Joel Spolsky on the perfect electronics store
Why Circuit City Failed, and Why B&H Thrives (via Consumerist)
And what a roof it is: The whole operation is a crazy Willy Wonka factory. If you want to check out a product that's not on display, a salesperson orders it by computer terminal from a vast stockroom in the basement. Moments later, as if by magic, the product arrives at the retail counter, via an elaborate system of conveyor belts and dumbwaiters. You can try out the gear, see if you like it, and, if you do, the salesperson puts it in a green plastic box and places it on another conveyor belt, which runs, above your head, to the pickup counter. There, an employee bags your purchase. Meanwhile, your salesperson gives you a ticket, which you take to a payment counter. After you have paid, you get a different ticket that you take to the pickup counter to get your merchandise.At first, this all seemed like incredible overkill to me. But then, as I thought about it more, I developed a theory as to why B&H operates this way. With all the expensive electronics and cameras and lenses and laptops floating around the store, the system creates a series of checks and balances -- typically, five employees are involved in every purchase -- in order to reduce shoplifting and employee theft. That it works at all is not the most amazing thing about B&H, however. The most amazing thing is that the prices are so low that I don't even bother to comparison-shop anymore.
No, wait: The most amazing thing is that the salespeople at B&H really know their stuff. When I recently bought a portable digital recorder, the salesperson knew that some gear was not compatible with flash memory cards larger than 2GB and spent a few minutes surfing the Web to make sure that the 8GB card I wanted would work with it.
(Image: B & H=Headquarters, a Creative Commons Attribution photo from The Talented Mr. Nimo's Flickr stream)
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Yep, quite a few years ago I bought a Canon XL1 prosumer digital video camera from them and was very pleased with the pricing and service (overall).
Willy Wonka? The photo geeks I know think of it as more of a Mecca. Why, one of my buds razzed me for a week when he found out I'd been to NYC and not gone there. I've been on all subsequent trips and it never ceases to amaze and astound.
the prices ARE great. But I have had problems with jerky misogynistic salespeople. I am a professional DP and the guys there treated me like a dumb girl.
But do they have cheesy "themes" to each store? How about 30 day return policy on everything in the store?
If not, then I'm going to have to say Fry's beats this place.
The photo geeks I know think of it as more of a Mecca.
Considering that it's staffed (almost) entirely by orthodox Jews, I doubt that Mecca is quite the right word. ;)
Maybe I'm just blind, but I didn't see a link to the actual article here. So, in case you're looking for it too: Why Circuit City Failed, and Why B&H Thrives
Ah, B&H, where the "H" stands for Hassidic :-)
Personally, I like the shop better than Fry's. I have this quirk where, if I go shopping somewhere, I shouldn't be required to know more than the sales staff to buy something I'm not too knowledgeable about. Fry's customer service stinks, and B&H has better prices. I don't think the system is designed to prevent employee theft. Shoplifting, perhaps.
Fry's is OK if you're on the west coast. There's no Fry's in NYC, therefore B&H beats 'em. Oh who am I trying to kid, B&H just beat Fry's anyway.
bout ten years ago I was in nyc for a shopping trip
and they were closed for the w/e
first p/s were coming to the stores
Fry's is the one place in the world that Circuit City had better customer service than. I went their once when I lived in LA, and then never again.
Joel is right -- Circuit City went out of business for *abhorrent* service.
B&H has some good deals and service, but I still comparison shop.
yeah, the comparison of B&H and Fry's is inapt. B&H is great, so the only question remaining is whether Fry's is better than Costco.
Never knew of this store! Wow thanks going tomorrow!
B&H's prices are generally competitive, although rarely the best.
However, their service is in fact fantastic, making it one of the few places where I'm happy to pay a bit extra.
What I love about this store is that the guys behind the desk seem more inclined to talk you out of purchases!
I know die hard photo nuts who for many years have refused to get anything from anyplace else. They are honest with prices, always have what they advertise, and are knowledgeable about their products. The complete opposite to many, many other NY/NJ outfits.
I don't know. B&H has its charms, but the byzantine hoops you have to jump through in order to actually buy anything there, especially if you already know what you want, are a bit annoying.
I have a few problems with B&H.
First of all, they have terrible hours. The place is owned and operated by very religious jews, which is just fine, except they are closed for Shabbat. Just about every time I want to go there is late Friday or Saturday. The best store in the world is useless if it's not open.
Secondly, it's great that they have customer service and knowledgeable employees. If I wanted to buy a quality camera, I would probably go there because I know nothing about cameras. However, I'm a knowledgeable geek. I do my research on the Internet. I know exactly the product I want. If I ever do go to a store it's because I want to see the product in person and/or I can't wait for shipping. If I know exactly what I want, going to B&H is such a pain because I have to jump through so many hoops just to get the product. It's a lot less convenient than Newegg.
The final problem with B&H is selection. Sure, their selection is excellent. However, it's not 100%. I'm so used to Amazon or Newegg where every existing product in the world is available. As a geeky person I tend to buy very niche products like Happy Hacking Keyboards and many items only currently sold in Japan. It's impossible for B&H, or any brick + mortar, to compete with the vast selection of products available online.
And even when B&H prices are good, the Internet still beats them with regularity.
Brick + mortar stores are almost all dead to me.
I'm not sure that anyone who has ever purchased (or attempted to purchase) something from B&H either in person, by phone, or via the Internet could possibly make the statements attributed to Joel.
Pro photographers obviously haven't commented on this thread yet.
I had a great experience with them recently: they offered a great price on an ASUS eee netbook that i now love. Fast shipping without a lot of extraneous packing material. Reminds me of the good ol' days...good ol' days??
No, wait: The most amazing thing is that the salespeople at B&H actually make a real living wage - it is my understanding that they offer their employees pay increases as their families expand to help offset the costs of additional children.
Unusual, no?
Their service is fantastic? Really? I think they are good. But the idea their service is amazing and they are magical is overblown to say the least. In fact, I've routinely walked out of that place because their prices on $500+ photo equipment is not great.
And their service? Well, if you like being pushed like a piece of cattle heading towards the cash register, then I guess this place is for you.
For real-world shops in NYC, I prefer Adorama Camera on 18th Street. Less pushy, more knowledgeable and they don't have any of that Willy Wonka crap... But if you want that, I dunno. Adorama's prices are much better and they have more things in stock.
Also, their buying department (for you to sell equipment to) is far more honest. B&H will try to force you into selling them your old gear and make you feel dense for not selling to them, but Adorama has been a lot more honest and will tell folks whether they should simply post it on eBay or Craigslist instead.
Be careful folks. While chains have problems, not all small stores are angels. And B&H is not an angel by far.
B&H is the bee's knees. I'm a professional videographer, and I'm always amazed at the depth of knowledge of the average B&H employee. The first time I ordered from them, I had a question about the technical specs of a pricey camcorder. The guy's accent was so thick it sounded like parody. I figured there was no way he'd even understand my question. On the contrary, he not only understood the spec's I was after, but pointed out some other details and informed my why they were important in my decision. And he was dead right! I love it when "the foreigner" turns out to be 3 steps ahead of where I figured. Reminds me that not every foreign accent on the phone is reading from a script.
The place is owned and operated by very religious jews, which is just fine, except they are closed for Shabbat.
Well, that goes 1/1,000,000th of the way toward balancing out everything that's closed on Sundays.
I actually find it somewhat quaint that not only is their store closed for shabbat, but you can't order anything from their website either.
I have ordered from them, and found it to be a pleasant experience. I also enjoy their catalog quite a bit.
I've bought many products online from B&H and always been very satisfied. Never even set foot in the store, although now I will next time I'm in NYC.
While I love being able to go to B&H and see something before I buy it - and walk out of the store with it, without needing to stress about arranging delivery of pricey equipment in NYC - I am wondering if a job discrimination lawsuit is long overdue. When I see women saleswomen with my eyes in the store (instead of just women cashiers) I'll feel a little better about shopping at B& H.
Every time i go there, i feel like i am being treated like a prison inmate or a thief. Plus i always feel like i am getting the cold shoulder when trying to ask some store employee questions.
I grew up in Silicon Valley and am about as big of a Fry's nerd as one can get, but B&H is AMAZING. When I lived in NYC, it was the first "tourist" stop for any out of friends visiting!
Here is one shot of the conveyor belt system:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2227/2258174558_fa38749231.jpg
They will pull out the craziest, oldest, rarest camera parts and let you play with them. Its insane.
Although B&H sells other electronics stuff, its a bit of a misnomer to refer to it as an electronics store. It really is first and foremost a camera store.
I fail to see that there is any connection between a national chain like Circuit City with 1,000's of outlets and a small company like BH with a single storefront in NY. Does the writer really think the solution to Circuit City's problems was that they should spend more money on better trained staff? B&H is a great store, and both their in-store and on the phone staff is knowledgeable, but I don't see them scaling it to a national level any time soon.
the sad thing is, B&H has severe labor problems and discrimination problems, the feds have busted them for unfair labor practices. look it up? they can have those prices, because there are certain people that weren't getting paid fairly. you want a better store?
J&R at park row. sad to say, i won't spend money at B&H.
xoxo landon
"Well, that goes 1/1,000,000th of the way toward balancing out everything that's closed on Sundays."
Wait, what?
Looks like the TKF roller conveyor system we have at work...
Nothing really "amazing" about it once you see them in action for 10 hours a day. It's more amazing things like that don't break down more than they do.
I love how people become so polar to the idea of brick&mortar. My wife works in photo store and people all the time come in to "check out" something and then buy it online. That's nice and all, but what will you do when there are no more stores?
Oh, that's right you'll buy it online. Where returns are a pain the ass, you deal with people on the phone, and customer service is up the person answering your call....personally if I have a problem I like dealing with a real person I can have a face to face with.
Yes I buy stuff online. I also buy things in stores that I want to support. B&H and Adorama are both good places. Things like Circuit City, Best Buy, and Tiger Direct much less so...
Perhaps, Moriarty, you are unaware that there are large swaths of Earth where everything is closed on Sundays in accordance with Christian sensibilities. 17th century Christian sensibilities. God forbid ten thousand times that Jews should close their store on Friday afternoon and inconvenience any goyim.
Just a thought about the willy wonka-esque set up. It doesn't allways work out so well. I ordered a camera from them and they accidentally sent me two for the price of one.
Not that I'm complaining, but maybe the all the craziness adds to confusion.
On the comparison to Fry's, I would rather use a local store over a chain any day. when I can't find the deal I need I go to the internet and try to order from places like B& H.
Huge big box chains are the last place i want to spend any of my money. Here in austin the big boxes have paved over some of the prettiest parts of our city ( and are endangering our aquifer).
One last point- How much do camera and tech geeks love B&H?
I was turned on to it by one of their biggest fans and he's Palestinian.
As razzle dazzle as the sales floor may be, the returns department is quite the opposite. A small plain room with a surly dude giving you a hard time, that operates a bucket going thru a hole in the floor with a rope.
I rarely by video and studio gear from anyone other than B&H. They may not have the BEST prices or the BEST customer service, but with all things considered, overall they seem to be the best. I buy online from them (I'm in San Diego), and their site is awesome to use. Fast and easy.
I'm a pro-photographer in Baltimore, and I've found B&H to be a totally unpleasant shopping experience compared to my local shop, Service Photo Supply. While their web site is good compared to other online retailers, they have an inexcusably rude sales staff. Going to B&H with my girlfriend several years ago was enough to make me resolve never to shop there again.
Oh, I always enjoy the experience at Best Buy of
having to chase down an employee who has something
more important to do than help me and doesn't
really know the products.
I'd be putting sushi on the conveyor system if
I worked there.
I am always reminded of this BoingBoing post on B&H competition whenever I hear of lower prices. I've spent quite a bit on photographic equipment over the years and they have the best prices of anyone I'd ever want to deal with.
The last time I was in New York I went with my then girlfriend to purchase photo developer and other darkroom supplies from B&H. (The fact we were still doing silver-gelatin prints probably gives you an idea of how long ago it was!) It was --and apparently still is-- an amazing place.
Yes, it is run by Chassidic Jews and yes, this does mean it's closed for Shabbos. This is true of many businesses in New York City and we didn't think it unusual. Welcome to cultural diversity, as it were.
One thing that IS true, however, and which would derive from the very Orthodox environment, is that women aren't going to have a very comfortable time purchasing items in person from the store. The sales staff, for cultural and religious reasons, not is supposed to have physical contact with unrelated women.
On the other hand, my ex- never had any problem ordering from their catalog. Lots and lots of really good stuff and the prices were very reasonable given that they were operating out of metro NYC. It's nice to know they're still in business.
That store makes my little heart go all pitter patter. Wish I lived near it.
I'm with Jack @21. Every time I've gone to B+H, they seem to just want to sell me the camera they have closest to them on their counter. I once went in to ask some questions (about a Canon G2, circa 2000) and was asked if I had access to the internet. When I informed them that I did, I was told to just go online and check out all the specs.
It seemed to me (and still does) that unless I was spending several thousand, I just wasn't worth their time. Later that day I went to Adorama, where I was handed the camera, told everything I wanted to know and left the store well-informed. Since then I have gone out of my way to make every purchase and every gear sale there and have yet to be disappointed.
I will say that I was back in B+H recently and the experience was better, but the die was cast too long ago for me to turn my back on the 9 years of consistent service I've gotten on 18th street.
I'm sure the retail store is awesome, and this is not the proper place to complain about stuff like this, but B&H is the only company that ever ripped me off with an online purchase. Since then I've driven well over 100 times the amount they stole from me to their competitors. It's been several years but it's still a very sore subject with me and I refuse to do business with them for the rest of my days.
Having said that, I wanna see this store in person.
@#43 POSTED BY TENLOW
Why are you saying that? The mail order and retail operation are 100% one and the same.
@#42 POSTED BY MCCRUM
Glad to see someone else enjoys them! The thing people tend to miss is Adorama is a true pro-shop since they cater to not just walk-in retail and mail-order, but the myriad of photo studios and shops right around that part of Chelsea. Heck, that part of Chelsea has a long photographic history: Irving Klaw's studio was once there and the retail "Movie Star News" is still there I believe.
B&H is really a novelty. Remove the free candy bowls and conveyor belts and people would have better perspective. Odd how retail works.
Ah, those of us remote users fortunate enough to have been receiving B&H's excellent (and, roughly the size and weight of the phone book of a mid-sized American city) catalog for many, many years, have not had the (apparently dubious) pleasure of having to deal with the eccentricities of the physical store.
It fells a lot of trees, but, man, is that catalog chock full of professional A/V gear porn. And many great bargains - particularly at the high end. Also serves as an excellent door stop, and could probably stop a bullet, if not a speeding train.
So what im taking from this thread is this:
B&H is WONDERFUL!!
B&H is TERRIBLE!!
B&H is okay, but you can do better.
B&H hates women.
As a woman, the vibe I'm getting is "stay away." :P
Speaking of photography, that picture is creepy. I'm afraid if I go there I'll turn into a 'toon.
I visited B&H the first time I visited NYC and the combination of the rube-goldberg system (it seemed like serious overkill when all I went there for was a 10pack of Pan-X) and the Chassidic employees, dangling sideburns and all, was a fascinating, surreal culture shock for a teenage kid from the south. An awesome place that I always stop in if I'm in Manhattan.
@17 Anon:
I bet you're singing a different tune when the internet gets around to charging taxes.
@#46 POSTED BY TALIA:
Wanna have fun? They are one of those places if a male/female couple walks into the store, no matter who is buying, the guy is going to get talked to...
Sorry folks, I grew up in NYC and grew up with the racist/sexist B.S. of the Orthodox Jewish community bearing down on my secular Jewish life, and there are some things that are worth avoiding.
I hate that they close so early on Fridays though; as others have pointed out, sometimes this is the only chance to go shopping. They also close for over a week for the Jewish holidays, not just Rosh Hashanah and Passover but I swear they were closed around Hanukkah too (but I'm not sure).
Unless I'm looking for photography equipment, I tend to prefer J&R - better hours, they also have good sales staff and prices, and they have a sense of humor (check out their commercials).
What's really amazing about B&H are their catalogs. Especially the one for pro video/photography. It's the biggest resource for finding out about every product of any value for the professional or amateur, and covers everything, including audio, software, computer hardware, as well as accessories for video and audio production. And, it's free! Just buy some photo or video equipment and they keep sending it to you every year. Their 35mm SLR Photo Sourcebook is over 680 pages!
#46, I thought only Nazis defined religion as race? If you're an Atheist, say you're an Atheist. I am!
I prefer J&R over B&H. All the conveyors make too much noise and all the lines and corrals make me feel like I'm being herded into a ga- oh, um, wow, oooooooooooo... you get the idea.
"Perhaps, Moriarty, you are unaware that there are large swaths of Earth where everything is closed on Sundays in accordance with Christian sensibilities. 17th century Christian sensibilities. God forbid ten thousand times that Jews should close their store on Friday afternoon and inconvenience any goyim."
I mean, they're free to be closed whenever they want, obviously, but what's the "balancing" going on? Inconveniencing me for ancient religious doctrine tradition makes up for inconveniencing me for 17th century religious doctrine?
I've shopped at B&H online and in person.
Both times the prices were the best I could find anywhere and the service was great. Also, the international shipping (to Canada) was painless.
Their catalogue is great. I'd certainly recommend B&H to anyone interested in buying photo gear.
Before the Internet, before their new store, B&H was best known as a mail-order camera store. They ran more ad pages in Shutterbug than Midwest Photo Exchange and Columbus Camera Group combined.
Their catalogs have been a fixture in photo studios across the country for years.
Even in their current digs, they have photo gear that only a graybeard darkroom rat could love. And the best chance to get touchy-feely with just about every variation of current lens or tripod or accessory that other stores or online fronts wouldn't recognize if it bit them.
The store is definitely worth a visit if you've never been. I've bought a lot of stuff there over the years, mostly by phone or internet. They aren't perfect but the value and service are consistently well above average.
I personally have never had anything but good service but I can certainly see how women might get the brush off. May not be PC to say it but it's true, Hasidic culture influences the attitude of the staff. Yet I got way worse treatment at a plumbing supply place advertised as a Christian owned and operated business where the guy behind the counter asked if I was saved, as an unabashed atheist I got a very condescending attitude the rest of my time there.
What I like best about B&H is, if you really need advice on deciding what to buy they try to steer you right. They don't try to oversell you, as Joel and others have pointed out if anything they try to talk you into something cheaper. These guys understand how that kind of treatment leads to customer loyalty and future sales. I started buying photographic equipment in the late 70s, back then the rep of NYC camera stores way worse than today, the shenanigans you'd encounter were legendary, but B&H was a place you could trust to be straight with you.
Today there are a lot more alternatives but I still buy from B&H as long as their price is competitive, which it often is. The only other NYC camera shop I'd consider is Adorama, they too get it right.
My town in NJ had a Circuit City, and still has a Best Buy. I have no proof, but I'm almost certain that before CC closed down they and Best Buy were having a competition -- who can be the least helpful but remain in business. Best Buy won.
@46 / Talia: As a woman, why don't you try it out and make the decision for yourself?
My fiancé is a pro photographer and is in love with B&H.
Despite the fact that neither of us is religious, for some reason both of us really dig the fact that they not only close the store, but also the website for the Sabbath. It's just kind of nice evidence of humans behind the faceless internet, I guess.
Something nobody's pointed out about B&H's hours: While they're closed Friday evening and all day Saturday, they are open Sunday with "non-truncated" hours.
But I'll also chime in that J&R is equally-impressive. They occupy an entire city block, and are conveniently located right near the Fulton St. stop on the 4/5 line.
B&H is great... unless you need an order processed during passover. Unfortunately that falls at the end of most universities academic years when I find myself needing to close out that year's budget. I'd find out I'd have $25,000 to spend (no credit at most universities for saving $$) and 2 weeks to get the order processed. B&H has the best prices, but I'd end up paying more because they are completely shut down.
#36 posted by dbarak (myself):
I can't believe I typed "by" instead of "buy." I know better. Punishment: "It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again."
@#53... Thanks for the advice and believe me, there's nothing as enjoyable as being sanctimoniously told who I am, but I (and I imagine the large swath of Jews who identify with the Jewish people and not necessarily believe in organized religion, but may in fact also not be Atheists) will continue to refer to myself as a "secular Jew" or "New York Jew" or "Upper West Side Jew" because that's what I am.
That said, I agree with the assessment of B&H as a "photography" store... I usually end up at Tekserve for my independent, quirky computer store needs (or straight from the horse's mouth now that there are Apple Stores).
They paid. But still. The feeling of exploitation is palpable in there. And I can only imagine what it's like to walk into that store as a woman.
B&H Foto & Electronics (“B&H”), a large New York City retailer of photo, computer and
electronics, agreed to pay $4.3 million to settle a lawsuit with the Equal Employment Opportunity
Commission (“EEOC”) charging that it had paid Hispanic warehouse workers less than their non-
Hispanic counterparts and denied them health benefits and promotions. (SDNY No. 07-9241,
October 16, 2007). Between 100 and 250 workers are likely to receive a monetary settlement. The
EEOC, in a rather unusual statement, commended B&H for working cooperatively with the EEOC to
resolve the matter without protracted litigation. In addition to the multi-million dollar settlement
fund, the agreement requires that B&H adopt a non-discrimination policy, give annual training to all
of its employees, and report to and be monitored by the EEOC for five years. One wonders what the
consent decree would contain if B&H had not cooperated.
I don't know if that really qualifies as an example of salespeople that "really know their stuff". If they have to look up the difference between SD and SDHC, or use the internet to find out information that should be on the side of the box, they don't sound all that knowledgable to me.
I'm with those that like Fry's. The only customer service I really want from a store is the ability to return anything for any reason without hassle. Fry's is still the best for that, in my experience. My friends and I still refer to it as the "Fry's 30 day rental policy".
#3 : What does DP stand for? I'm bad at job titles.
I like B&H. They always gave me good service. However, I feel guilty when they send me that big catalog that generally makes its way to the trash.
I like Fry's, too. I sorely wish we had one in my area here on the east coast. Fry's puts Radio Shack to shame (in a massive, totally one-sided way) when it comes to electronics (particularly components).
I've dealt with them on occasion and they have been good, except that they sell the stupid rip-off monster cables.
Purchased online and in person.
I still chuckle when thinking of the time we walked in to buy some fancy, expensive Nikon opera binoculars. $600 or so, methinks. Guy completely argued against it, sold us the $60 Nikon binos.
How can one not love a place like that?
B&H is teh aw3som3! I only wish it weren't all the way in New York!
Why? Well...
Cost of 1 Panasonic AMQ 63-min DV tape
B&H in NY = about $7
Glazer's in Seattle = about $24
For a poor filmmaker this makes all the difference in the world.
Then there is also the fact that there's a few thousands miles between me and all the sweet sweet video equipment that I yearn to play with.
JandR is cheaper most of the time, and if you don't need salesfolk who know stuff (aka you do the research on your own) I would go there if I needed something pronto, unless they didn't stock it..
That said, haven't paid sales tax on any electronic toy since moving to DE..
B&H is pretty good. I wouldn't say they have the best prices, though.
And one thing that irked me was their used staff. I think their used department must operate under a different set of principles. Case in point: I went in to buy some amateur photographic lights. The knowledgeable salesperson knew that their might be a problem with the hot shoe-to-sync chord attachment that I needed to buy (I have a Nikon D100) so he said I should run upstairs to borrow a used model. I did so and the guy behind the counter was such a complete jerk about it. He did nothing to help me and wouldn't allow me to borrow a camera.
If you know what you want, and have made your decision on what to get without having to ask questions, Frys works rather well. Just be sure that if what you want is a shelf item, look to make sure you are getting something fresh. Frys will put returns that are presumably okay back on the shelf with a little guarantee sticker that basically says that everything inside is like new, with the same warranty, etc.
If you are looking for advice, or someone with technical knowhow to give you insight on a selection of similar items you are looking at so that you can decide on which, you are a lot less likely to find someone that fits that bill at Frys.
As a woman, I've never had a problem with the staff at B&H. They have a fantastic selection of obscure stuff, know where every last thing in the store, and know their stuff.
Can't help but love the latent lefty anti-Semitism boiling just under the surface of this thread. Everyone needs someone to hate on I guess, and there's still some permissible targets left...
@#57 POSTED BY ZUMDISH, MAY 11, 2009 6:13 AM
Actually you are 9 times out of 10 being steered towards a lower retail price for you, but a higher margin profit for them. This is a very well known tactic when selling lenses from Sakar and Tamron. The retail costs of these third-party brands are lower, but the margins are higher... And most of the time, these “bargain” lenses are just crap.
Ditto with even cheap accessories. Remember folks, profit is not always determined by retail costs. And honestly any folks criticizing retail practices need to seriously work in—or know someone who works in—retail.
@#64 POSTED BY THEWILLOW, MAY 11, 2009 8:18 AM
Exactly. It kind of shocks me this has to be explained. America is ultimately a Christian culture even if you are not religious and never plan on stepping into a church in your life.
Jewish culture expands past religion. And that's what I connect to.
Also, reading a lot of the blindly glowing praise makes me wonder: How much do American's treat "the other" as a novelty.
@#75 POSTED BY JENONYMOUS:
Ridiculous claim. I want to say this: The staff at Adorama (which I and others recommended) are religious Jews as well. In all honesty, if you have bought a camera or equipment in NYC chances are very good you're dealing with a religious Jew.
My issue is that B&H is simply not that great, rips people off and doesn’t deserve the praise the original article gives it.
Go to J&R or Adorama or order online. But B&H? It's a novelty store at best.
I actually also like Calumet, but their hours suck even worse (very early close time). Haven't made it to Adorama yet.
Calumet is good for some stuff but the film selection isn't as good as B&H's.
"Can't help but love the latent lefty anti-Semitism boiling just under the surface of this thread. Everyone needs someone to hate on I guess, and there's still some permissible targets left..."
I don't really see that, in this case. Anti-religion, sure, especially the more conservative, fundamentalist religions. Especially if they're perceived as misogynist. But it's not really singling out Judaism, and it's got nothing to do with secular Jewish culture or ethnicity. If anything, I'd expect more hate directed at fundie Christians.
That said, there is definitely a pretty ridiculous kneejerk anti-Israel bias, but that is not the same thing as anti-Jewish, no matter what the pro-Israel lobby would have us believe.
@#71 POSTED BY ANEURYSM, MAY 11, 2009 11:11 AM
A quick search online shows practically every store in the world that carries this (PN: AYDVM63AMQ) sells it for around $7.
Including J&R Music World which others have mentioned as well. The place doesn't have Willy Wonka-esque conveyor belts like B&H, but it's been around for decades, has better service than chains and has some better deals than B&H as well.
I think Joel Spolsky really screwed this article up. Nice spirit, but bad choice of local store.
@#78 POSTED BY JENONYMOUS, MAY 11, 2009 1:17 PM
If you have never been to Adorama you really have no right to claim most of what you are saying. Especially that ridiculous "latent lefty anti-Semitism" nonsense.
If you're going to claim that, you might as well label me as anti-Chinese since I think there are more crappy Chinese places in Chinatown than most will admit... But if you know where you go, you can find the good stuff.
I judge places on the quality of the goods/services they provide; not race. Applying that kind of logic is left for folks like you Jenonymous who see racial/ethnic divisions where the rest of us are simply commenting on the quality of service/product.
Oooh, hit a nerve or something, eh? Having folks make blanket statements like "women won't be welcome at B&H because it is run by Orthodox Jews" IS a biased statement, like it or not.
Own it or get over it.
As a long time resident of NYC and a professional photographer I am irked that such a poorly researched and hyperbole filled article could actually be taken seriously as a review or analysis of a store famously and continuously plagued by charges of sexism and misogyny. The B+H system of conveyor belts has nothing to do with shoplifting and everything to do with preventing physical contact between the Orthodox Jewish employees and their hell-bound, irreligious (and, occasionally female [and thus dirty]) customers. As an unaccompanied female you should fully expect to be ignored and / or condescended to. If shopping with a male friend the sales staff will direct all answers to that person - regardless of who is doing the buying.
Now I fully believe that people should be able to run their businesses along cultural / religious dictates as they see fit, utilizing whatever kooky customer service practices they want. What bothers me is the article's lack of insight into the store's practices and how those practices would negatively impact the buying experience of any female customers.
I joined BoingBoing just to see what it was all about. The thread on B&H is very interesting. I would guess that a well conducted poll might come up with similar results. Not necessarily religious in nature, but the love hate ratio may be the same. I will definitely wait until my next visit to Manhattan to make a final decision/judgment, however, the last 30 minutes have been very entertaining. Now where did I put my camera?
Refusing to shop at a store with unfair labor practices: not anti-Semitic. In fact, commendable.
ZOMG! They close one day per week because they're Jews!: anti-Semitic.
Many businesses and governmental enterprises close one day per week, most commonly Sunday. It's the demographic default argument. Christian (albeit culturally) unless otherwise stated. My public library is closed on Sundays. Nobody ever makes a stink about it being a religious issue. Put on a yarmulke and you become a meme.
RE contact with females: From first hand experience, I have to disagree. I think the conveyor belts ARE a "shoplifting thing" because I have had items put directly into my hand by the male staff before--in fact, at every visit (each time it was to read the labeling on film).
OTOH they have VERY strict anti-shoplifting measures in place; pretty much any bag bigger than some little tiny evening bag (ie room for one credit card, a lipstick, keys) must be checked.
Jenonymous, it's not anti-Semitic to say that Orthodox Jews are sexist. The fact that women are separated and treated differently speaks for itself. Heck, go to any Temple that is Orthodox and see the division right there. Women on one side; men on the other. You know why Reform Judaism took root? Because many people were sick of being told that living in the 18th Century was the equivalent of being a "good Jew". Women and men mix in Reform Judaism temples! ZOMG!!!!
As for men touching women and stuff, you really need to be Hassidic to be freaked out by that.
Which is the reason why this comment thread is hilarious! Folks who are claiming others are "leftist anti-Semites" barely know what they are talking about and seem to view "novelty"...
Look, let me put to to you this way: I could care less about the religion or beliefs of anyone who works at B&H. I feel they are over-rated and a horrible example of a "good" small business. This article's premise is highly flawed and wrong to anyone who actually lives and deals with B&H in NYC:
#83 POSTED BY DAYMONICA, MAY 11, 2009 2:26 PM
Give me a break. The conveyor system is a hook to get people in the store. It's schtick. It's novelty. And claims of it being an extra layer of security are hilarious. B&H has a paranoid level of security past this stuff.
Public libraries that close on Sundays are anti-proletarian.
Mama don't want no autodidact dockworkers
hangin' 'round here...
As a female photographer/geek, I have never had a problem at B&H. I have never been talked down to or offended in any way.
I am delighted to see women working as cashiers and providing directions. I am sure saleswomen will be the next step.
Where else can you go and tell the salesmen you are not planning to buy today, and they will still spend time with you and show you whatever you want to see? I learn a lot from asking the staff questions.
I do my own research an most items, but sometimes I ask for recommendations. They staff here has never steered me wrong, and often they suggest a less expensive alternative.
I shop at B&H a lot and I have never had a bad experience.
LBalsam, I look forward to hearing your opinion on astro turf.
I love B&H. They're a New York institution, just like 42nd Street Photo, the Statue of Liberty, the Brooklyn Bridge and Central Park.
I'll also add that B&H are a great online vendor. I always get my stuff on time.
I am a woman who has shopped at B&H and have always been treated with courtesy and professionalism. And no, I'm not astroturf, that insinuation is pretty insulting
Looks EXACTLY like that shop in GTAIV where you gotta shoot it up coz the shop owner owes you money.
I've never been to one of the brick-and-mortar B&H stores, but I've spent thousands with them online. Selection can't be beat, and I've never had any issues whatsoever. Every order has been packaged well and shipped quickly.
Jack wrote (in part):
"Jenonymous, it's not anti-Semitic to say that Orthodox Jews are sexist. The fact that women are separated and treated differently speaks for itself. Heck, go to any Temple that is Orthodox and see the division right there. Women on one side; men on the other."
Which has jack shit to do with saying "these people put up an elaborate conveyor belt system to avoid touching teh wimminz."
two. unrelated. facts.
Hey, you know, they also sometimes have this giant celebration around Good Friday; they're obviously cheering over Christ's crucifixion!
Again, I have had stuff put directly in my hand by staff before, and never felt any kind of discomfort as a woman there. New straw man, please.
Unless we can read minds, or know Anonymous personally, there is no way to know if his comment about store hours came from an anti-semitic position. As written, it was simply a complaint about the store not being open during his preferred shopping hours, and he gave the necessary background on why the store was closed during conventional shopping hours.
When I complain about liquor stores in some places not being open on Sundays, it's not anti-Christian. It's anti-inconvenience.
If someone says, "Susan is a vegetarian: if you want to borrow some hamburger, call Amy instead," it's probably not a knock against vegetarians. The speaker MIGHT have a gripe against vegetarians, but, also, he might not.
Antinous, what you might have done instead of assuming an anti-semitic insinuation is ask Anonymous if that's what he intended. Or perhapsjust stayed more on-topic by addressing the comment at face value -- for example, one could point out that different businesses take different days off (damn barbers close on Mondays! And I'm not saying God should damn barbers) and one way of looking at that is: that's just how the world is -- and sometimes it rains on picnic day, too.
Antinous, I see from a lot of your comments on various posts that you have a tendency to respond with wisecracks and antagonism. This has a tendency to degrade the quality of discussion by provoking people to respond in kind, and it could also make people leery of expressing their thoughts on sensitive or complicated subjects.
Dude,
When someone says they're closed because they're Jews, it ceases to be subtext.
ooh, did I miss something good?
OK, here goes: muslims, christians and jews hate women. It's integral to their ideology and demonstrated by centuries of documented behaviour.
Any parent of a daughter commits the ultimate betrayal by subscribing to their toxic memes. There's no need for it and no excuse for it. It's species survival contraindicative and should be fought at every turn.
I love men, but do not like women. I have transitioned through M, J, C in the last 10 years. I also like bass.
Antinous:
How is it you can divine what Anonymous really meant? Do you believe that anytime someone mentions a person's Jewishness in a context that is not complimentary, they must hate Jews? Or is it just Anonymous whose mind you are able to read?
Yes, the store is closed on Friday evenings and Saturday "because they're Jews" (your way of putting it, not Anoymous's). That's the specific fact that explains the unusual store hours. Anonymous made a point of saying it "is just fine" with him that the store is run by people who are religious Jews: what he minded was that the store hours were inconvenient.
First of all, they have terrible hours. The place is owned and operated by very religious jews, which is just fine, except they are closed for Shabbat. Just about every time I want to go there is late Friday or Saturday. The best store in the world is useless if it's not open.
Saying that someone's customs are an inconvenience is not the same as hating the people who have those customs. Maybe Anonymous does hate Jews -- but it is just speculation on your part to say so, and to do so, you have to ignore some of what he actually did say.
If a person were trying to divine some kind of hidden grudge behind what Anonymous said, they could just as easily say what he dislikes are "very religious" people.
Readers of this thread would find as much or more reason to suspect that you have some kind of grudge against Christians. You MIGHT be anti-Christian, but nothing you said is cut and dried enough for someone to jump into defaming you as a hater of Christians. It would just be unsupportable speculation, like your judgement that Anonymous is anti-semitic.
Other comments in this thread were actually much more clearly what some would normally call anti-semitism. If you complained about those comments, I missed it. If you didn't, I applaud you. If it is useful for people to criticize and troubleshoot humanity at all, then of course it is useful for people to criticize people outside their own particular group, especially in a forum of thoughtful readers like BoingBoing seems to have. Outsiders will often have insights hidden to people on the inside of a group.
Let's not throw the accusations of bigotry around so casually, eh? Sure, people sometimes hint at things they don't want to say outright, but they also sometimes say or seem to imply things they don't mean. Instead of jumping to conclusions and hopping up and down on the high moral ground, so that people see us up there, we can ask a person to clarify, to be more specific, to state plainly if they hate such and such, and so on. We can DISCUSS rather than fight.
The B&H experience is unparalleled but a) they're for sure not the cheapest, b) "window" shopping is often difficult because of the crowd, c) the staff isn\t the friendliest I've come about, and d) it's for sure not the cheapest.