Understanding Islam Through Virtual Worlds launch in NYC, Jan 29
My pals Rita King and Josh Fouts have just completed an ambitious public diplomacy report on using virtual worlds to create understanding between Islamic and western societies. The book itself is presented in Understanding-Comics-style graphic novel format. They're holding a public launch in New York this month and I expect the report will hit the web around the same time.
Understanding Islam through Virtual Worlds report to release January 29
After a year of research spanning four continents and interviews with dozens of people across the virtual world of the Internet Dancing Ink Productions is pleased to announce the release of our findings from the Understanding Islam through Virtual Worlds project on Thursday, January 29 at 6 PM Eastern at the Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs. Space is limited so please RSVP to attend the event.The report will include a trilogy of deliverables, including formal public diplomacy policy recommendations for the Obama Administration; a broadcast-quality short machinima documentary; and a graphic book chronicling the people, places and findings of the project.
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Haha. As a Muslim it's so weird to read about people trying to understand Islam as if it's some strange alien entity. Do we really need to understand it through "Virtual Worlds"?
Well, as a muslim, do you feel like western societies have a nuanced, thorough understanding of Islam?
#1: westerners do largely regard Islamers -- or more specifically, that "other side of the world" -- as some strange alien entity. Much of it is geography; that which you do not know you fear.
Sadly, unfortunately, yes. Anything to bridge the gap, even if done through metaphor, is a good thing.
As a Muslim, I am happy that anyone out there is trying to understand Islam or Muslims, whether it's through virtual worlds or whatever. This report looks really interesting.
What disappoints me and frankly pisses me off a little is that despite their clear intent to offer some genuine, nuanced understanding of Islam and Muslims, they chose to use The Single Most Hackneyed And Stereotypical Image Used To Represent Islam and Muslims as the cover!
WTF?!?!?!
You think average Westerners will only be interested in the thing if you put Princess Jasmin on the front cover looking all hot and seductive and giving the reader a come hither glance from behind her face veil?
How about using this as a chance to put out some real representations of actual human beings, not colonialized abstractions?
(Here is what Newsweek did, as an example: http://www.newscom.com/db/PRN/prnphotos/docs/063/756.thm)
Whatever. Just another brick in the wall, I guess.
It will be interesting to see if it presents real facts or good facts.
Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and so on... always the same thing, I don't want to insult people who believe in the legends of their ancestors, and who worship the poetry of holy scriptures or whatever, and I agree that there is a need of understanding between cultures, but why are people so nice with organized religion!
And I'm the first to stand up against prejudices! The imperialist mentality of the western world wasn't a good thing for reciprocal respect and understanding.
But When the hell will we stop with this whole "religion respect" thing. Religion only reinforces misunderstandings between cultures. Religions are what separates cultures! Let's make religion a private busyness, and not something that represents a country, culture or civilization, let's evolve!
I admittedly do not know enough about Islam, but even I know that having a woman with pouting lips stare seductively from her hijab doesn't exactly show much understanding of Islam, specifically its emphasis on modesty.
I'm glad I wasn't the first to comment on that heinous graphic.
The problem Islam has is that it has yet to receive a good trashing dose of liberalism. Islam looks more like pre-Lutheran Christianity than it does anything else. That isn't to say the forces of modernity have not sunk their claws into Islam, but it hasn't yet undergone the sweeping liberalization* and fragmentation that Christianity has seen in anywhere near the same degree. The result is that Islam tends to be poster child for archaic religions.
If you look at the conservative orthodox forms of Islam that exist in sizable populations, you don't see anything that hasn't at one point existed in Christianity's history. The issue is that that strain of extreme conservative orthodox is today extremely marginalized in Christianity, while in the Islamic world it still exists in abundance. With the exception of the Vatican, there really are no theocratic states in the world other than Islamic states. Islam has a bad image because there are a lot of legitimately bad things going on in the Islamic world (at least by western tastes).
I personally don't think that love and understanding of the many anti-liberal strains of Islam is the answer. What goes on in Saudi Arabia for instance is bad and should be rejected, "OMG but that is their religion" be damned. What is important though is to realize that Islam is in flux and that not everyone can be painted with the same broad brush. While you have horrible oppressive strains of Islam, you also have more liberal takes on Islam that are no more offensive than any other boring old religion. Don't paint all Islam as illiberal crap dredged up from the 10th century. Instead, judge it as it comes and be open to the fact that there exists a sizable population (especially in the west) of people who are follow Islam and are as boring and dull liberal folk as everyone else.
*When I say liberal, I mean liberal the traditional sense of the word, not "leftist".
Woah, I've been going about this whole subjugation of women thing all wrong. I didn't realize the point of hijab was to make you speculate about what she is wearing underneath!
You know, with its sexual obsession, Islam could be described as one big S&M role playing fetish. I understand so much more now, thanks Understanding Islam!
@Sodium
I'm not a Muslim but the first impression I got was the cover was sexed up, which either suggests a lack of faith in the content or a belief that to reach a wider audience (read the kind of people who supported McCain) they felt they needed a honey pot (for WASPS, did you see what I did there?).
The other thing that struck me is that they chose a face that could be 'merican, which as a non American annoys me a lot, I can't understand why people don't feel so incredibly patronised in the US by what's essentially the entire mainstream media default stance. All non American books must have a US version where they swap "pavement" for "sidewalk " et al because the publishers feel people don't know what "pavement" means in the US. Even American books being made into films don't escape, "Silence of the Lambs" (film) has Hannibal eating the census taker's liver with fava beans and a glass of Chianti , because the studios thought too many people would know what "Amarone della Valpollicella" would be - FFS if he drank it, it must be at least a liquid.
Ok I feel better now.
Oh wait...
Of course it looks like they threw the graphic together in Second Life which might explain it. But don't judge a book by its cover right? That bit about "After a year of research spanning four continents" in the press release has me raising my eyebrows.
It sounds very like the kind of spin you used to get about US journalists articles on Japan back in the Eighties and early Nineties when Japanese companies started buying up major stakes in US companies and institutions. You know the ones where the some big name hack flies into Tokyo for 3 days, has no idea about Japan, can't speak Japanese but professes to have 'discovered' the very soul of Japan while writing about used schoolgirls' panties being sold in vending machines.
I started out on the net long enough ago to remember the Internet 0.5beta, and have spent a lot of time in all kinds of Virtual Worlds in order of appearance (in my life) Web chat, IRC, Mush, Moo, all kinds of online games games,and Second Life. I have friends and acquaintances in just about every corner of the globe that has an internet connection. I have extensively travelled, lived abroad for coming up on equally as long as I lived in my country of origin and have met people from all walks of life in many different countries, and I would only claim to have some marginal insight to countries I have actually lived in for periods much longer than 1 year.
Sounds more like someone wrote a sociology thesis and then thought it might make a buck or two to pay off their student loan.
Ok there, I think that did it. I'm done.
If you want to understand Islam, or any other religion for that matter, read their texts. The Qur'an is a misogynistic vindictive missive that promotes beating your wife and taking your slaves to bed.
The interesting part concerning wife-beating, is all translations not only give wife-beaters the green light, but that they may beat those "from whom you fear disobedience", as in before the fact.Muslims will say, no you don't understand us, or you're reading a poor translation. Muslims, like Christians, also fend off criticism, by positing non-believers can not understand the Qur'on, only true believers can understand. Another way Muslims fend off critics is to say the Qur'on can only be fairly criticized when read in the original Arabic.
Other criticisms of Islam are met with the statement that the Qur'on does not say this or that. While this may be true, Islamic law is contained in the Sharia, which is subordinate to the Qur'on, but is essentially unquestioned. Different sects have different interpretations and laws, so it is also easy to say, well, that's the other guys.
This is a very interesting example of the built in misogyny of Islam, The Book on the Etiquette of Marriage. The "Instruction Concerning Menstruation" is particularly odd. In fact, just do a doc search for the word menstruation.
Having read the book, I can say it is a very boring read, as so much of it is warnings and threats to the non-believers and warnings to the believers about the non-believers. After reading the book, you are left with the impression every chapter starts this way. I like to say I've only read half of the Qur'on, because half of it is just the same bit repeated ad nausea, death and everlasting suffering to the infidels and apostates.
Anyway, we are all only a few youtube videos away from the truth at the heart of Islam, stonings, whippings, and beheadings.
I think the new London Bus Ads may come in handy in this situation.
I believe in God, but I think its better not to believe if it means that there is more peace, love and understanding. Nothing against Muslims or any other religion though. To each his own.
#11 posted by FoetusNail
I could go on all day about your lack of understanding, but I will explain it quickly.
God HAS created man stronger than woman, no?? Aren't female species in 99% of the animal kingdom smaller, and require the safety of the male?
Scourging your wife is a last resort before divorce.
Those your right hand possess are slaves that you have freed and are married to.
Islam is the first and ONLY religion to abolish slavery through conversion.
stonings, whippings, and beheadings are a part of the culture on the other side of the world, just like prostitution and pornography are here.
It's funny you say all this, but people are still converting...WHY???
BECAUSE they know Islam is the truth. The truth that the created must submit to the creator.
Pretty simple, but people have let the arab cultures confuse them,
Also, I wanted to add something else. You say you have read the Quran, but apparently the parts that repeat themselves you have ignored. The reason that they are repeated is so you REMEMBER THEM!!!
Please enlighten us on what is most often repeated, is it "Kill all infidels" or is it the story of Moses and Pharaoh??? Is it rape or is it about giving to charity and helping widows and orphans??? Is it beheadings (not mentioned once) or is it the fact that if you are a good Christian, Jew, or another monotheist, then you are on the good side of the Lord.
It's easy to hate something when you do not agree with it, but have you noticed how many times the Quran agrees with the true teachings of Moses and Jesus and Abraham???
Did you skip all the verses that end with "And make sure you do good for God loves the doers of Good"???
If you have read it, then I suggest you actually read the first page again, wherein it states "Only those who have faith will understand the book, and those who do not CANNOT understand."
@Foetusnail
what about all the live sacrifice and burnt offerings in the Old Testament? The Million Cathars killed in the first crusade, including the last few hundred that were herded into pitch soaked stockades and burnt en-masse?
And don't forget that the Second Crusade was more about stemming the flow of scientific research from the Arab world than it ever was about saving Jerusalem.
Rather than focus on demonising the religion, why not ask why is it mainly poor, non Western (as in rich industrial) nations who see it as a more attractive alternative to Western culture?
Nobody wants to join a game where the odds are purposely stacked against them winning, anything is better than giving in to economic slavery, and the loan sharks of the western banking corporations.
Did you know that charging interest for loaning money first started in mediaeval Italy, and that people universally despised those charging interest for loans? Dante's Inferno in fact placed them in the same area of hell as the sodomites. Dante like Shakespeare knew his readers'passions.
Usura which is Latin for "interest", is where we originally got the word 'usury' from, coming to mean "charging excessive and unscrupulous interest".
Things haven't changed that much. The third world is essentially like those misfortunates in the first world who have too many debts and have them consolidated by a debt management company. These companies have no desire in recouping the debt, they actually make more money by leaving the debts untouched and simply taking interest impertuity, and will even offer to lend more money their 'clients'.
Firstly, I second anyone who find the book cover ironically stereotypical. I'd still give the book a try, but the tired 'Princess Jasmine' theme is indeed a bad start.
Secondly, the fact that I don't agree with a system of beliefs doesn't mean I don't understand it or wasn't exposed to it.
I have a problem with any belief that involves vilifying people who don't share their views and faith, whether it is Christianity, Islam, Scientology... And while I can understand why people still adopt such beliefs (whether for social, emotional or traditional reasons), I am extremely happy to live without religion in my personal sphere and I only ask religious people to respect that, in return for my own respect.
I'm not one to harrass anyone for their beliefs or vandalize their homes or threaten them with harm. But the minute people or faith feel entitle to claim they know the ultimate 'truth' and judge others, imposing their rules against their fellow men and women, they are the ones who are in dire need of an understanding others book.
@Rossifumi
It's funny you say all this, but people are still converting...WHY???
THE PRINCE
CHAPTER II
CONCERNING HEREDITARY PRINCIPALITIES
.....
in the antiquity and duration of his rule the memories and motives that make for change are lost, for one change always leaves the toothing for another.
http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince.txt
@ A USER: I'm sure their eternal soul has something to do with it too
@ SEKINO: Understood and agreed. I for one don't see any imposing of Islam onto people in America . A lot of people in America hate Islam, so imposing it on them would not make sense. i DO see people asking for info, and once they learn that Islam considers itself the final ultimate truth, that's when they get that feeling of "Mine is better than your's".
In truth, Islam teaches that Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were all Muslims. Not that they were replica's of today's Muslims, but they followed the Will or the Lord by worshipping HIM only and understanding that there will be a day of reckoning, and to spread this knowledge to those who are in the dark.
The big 3 religions teach basically the same thing, but in their own way. Islam says that those religions have been corrupted by man, and the final truth is the Quran. Hence why people still read it in it's ORIGINAL Arabic from 500 AD.
Now lets try and find the original Torah written in Hebrew, or the Gospel of Jesus written in his tongue, Aramaic. Right, they don't exist. But the Quran has been in the same state for as long as Christianity has been around (500 years after Jesus).
This is factual evidence, and people (Muslim people) see this as the main reason why their religion is correct. Because the foundation of Islam is based on the prior religions that have lost their true word; many times in the Quran it says, "And if you do not believe this, then ask the Jew or Christian, and they will concur."
Main difference between Islam and Judaism: Jewish scripture has changed because of the the Oral aspect of it. Rabbis have changed the words, in turn the message.
Main difference between Islam and Christianity: Jesus is not God. Jesus says himself "I Cannot do any of these things without the will of the Father"...He is a Divine prophet.
I have read all three books, and any regular human would convert to Islam if they just sat down and read all three books.
#13 ROSSIFUMI: "Islam is the first and ONLY religion to abolish slavery through conversion."
Most of the countries that abolished slavery in the 20th century were Islamic, and slavery still continues unofficially in the Islamic world and among Muslims.
#15 A USER: "what about all the live sacrifice and burnt offerings in the Old Testament?"
What about them? Where do Christians practise live sacrifice? Even if they did, how does that excuse anything Muslims do in the name of Islam? Bringing up the Bible is nothing more than a fallacious diversionary tactic.
"The Million Cathars killed in the first crusade, including the last few hundred that were herded into pitch soaked stockades and burnt en-masse?"
When people bitch about the Crusades they always neglect to mention the fact that they were originally a response against Islamic aggression. Strangely enough, Islam's history of centuries of religious warfare all over the planet is never, ever, EVER mentioned anywhere by anyone, whereas the Crusades are brought up every single time Islam is discussed. If you're going to bring up ancient history then at least do it fairly. Then again, why ARE you bringing up ancient history?
The reason why Muslims and infidels cannot "understand" each other is because they have diametrically opposed values and belief systems, like night and day. That's all there is to it. Until Muslims update their values and belief system to better reflect the 21st century, there won't be any "understanding."
@Some1
the FIRST crusade happened in the SOUTH OF FRANCE.
Use google on names you don't know, you'll like it
"Most of the countries that abolished slavery in the 20th century were Islamic, and slavery still continues unofficially in the Islamic world and among Muslims."
OKAY but ISLAM abolishes it. Your statement basically says that people are not following the rules.
I am simply stating the rules. If a slave submits to God, he can no longer be a slave. HE CAN even marry his master's daughter!!!!!!
"a fallacious diversionary tactic. "
No, it's you not accepting the similarities, and turning a blind eye to the truth.
"Islam's history of centuries of religious warfare all over the planet is never, ever, EVER mentioned anywhere by anyone"
Maybe because like in Indonesia and Taiwan, and other countries where Islam has reached, the people never got the "Aggression" they got Knowledge.
"Until Muslims update their values and belief system to better reflect the 21st century, there won't be any "understanding.""
I think you mean until Muslims ignore their core values and beliefs like Christians and Jews have done to become "THE WEST"... which my friend, is not really going to happen.
There is no "UPGRADE" in religion son! It's a matter of: are you going to stick to it as everything around you changes or are you going to be a part of the conformity of modern western society??
Islam is to submit to God, not your Ego.
@Rossifumi
nope, people are entirely mercenary and look to better their lot in life. Most mystery religions, like Christianity, Bhuddism or Islam, pander to this by saying "You're life is crap now, but if you believe in [INSERT NAME HERE], when you die you'll be rewarded."
It doesn't matter what reward is promised - your soul, land of milk and honey, reincarnation as a higher being, the point is they all offer something. Just saying believe in HE,SHE,IT, because I say so, doesn't seem to attract that many followers.
You should've followed the link I posted it has all kinds of goodness about managing huge numbers of people - you could use it to set up your own religion and reap the rewards now instead of waiting for whatever you have been promised now.
#20 A USER: what does it matter where it took place?
#21 ROSSIFUMI: or at least you claim they weren't following the rules. That's the standard excuse pseudo-moderate Muslims always give, and it's getting a little old.
"No, it's you not accepting the similarities, and turning a blind eye to the truth."
There are no similarities. While Muslim men do inflict violence upon women due to religious reasons, or reasons sanctioned by religion, the random stuff people pull from the Bible is never actually followed by anyone.
"Maybe because like in Indonesia and Taiwan, and other countries where Islam has reached, the people never got the "Aggression" they got Knowledge."
You're in denial of historical facts. Would you like me to start claiming that the Crusades never happened?
"I think you mean until Muslims ignore their core values and beliefs like Christians and Jews have done to become "THE WEST"... which my friend, is not really going to happen."
Then there will never be anything except perpetual warfare between Muslims and infidels. Thanks a lot.
LOL @ A USER
I read some, but you put a link up to a freakin book bro. And I don't want to control people.
As to your second point, yes basically ALL religion says this. And why does this not make sense to you??
When you were a kid, you did good you got something good, and bad = spanking or whatever.
When you are an adult you go to jail for doing the wrong things, and you get commended for doing the right.
So after you die, you really don't think the same process of values would follow human beings??
Also, it's not "because I say so" people usually don't find religion, it ends up finding them. So these people are doing it (following religion) because they actually want to and it gives them that peace of mind that other people don't get.
Depression is the leading symptom of people who do not believe. Believe in the CREATOR and the fact that you will go back to him after this life, and depression deletes itself from your mental cache.
Rossifumi, comparing atrocities in Christianity to atrocities in Islam isn't a step forward, regardless of the time period being discussed. No atrocity excuses another. (Or, in the parlance of our times, "two wrongs don't make a right.")
"they chose a face that could be 'merican, which as a non American annoys me a lot,"
That's like saying "they chose a face that could be human!" There is no "American face." They don't call it the melting pot for nothing.
Thanks for posting this, Cory!
The graphic on the cover has gone through many incarnations as we chose an image. Many of the Muslim women we met in Second Life choose to wear hijab, even if they do not choose to do so in the physical world. This particular avatar belongs to a woman from Doha, Qatar, who also wears traditional Muslim attire in the physical world. We perceive her as appearing thoughtful (which, in fact, she was) not "seductive." The image was taken from a snapshot that appears in the book, in context. It was taken at a virtual fatwa, held by a Muslim cleric to discuss and interpret Koranic verses for Ramadan.
If our goal was to present a "seductive" or "stereotypical" image we could have chosen from among the many images that we collected that do not appear in the report at all for that very reason. Avatars often appear "seductive" to some people because they do not have the inevitable imperfections of physical bodies and their motions are scripted.
You call me a Pseudo-Moderate Muslim that's giving excuses. Fine, whatever tickles your pickle.
But fact remains, in Islam each man is responsible for his own deeds. Men beat their wives because they have marital problems, not just because their religion allows it. The fact that God gives man the room to take care of his wife is symbolic of how we are created. Man cares for woman. Woman cares for child, and years later children take care of parents.
In each of these situations there can be violence, but that is up to the person to control his actions and deeds.
"the random stuff people pull from the Bible is never actually followed by anyone."
Thank you for admitting that people do not follow the bible. It's pretty evident.
The days of spreading Islam by the sword are over. Now Islam is spread by the keyboard. Islamic Aggression is spurred on by people taking Muslim land, and then claiming it was theirs' and then putting the Muslims out of that land through harsh conditions and violence, and then starting wars with them. THESE are the infidels that the Quran says to slay, and I completely agree with the Quran on this. Ahem...Cough...GAZA, Palestine today. I don't deny history, but I also don't deny the present.
If Mexico or Canada tried to do to us what Israel is doing to Palestine, we would have bombed the Maple out of Canada and the Tortillas out of Mexico. Yes, or no?
And finally, if you think that the only way to peace is by people dropping their value systems, then I don't want any part of that kind of peace.
The image wouldn't look 'merican if it weren't translucent. When I was in Saudi Arabia for a few months -- Riyadh, not in the desert -- I didn't see a single Arab female face. The Western flight attendants would cover their hair but not their faces, while the Arab women all wore veils. Female American military staff wore veils in public while I was there. The veils aren't sexy at all; they're designed to make sure that women don't show themselves to anyone but their spouses.
Don't get me wrong: Despite the issues within Islam that may make it incompatible with Western civilization, and though I disagree with them about many things, I sympathize with them quite a bit.
@ Rossifumi:
Aren't female species in 99% of the animal kingdom smaller, and require the safety of the male?
Just for the record, no, females are nearly always the same size or bigger than males, and in most animal species both fend for themselves. The exceptions are mostly mammals.
Me three on the seductive cover seeming very unmatched to the topic. "Seductive" was my immediate impression with those shimmering red pouty lips visible through the semi-transparent fabric.
@some1
I mentioned it for 2 reasons
1)
The First Crusade was the first recorded European genocide and it created the machinery that went on to become the inquisition, meandered it's way to the reformation and the eventually freeing of the stranglehold that the Pope had on Europe
2)It positively wasn't an Islam vs Christian thing.
"The veils aren't sexy at all; they're designed to make sure that women don't show themselves to anyone but their spouses."
They are actually designed to keep men like you and me from ogling and Harassing our sisters, wives, and mothers.
Rape is very low in these countries (but not extinct because we know man is evil)
Also she can show her face to her brothers, husband's brothers, uncles, etc.. Family, basically.
Any other Islam questions?? "I'm here all week"!!
LOL
#24 ROSSIFUMI: you clearly know nothing about the subject of depression.
#27 ROSSIFUMI: "But fact remains, in Islam each man is responsible for his own deeds. Men beat their wives because they have marital problems, not just because their religion allows it."
There you go making excuses again. It might be theoretically possible to reform Islam if its followers stopped covering their ears and going "LALALALALA." Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions, but that doesn't mean their actions aren't influenced or determined by their religion, culture or ideology.
"Thank you for admitting that people do not follow the bible. It's pretty evident."
Thank you for a silly strawman. The point was that just because it says something somewhere in the Bible doesn't mean it's a commandment. Even if it is a commandment, it doesn't mean it should be automatically followed.
"The days of spreading Islam by the sword are over. Now Islam is spread by the keyboard."
And by assault rifles and explosives, but that's irrelevant. History is what it is and you can't make it go away just because you don't like it.
"Islamic Aggression is spurred on by people taking Muslim land, and then claiming it was theirs' and then putting the Muslims out of that land through harsh conditions and violence, and then starting wars with them."
There's that denial again.
"And finally, if you think that the only way to peace is by people dropping their value systems, then I don't want any part of that kind of peace."
And this right here is the reason why Islam is still waging a never-ending war against the rest of the universe.
Rossifumi: "When you are an adult you go to jail for doing the wrong things, and you get commended for doing the right.
So after you die, you really don't think the same process of values would follow human beings??"
Well, er, no, because you would be dead.
@Rossifumi
I read some, but you put a link up to a freakin book bro. And I don't want to control people.
It's a good book. ;)
@eurekadejavu
The image was taken from a snapshot that appears in the book
I recognised the pic was from Secondlife, however it does raise the point that she chose not to wear an opaque veil and you can have ugly avatars in SL, yet she chose to look like any other decadent brunette chick in there.
Rossifumi, I'm confused. You say: They [the veils] are actually designed to keep men like you and me from ogling and Harassing our sisters, wives, and mothers.
and then
Also she can show her face to her brothers, husband's brothers, uncles, etc.. Family, basically.
If the veils are designed to keep us from ogling our close relatives, then why can she show her face to her close relatives?
Hey, just for the record, while I do identify as a Muslim from a cultural perspective (and because when people look at me or read my real name, "Muslim" is what they see me as), I am also a secular humanist and an atheist.
I think some of the criticisms of Islamic doctrine, while legitimate in substance, are selective and exaggerated, esp compared to what is in the Old and New Testaments, but in my opinion it's one outdated patriarchal authoritarian tribalistic belief system calling the other black.
I'd like to see a liberal reformation in Islam, or at least an expansion to allow real space for alternative progressive interpretations of the Quran etc., but it's kind of an academic point for me because I don't take my instructions from Islam in the first place.
Rape is very low in these countries
With all due respect, I would appreciate to have you refute with real numbers and statistics to back this statement.
According to Sharia law, a woman needs several male witnesses to testify on her behalf that she was raped and that she was not merely commiting adultery.
Bear in mind that in the US, about 75% of women are raped by men they know (acquaintances, relatives, husbands) and of these, nearly half are raped in their own homes.
Seeing that a woman's testimony has so little value beside the men's, I have big trouble believing that rape report is at all accurate in countries that adopt Sharia law.
Indeed, rape rates seem pretty low where many cases are treated as adultery or legitimate spousal sexual relations by the law in place.
What advantage does a rape victim hold to expose herself to imminent humiliation, repudiation from her family and community (or worse) by reporting the crime? If she doesn't have male witnesses (aside from the rapists themselves, ironically), it is a lost cause and a very dangerous move.
I agree that western society has plenty of problems, but please let's stick with verifiable facts that can be compared apple to apple. Otherwise, the conversation is totally useless.
Ackk, where to start.
@jdfreivald : First off. Brothers and family members are really different from random dudes on the street. You don't have sister's huh??
@ANONOMOUS: Point taken. Not animals, Mammals.
@ SOME1:
REFORM ISLAM??> how do you reform something that has been fine and unchanged for 1500 years??? People stray from the truth, unlike people the truth remains the same. Reform people my friend.
Dude, you really think my retorts are denials??? So Israel has not taken over land belonged to Muslims just 50 years ago???? Do I have to put up 300+ links proving your wrong??
Um, Islam has no war with the rest of the universe. As a matter of fact, if you look up the definition of Islam, you will figure out all living things are Muslim, in that all living things have submitted to their Creator, in that they make no egotistical choices, and simply survive by what the Creator has given them (except of course Humans).
Islam is not spread by rifles dude, it is DEFENDED by rifles, and explosives (just like America defends with ridiculous aggression). Glass houses.
And last but not least, WHO in their right mind would denounce their core values and ethics because it makes the opposition happy?
Are you retarded?
@GILBERT: "the same process of values would not follow human beings because Well because you would be dead. "
So the process of values innately instilled in every human have been instilled by WHOM?? Right, the same Creator that brought you forth from your mother's womb. The same creator you will meet after death. The same Creator people deny, and the same Creator people fight for.
You have a piece of machinery, you consult the directions of use right?
So this machinery in our brain, who do you consult for this? Not the creator then WHO???
Islam teaches undeniable truth.
@sodium111: You are not Muslim dude, you should actually change your name. If you're an Atheist and your name means submitter to God...You are a walking contradiction.
Islam is going to remain distinctly "other" for the west. Greater understanding, while not a bad thing, isn't really going to lead to much improvement in relations. Islam is in a place that the western Judaeo-Christian world left about 500 years ago. The west has liberalized their religions and reduced its appearance in society to relatively benign show.
Even the Americans, who are reportedly religious nuts, are fighting pretty dull battles with their religion. In the US, the battle is over stuff like whether homosexuals should be allowed to marry, not the finer points of theocratic rule. When the battles left to fight are to preserve the last few threads of old marriage rules, it shows that religion has been pretty thoroughly sidelined from having a strong influence on the lives of every day people.
The Islamic world is fighting a much more extreme battle with itself. Multiple Islamic nations are fighting over basic rights for women that the west achieved a few hundred years ago, never mind the more recent and expansive rights that women achieved in the past 100 years or so.
Understanding in this case is just going to have your average westerner saying, "that is fucked up dude, my girlfriend/wife would beat me if I treated her like that". Sure, "that is their religion", but the fact that it is steeped in religion doesn't suddenly make such illiberal tendencies ok in the eyes of the west.
Nothing is going to improve the head shaking disgust that the west has with much of the Islamic world until the Islamic world is liberalized. The west is going to look at the Islamic world and see barbarians that look like they stepped out of a time warp from 500 years ago. Frankly, disgust is the right response to much of the Islamic world.
The best education can do is educate western folk to understand that there are people who are Muslims who are liberal in their views and that you should be judging on an individual basis so as not to sweep up the innocent in your commendations.
The only thing productive the west can do is pump rock and roll music and bad movies to the Islamic world and offer support for liberalizing elements.
"According to Sharia law, a woman needs several male witnesses to testify on her behalf that she was raped and that she was not merely commiting adultery."
Look, the point is that the Woman, because of her Veil keeps herself our of harm's way.
Two twins turn the corner. One of them is veiled, the other a mini skirt. Which do you look at? If you were with your crazy friends, which one do you holla at?
RIGHT.
To correct your statement of females testifying. It is said that One male testimony is equal to two females. The reasons for this we can try to figure out ourselves (read: PMS. child rearing, hormones etc) but the final answer is with God for this Law, and a lot of women agree because they know.
I agree the reports may not be all there, but I am talking about lifestyle. Look at our college hedonism compared to the uniformed and gender separated education in Arab countries. It simply brings the opportunity for rape much lower.
Why don't you go join the Taliban in Afhganistan, or the dictators in Iran. They are enforcing Islam through repression, torture, beatings, prison to dissenters, more torture, terrorism (killing and kidnapping family members to bring villages into line). There is some sort of wave of medieval Islamic terrorist-fueled fascism spreading around the world; bombings in Indonesia, massacres by Pakistanis in Mumbai, "rebels" in the Phillipines, Taliban in Afghanistan (remember the Buddhas?).
Remember the Salman Rushdie incident? That is Muslim terrorism, state sponsored by Iran, and approved of by apparently a large portion of the Muslim population. Or perhaps all the moderate Muslims were too scared of the Muslim terrorists to say anything. That is what I believe.
Make no mistake, there is a dangerous strain of Islamic fascism making the rounds, and it is just a big a danger to freedom and civilization as the Nazi fascist alliance in WW II.
The moderate Muslims seem powerless to speak out, I think they are well and truly terrorized by their extremists among them.
"The Islamic world is fighting a much more extreme battle with itself. Multiple Islamic nations are fighting over basic rights for women that the west achieved a few hundred years ago, never mind the more recent and expansive rights that women achieved in the past 100 years or so."
Islam in 500 AD allowed women to own land, vote, remarry, run businesses, and had the respect of men.
The countries you speak of are not following true Islam if these rights are not already covered.
And to say that disgust is the right response to the Muslim world is insane. Which is more disgusting: Porno, alcoholism, drugs, blasphemy, OR praying, charity, and modesty??
The Muslim world is shaking their heads in disgust at the West just as well. If you think your shitty rock and roll and b-movies will "liberalize" the muslim world, then you haven't see the fact that this stuff is constantly being pumped into these countries via Satellite, but people remain true to their faith.
Also, have you see Dubai? Abu Dhabi, Qatar..???? These Muslim cities are miles ahead of America, in technology, design, resources, and faith.... so who's stuck in the past? America can't even touch the innovations in Dubai.
All women are still trapped in a male dominant society, but at least the Muslim society respects them enough to ban their sale at Go-Go bars and Porn shops like fucking meat.
Maybe you should look around America, and see who are the ones that are liberated, and who are the ones trapped.
That is Muslim terrorism, state sponsored by Iran, and approved of by apparently a large portion of the Muslim population.
How do you differentiate that from US state-sponsored terrorism which has demolished Iraq?
@ HAPPY KITTY BUNNY:
Okay, so you want me to join the Taliban because I am defending Islam.
That pretty stupid.
FYI Muslims can't stand the extreme actions of the Taliban, and just like the KKK the skinheads, the gangs in America, there will always be extremists. Why the hell haven't you controlled all the redneck racism and cross burning going on in the mid-west???
The rebels and little extremist clubs have been produced by similar extremists, and you blame ALL of Islam on these groups.
the Mumbai attacks were by a handful of assholes, not Muslims, you think I am one of them or even want to be??? as I sit here and try and explain why things are the way they are... WTF I figured the people that come on this site are a bit smarter than that.
And then you categorize us. Moderate? Conservative? no, there is just Islam. Because I disagreed with what the Taliban was doing in Afghanistan BEFORE 9/11. You didn't know shit about Afghanistan before 9/11. The Taliban was looked down upon by all of Afghanistan's neighboring countries, and America gave them money and weapons.
In this webpage I have spoken out against Extremists, and racists. Against naivety and Ego. I defend islam with the info in my head and the faith in my heart. I mean no ill will towards any people or religions. I believe in the God of Abraham, and I respect women, and I am here to tell you if you simply learn the truth about Islam, you will submit.
ONE final thing before I get out of here. Here this: has any Muslim author ever written a book or drawn a piece of art that disrespected the other two main religious Prophets?
Muslims love and respect Moses and Jesus. They would never even think of disrespecting ANY of the prophets... Noah, Lot, Abraham etc. ANY of them. Even though these are the prophets of the people that represent the enemies of Islam, Muslims think of it as a grave sin to disrespect them.
But then you see Dutch artists with the bomb on the head drawing, and the Salmon Rushdie bullshit book etc, and Muslims are asked to act like everything is okay.
WTF is that?
Rossifumi, why do you assume I have any higher regard for Christianity than I do for Islam? Let me state for the record all three of the desert cults are hopelessly archaic and have no purpose but their own preservation.
Why are people converting to Islam? I don't know, makes no sense to me at all. My guess would be because people are desperate, ignorant, and naive. All three of the bastard sons of the desert should be driven from history. All three cults are hypocritical, murderous, and dangerous.
I suggest you read my history, before making further replies directed to me. The more you comment the more you prove my point. You could start by searching my profile for the word god.
P.S. Threats of hell or after-life have no meaning. I'm more of a poor example of a Taoist, who at times pretends to practice Zen Buddhism.
@ Rossifuni 44
Islam in 500 AD allowed women to own land, vote, remarry, run businesses, and had the respect of men.
You can't have it both ways. Either we're looking at the Middle Ages, when the Islamic world was culturally much more sophisticated than the west but did spread its faith through conquest, or we're looking at the present, where many Islamic countries have fallen behind in a lot of respects.
Two twins turn the corner. One of them is veiled, the other a mini skirt. Which do you look at? If you were with your crazy friends, which one do you holla at?
Linking this to crimes, though, is very close to blaming the victims. Veiling women may help but it's much more important to create a culture that's safe enough people can dress how the wany, instead of needing that kind of protection.
http://www.irshadmanji.com/
@FoetusNail:
First of all this is the first time my comments have been directed to you.
Dude be what the hell ever you want to be, and I could care less about the history and Bio of someone that calls the 3 Majors "Bastard sons of the Desert."
To me, your lack of understanding of faith is funny because you are trying to sound like you know it all, yet your words let me know you know very little. You are a poor example alright, and I'm not trying to be mean, but it's easy with people that deny the mystery of their own creation.
If you cannot reflect on your own mental processes, then you are too naive to understand God, Heaven, or Hell.
Ahem
Some selections from The Wit and Wisdom of Rossifumi:
♥ 12/21/2007 - The Quran states that God has created Woman and Man equal, but then He goes on to state the OBVIOUS that man is PHYSICALLY superior.
♥ 1/3/2008 - Wait if girls can show their hoo-haa's we should be able to show our whats-its. This is not fair, a guy can't even kick it to a horny girl at the park...
♥ 2/11/2008 - Ok, it's not the guys' fault. Most hot chicks are really, really stupid. This is how normal guys have to look to get hot chicks. Apparently you guys haven't banged any hot chicks. Advance apologies to the 3% of the female population that are Sexy and Smart.
Rossifumi,
Your devotion to protecting the honor of women is legendary. Well not so much legendary as mythical. I've also noticed that your earliest posts consistently refer to Muslims as 'they' and only morphs to 'we' after a few months. What's up with that bro? It almost looks like you've been refining your act.
What is this, an attempt contrast witty posts with serious ones?
haha
Most of those comments have been filled with sarcasm and were on funny posts, and i AM a funny guy. This is my break website at work, so forgive me if I sounded a bit retarded, but I was probably wearing a smile on my face whilst writing them.
As far as they and We, I am speaking as an American when I write on this site. But when we are speaking about Muslims or Islam, I am speaking as a Muslim.
ps. Those posts made me laugh out loud, thanks I needed that.
are you speaking for islam?
SODIUM11:
The difference between the two is that the former is regularly put into practise whereas the latter is not. Almost nobody who makes these comparisons has even the slightest clue about theology anyway.
ROSSIFUMI:
You think Islamic societies are "fine?" Even Muslim immigrant communities in the West are totally hosed up. It was once held as truth that the Sun revolves around the Earth, but it was later learned that it's the other way around. Oops. Now you're trying to sidetrack the discussion. You're being in denial by claiming that Muslims are never at war unless someone attacked them first (and you do it again later on this post). Yes it does. Muslims are in conflict with infidels almost everywhere, and it has been that way since the inception of Islam. Islam commands its followers to wage perpetual warfare against infidels to convert, subjugate or kill them. If you're going to go "LALALALALALA" again, tell it to someone else because I don't care. Nobody, but the only way the war will end is if Muslims join the 21st century like most other people. The closest thing we have to undeniable truth is science. Islam, or any other religion, isn't anywhere close. Rapists don't care if a woman is veiled, and a culture where sexuality is suppressed is a lot more likely to produce rapists than a sexually liberal culture. Looking at someone is completely harmless, and one of the reasons why women wear miniskirts is because they want men to look at them. If they don't want that, they can wear something more conservative. In Islamic societies women are rarely able to make that choice. It's disgusting how often seemingly moderate Muslims try to justify Islamic dress code by claiming that it's better for women. Do you perhaps have trouble controlling your urges if you see a woman in a miniskirt? That's a strawman and you know it. Nobody said people are disgusted by praying or charity. It is beyond ridiculous that you're equating expensive skyscrapers (designed and built by foreigners with oil money) with an advanced society. Muslims respect women by restricting their freedoms? Yeah man, that totally makes sense. You're also conviniently ignoring all the other restrictions Muslims place on women, which are most certainly not limited to banning them from working in go-go bars. I get the feeling that you don't even understand what liberty means. This is what I mean when I say that Muslims and infidels have diametrically opposed values. When even something as basic as liberty is not understood by Muslims, it's impossible for them to get along with infidels.
ROSSIFUMI:
It has been controlled. The KKK has been effectively destroyed and has no support among Americans. You are part of the extremists. No, you're not out there setting up roadside bombs (as far as I know anyway), but you assist those who do by engaging in obfuscation, denial and misdirection about Islam and Muslims. You are part of the problem and actively resist the solution. You also support the oppression of women which is enough to make you an extremist.
Yt mr vdnc f th fct tht Mslms jst cn't c-xst wth nfdls. Frdm f xprssn s n ssntl cmpnnt f mdrn cvlztn, bt f crs y cn't ndrstnd tht. Y'd rthr jst kll nyn wh y dsgr wth r r ffndd by.
Dear commenters,
Please tone down the rhetoric a little.
Actually this is the third time you have directed a comment to me, your first and second comments @14 & 15 were replies to my first comment.
Why do you assume I hate, I mean maybe I do, but I've not said that here and you refuse to learn anything about me. For that matter why are you directing the discussion at me instead of discussing your religion?
Why do you assume I don't do good? Can only Muslims do good?
Again, why do you assume I deny the mystery of my own creation? You make a lot of assumptions, but wish to remain ignorant of my history, which is readily available. Read my profile or stop making ignorant (not calling you stupid or dumb) assumptions.
I did read your book, that is why in my first comment I said, "Muslims, like Christians, also fend off criticism, by positing non-believers can not understand the Qur'on, only true believers can understand." That is such convenient rubbish. Anyone can understand anything they take the time to read. The problem is I understand your god all too well.
Since you refuse to read my history let me quote myself, though I warn you, this is what you are warned against reading. Now ask your self, are you feeling lucky?
As we say:
Go in peace.
Go making peace.
Live mightily.
Love gently.
And bow to the mystery.
Well, so much for Understanding Islam Through The BB World.
Not a rag; highly enjoyable.
"arrrggh"?
any more voices that wish to speak about and, maybe for, Islam? I can't help but think Rossifumi could have done better.
You are joking, right? You realize that Muhammad didn't claim to have any divine revelations until 610 AD and that Mecca was not conquered until 630... right?
Well, being a rather cheerful consumer of porn, alcohol, drugs, and blasphemy, I would have to say that treating women like a separate species is more disgusting. Liberalism is puts a high value on liberty and freedom of choice. It isn't like Muslims are the first to harbor ideas of "modesty" in women as some sort of method of protecting them. Christians tried it in the west ages ago. Like all value choices there are trade offs, but Western experience shows that the best defense women have against cruel treatment is equality in the eyes of the law and society.
Qatar and the UAE are both doing very well these days. While not democratic, their leaders have had the foresight to take their simply massive oil profits and reinvest it in their nation. I would hardly call them a model for the world. Most nations don't sit atop trillions of dollars worth of oil they can sell off.
Further, it isn't like they spun magic out of whole cloth and good Islamic virtue. A lot of people from around the world have gotten very wealthy being contracted out to put together Qatar and UAE.
You might want to take another look around. Certainly you can see sexism in all parts of the world, but the degree of it varies dramatically. Being a woman in Sweden is night and day different from being a woman in Saudi Arabia. Liberalism rejects the notion that equality is impossible and thus not worth striving for.
My point is this, leaving value judgments aside, the Western civilization is liberal and getting more liberal with time. Right or wrong, the West isn't going to reverse course, and it isn't revert to the way it was 500 years ago. It will strive to become more liberal, and as it does find much of what the Islamic world's values sad archaic relics from their past. Education, while not a bad thing, isn't going to change that view.
#61 TAKUAN: it's really an indefensible position, so you can't expect anyone to do well. I've talked to a lot of Muslims and their responses are consistently awful.
@SOME1: Ok son, lets break it down.
Apparently you are right, it is impossible for you to see where I am coming from. I am an extremist, and sexist muslim hell-bent on bringing down the World until all accept Islam. And you are this straight thinking, broad minded professor from YALE huh?
If my words make you uneasy, then realize that I speak the truth. You, if you are a man, know what I say about promiscuously dressed woman attracting the wrong attention is 100% spot on.
You know Those Oil-suppored Arab countries are ahead of us in Lowered crime rates, violence, poverty, and countless other elements of society, yet you are too proud to admit it.
You know that the Quran has scientific facts in it hundreds of years before European Renaissance.
You know that the KKK still exists and that they were hanging black men in the Midwest just a few months ago.
You know that Muslim women would leave Islam if they thought they were being treated unfairly, but they DON'T, because they love the security aND RESPECT.
You talk about Liberty, dude, you live in a country that has enslaved all of it's citizens with debt and interest, and is slowly enslaving the rest of the world with economic turmoil, lets look at Africa, and Central America AS an example of the Liberty America has spread.
You call me an extremist, and claim that I actively resist the solution, what the hell is the solution. To give up Islam??? NO, its to make you understand, Islam is peace and truth.
And then you say I am an oppressor to women because I support what Islam says about them.
Dude, I have three sisters that have yet to be oppressed. I oppose the subjugation of women to the male gaze; you know when you turn on the TV and it slowly pans down a woman's body??/ you think that's freedom for our sisters and mothers?
YOU my bud have been brainwashed. When you deny the similarities of the rules of conduct among true jews/christian/muslims and trade them in for MTV's Springbreak girls gone wild...you have lost.
@ some1 - Pish tosh. Science has to be falsifiable by contradictory evidence for it to be science. It's certainly not undeniable truth, or close to it. It's a set of theories for the explanation of physical phenomenon based on replicable experiments or mathematical models. Nothing more.
All religions claim they have undeniable truths. Islam is no different than any other in that respect.
it's really an indefensible position, so you can't expect anyone to do well. I've talked to a lot of Muslims and their responses are consistently awful."
IM sure without faith Islam won't make sense, so try not to hurt your brain here.
is it possible for a poly-cultural society to contain Islam? Workably for all I mean? Is co-existence possible or is conflict inevitable?
Rossifumi,
You do realize that people can read, don't you? Your accusations are completely inconsistent with your previous statements that I have highlighted in my comment. I'm going to give you a day off to get your story straight. When you come back, please choose whether you're a pious Muslim or a slack-jawed, red-eyed, drooling party animal.
Rossifumi:
"you see Dutch artists with the bomb on the head drawing, and the Salmon Rushdie bullshit book etc, and Muslims are asked to act like everything is okay."
Well, ummm, yeah, it IS okay.
When some skinhead publishes a cartoon of Moses as a hook-nosed ape ravishing Aryan maidens, that's okay too.
And when someone creates an "art object" comprising a crucifix in a beaker of urine... guess what, buckaroo! that's okay, just the same.
We can insult and ridicule the divinities and quasi-divinities all we like. It's when you incite or commit violence against living humans on the basis of religion that the line is crossed.
That's -my- value system, I don't compromise on it, and I insist on it being the value system of my country.
What is more, I tend to trust other nations who share that value system, and not to trust those who don't. Which accounts for the crossed American and Danish flags I wear as a lapel pin.
Ross, for a spiritual person you are one condescending, rude, and insulting commenter. I mean do you seriously expect to win converts by saying, "Ok son, let's break it down."? Do you honestly think acting the way you are acting is going to change anyone's opinion of Islam?
Not that you will ever believe it, but if I was a Muslim, you would be an embarrassment. Since I'm not, you only serve to prove my point. Thanks o_O
And when in doubt fall back to:
ROSSIFUMI:
It's the woman's choice, and if she dressed promiscuously in an Islamic society her chances of getting raped would increase exponentially. In the West I don't think it even makes that much of a difference. I'm not in the habit of admitting things that are not true or not what they seem. I've heard these claims many times. They're always based on after-the-fact interpretation or ignorance. For example, some Muslim listed various facts that were in the Quran supposedly before anyone had learned them, but a quick trip to Wikipedia quickly showed that they were known centuries before Mohammed was born, often in different parts of the world (like Greece and China). Never heard of that, and I didn't say the KKK doesn't exist anymore, I said it has been effectively destroyed. You're exaggerating its influence and power in an effort to establish an illusionary equivalence between extremism in the US and the Islamic world. Islam offers no security or respect for women, and they can't leave it because they will be killed. Even if they won't, they still run into all sorts of interesting problems if they, say, convert to Christianity (while their family is trying to kill them, most likely). I don't live in the US, and it's still pretty obvious that you don't understand the concept of liberty. The solution is a reform of Islam. Trying to spread Islam will simply result in conflict (which you will lose). Obviously, since Islam oppresses women. Yes. But again, you don't understand what freedom is. This is called a false dilemma. And not to brag or anything, but I do have over 40 gigabytes of porn.
JJASPER:
Read my post again. I said it's the closest thing we have to undeniable truth.
TAKUAN:
I cannot think of a country where a significant amount of Muslims co-exists peacefully with infidels. I think there might be a few, but basically conflict is inevitable. Especially in the Western world.
Some1, thanks for a concise coherent post, I could never do that.
@ Rossifumi: I'm not picking up on a lot, or any, women respondents to your contributions, so I just thought I'd let you know that your statements on women and male-female relations are so horrifying as to make me almost physically ill.
I'm not going to convince you to reconsider your stances on these issues, but I will say that as a man, you have no legitimacy when it comes to speaking for how women feel, and you should stop.
I know it's foolish to try to correct or reason with someone who is obviously as rigid and unavailable to new perspectives as you have shown yourself to be, but I think maybe it will simply make me feel better to tell you how insulting to women your statements have been, how regressive, how arrogant and ignorant. That will have to be enough.
Your religious myopia and your incapacity to thoughtfully consider other viewpoints protects you from acknowledging what is a very ironic truth (if you actually believe you respect women): you are deeply misogynistic and a small but poisonous molecule in the collective atmosphere of a world where women walk around in a low-level shroud of fear because of the cumulative effect of people like you. I know you think it's because of the mini skirts, but your ever-so-subtle and complex analysis fails you.
Hey Cory, I'm sure your friends have done a very good job on the "Understanding Islam" report.
And the likes of "Rossifumi" notwithstanding, I'm sure the report will be received respectfully when it's released in New York City.
But I would like to relay a question to Rita and Josh. Will there be a forthcoming "Understanding Christianity" report to be released in Riyadh?
All religions (including Islam) are primitive superstitious fantasy. Muslims should not be afforded any more respect or understanding than the crazy Christian fundamentalists who elected Bush for two terms.
pssst guys Rossifumi has been gagged by the moderator.
"gagged"? I think not:"
#68 posted by Antinous , January 6, 2009 3:48 PM
Rossifumi,
You do realize that people can read, don't you? Your accusations are completely inconsistent with your previous statements that I have highlighted in my comment. I'm going to give you a day off to get your story straight. When you come back, please choose whether you're a pious Muslim or a slack-jawed, red-eyed, drooling party animal.
being given a day off suggest a 24 hour ban to me
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jan/11/salman-rushdie-satanic-verses
Well, that was timely.
Hah!
Looks like I missed this whole Rossifumi/Some1 spat! (yes, others too.)
It wasn't one of the best.. not much new material on either side.
D+ Must try harder.
And Ross, they were Danes, not Dutch.