Proposal: buy a London Tube ticket, consent to being searched
Glyn sez, "Passengers who buy a London train or tube ticket would automatically be giving their consent to be searched, under proposals now under consideration."
Senior British Transport police officials told MPs today that they wanted to change the railways' "conditions of carriage" to close a loophole that means officers using mobile knife-detecting arches at stations have no legal power to search someone who sets them off unless they have a reasonable suspicion that they are breaking the law.Police seek new rights for searching rail passengers (Thanks, Glyn!)
the latest
latest episodes
"Police seek new rights...."
Well, of course they do. The cops try to intrude further into the rights of the citizenry all the time. Doesn't matter that they could have given the matter of these "knife-detecting arches" BEFORE they bought them, and realized that oh whoops, illegal search... they've spent the money, so let's change the law to make them usable!
I'm fine with fixing a loophole so the plod can search people who set off dumb scanners, but demolishing all established search and seizure rights to get that job done is a comically obvious overreaction.
I'm glad they're just "knife-detecting arches". I would hate to be targeted for a strip search by "wristwatch-detecting arches" or "belt-buckle detecting arches".
Of course, the only way to keep is safe is with "teeth and fingernail detecting arches". The Terrorists can gum and paw me all they want, I will no longer fear them.
As the automated fear-machine reminds us every 5 minutes on the subway, besides exhorting us to report "suspicious" activity, "backpacks and other large objects are subject to random search by the NYC Police department" never mind the 4th Amendment, it's just "a goddamned piece of paper"
must get fiberglass filled plastic, Zytel and other non-metallic knife blade material concession.
My first thought was that - aside from the difference in the price of entry - this isn't so different from "consenting" to be searched when you buy an air ticket. But of course the search you undergo when you board a plane is ostensibly intended to prevent you destroying the aircraft or nearby architecture. A knife-search when you enter the Underground isn't designed to stop you going on a stabbing rampage on the Bakerloo line. It's just exploiting a convenient "choke point" at which the police can carry out searches intended to support a broader policy.
I bet that they're allowed to present in evidence anything else that they "happen" to find at the time. So it's really just a pretext for a random - or not-so-random - search. All they need is a button that allows the operator to trigger the 'beep' manually (and I've heard anecdotes to suggest that such buttons exist) and they can search anyone they want.
Are the "sus laws" coming back through the back door?
Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
Not being able to search people without reasonable suspicion of illegality is a "loophole"?
Some sort of 'unintended consequence' of laws against unreasonable search?
get lost.
We lived under IRA bombings and didn't need this rubbish.
The Stasi, Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler would have been proud
@rob
If I read the article correctly, it's not just people who set off scanners (as the quote indicates), but:
The transport police chief told MPs they could currently use the arches only to scan people who volunteered to go through them, unless they had a reasonable suspicion the travellers were breaking the law.
Life imitates Monty Python.
Police Constable Pan Am:
"What's all this then? Young lady, I have developed a reasonable suspicion that you have secreted a "pointed-stick" somewhere upon your person. The "pointed-stick detecting arch" does not lie. The Inspector and I are duty bound to remove your clothing."
Innocent Traveller:
"But I'm not a young lady."
Police Constable Pan Am:
"One more peep out of you and I'll do you for terrorism"
Innocent Traveller:
"Terrorism. Blimey. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition."
(Roll Credits...)
http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/polpanam.htm
"knife-detecting arches"
What the hell is a "knife-detector"? Does it differ at all from a metal detector?
Maybe it's a special device that only looks for metal that is in the shape of a knife, and combined that with special facial recognition software that looks for telltale "probably carrying a knife" microexpressions.
It might also just be a machine that sometimes goes beep.
Another reminder why the Americans seceded from the British Empire, and why the USA laid down strict limitations on Government's power in its very founding documents.
It's a shame we Americans are now giving up our civil rights with much less of a fight than it took to win them.
But it's good to see we haven't sunk back to the British level. Yet.
Step 1: Own an indispensable public utility
Step 2: Remove any inconvenient rights with a EULA
Step 3: Oppress!
That's terrible - surely you can't expect that to actually work. There's a case in Britain where a car park company who washed their hands of all responsibility for people who decided to pay to park there would have needed to hang the sign telling people that outside the car park "with a big red hand" pointing to the unexpected condition. I expect that to be the first challenge before you start on human rights or unreasonableness issues.
Does anyone who buys a ticket to stand, squashed up on the Tube expect that ticket to mean they can get searched? Not particularly.
angusm:
All they need is a button that allows the operator to trigger the 'beep' manually (and I've heard anecdotes to suggest that such buttons exist) and they can search anyone they want.
There is something funny going on with the detector at my local county office building. I went through one way and it beeped, I ducked back through abruptly and it didn't beep.
"mobile knife-detecting arches at stations"
Give me fucking strength.
I have seen these ludicrous setups at central London tube stations. I had an argument with one of the police running it about how the whole thing as just pointless and counter-productive, and he agreed.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/71509733@N00/2900295596/
Yet another instance of security theatre.
Metal-free ceramic knives are easy to get hold of and are very sharp indeed...
Well, at least they haven't quite managed to work up the gumption to request summary justice powers. Yet.
just points out how morally bankrupt the police really are. They know damned well it's bullshit, and they go along with it anyway to peddle their little power trip. And they wonder why no one respects them. Or at least they pretend to.
The War On Tourism continues.
I got news for you all- the Delhi Metro already frisks passengers and checks their belongings after they've passed through a metal detector.
Funny -- I keep hearing about these "ceramic knives," and thinking "well, yeah, in principle, but who's actually going to make a ceramic knife?"
...then I remembered that I just noticed that my hardware store sells a very big line of extremely sharp and durable ceramic knives.
ceramic coated metal?
Pure ceramic, I think. The description here certainly makes it sound that way. The article here however notes that some manufacturers are now putting small amount of metal in the knives specifically to deal with the problem that they don't get picked up by metal detectors.
Wow, for once we're actually lagging behind the USA:
(my emphasis)(Any USians want to comment on this? Is it true, limited to very specific services, or just the Guardian bullshitting?)
If there were any civil liberty groups in London who had an interest in direct action, they could easily set up one where 100 people in a row carried, oh, say 4 or 5 pounds of ferrous metal through these arches during rush hour.
Bugs - it's a state by state thing here in the US. In NYC, it is to the extent that they can search your bags, sad to say. I don't think they can search your person though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_knife
I see.
http://www.trueswords.com/cold-steel-cruciform-zytel-spike-p-3820.html
if only there were a high tech way to defeat this..
http://www.crystalbuffalo.com/collectors/blackwolf-serrated-obsidian-knife-with-cactus-handle.jpg
@ 10; Wouldn't exercising your right to not participate in a search be construed as 'suspicious behaviour' allowing them to search you?
Hey! We beat the British on this by years. To get on the PATH in NJ to NYC you are reminded everyday: "All Bags and Packages are subject to inspection by the Port Authority at Any time." Over and over and over and over again.
GB and USA need to have a Dystopian off.
what if every passenger had a pocketful of coins? Every. Single. Passenger.
(Londoners really should read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress)
Well, it's more creative than asking for a bailout of the automotive industry...
@TharkLord #3 My (limited) experience of them in London has been they seem to work as black people detectors.
http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&q=ceramic+knives&btnG=Search+Images