy cowboy costume. One of his aides asked why he was dressing so flamboyantly and he replied to the effect "I'm just givin' them what they want."
Jesse: "Its a good thing I'm not the President - I'm an Independent - because I would prosecute the people who did it, I would prosecute the people who ordered it and they would all go to jail."
[Applause...]
Jesse loves the applause. For someone who professes to believe in rule of law he seems to have forgotten some important steps between prosecution and jail such as trial by jury, etc. Jesse is a showman and one can never really tell just what he believes.
Anonymous 51: I'm no Democrat either. Just to be sure, I pulled down my pants and checked. Yep, everything is intact! j/k.
Oooo, you mean it's all completely unmarked?? C'm'ere, let me fix that for you...
For someone who professes to believe in rule of law he seems to have forgotten some important steps between prosecution and jail such as trial by jury, etc.
"Oh, never mind then." isn't much of a response either. Mr. Ventura said that he would prosecute. Mr. Obama is tending strongly toward not prosecuting anybody. Which response seems more in keeping with the rule of law?
The waterboarding was done *to him* as part of military training, but it was not part of his military tool kit. Hmmmm, okay. And the weapons that we captured from the Taliban just recently, were manufactured and distributed by the United States military. The Taliban is using our guns against us. Okay, wait. No, that doesn't make sense. But I am willing to learn here.
Reminds me of one of my little 7th grade students about a week after 9-11. He was trying to explain to us how the guns in Osama's arsenal were the same guns we'd given him to fight the Soviets. "So like, these guys are using our own guns to kill us! Man, that's messed up!"
I'm operating at about a 7th grade level when it comes to arms trading and military operations, the Geneva Convention, etc. I offer perspective at about that level of sophistication. So, call me an idiot, I'm going to go wave my peace flag and sit in the corner.
I'll leave the superior minds of our time to address these important issues in earnest.
A month or so ago, the surviving Soviet generals from their Afghan war told Obama to GTFO because it's unwinnable. It's not a country; it's an arms exchange depot for superpowers.
this is why women should be kept away from the battlefield. They fail to see war is a game with rules, with things that are done, and Not Done. They instinctively move to total war (using typical female logic that if you are trying to kill and not be killed, you can and should use every advantage). You make a mockery of the whole thing, Wolfiesma. If people like you were allowed to speak, we probably wouldn't be able to have wars at all. Now be a good lass and go roll bandages while we get on with this thing.
*eyes well up with tears*
*trundles off to "Colonel Bogey"
Hitler Only Has One Ball? What is wrong with you...
"It's not a country; it's an arms exchange depot for superpowers."
Wow.
Hitler has only got one ball,
Göring has two but very small,
Himmler is somewhat sim'lar,
But poor Goebbels has no balls at all.
♫ La La La ♫
Wolfiesma may have misinterpreted what Venture said about SERE (though the purpose of the program *was* eventually perverted from surviving to perpetrating torture), but I think her(?) point stands. War breaks everything, including all the rules. All sides will target civilians. All sides will torture. When you sign up for a war, you are signing up for crimes and atrocities, in addition to all the "acceptable" destruction.
Franco tiene solamente un cojon de tamaño desconocido just doesn't flow.
If you haven't seen it, Ventura has a short cameo as a Man in Black in an X-files episode. Can't find it, but it's worth watching.
I dunno, Ant. Unknown size suggests unknown capacity. He may flow profusely :D
Although my researches on XTube have led me to the conclusion that there is a correspondence between testicular size and volume of ejaculate, my researches in real life have not led to a similar conclusion regarding testicular size and courage. I declare the big balls meme to be false and misleading and tiresome.
oy with the "right wing" "left wing" schtick
As entertaining as this was...and as much as I love the things that Jesse said, I can't help but agree with #38. There was no debate.
Jesse repeatedly interrupted her (with a deep booming voice that was sure to overpower) as if to say, "You and your opinions are so worthless they should not be voiced at all."
Even if the opinions being stated are clearly not original, thought out,and are already being spouted and overcovered by many, I can't help but think that she should have been able to finish her thoughts. As (to some of us) mindblowingly asinine, irrelevant, or ignorant as they may seem.
Jesse "won" by stuffing his opinions down everyone's throats, dominating the conversation, and not allowing an alternative to be articulated while de-voicing another person. While I enjoyed his points and don't have a lot of respect for said de-voiced party, I can't help but see the (coughmalecough) domination and it doesn't quite sit well with me.
Elizabeth appeared to be total moron. Jesse scored at will.
One piece of advice for Ms. Hasselbeck:
DON'T PUMP TROUBLE.
http://tinyurl.com/qedh5d
-- MrJM
"Mouthbreather" is a perfectly reasonable way to describe somebody who says, "If you're ashamed of America's behavior, leave." They're called mouthbreathers because we already KNOW there are no "good discussions" to be had with them. Giving their openly evil doctrines more airtime or page space is a form of appeasement.
If you don't know that strapping somebody down to a chair and taking a knife to his Willy Wonka is evil, you gotta go back to kindergarten and start over. "Mouthbreather" is far too kind.
Could you imagine if the Ultimate Warrior was a retired governor? It seems funny that he's never gonna be able to shake the wrestling past, even though you don't luck into becoming governor... he's out on the circuit at the moment speaking a lot of sense. It's great to hear someone plainly calling BS on this.
Also, conservative trolling aside, but the whole Yeah, Torture Rules and if you Don't Agree GTFO cracks me up. Really? That's your stance? Just awesome work there. Canada and Mexico will be building walls of their own.
Elizabeth is only getting a taste of her own medicine -- as soon as anyone on that show mentions torture or the military, she starts interrupting like crazy in a shreiking tone, though she's gotten a little better lately. Not that that justifies it.
Yes, if mommies were in charge of the world, the threshold for war would probably be a lot higher. So Afghanistan (precipitating event: direct attack) would still have happened, but Vietnam and Korea (we've got to crush the pinko reds) not so much.
How about Elizabeth Hasselbeck and Jesse Ventura get waterboarded and then record/present their reactions afterwards.
Seriously.
Maybe someone else said this, I didn't read all the comments, but:
I'm disappointed Jesse said "country" rather than "government" Its not a semantics thing either, there really is a difference.
Jesse 'The Body' Ventura = the awesome
@ kevin:
Yes, and saying that you're ashamed of your country is far less of a crime than torture. Ventura seems to be the only commentator in heavy rotation who gives the first shit that we broke the law. Good for him.
In addition, he seems to be the sole voice framing this debate fairly. Whether we gained valuable intelligence is completely irrelevant. We tortured, and it's against the law in every circumstance. As Americans, we should be holding President Obama's feet to the fire and getting some damned answers right about now. Instead, we're focusing on what Pelosi knew. It's so dishonest, it's laughable, but not at all humorous.
And to my knowledge, he's the only politician, former or otherwise, who has questioned the official accounts of what happened on 9/11. The connections between the Bush family and the Saudi royals are unnerving, not only because of the majority of the hijackers' nationalities, but also with respect to their involvement in the insidious Carlyle Group. Does anyone even care anymore that John Hinckley's family were huge contributors to Bush's political campaign? Or that his brother was to have dinner with Neil Bush on the same day?
When reputable seismologists say that readings are consistent with controlled demolition, we should pay attention. And when every serious thinker in the known fucking world says that waterboarding is contrary to international law, why should we defer to the judgment of deplorable war criminals like Cheney? Torture is wrong, it's inhumane, and we've done it without regard for how the rest of the world would invariably judge us. Anyone who suggests that this has made our country safer or more admirable should be waterboarded. Abortion has made us safer.
And I join Ventura in expressing my disgust at what our country has become. In fact, until Congress catches up to the majority opinion that waterboarding is torture and indiscriminately prosecutes all those responsible, I fucking hate this country. We should know better. Torture itself is too good for us at this point. We deserve far worse than Jesse Ventura's finger-wagging on a daytime talk show, but at least he's making his case. How does your professed "disappointment" in Ventura add anything substantive to this debate?
We're too damned ignorant and pompous to be taken seriously anymore, a fact which the rest of the world hasn't exactly ignored in recent years. Just as ridding the world of the human race would almost certainly benefit every other living creature on the planet, so, too, would the wholesale destruction of the United States measurably improve all remaining life on Earth.
Seriously, your "disappointment" in Ventura is no fair match for my utter contempt of American politicians and the apparently somnambulant imbeciles who keep electing them, myself included. The fact that we let them get away with this kind of shit is reason enough to express our collective shame neverendingly, but if you need any more of a reason, you'll need to check out our dismal excuse for foreign policy over the last hundred years. Torture is unpatriotic and un-American, and all real Americans despise what we've become.
I am ashamed enough for all of us. I'm embarrassed for you, who can feel no such shame. We are historical revisionists, an allegedly Christian nation of warmongers, and we're so fucking terrified of our own shadows that some of us will even accept torture as an essential component of peacekeeping. True justice is clemency; not revenge. Blind nationalism is the Nazis' modus operandi, and there is never any excuse for unapologetic cruelty.
Our government's inability to protect its citizenry without resorting to torture is only outmatched by our ludicrous assertion that "America is the greatest country on Earth." We lose the right to that lofty designation when we make excuses for the horrendously inexcusable. This isn't a matter of semantics. It's life and death. The way we've been playing at it, we'll be damned lucky to survive.
Surely now the stage manager of The View understands why Jesse politely declined a chair.
I like Ventura, but thinking that he could get elected president of the United States is just plain ridiculous. It isn't his views that are a problem but rather his lack of charm. He reacts to just about any question like it were asked serious and has a difficult time understanding sarcasm.
In answer to the "just leave" argument, consider this. Ventura has enough room to claim himself as a patriot. He's been an active SEAL and elected governor. He has demonstrated a quality many conservatives want to espouse: love of country.
Now, for such a man to say that he is ASHAMED of the US is not because he doesn't love the United States but rather because he DOES.
There's something to be said for being ashamed of seeing something you love drug through the dirt.
I don't see how wanting to prosecute those who violate our laws is "unamerican". Are we a country founded on the rule of convenience?
Hey Jack? Seeing as Ventura already HAS been waterboarded, maybe we can just count his opinions and reactions as valid already?
@14 - freeenterprisechic micjiffy? According to the Larry King interview, Jesse already HAS left and is living in Mexico. Someone who was willing to fight and, if need be, die for this country is so disgusted that they have moved to Mexico.
That doesn't make you think that maybe, just MAYBE something is wrong here?
It seems to me that there's way too much ends-justify-the-means talk in this whole discussion. Morality is not subject to the ends being sought. Further, this attempt by Cheney and the rest of the Bush administration to relabel the procedure as "enhanced interrogation" rings utterly hollow. Call it whatever you like, controlled drowning of a prisoner is torture and therefore illegal under both US and international law.
The people who wrote the memos allowing it, the people who ordered it, and the people who carried it out are all complicit in a crime and they should be made to answer for their actions. We would demand no less were our citizens in foreign hands.
hang him
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/21/cheneys-speech-obama-dese_n_206165.html
hang him
http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/nuremberg/ncharter.html
For the record,
1. I never said I condoned torture, waterboarding, GITMO, etc... and I don't think it's right to hold someone without a trial.
2. I also never said GTFO. Everyone is free to come and go as we please (provided we have a passport).
3. I also never said this country was perfect. We have had our bad times (slavery, woman's rights, etc..) just like every other nation, but we as a nation have always overcame them.
Finally, I mentioned the 2nd Amendment, guaranteeing free speech. I respect people who have different opinion than mine and their right to express it. It's that difference that's made America great.
Oh, get over it. A "country" is billions of acres of dirt. Can somebody seriously be ashamed, or not ashamed, of a mountain? No, the mountain has nothing to do with you. It was here first, and it'll be here after you're gone.
Everybody knows what he meant. He's ashamed of the people who did these evil things, and the people who put them there, and the rest of us who didn't stop it.
Why don’t they just kick Elisabeth off of that show? The sad reality is I’m more embarrassed for her clueless antics than she is herself. She is such a lemming who just parrots what she’s told with out a hint of intelligence in anything she says. At least she’s a Christian . . . so she says on a frequent basis . . . so I guess that makes everything she says right. Calgon take me away!
Don't demonize people just because they disagree with you, it's a very ugly habit.
I don't think that's what's happening here at all. We are demonising people who think torture is okay with the right amount of semantic wiggling. Those people should be excluded from civil society. We absolutely need to stop pretending there is any debate to be had. It is torture, it is illegal, and the executive doesn't get to exempt themselves just because they hate brown guys.
I hate violence, but I admit to sometimes feeling like I want to hit someone who pisses me off. Being a grown up means not following up on those urges.
The urge to hit someone until he runs away is one thing. It's not useful in civilized society, especially among the middle class, who have cops and lawyers to mediate these things for us.
The urge to strap somebody down, and hit them over and over, until your egg timer dings and you have to let your victim recuperate, so he don't die when you come back to do it again, every few hours, for months. Now that's something else.
Beyond normal primitive feelings of frustration or rage. Beyond being a grown-up or a child. Beyond the pale and beyond debate.
If SERE training has convinced anybody that torturing prisoners is OK, then SERE training should be stopped. Whatever value it ever had, it has now done far more harm than it ever did anything good.
And if shows like 24, and in the more general case like decades of cop shows where violence and threats of violence get actionable info for the heroes in mere moments, have convinced America's dumb-ass legislators that "torture works," and is heroic, and only weenie girly-men have a problem with it, then it's about damn time the FCC, or fuckin' somebody, cracks down on this shit in the media. Bad ideas have consequences, when they're blasted into our brains over and over and over and over.
@freeenterprisechic,
I'm not even American, but thanks to steady media blowharding from your country, even *I* know that it's the FIRST amendment that guarantees freedom of speech and religion, and the second amendment is all about the necessity of owning guns.
Unless that's really what you meant: free speech only applies to the person with the most ammo?
RE: #42 posted by wolfiesma, May 20, 2009 12:45 PM
"Mr. Ventura points out point blank that torture is part of military training. It is a special forces type miliatry technique, and we can get up in arms over the legality of it, but the fact is that it is a reality of war."
Ventura says he went to SERE school. I was in the Navy and had 2 people who'd been through SERE explain some of it to me. The whole point is to show the servicemembers what might happen to them if they are captured by the enemy.
They were also slapped around and heard that the female students underwent 'mock rape' because that was probably what would happen to them if sot down or captured. They were certainly not practicing techniques which they would themselves later employ. (Well, I guess some servicemen DID do such things; just Google-News Steven D. Green)
takeshi at 82 for the long win.