UK government sneaking in mandatory ID cards
Glyn sez, "The UK Government planning to sneak in a police power to make anyone who has ever entered the country, at any time, prove who they are. This would effectively cover any British citizen who has ever left the UK, even for a holiday, because they will have "entered" the UK on their return. It will mean that for the first time in more than half a century that the police will be able to demand your papers."
ID cards are not voluntary (Thanks, Glyn!)
(Image: ID Card, a Creative Commons Attribution NonCommercial ShareAlike image from Gareth Harper's Flickr stream)
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Like I said: the British government needs to just declare it an arrestable to be in Britain or having been in Britain at any time.
They should also put a tax on foreigners living abroad.
It's a valid concern, maybe, but an awful opinion piece.... Who's opinion? There's no byline.
You should link to an article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3543266/Police-and-immigration-given-powers-to-demand-to-see-identification.html
...which is also breathless and speculative, but that's typical for British press.
Many country in the world, mine included, has had compulsory ID cards for ages. I cannot really understand you concerns, as my viewpoint is too far away.
In my opinion, the biggest problem with compulsory IDs is the amount of time police will spend checking them after they are introduced. If I remember the figures correctly, Italian police does tens of millions identity checks every year; let's assume 5 minutes each it quickly sums up to hundreds of years.
Curious how many brits seem to get up in arms over privacy issues surrounding a national ID system. Here in Spain as in other European countries, a national ID is the norm and allows one to prove their identity in purchases, bank transactions, and is a single identifier for all government transactions at all levels. To me (and I would venture most European citizens), this is a non-issue, if anything, it's a convenience that we assume. What are we hiding from?
Are these comments above for real?
Still think it's better to live in the UK than Canada, Cory?
I liked the opinion piece better. It didn't repeat itself constantly. The root article said the same things in combined paragraphs, then in detached sentences, then in paragraph again. I've seen grade 9 essays that were better written.
That said, it's starting to look like I won't be going to the UK any time soon. If I want a real pub I'll just go to Ireland.
lwvlwv, Paulatz and others:
The issue is not that the UK government are introducing ID cards. The principle of that is not particularly problematic. I wouldn't mind carrying one if it were secure, useful, cheap and non-compulsory.
The problems are that:
* There are virtually no restrictions on who in the government can access the data. Even the Post Office, not even technically a government agency, will be able to get straight into anyone's *entire* record. The ID cards database violates the principle of government that information should be used only for the purpose for which it was collected. Criminal investigations are one thing, but the way the database is (not) designed makes fishing expeditions, blackmail, public disclosure and harassment by civil servants very easy indeed.
* The UK government under Labour has passed a huge volume of flawed, draconian and illiberal legislation relating to 'anti-terrorism' and immigration in the past ten years, so we are not inclined to trust anything they saw about ID cards. See the Terrorism Act 2000, RIPA, control orders, etc.
* The UK government has lied, deceived and backtracked at every stage of the introduction of these cards, further increasing our fears about what this may mean in future.
* The UK government has a truly disgraceful history with data security and IT projects. This scheme makes it more likely, not less, that private data will be stolen or lost.
* Cost over-runs by huge factors have already occurred with this scheme. We could do with spending £9bn or so on something useful, like more police, rather than something that doesn't actually enhance security.
* There is no public benefit to having a card (apart from not being put in jail for refusing to have/show one). If we were getting in to the Schengen EU border-free zone, that would at least be something. But at present, having an ID card doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't do otherwise.
* Existing immmigration powers are already being abused. Google Hitcham Yezza. So I am cynical about a power as broad as not being abused.
* In the past ten years Labour has passed laws containing a completely impractical volume of new offences. Law societies, the police and others have already complained about this fact. Creating more stupid laws with ridiculous offences doesn't help this situation.
G
to the commenters above. I believe the bigger issue here is not that there is a national id card, but that it is required to be carried at all times and presented to the police upon request (please feel free to correct me if i am wrong). It is one thing to demand to see a driver's license, for example, from someone who was speeding. It is another thing entirely to demand to see a driver's license from someone who wasn't doing anything wrong, perhaps not even driving. People shouldnt have to prove who they are solely for existing.
I can't speak for the UK, but they are trying this in the US and the issue here seems to be the right to privacy. If you are forced to carry ID, the police can demand that ID at any time for any reason. Also, it begins to become a standard practice with other exchanges as has the supposedly private social security number. Lastly, there is fear that centralization of identity information could make it easier to steal someones identity, but there are good arguments on both sides of that one.
I think the issue really becomes one of potential abuse. Considering that our police bust into people's homes and shoot their dogs, regardless of any actual evidence of wrongdoing, fear of the police could be seen as justified.
As far as the security benefits, I think it is a red herring. The bad guys, whomever they might be at the time, have always found ways around governmental attempts to identify people, whether forged passports, driver's licences, or birth certificates. Nevermind that all it takes to cause a massacre is a handful of people with easily fabricated or acquired weapons and a lot of determination.
"Papiern, bitte."
Activists need a different strategy. This photo looks like the issue is for university student busy-bodies. JENNIFERFOLLY above has a better strategy. Photos of everyday folks shown having to present their papers in situations where they used to be anonymous/free would be more effective, I think.
In France, the police can stop you and require you to show ID (for some reason non-whites spend a lot more time showing their ID to the cops than whites). The best comment on this that I saw was a piece of graffiti with a caricature of a policeman over the words "Liberte, Egalite, Vos Papiers" ("Liberty, Equality, Your Papers").
@Italians:
It's not so much the ID card itself (although I admit that the idea of having to hand one over whenever someone asks does make my blood boil):
It's the sodding great database that is keyed by the card. I think I'm right in saying that the Italian card is much less "advanced" in that respect.
Why are ID cards so feared by the free world? We are already subject to every conceivable humiliation and violation of privacy under the current system. It would seem that at least with a solid ID you could avoid identity theft at the street level a bit easier and discourage illegal immigration. As for the Big Brother phenomena, it's already happening, cards or no cards.
What @shadowfirebird said. The ID card will be linked to a huge centralised database containing a wealth of personal information on each user. Given the British government's appalling track record at protecting sensitive personal information (scarcely a week goes by without another CD/laptop full of millions of personal records going missing), such a database would be a privacy Chernobyl waiting to happen.
Was it Cory or Bruce Schneier who pointed out that personal data should be treated analogously to nuclear waste?
@ #13 Piper, Never read any Dylan Thomas, have ya?
"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light"
The point being, no one intelligent will argue that we aren't already being humiliated by these thugs, that is the "good night",ie: what may be inevitable, it's that it is just plain WRONG. We must rage against that because it is WRONG. Don't give in to something just because you accept it to be ineveitable.
And *I* have to show my "foreigner card" to not only any police that asks, but any government employee, period, or I can be arrested JUST FOR BEING. That is in Japan. I get that I have to be registered as someone who isn't a citizen (well, even that is non-sensical), but the fact that I have to even PROVE who I am, dispite the fact you could look at me and reasonably deduce I am not a Japanese citizen, PISSES ME OFF. I can be arrested for not proving with a little card that says, literally as part of it, "foreigner licence", as if it's somehow an earned priviledge to be one here.
You figure that one out. Papers, please, means a lot to anyone with a memory and a mind.
another case of adding more haystack in an effort to find the odd needle or two. not to mention another layer of contempt for the nation's own citizens.
@#4: what are we hiding from, eh? you're right, there is no hiding from fascism. you gotta stamp that shit out.
I'm sure the petition's going to be ignored anyway, but for the nth time:
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoBiometrics/
Which is a petition against the collection of biometrics whilst citizens are using essential services.
Italian police does tens of millions identity checks every year
Yeah, and Italy has the lowest crime rate in.....oh, never mind.
Is a national ID card any different from a passport? Already in the US, new passports contain the RFID chip...
Snax: The important difference is that the ID card will be used within our own borders and can be demanded even when you're not trying to go into/out of foreign territory.
natural freedom: to be able to walk down the street in your own country and not have to prove anything to anybody - police and soldiers included. The very idea of public space. Our space. Everybody's space.
I grew up that way.
it seems nazi germany was way ahead of the rest of the world; don't worry UK you'll get there eventually
Hahahaha!
No honestly, that's a riot.
How on earth could a large centralised database containing more personal information than pretty much any other database in the UK, that also happens to be accessible by pretty much every (incompetent) Government department and many other organisations ever make identity theft more difficult?
--
Mr X = Professional Identity Theif
Mr Q = Disgruntled Postal Worker.
Mr X - "Hi I'd like to purchase 500 identities"
Mr Q - "Ok, let me just bring up my database, any preferences on age etc?"
Mr X - "Yes I would only like people born between 1973 and 1979"
Mr Q - "Ok.. can do, that'll be $5,000"
Now 500 peoples names, date of birth, nationality, address, criminal history, visa status, etc, etc, etc are in the hands of Mr X who then goes on to sell them to whoever the fuck he pleases.
Why does a Postal Worker need access to this information? Surely all they need for 99% of their job is the address and name on the envelope. Sure if you've got a mail forwarding thing happening there should be a temporary record held to make sure the mail gets forwarded correctly but even this should expire and BE DELETED once it's useful application has run dry.
well, go with the flow then. From right now, at the very beginning, make multiple IDs. This is the time before they plug the holes. Having several identities is the next best thing to not having any. What you really, really want to avoid is having just one. Then, they HAVE you. Very seriously now, if the battle is lost and compulsory ID is being forced on you, create a few more. Lie,cheat and steal if you have to to get them, it will be much harder later.
I do not understand England. Orwell's works were a warning, not instruction manuals!