UK fingerprints foreign six-year-old children at the border
Remember when the head of Scotland Yard proposed taking DNA samples from five-year-olds who displayed criminal tendencies so that they could be rounded up for arrest later in life? Here again, we see the British government mistaking Nineteen Eighty-Four as a manual for statecraft.
In fact, no one has called the Borders Agency to account. Home Office officials I have talked to outside the agency were shocked that official government policy is now to fingerprint children.Six-year-olds fingerprinted by BritainWhen asked why (question 226407), the Home Office itself offers a much more solid defence: that the EU requires it. What it does not admit is that the British government is almost alone in pushing the EU to ensure that the age when fingerprinting can start is so low. Home Office officials pushed the EU to establish a standard age of six, despite opposition within other European governments. The next time you hear a government official support the EU, it is not just because it is a vehicle for "peace, prosperity and freedom", but also because it is a vehicle to push through policies that the UK government would prefer not to pursue through the legislature at home.
The Bush administration rejected the contemplation of fingerprinting children, even within the controversial US-VISIT program that fingerprints visitors to the United States. The Department of Homeland Security is prohibited from fingerprinting children under 14, though it may well consider lowering it.
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Whenever I read one of these stories I think of that American General who, defending the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII said that the lack of sabotage was reason enough to be concerned.
When we act terrorized, the terrorists win. Perhaps if someone were to translate that into Latin it would be more readily accepted as a slogan?
Sorry, that was actually Earl Warren, at the time Attorney General of California and later overlord of the famed Warren Commission, who said:
"It seems to me that it is quite significant that in this great state of ours we have had no fifth-column activities and no sabotage reported.It looks very much to me as though it is a studied effort not to have any until the zero hour arrives. That was the history of Pearl Harbor.I can't help believing that the same ting is planned for us in California.It would be inconsistent with everything the Axis has ever done, if it was not planned for us in California."
The absence of evidence is evidence enough.
correct me if i'm wrong but the US started the whole thing by obligating UE citizens to pass through the whole humiliating US-Visit thing. from that time on many people in Bruxelles think that the UE should obbligate US citizens to pass a similar screening possibly even worse just to make a point (and i agree with them). i can provide only anecdotal evidence but through Greece-Italy-Spain-France-UK the only ones who where put aside for the shoe scan procedure where americans.
Fact is that Bush decided that europeans where all potential terrorists and the european states are all too happy to return the favor.
Oh wow, so removal of civil rights in Britain is the fault of the US. You must really hate America to believe that.
Wht bt th cmplt cnfsctn f ll gns n Brtn. s tht th ntd Stt's flt? Wht bt srvllnc cmrs vrywhr? r flt gn?
Thy r tlkng bt bn n shrp knvs nw n Brtn, bcs fr sm nxplcbl rsn, vlnt crm dd nt g dwn whn th bnnd prvt wnrshp f frrms.
Thy r ctnry xmpl t s n th S nt t gv p r rghts n rdr fr th llsn f scrty. Tht gs mst mprtntly t th rght t wn gns, thy r th prtctn f lst rsrt frm th gvrnmnt. Fnny tht nn f y gn grbbrs ndrstnd tht.
what does international law and treaty say about molesting children? Does the UK recognize such law?
is there in fact any truth to the rapidly spreading rumour that this fingerprinting of small children is in fact inspired and operated by a cabal of pedophiles that have penetrated British government and security? That the collection of photographs and fingerprints of small children has been linked by Interpol to an EU wide ring of pornographers?
Is this not true?
Well, I never liked going to Britain, now I have a great reason never to go again.
It'll be ok for the UK, though, becoming isolated and fearful of outsiders has never effected a country adversely.
Less children on the plane then? Worth it...
Do try not to mistake our overly paranoid and Orwellian government for the populace in general Urshrew.
Remember we're the poor basta**s that have to live with these Ludditesin power.
Gosh, people, maybe we're going off on a tangent here. This is not about 'hate Britain' or 'hate America' or whatever - it is about the growing insinuation of government surveillance into the private lives of citizens world-wide! It is about the assumption made by government agencies everywhere that you must first prove that you are not a criminal, or a terrorist. This is not a British issue, or a U.S. issue - it, like global climate change, is everybody's issue.
Maybe this is proof that there is nothing more terrifying than small children?
I don't think our government and its institutions have learned that just because you can do something (because you have the technology, the means and the will) doesn't mean that you should actually do it. What purpose could this genuinely serve beyond freaking out and infuriating foreign parents? A very stupid thing to do given we're in recession and a decrease in foreign tourism and visits to the UK won't help.
"They are talking about a ban on sharp knives now in Britain"
Really? It wouldn't surprise me. I'm sure it would do wonders for the obesity epidemic. We'll have a choice between hacking at fresh veg and meat with blunt spoons or existing entirely on takeaways. They really can't ban knives - we need them for cutting things.
My immediate reaction is also to call pot-and-kettle on this article.
I think the US is still leading on border-checks.
- You have to register online, a year in advance, if you want to even apply for a tourist visa, even though the US is part of international agreements that were designed to prevent this type of administrative overhaul.
- Flight companies must make all their passanger information available to the U.S.
- Even if you're only passing through and the US is not your destination, they still make you deboard to get your fingerprints.
- You get fingerprinted for 10 fingers.
- You get your picture taken.
Don’t babies get foot printed in the USA shortly after being born? I know I was. I’m not sure why, although it probably has to do with not mixing up babies? Is there something good that come of insisting that all citizens have biometrics on record? I’m so used to being part of a government data base that I don’t know what it feels like to not be. I guess identifying parts of my body would be easier…if need be.
@Cupcake Faerie
You are right. I humbly apologize to the people of Britain. Its just that...when I was young I REALLY wanted to see Stonehenge, and get there, and there's a fragging fence up around it, and they won't let us near it, and now the government wants to fingerprint kids... and I'm just all messed up about everything.
I just need some alone time Britain, ok?
"Oh wow, so removal of civil rights in Britain is the fault of the US. You must really hate America to believe that."
first of all i do not hate america at all and i would like to visit sooner or later if i have the opportunity. actually my brother will be visiting soon when (should i say if?)he manages the paperwork. and anyway an individual that advocates gun possession as a human right frightens me. complete confiscation of arms is not a new thing in europe or in the UK actually it is the norm and rightly so. having people with AK47's in the streets and going nuts about swiss army knives (or LED t-shirts)in airports is a unique american craze.
what i said is completely different. i said that the US started first the humiliating bureaucracy and fingerprinting procedures versus UE citizens.
what the UK does versus non UE citizens is of little importance to me. i can go to the UK simply with my ID card no questions asked and they cannot stop me let alone ask for my fingerprints. but maybe the UK as many other UE countries is pissed off of how the US treats their citizens and they pay them back. i'll go further and suggest that in the case of the UK the US gave them an excuse to use this type of procedure since the British are inclined to overuse surveilance cams in the first place.
it's no secret that an american airport is a nightmare where people get their laptops confiscated or arrested on terrorist charges for the most retarded things, like cursing at the hostess or being an arab (see previous BB articles on that). heck americans have 5year olds on their no fly list.
i do not approve of this retarded practice of the british fingerprinting 5year olds but i say that it could be a reaction to what europeans go through american airports. i'll add that it maybe so retarded as to make people force their goverments to withdraw those practices on both sides of the atlantic tho' i'm pessimistic about it.
the Home Office itself offers a much more solid defence: that the EU requires it
How? Britain is not part of Schengen! EU legislation regarding fingerprinting doesn't apply there.
Sonja #16: The UK and Ireland can opt in selectively to some Schengen laws, according to Wikipedia.
Maybe the whole point of the fingerprinting act is to catch those terrorist midgets masquerading as children? I know I live in fear of that scenario.
British government now leads the world in undermining the civil liberties of children.
assuming of course you define "world" as only western countries.
I cannot travel across a border with my own flesh-and-blood child without signed consent from my spouse.
It is illegal in many places, and strongly frowned upon in many more, to collect any sort of personal data about children under the age of 13 (web privacy, schools, etc., etc. etc.)
A foreign minor can't travel alone (see #1 above).
Is there any explanation, then, of why the UK government wants to take this step? I can almost always find two sides to every story (and yes, I RTFA) but I cannot for the life of me figure out why the fingerprints of a 6-year-old (or an 8- or 10-year old) are relevant to any interests or important for any reason.
I don't give much credence to conspiracy theories and such, but Takuan's post at #6 is the only thing that comes to mind...which is very, very squicky and very, very frightening.
It would sure be nice to hear a cogent explanation from the Home Office. (Of course, people in Hell think it would be nice to have ice water, too.)
Chris #17 Yes, I know. They're taking part in the Schengen Information System, for example - how surprising. *g* But saying "the EU requires it" doesn't mean the UK has to require it, too. Seems like they don't want to take credit for an unpopular decision (which by now isn't even law in the Schengen states - the new passport law says that fingerprints aren't required by children younger than 12).
#16, Sonja; #17, Chris:
...and the UK & Ireland decided to opt in to this regulation in December 2003; some four and a half years before the regulation was enacted.
complete confiscation of arms is not a new thing in europe or in the UK actually it is the norm and rightly so
On a point of pedantry, that is not the case. It is still entirely possible to own rifles, even semi-automatic ones and shotguns in the UK - you just need a reason and a licence.
It's surely no-one's responsibility to work to get these wretched laws & regulations changed but us British cits.
The really depressing aspect of this sort of thing is that it's the one-time party of the left that's doing it. As a result,
(1) I really can't bring myself to trust the Tories not to continue with the same sort of activities, despite their current claims to be proud upholders of individual civil liberties. (Some of us still remember the Thatcher government's record, the police vs. trade unionists, peace activists, having people executed in cold blood, suppressing embarrassing press reports et cetera. (ID cards were a long-term ambition of theirs; it's only due to the sclerotic nature of the civil service that it's taken them 20 years longer than expected to try to bring it in.) I'm a Lib Dem supporter, and they've a much more credible record of standing up for unpopular causes like civil libs and privacy rights on principle, but unless we finally get the hung parliament that's been wanting since 1987, there's not much hope for them to get political power.
(2) many of the people who complain about this sort of thing on other fora (not BB!) make my teeth itch with their instinctive, dare I say "golf club bar", "little England" anti-european xenophobic hatred of anything that might threaten their insular world-view... the UKIP tendency, you might say. They're exactly the people who cheered when the Tories set MI5 on Greenpeace and CND, turned a blind eye to criminally rascist and corrupt policing, pretty much invented the scapegoating of refugees, and all the rest of it. (Here's their natural habitat.) OK, my enemy's enemy is my friend and all that, but - what? No, no they're really not. And whilst they are currently loving the way they can work themselves up into a lather about RFID tags in wheelie bins or ubiquitous CCTV, the fingerprinting of foreign children is exactly the sort of thing they'd vote for.
Meh. Well, on a note of positivity, the Lib Dems campaigns page is here, and here's Liberty, who have a great track record for fighting such repression. I had a debate with someone at work the other day who claimed that such orgs can never change anything; a few days later MySociety got the attempt to suppress MP's expense claims thrown out, so perhaps there's some hope. As Harry Tuttle said... "We're all in it together..."
Fingerprinting seems to be big across Europe these days. When I was in Italy last year, I actually had to provide a thumbprint before I was allowed to enter a bank. There's also a major issue brewing in Italy over the forced fingerprinting of gypsies (including children).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7500605.stm
I have a somewhat idiotic question about this. Governments (usually "developed" ones) impose travel sanctions on countries that are deemed "terrorist" or "unsafe" or just plain "unfriendly". I've been on a boycott of the UK for some time now - it's a major inconvenience, but as far as possible I do my level best to not fly to the UK. If there was a public citizens travel sanction on the UK, and the reasons were clearly stated, would it not cause the UK to start re-thinking their moronic (and dare I say fascist) policies?
There are SO many things I find objectionable about the UK, as an Indian citizen 'forced' to travel there because of transits (AA/BA often has the best deals). But that's for a different post.
I just like the fact that there are SO many posts that bring to light the more-than-Python-esque silliness of the UK gov't!
#21 Ah, thanks. I didn't find this, only the passport regulations - so they only want to fingerprint foreigners, not their own people, whereas the Schengen states want both... *headdesk*
"It is still entirely possible to own rifles, even semi-automatic ones and shotguns in the UK - you just need a reason and a licence."
well it's not exactly like the US 2nd amendment like i present myself in a gunshop with a valid ID and walk out with an M16. licences for hunting or for security reasons is one thing, unlicenced guns for all is another.
HappyKittyBunny @ 4
Wow. Project much? Rampant gun ownership is not the benchmark of a free society. At all.
And this thread isn't going to turn into that conversation.
"When I was in Italy last year, I actually had to provide a thumbprint before I was allowed to enter a bank. There's also a major issue brewing in Italy over the forced fingerprinting of gypsies (including children)."
care to explain the thumbprinting for entering the bank? never heard about this one
the gypsie fingerprint issue is true, it was proposed by the lega nord (extreme right separatist party) after a couple of case of romanians(in Italy many gypsies are of romaniann origin)raping women in Rome. it made big news some time ago with the Berlusconi goverment actually proposing expelling all Romanians or treating them as non EU citizens although Romania is a EU state. it was just populist rhetorics and the issue was soon forgotten, after the Pope said that fingerprinting children was inconceivable.
Fingerprinting children? Double-Plus good that.
Remember:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
With a different justification parents in the US fingerprint their kids all the time. "Fingerprinting your kids protects them"
oh, I heard the chocolate ration is increasing to 20 grams.
"it's no secret that an american airport is a nightmare"
Hi Zio - no secret, either, that all British airports are vile security infested nightmares either.
And Arkizzle - exactly. Thanks for putting Bunny straight.
@ #19 / rollerskater
Good one.
"Hi Zio - no secret, either, that all British airports are vile security infested nightmares either."
sure i don't doubt that security nuts and "trained personel" even in europe will take every opportunity to harass an innocent passenger for the sake of it but at most they apply a regulation to the extreme say make you pass 30 times from the metal detector not like they strip search you or anything. personally i have yet to encounter surreal situations like those reported in american airports. i've never been in the US but from what i read (BB is full of this stuff) it's just absurd. laptops and ipods confiscated, obbligatory fingerprinting, people left stranded just because they talk foreign, or because they sport a tshirt in arab or a tshirt with leds on it or 5 year olds on the no fly list, people arrested as terrorists just because they argue with a steward.
say what you will of the UE but this kind of behaviour is outlandish and it just does not happen in EU. i've flown and driven between italy, greece, france, UK, spain, germany and portugal and my only main hassle was that when pulled over driving outside greece most police could not understand my IDcard (in greek) and would not believe that my drivers licence is valid until 2042 (not my fault in greece drivers licences expire when you are 60years old). 10minutes of explanations and i was free to go.
I find this puzzling - I've taken my son to England a few times over the last couple of years & there's been no fingerprinting. Nor have we ever experienced this entering the United States. FYI, we're Canadian.
I would like to propose the thesis that it is not the various political parties who are at fault for this state of affairs; it is the Home Office civil servants who have as an institution some very strange ideas about keeping the public in line, that they persuade each Home Secretary to go along with, doubtless with some arguments that just get smoother with each iteration.
You're right Nelson - they have some very odd ideas at the Home Office. For example, the situation as it now stands means that there are five year olds loose in the country about whom we know next to nothing.
Oh yes. I am British, but my non-EU wife and 6-year old daughter were both fingerprinted before I could take them into to my OWN country.
But here's something for you...do you know WHO handles the collection of biometric data for Britain?
It is a company called WorldBridge. This company is owned by CSC (Computer Sciences Corporation), a US company listed on the NYSE.
News article follows.
*****
CSC unveils visa centers for U.K. visitors
As the United States and other nations tighten visitors’ entry requirements, Computer Sciences Corp. has unveiled WorldBridge, a new outsourcing service that will provide applicants wishing to enter the United Kingdom with comprehensive visa information and process their biometric data.
The program stems from CSC’s February 2007 business process outsourcing contract with UKvisas to provide visa services for Britain around the world. All applicants for a UK visa must now apply in person at a center or microcenter.
Under the WorldBridge program, CSC will establish visa application centers in 15 countries in Europe, the Americas and North Africa and Middle East. WorldBridge also will provide information services through the Internet, e-mail and multilingual call centers to an additional 87 countries.
The first visa application center is in Dusseldorf, Germany, and two small microcenters are located in Berlin and Munich.
Visitors can provide their biometric data and seek general immigration information at the centers, which will also process their applications. At microcenters applicants can provide their biometric data after first having completed their application online at www.visa4uk.fco.gov.uk.
The British diplomatic mission in each country will be responsible for adjudicating all applications and issuing visas.
CSC of El Segundo, Calif., ranks No. 11 on Washington Technology’s 2007 Top 100 list of the largest federal government prime contractors.
*****
So - in summary - access to and control of highly sensitive and personal information such as personal travel and financial records, passport data, biometric data including digital photos and digital scans of fingerprints, has been turned over to a commercial enterprise that is owned by non-British interests.
They, would would assume, will have no accountability beyond the financial, no responsibility beyond that established in their commercial contracts with the government.
Being a US company ultimately, and a top federal contractor, I would like to know what access the US authorities have to this information.
I would call them to request more information, but a single call will cost "the equivalent of $14". They do not even have the courtesy to set their prices in Sterling or another local currency.
I find the entire policy of commercial partnerships like this in matters of national security highly flawed.
This is aside from the embarrassing fact that we clearly do not have the technological competence to run a system like this by ourselves?
Meanwhile, back in the US...
The whole fingerprinting issue really bugs me. Fingerprinting is for criminals. If you haven't committed a crime, you shouldn't have to submit to fingerprinting. No fingerprinting required at all; not to enter another country, start a newspaper, run a web site, fly in a commercial airliner, drive a car, open a bank account, get married, buy groceries, etc.
Fingerprinting (or any other damn biometric) is fast becoming the modern equivalent of branding the slave before he is sold. It is solely used to track, identify and control. No free citizen of a free country should be required to be fingerprinted to conduct their daily business. Its part of the steady shift from "a right" to "a privilege" that is being redefined in every part of our lives. Eventually our rights disappear and all we have are privileges that can be granted or denied at the whim of some unaccountable authority.
Our lives are fast becoming an endless series of petty indignities as we are constantly forced to justify ourselves and our actions to an infinite variety of neurotic bureaucracies.
*feh*
@12 - Canadian citizens do not require travel visas to the US - no fingerprints or photos taken - though in the last couple of years they have required us to carry our passports with us when crossing the border. So really, an easy way to avoid such travel problems to the US would be to immigrate here and become a citizen. It would probably be faster than getting a travel visa from the US anyway. Really though I'm just trying to initiate a mass infusion of BoingBoingers into our population... ;)
...as for the fingerprinting, I could possibly (well, possibly maybe, but probably not) understand it from a 'child trafficking prevention' rationale, but since the cut-off age is 6 that would be completely ineffective, and thus appears to be more in line with some form of immigration tracking or prevention, which is way more 'no-no' than 'ok-sure-whatever' in my books.
My whole class got fingerprinted when I was about 6 years old. I now realize that was not normal - my husband says he didn't get fingerprinted in elementary school, and we're both from Nova Scotia, Canada. Weird. So I guess my school board didn't care much for civil liberties. I'm perturbed that they took my personal information when I was too young to understand.
If the police think of us all as potential criminals, then who is left for them to protect?
Anyone else out there get printed as a child? Where are you from?
don't worry, that was just for tracking the control group.
Check out the "1984 is not a how-to book" t-shirts at this Cafe Press store.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_radiation_experiments
all ID cards in Greece include a fingerprint stamped on the actual document. i got mine when i was like 14-15years old(15years or so ago). ironically my greek ID raises eyebrows everywhere in europe since they are not used in seeing a fingerprint on an official document or a handwritten one for that matter. to add a bit more irony the fingerprinting process is not electronical as in scanned by a machine. when you get your ID card you just put your finger in 2 pieces of paper. and the actual ID card is hand written not typewritten. i mean there are the first name - last name fields but the actual data is added by hand. i kid you not.
what if the fingerprint registers became targets for every hacker group on the planet? Just scrambling records is as good as erasing them.
@fullerenedream
Ah! Finally. We found #31. Just stay put... you'll be coming home very soon.
How exactly does the US doing something horrible justify the UK doing something horrible? Is this a competition to see which country can negate the most civil rights?
"How exactly does the US doing something horrible justify the UK doing something horrible?"
justify no explain yes. and it's not only the UK. i'm told from south american friends that airport authorities in their countries (namely argentina and brazil) deliberately delay and harass US citizens as a reprisal for US policies versus foreigners (actually i remember news articles about brazilians hardening visa procedures as a reprisal for the US visit thing back at the day tho' i can't find links) as i said in a previous post i personally saw the same attitude in greece and italy. maybe it's not heavy handed as fingerprinting but there is definetely a directive from above to make americans taste a bit of their own medicine.
Aha! The business angle explains a lot -- busywork for both the American corporation and the UK civil servants, justifying their 'work' -- after all, who can argue with security? This tactic is standard in IT too.
Get em young and they don't know any better.
If you ever disagree with anti-terrorist measures then you must be a terrorist. If you disagree with the witch hunt then you must be a witch. If you disagree with the Spanish Inquisition.. well then.. God help you.
"do what we're told, buy what we're sold,
Invest in gold, and never get old."
1984 is an operations manual, in the sense that it is a key to understanding all these changes that are transforming what used to be called "free society" into something you could call "Godwinocracy".
Noooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...
Sorry, I had to.
You must be Spanish?
@ #41, fullerenedream:
"Anyone else out there get printed as a child?"
Yep, but not by my own country. Fingerprinted in 1982 at age 5, at Jakarta airport, when my (British) family moved to Indonesia for a year. I thought it was pretty exciting.
(Two years later, back in England, I went on a primary school trip to the local police station. The friendly policeman offered to let one of us have our fingerprints taken. He chose me, but I declined politely on the grounds that I'd already done it for real, so someone else should get to have a go. I can't remember whether I explained the circumstances...)