Palin's "Spiritual Warfare" faith shared by Katherine Harris, other pols
Two articles about Sarah Palin, religion, and the internet; both interesting reads. First, a New York Times piece I'd been meaning to blog from a couple of weeks ago, YouTube Videos Draw Attention to Palin’s Faith, which references those YouTube videos with the Kenyan anti-witchcraft-preacher, blogged previously on Boing Boing. Snip from NYT piece:
Ms. Palin has had long associations with religious leaders who practice a particularly assertive and urgent brand of Pentecostalism known as “spiritual warfare.” Its adherents believe that demonic forces can colonize specific geographic areas and individuals, and that “spiritual warriors” must “battle” them to assert God’s control, using prayer and evangelism. The movement’s fixation on demons, its aggressiveness and its leaders’ claims to exalted spiritual authority have troubled even some Pentecostal Christians.Second, an extensive Huffington Post item by Bruce Wilson with more background on other political figures involved in C. Peter Wagner's Spiritual Warfare movement, including Florida congresswoman Katherine Harris. Wagner is the guy grinning in the image above. Snip from HuffPo piece:
[Harris] became notorious for her role in the U.S. 2000 presidential election when Harris, then Florida's Secretary of State, ordered the Florida election vote recount shut down amidst numerous charges of election fraud and irregularity and with Al Gore trailing George W. Bush by only several hundred votes in the contest for Florida's electoral votes which ultimately went to George W. Bush and so determined the outcome of the 2000 presidential election.
A recording of an October 3, 2006 conference call [link to YouTube video with 3:26 segment from call] between Katherine Harris, then Florida U.S. Congressional Representative, and Florida evangelist Ken Malone [transcript of call], reported on in a November 4th, 2006 Tampa Tribune story because of remarks Harris made during the call which some took as anti-Jewish, indicates that Katherine Harris was then active in the same national Spiritual Warfare network which Sarah Palin has been associated with and may still be a member of.
Mounting evidence suggests John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin is deeply involved with a global religious movement bent on imposing theocracies around the world and whose top leader, C. Peter Wagner, has decreed to his followers it is God's will that a forcible, massive transfer of wealth, from the 'godless' to members of his movement, take place.
A recently released 36 page report (online / PDF / highlights) from an independent research team specializing Wagner's movement includes details on what appear to be virulently anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish statements from, and activities carried out by, top leaders of C. Peter Wagner's New Apostolic Reformation.
Sarah Palin joined the Wasilla prayer group of C. Peter Wagner apostle Mary Glazier in 1989, Glazier told Wagner and his top New Apostolic Reformation leaders on July 13, 2008
Wilson's HuffPo piece includes embedded videos, including the one above featuring Glazier. Part of what I found interesting about Glazier was the appropriation of bits and pieces of Native American ritual (specifically Lakhota). For instance: the "HO!" she says at the beginning of her sermon, and imagery throughout her ministry website. That, combined with language encouraging politicians who follow this sect to use Pentecostalism to alter the structure of American goverment -- "Local leaders can transform a region, a state, or a nation," the website intro reads. All that and gratuitous drop shadow with scifi fonts!
Also, here's your quote of the day, 4:40-5:31 into Glazier's video about Palin's candidacy as a warfare directive from Jesus -- a discussion of God's bulging, wet, exploding membrane. "I see a membrane bulging over this state..." Such language is new to me in the context of religion.
A note to BB commenters: I know things get heated around election season, but please note that this blog post does not amount to a suggestion that people should be prohibited from practicing any faith they wish in America.
Katherine Harris Was in Sarah Palin's Spiritual Warfare Network (Huffington Post, thanks Ned Sublette)
the latest
latest episodes
What I don't like about this brand of religion is the notion that we need to return to the 15th century, in order to protect ourselves from others who would supposedly take us back to the 12th.
Fear makes people dumb.
These people are so fucking scary.
You can have all the religion you like, "whatever gets you through the night"
BUT
when YOUR night intrudes on MY day -- that's when I draw the line.
This stuff really makes all the Rev. J-Wright mess look mild ...
Actually, "spiritual warfare" faith is a fundamental element of the Christian faith. It's nothing new. It just doesn't get publicized much, for obvious reasons. I can't vouch for this specific branch of it, though. There are obviously plenty of people who futz around with such "wacky" ideas, who do it for all the wrong reasons, whether they realize it or not.
Don't worry. We won't hurt you.
Hopefully only one more day, and we don't need to think about this craziness!
- Jeniece Primus
Matt, no need for the condescending tone. There is the traditional notion of "spiritual warfare," lower-case, and there is a specific and relatively new Pentecostal movement that has adopted this as their title: "Spiritual Warfare." Very different. What's being discussed in this post is the latter, and how its adherents, which include figures of public office, are encouraged to implement their faith in office to alter government.
Is it my imagination, or does Dr. Wagner look like the secret love child of Lt. Frank Drebin and Colonel Sanders?
y'know, when Bush was pandering to the faithful to get votes and using evangelicism to bolster support for all sorts of issues.. it was bad but understandable. It was a tactic. Something contrived but not necessarily believed. Empty rhetoric, if you will. Which I can understand, even relate to on some level.
But these people actually believe this shit.
ACTUALLY.
I'm genuinely scared of the consequences in a way that Bush just couldn't summon in me. Not because somehow they might be right and are actually battling demons. But because they REALLY BELIEVE this shit.
(excuse the caps, but I felt it was worth shouting)
That the destruction of the WTC was blowback? No shit.
'll stp mntnng bm's cnnctns t th Nw Prty, yrs, CRN, nd Wrght f y stp dlvng nt Srh Pln's
Deal? :)
Yep, I would have said Phil Donahue and Cl. Sanders
My church, Church of Christ, is very mild mannered compared to these churches. Politics hasn't come up in any sermons, or religious conversations. In my opinion, praying to your God about politics or a candidate is wrong. I don't believe a God (take your pick),would have any interest in the outcome of an election.
This supposed spiritual warfare reminds me of that psychic that used to appear on the Tonight Show and get TV viewers to use their collective will to effect things. Or maybe it was a radio show? Someone help me out here.
ZuZu,
Wait.. you mean it's not generally understood the WTC was blowback?
mmmmm, bulging and wet.
could we call it JuJu Christian Witchcraft Black Magic Warfare?
spiritual warfare is battling one's own demons.
or JebusChrister Jihad?
instead of itijihad.
Arkizzle,
I dunno, is this like Bob Kerrey saying that Democratic party Presidency and filibuster-proof Congress does not constitute a "mandate" for.... *gasp* repealing the PATRIOT Act? (Heaven forfend! ::sarcasm:: )
Sorry, pduggie: your logic is broken, and you don't get to dictate what we blog about on Boing Boing.
@Yep, I, too, was thinking Angry Colonel Sanders.
If the great Warriors could just look at themselves in a mirror and repeat. " The Antichrist are probably Me" , they might get a clue.
Funny. I kept reading the headline as Spiritual Welfare.
Flntboat: hah!
He looks damn creepy to me. I would not buy his chicken!
If you haven't seen the documentary "Jesus Camp" yet, you should. Illuminating and frightening.
www.jesuscampthemovie.com
Zu²
I'm afraid I'm not fluent enough in Americaneese politics to parse most of that, but let's say "yes".
Nice little fantasy they got going there. Hell, next time these folks get captured by the Burmese police, I'm staying on my side of the border. No you can't rent my boat.
I caught the middle/tail end of a program on NPR yesterday about why the founding fathers advocated for the separation of church and state. Apparently we're seeing what they feared would occur--that mixing the two leads to a resentment of religion, far more than of politics.
The result being that people become disenfranchised with religion more or less permanently, but that they'll come around on politics (eventually).
The program is called Speaking of Faith. Good stuff.
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/2008/liberating_the_founders/
Check out this video I found on youtube. Burn 24/7 is a code word for the same organization (joel's army) and is apparently truly going global. I ony discovered this yesterday when I was researching children's orphanges in Nepal to donate to. I did a google search and came up with another video of memberes of this group at an orphoanage, which was clearly run by them, where the children are praying in tongues. it is bizarre. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4u5rKBPFPg also, google in Burn Nepal to find lots more. After further research, I found this group was all tied in to the Sara Palin group. The website they post is www.theburn247.com. As someone who works in Nepal much of the year in the development field, I was truly stunned to see they had spread to Nepal and were taking advantage of impoverished innocent children. I am not knocking all missionaries, as many do "good works", have built hospitals, clinics, etc, and do not actively proselytize, especially in such an extreme way. To say this is a cult is an understatement.
Religious extremism freaks me out to no end, but I can't tell whether or not Sarah Palin is actually a part of this religious sect. Political smears come from both sides and it wouldn't surprise me if she had just as much of a "relation" with this spiritual warrior as Barack Obama had with Bill Ayers. Things seem like they are getting blown out of proportion way too easily.
My wife is a republican and I'm not anything, mainly distrustful of govt.
She and I got into it yesterday about Palin and my wife was putting forth that Palin is a "good Christian", and stuck by it. Then I educated her about the fact that Palin's particular brand of religion is incredibly anti-Catholic. I think I finally reached her.
Religion has no place in politics. I respect every person's set of beliefs, please don't force them on me, or on the entire country, thanks.
Tomorrow is a big day. I'm still unsure of who to vote for. I know that I will bring my 4 year old son along with me, and point out some of the really positive things this country stands for.
per my post above, you can see the youtube video of the nepal children's home with members of this
"Spiritual Warfare" group praying (speaking in tongues, "burning" with fire) over these young, innocent kids. It is quite shocking and is connected to the same philosophy of those who were in the documentary Jesus Camp. Also that of Sara Palin's church, of which she was an active member of and still has close connections to. My question is, why did this come out in the national media so late?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXV-_L_5e1g
another great article about this group in this month's southern poverty law center intelligence report as a group to watch in the future, as their retoric is getting increasily hate filled. don't have the url of that at the moment.
@Cool Products, I think it's pretty clear from the church's own documents and online videos that Palin was and/or is an active participant. I don't think that's a smear.
Bill Ayers wasn't a preacher, you seem to be confusing things that aren't at all analogous.
Sarah Palin's birthplace is Sandpoint, Idaho, The capital of both Bonner County and the Aryan Nations. It is the center of white-supremacism in the US. In Idaho, use of the word "Sandpoint" in conversation is typically referring to Nazis.
The Pentecostalism crap is mostly just cover.
Jesus Camp scared the hell out of me - in my opinion it's a form of intense child abuse. Funny thing, a few days after watching it, I heard that my niece had told her parents that Hillary and Obama were covered in blood from all of the abortions that they allowed to happen. The source? Her grandmother. Nice going.
#34 NOEN - Godwin invoked.
@noen - It is the center of white-supremacism in the US.
fail, fail, fail: Palin has five half-Inuit children.
Correction to my last comment
Palin has five half-Yup'ik children.
my bad.
Forcible massive transit of wealth from the "godless" to members of this movement?
I'm telling you, this is right out of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale".
*shudder*
Tom Hale:
The 1970s psychic was Uri Geller. Here's Raymond Burr to tell you all about him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egJ5exiQhy8#t=0m44s
"Tuscaloosa Plumbers for Jesus" McCain Robo Calls...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIaIvgmqsSY
Godwin invoked.
Protests of "godwin" fail when you actually are a Nazi.
fail, fail, fail: Palin has five half-Inuit children.
Because white-supremacists don't have children?
I hope after tomorrow we will no longer have to give a shit about Palin. Harris is finished as she was too radical for Florida even.
MDH @38,
Are you saying the First Dude is a Yup'ik?
What am I missing? (don't say "A couple of chromosomes.") Surely most of you see the ridiculousness of their effort, don't you? Its true than Republicans have always used religion to attract voters, but this Spiritual Warfare thing is a joke. I'm sure any smart Christian would know that the vast majority of Republican politicians along with their Democratic counterparts don't give a damn about religion, other than as a tool to get votes.
To me, any truly religious person that thinks their God wants a certain party to win is either dumb or a hypocrite. I'm not going to get preachy here, but let me ask, whether you believe a God exists or not, what do you think [any]God is concerned about? There is only one answer (IMO).
Old and Busted:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/marlatenenbaum/marguerite_perrin.jpg
New Hotness:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GodHGuug7Ns/SLlrM6pQA4I/AAAAAAAAAis/-iOU4enfL78/s400/SarahPalinVikings.gif
last youtube video, i promise (see my above posts about the Spiritual Warfare movement "invading" Nepal. i'm just killin' off nervous pre-election energy, I guess (oh, god, i'm soundin' like sara palin now, droppin' her g's, ya know). get past the springsteen track and on to the videos of sara palin herself in church talking about her faith and being prayed over by an african pastor who claims he drove witches out of his village:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4bDIdEKRw
Sarah Palin's christianity is just a front. Listen closely to her phone call with "Nicholas Sarkozy"....right at the end, as she is handing the phone back you can clearly hear her say "For chrissake...it's some radio station in France".
Pipenta @39:
Hmmm... I was thinking more along the lines of Robert A. Heinlein's "If This Goes On - ".
See this...
Wikipedia Link
Ironically, the biblical call to "spiritual warfare" is to encourage believers that they are NOT to engage in attacking people or rulers, or to engage in politics to this degree.
Christians are supposed to pray for their leaders so that things remain peaceful, and are to battle against "rulers, authorities and the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."
This isn't even to do with politics or nations. This is to do with individual people. If someone feels as though they are under some kind of spiritual attack, then Christians should pray for them and seek to cast out the demonic.
Now sure not everyone appreciates this kind of thing and see it as a bunch of hocus pocus but it's a much more personal thing than it is NWO.
Since MDH brought it up- Todd palin is an 8th Yup'ik, as his mother was a quarter, making his children like a 16th I think (am I doing my math right, people smarter than me)- for whatever it's worth. But the real question is how does he identify. Does he see himself as a Yup'ik, or as white. This would also provide an alternate explanation for him being interested in the Alaskan independence party, if he identifies as a real native Alaskan, in every sense (though his timing in joining is certainly fortuitous, as it coincides nicely with Sarah's connections to the party:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Palin
Noen, at 34- does that mean that everyone in Sandpoint Iowa is a Neo-Nazi? I'll grant you that it makes the likelihood higher that there is a connection...
I think the best reading of Palin is that she is an opportunist. She is out to empower herself, more than she is any sort of ideologue of any stripe. She's out for Sarah, I think.
Joel's Army makes these guys look pretty tame...now you can have the kids in black trenchcoats coming out of your local pentecostal church!
fear not Byronba, if the shade of Nehemiah Scudder were to rear its head there are enough of us that understand what that would mean to throw themselves on that grenade.
Noen, at 34- does that mean that everyone in Sandpoint Iowa is a Neo-Nazi?
It's Idaho, no I didn't say that. Why would you even think I did? Let's say that 30 years ago I said someone was from Salt Lake City. What would you assume? If we add that they've been video taped in a Mormon church receiving blessings, associates with Mormons, speaks before Mormon groups, is photographed with Mormon documents, spouts Mormon beliefs, I think we can safely assume that person is a Mormon.
Sarah Palin has done all those things. She's been video taped in a right wing extremist Pentecostalist church, she has associated with white-supremacists and even tried to get one appointed to a government position, she has been photographed holding extremist John Birch proaganda, has spoken before the right wing extremist "Alaskan Independence Party" and her husband (possibly her too) is a member, and she has spoken about her disbelief in evolution and climate change and finally has a warped understanding of freedom of speech to where she thinks the first amendment should prevent journalists from "attacking" politicians.
If it looks, walks and talks like a fascist, right wing, Pentecostalist loon (a kind of duck) then I think that's what it is.
Noen: I've said it before and I'll say it again: You rock! -And seem to have far more patience than I. =D
"I see a membrane bulging over this state..."
WTF? ewwwww!!!!
No need to get angry, Noen... it's all good... I'm certainly not defending the woman. In fact, if she isn't a true believer, doesn't that make her all that worse in a sense? I'm just not sure I'm convinced she is a true believer. The alternate view of her being an opportunist could still be valid.
Um... I know what a loon is... I did make it out of 5th grade thanks... ;-)
Gee, Phikus I didn't known dealing with those who "disagree" required patience as opposed to discussion.
Everyone needs to feel important in their lives, it's the very nature of the ego. In this case they have convinced themselves that they have power through prayer which can control the fate of the world (despite any testable evidence that their prayers are having any effect)-- how much more important (self-important) can you be when you have the fate of the world in your hands?
Is this what Jesus had in mind? I mean, really. . . how does "the meek shall inherit the Earth" or "blessed are the peacemakers" relate to their beliefs?
WOW! politics and religion in the same thread, it doesn't get any better.
The part of Glazner describing the incident at Delta Junction sounds like a case of demonic possession to me.
I, for one, welcome our bulging, membranous overlord.
Slanderous towards Loons....
Is it me or does he look like Coop's devil?
"WOW! politics and religion in the same thread, it doesn't get any better."
This does not bode well for the future of this thread. I sense an ill wind approaching. Everyone make sure your clothing is flame retardant.
Mindysan33: Sometimes it does indeed require a great deal of patience *sigh* in order to break things down in a discussion. But my comment was not meant as a slight toward you personally. I merely meant that Noen built that case painstakingly and on solid footing. I like to see that, whatever the case may be.
Worn Pass: I dunno. What do you look like? *drum rim shot*
Insane in the Membrane.
My in-laws, Church of Christ homophobics and 6,000 year old Earth creationists, think Obama is a racist and socialist, and they really like Sarah, because she's not a politician, "She's just regular people like us."
Al Fear, getting the people to take it personally, always makes the leaderships NWO position easier to hide. Maybe you're just giving them the benefit of the doubt, or maybe you're naive or too trusting, but if none of the former, please don't kid yourself or others. this stuff is dangerous, whether the people on the bottom know it or not.
No need to get angry, Noen
But I'm not angry Mindy, honest. All I did was to recall what Xeni has posted here the past couple of weeks about Sara Palin. I think a good case can be made that she considers herself a "spiritual warrior" and she associates with known white supremacists.
I'm feeling pretty hopeful. Looking forward to the glorious revolution of Barrack Hussein X. ;)
So I guess the "real America" Palin refers to in her speeches are the parts that have been spiritually cleansed of demons?
Especially those chocolatey gay demons.
This isn't religion, it's like some sort of group insanity, or is that what religion is anyway?
I'm rationally afraid of the people that are irrationally afraid of me.
I'll just pretend I'm a minor character in an uproariously funny and demented satire...There, that's much better.
Foetusnail: That must be why Tom Hale wears flame retardant clothing. ;D
WOW! politics and religion in the same thread, it doesn't get any better.
I was hoping they'd bring up the economy too!
I bet the trifecta.
"Foetusnail: That must be why Tom Hale wears flame retardant clothing. ;D"
Ah was pleasure it is to kneel so near the flame, your gear smoking from the radiant heat, your knees burning from the heated concrete through your turnout pants. I'm quite comfortable surrounded by fire, but only for a moment - then I do what I must, I darken the beautiful orange glow with a blast from my 30 gpm fog nozzle.
MDH, you're a winner! They are redistributing the wealth from the demons to the uh... other demons.
I grow scared.
Phikus: Tom H. makes me laugh while he's scareing the crap outta me, my in-laws are just plain scary.
See, if you're going to burn in hell you should know a firefighter.
I've been pretty close to such movements in the past, a few years ago. I find that they are often misunderstood more than anything else. For example, saying that they want to create theocracies is to really not get the point of what they are trying to do - which is to evangelize and then have those people take active roles in government.
Think of it this way - other groups are doing the exact same thing, they just give it less threatening names. Consider a group like Move On, or the NRA, or the ACLU, or many black churches. Each is trying to raise up a bunch of followers so that they can impact society and make it fit their version of the ideal.
Each openly admits that they want to conquer the opposing ideas and force their agenda on the country. But they say it in terms that are less offensive to outsiders of their cause.
considering that for almost a decade,literally millions upon millions if not indeed billions have prayed for George Bush's early demise on a daily basis - I think we can dismiss the power of prayer.
Foetus
My in-laws, Church of Christ homophobics and 6,000 year old Earth creationists, think Obama is a racist and socialist, and they really like Sarah, because she's not a politician, "She's just regular people like us."
Hmm.
I have these people as aunts and uncles. I can relate. Certain family events are cringe-tastic.
"Its adherents believe that demonic forces can colonize specific geographic areas and individuals, and that “spiritual warriors” must “battle” them to assert God’s control, using prayer and evangelism."
What's the handy thing about attributing human problems to outside sources? Swooping in to save souls? More likely a literal "demonizing" of the Other. At least the demonic possession angle works both ways.
Yeah, you gotta admit, a man describing playing with his fog nozzle is pretty darn sexy. ;D
You guys aren't confusing the Church of Christ with the latter day saints are you? Church of Christ members are like really strict Baptists. I was raised in Methodist and Baptist churches with a year or so at an Assembly of God church. Many Church of Christ members think the others are going to Hell because they don't go strictly by the New Testament. Me, sure I'm a member, but I just go because my wife makes me and too set a good example for my kids.
There's no indication in Scripture that God wants His followers to set up theocratic states in any way, shape, or form. As a matter of fact, Christ told His followers to 'sit down and STFU', as 'my kingdom is NOT of this world' (obviously I paraphrased that somewhat, ok?). I just had this argument with a nice fundamentalist lady who thinks that as a Christian, it's her duty to elect Christian representatives (specifically anti-abortion ones, in her case- nothing else matters really). She claimed that ancient Jewish history (as written in the Old Testament, and Torah) proved that God wants His chosen to rule a physical kingdom, or Nation. She uses examples of God having the Israelites completely destroy those nations who opposed them as proof of this theory. She failed to recognise that God never intended the Israelites to be a typical Nation: their desire to have a king like their neighbours was, in fact, their downfall. All of this to me indicates a stream-of-consciousness towards a non-corporeal State; a spiritual kingdom, if you will. The problem is that American Christians seriously believe that Democracy (particularly their brand of it) is God's Way. They are typically the most rabidly anti-socialists on the planet, which is ironic, considering that Christ's instructions also included caring for the sick, naked, hungry, imprisoned, et al; all the persons typically marginalised by a Free Market, Capitalistic society.
Unfortunately, while most of the world (geographically, though not numerically, perhaps) has evolved a stronger sense of community and sense of 'love your neighbour as yourself', the American Religious Right has moved in the opposite direction. Decrying any moves toward socialised medicine or higher taxes as 'Communist', they aggressively enact policies that continue to marginalise the poor and less fortunate, while benefiting major corporate interests owned by their fellow right-winged Christian friends.
Getting back on track (regarding the topic of the post), those who bring spiritual warfare into the realm of politics are logically breaking Christ's command where He said we were to 'love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbour as yourself.' While I am obviously not an American, I would be loathe to live in a regime where Palin's particular brand of Christianity was actively supported by its administration. Christian theocracies are no better than any other; Christianity's history is no cleaner than Islam's in that regard. As a Christian, I'd feel much more comfortable being governed by Atheists than Christians: the Atheists are much lees likely to take an interest in anything I do with regard to my religious practices. Evangelical, right-wing Christians are much too eager to grab their torches and pitchforks when encountering anything outside their own paradigm. Anyone not conforming to their model is branded a cult, and condemned in verbal, print, and mass media rhetoric (see the oft-mentioned Jack Chick comics for solid proof of this attitude). And lest anyone think I'm talking out my ass here, let me assure you I know what I'm talking about: I was raised in a radically right-wing, charismatic (ie: tongue-speaking, carpet-timing, slamming-the-forehead) church whose members I am sure are at this moment fervently praying for McCain and Palin's election victory. There is a scary amount of brainwashing that goes on in these organisations, and it's only because I discovered that there were other Christians who felt the same as me that I didn't abandon my faith altogether. Once I recognised the fundamental twisting of Scripture that these people employ to further their agenda, I was able to reconcile my faith with my desire for social justice. My parents are freaked out because I don't lose it when one of my kids says 'fuck'; yet they will look the other way when approached by a homeless person with a tin cup. Spiritual warfare to me means putting $20 in that cup, or buying Kiva gift certificates as Christmas presents, or having my local grocery store bill me for a poor family's weekly shopping.
Those are the things that will bring joy to person's spirit, much more than praying for the recovery of the stock market, or claiming that God wants His children to be rich.
#81 Phikus - Yeah, the ladies love that - its a shame that I'm so darned married. There have been many temptations and close calls in my 20 years of marriage, but so far I've been faithful. I have not had sexual relations with other women. If you know what I mean. Now - everyone make sure my wife doesn't read this post. Thanks
anthony - What's the handy thing about attributing human problems to outside sources? Swooping in to save souls? More likely a literal "demonizing" of the Other. At least the demonic possession angle works both ways.
No weirder than crystals and chakras, or pixies and witchcraft, and just as proveable.
Mounting evidence suggests John McCain's running mate Sarah Palin is deeply involved with a global religious movement bent on imposing theocracies around the world and whose top leader, C. Peter Wagner, has decreed to his followers it is God's will that a forcible, massive transfer of wealth, from the 'godless' to members of his movement, take place.
And she call Obama a redistributionist? God bless her. No one else will.
@82, how can hypocritical behaviour set an example?
@83 "carpet timing"?
Takuan #87 - My kids no nothing that would lead them to think I'm being hypocritical. They are 18 and 14, so their minds are pretty much set for or against religion. Anything that I do that they may see as hypocritical would simply make them angry or resentful towards me - not make them doubt their religious beliefs.
#88: 'Carpet time' is a term used to describe the act of being 'slain in the Spirit': you've probably seen those train-wreck videos of TV evangelists knocking people over? The whole lying-on-the-floor-twitching (or not twitching, in some cases) is what we skeptics called 'carpet time'. As opposed to the 'do the carpets match the drapes' kind of carpet time. *grin*
ah, so. Thank you.
A commenter in another post said, "To me, Jesus is still a role model. I wouldn't call myself a Christian, though, because the kind of people who do are not the kind of people I'd want to associate with, for reasons made only too clear in this very thread."
I like to say, I don't have a problem with Jesus, it's all these damn christians that worry me. Jesus taken in context, considering his upbringing was a stand up guy. Doesn't really matter if he existed, the basic love thy neighbor and forgiveness I can get behind.
The idea is these people don't follow Jesus. These people are bat shit crazy, and dangerous as hell. If Jesus does return, he'll take his first swipe at them just as he hit the Jews first 2,000 years ago.
BTW, all three desert cults wash brains.
The real problem is not extremists, but moderates. These extremists recruit moderates. Moderates of all stripes give these extremists too much respect and tolerance, neither of which they deserve.
OK, this is weird - notice at post #88 Takuan had to ask for an explanation about something. Log it in your journals as I have. The big question is, is this a good or bad omen? I'll have to speak about this with my church pastor about this unsettling event. Keywords - confusion, darkness, uncertainty, - this may take a few sessions. In the meantime, a Xanax should do the trick.
@#94: Omen, eh? Probably shouldn't ask your pastor about omens...'signs', perhaps- it's a much more biblical term! *grin*
Hook me up with the Xanax- at least till The Election is over! Here, put it in the drinking water!
Oh, and in my above post, it should read #89 -carpet timing. Something must have been deleted.
foetus, i have only met 2 REAL christians in my life. they had sold all their worldly belongings, given most of the money to organizations that help the poor, took their microbus and followed jesus. doing what it took to get where they felt they needed to be. they literally wore sackcloth robes and sandals. they preached god is love, love your neighbor as yourself, feed the hungry, heal the sick, how we treat the least among us is how we will be judged. the real deal. they spoke of no different denominations, or heirarchies, or any real dogma. never met anyone quite like them since. i think most folk are attracted to the whole "all u gotta do is repent in the name o jeebus and a grand eternity awaits". easy peesy japanesey. no real thought or effort involved. just dress up a little one day a week for a couple hours, eat the wafer and drink the koolaid, or pass the snakes or whichever pagan ritual was adopted to that specific sect, tithe yer 10%, and you're out the door whistlin'. sin as much as ya want, because as long as you follow those rules, you gettin the keys to the kingdom! can i gets a Hallelujah!
OMG! My membranes!
#97 minTphresh, you are incorrect, but let's not get into a religious discussion - k? I will admit that many professed "Christians" are exactly the way you described, but that, nor the "REAL" example that you described is what the Christian Bible teaches how or what one should do to live the way God wants us to live and believe.
But come on - let's talk about a less serious topic.
@ Tom
mintphresh's comment seems to lay out their criteria for determining those who actually believe the tenants of Christianity and those who merely say they believe. You may disagree with mintphresh's criteria, but how can you say they are wrong?
I'm not trying to be particularly snarky as I enjoy reading your comments. I'm fidgety right now because of the election tomorrow and am using that energy to point out a conflation that you don't normally do.
(I also realize my screen name and want to say the use of the plural pronoun is intentional)
as mel brooks famously said:"..meh, go drink the blood of your dead savior."
#93 FOETUSNAIL
Well said.
Now let us all recite the lyrics from "Jesus was Way Cool" by King Missile.
Tom,
Because "think[ing] the others are going to Hell because they don't go strictly by the New Testament" is a good example to set? If not, you can set just as good an example at home.
Totally, Tom. *wink*
Totally.
#4 Matt
We only have all of history to prove you wrong :)
I respect your faith well enough, just don't declare it harmless. The Bible is about inclusion and tolerance, religion is about exclusion and judgmentalism.
let's not get into a religious discussion - k?
The thread is about spiritual warfare believers so it seems to me that discussing religion is on the menu.
but that, nor the "REAL" example that you described is what the Christian Bible teaches how or what one should do to live the way God wants us to live and believe.
So sayeth you, others say differently. A good number of Christians believe that since they are saved they can do no wrong. After all, once you are saved and have gotten "right with God" and live your life in "accordance with His will" how could you do anything wrong? God's will becomes your will and therefore whatever you do must be God's will, even murder.
It makes sense then if you believe that to do whatever it takes to infiltrate every level of government in order to bring it into line with God's commandments and His vision for America.
So how do you know if you are right with God and doing his will? Well, his anointed ones will tell you, usually a pastor or other leader in a position of authority. You can then go about doing the Lord's work guilt free. That's a powerful mix there. If their leaders weren't so busy doing lines of coke off a gay hooker's ass we'd be in real trouble.
Noen@105: Hey now. You don't want to insult the gay hookers who may be reading this. ;D
minTphresh: Hallelujah! It is always rather strange when I meet the rare christian. When I think of Jesus, I first subtract all of the metaphysical stuff and sales pitch miracles. Then I toss most of the bad book in the grinder. What I'm left with is sort of a Middle Eastern Bodhisattva, not too much different from most Buddhas, but who knows, nothing's perfect.
Thanks Ill Lich, great video, I had no idea, "Jesus Was Way Cool" indeed.
From Wikipedia: Queen Māyā and King Suddhodhana did not have children for twenty years into their marriage. One day however, according to legend, Queen Māyā dreamt of a divine Bodhisattva on white elephant touching her side, and became pregnant. According to Buddhist tradition, the Buddha-to-be was residing as a Bodhisattva, in the Tuṣita heaven, and decided to take the shape of a white elephant to be reborn, for the last time, on Earth. Māyā gave birth to Siddharta c. 563 BCE. The pregnancy lasted ten lunar months. Following custom, the Queen returned to her own home for the birth. On the way, she stepped down from her palanquin to have a walk in the beautiful flower garden of Lumbini Park, Lumbini Zone, Nepal. She was delighted by the park and she reached for a branch to take a rest. Again according to legend, at this time Prince Siddhārtha emerged from her right side and was born. It was the eighth day of April. She gave him his first bath in the Puskarini pond in Lumbini Zone. Siddhārtha means "He who has accomplished his goals" or "The accomplished goal".
But of course unreal christians believe that's just a myth, written years after his birth.
Is the “Virgin Birth” of Jesus Grounded in Paganism?
By WAYNE JACKSON
September 3, 2002
The truth is, however, there is a vast difference between the record of Christ’s conception and birth, as recorded in Matthew and Luke’s Gospel narratives, and those alleged “supernatural” births of primitive paganism. Here are some very important points worthy of reflection.
(1) Mary was a virgin girl of Nazareth. She was “betrothed” to Joseph but they had never been intimate (Mt. 1:25; Lk. 1:34). Her conception was a miracle (Mt. 1:18ff; Lk. 1:35ff).
(2) It must be stressed, however, that, unlike the stories of paganism which had maidens consorting with the gods, there is no indication whatever in the biblical accounts that Mary had any sort of sexual union—either with God the Father, or with the Holy Spirit. It was simply by the “power” of God that the conception occurred (Lk. 1:35).
(3) The scriptural narratives are not cumbered with the absurdities that are uniformly characteristic of the so-called “miracle” births of antiquity.
(4) The New Testament records of the virgin birth were penned by writers who stood in close historical proximity with the actual birth event. Matthew was one of the Lord’s apostles. And Luke, a physician (Col. 4:14) and first-rate historian, was a companion of Paul. He researched carefully the data regarding Jesus (Lk. 1:3).
Sir William Ramsay, once skeptical of Luke’s reliability, after much on-site research, was forced to conclude that “Luke’s history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness” (p. 81).
Both Matthew and Luke, of course, wrote under the oversight of the Spirit of God. Moreover, these men were willing to lay their lives on the line to authenticate the credibility of their messages.
Louis Matthews Sweet is quoted in the same article:
“After a careful, laborious, and occasionally wearisome study of the evidence offered and the analogies urged, I am convinced that heathenism knows nothing of virgin births. Supernatural births it has without number, but never from a virgin in the New Testament sense and never without physical generation, except in a few isolated instances of magical births on the part of women who had not the slightest claim to be called virgins. In all recorded instances which I have been able to examine, if the mother was a virgin before conception took place she could not make that claim afterward” (p. 188).
Well, I'm glad that's settled.
On second thought
The part of Glazner describing the incident at Delta Junction also sounds a lot like my last Jose Quervo tequila night
to ZuZu -- Rev. Wright said that the U.S. Government created AIDS ... among many other incindiary things.
Rev. Wright said that the U.S. Government created AIDS ... among many other incindiary things.
and?
I mean WOW!!!! Fiery rhetoric from a pastor of a church full of people who feel disempowered. Who could have known that would pack the aisles.
It's the mega-churches and their open crusade against 1/5th of the worlds population (Ron Parsley) that worries me, not someone (Wright) who dares to admit to unpopular beliefs.
FoetusNail -- For people around that time, "Virgin" did not mean what we understand it to mean today. It simply meant a young girl. People also did not correctly understand the role of sex in reproduction.
Virgin In ancient mystic philosophy the feminine potency of nature as well as cosmic space which is often referred to as the immaculate celestial virgin (cosmogonically undifferentiated cosmic matter, alaya, mahabuddhi, etc.), or the astral light which is sometimes called the celestial virgin. Again, it refers to the numerous Queens of Heaven, such as Isis, Moon, Ashtoreth, Nuah (the Chaldean feminine Noah considered as one with the cosmic arc), Belita, Diana, Artemis, Ark, etc. -- most of these names having reference to the moon. However, a sharp distinction should be made between the idea of the virgin connected with the lower planes of matter, including celestial bodies such as the moon, and the immaculate or undifferentiated cosmic virgin which is the immaculate spatial mother of the cosmic deep. On lower planes the Mother-Virgin is the various wombs of hierarchies, a feminine Manu or Prajapati, through whom pour the seeds of life from higher cosmic planes. The cosmic virgin is immaculate, and the zodiacal sign Virgo is her emblem; in human affairs she represents the nature of humanity before the division into sexes, in commemoration of which the sign Virgo became divided into Virgo and Scorpio. The name may also be used of a virgin male such as a kumara.
The ideas of the Virgin Mary in orthodox Christianity have been taken over from the pagans, as for example from the mother in the triad which heads all cosmogonies of the countries surrounding the Mediterranean Sea (Isis, Juno, etc.). The word Mary from the Hebrew would seem etymologically cognate with the Latin mare (sea); the Hebrew word meaning bitter, and the sea likewise being bitter it is also cognate with other words meaning water, as in the Jewish expression, the waters of space, or the feminine productive principle.
There is nothing unique about the virgin Mary, or the Christ for that matter. They were a dime a dozen back then.
foetus, does jackson say that mattew and luke actually wrote the scripture? that would be a big red flag for me. it is histoical fact that the scriptures were word of mouth until the 4th century a.d., long after their deaths. "And Luke, a physician (Col. 4:14) and first-rate historian, was a companion of Paul. He researched carefully the data regarding Jesus (Lk. 1:3)." gimme a freekin break. what 'data'? the whole virgin birth meme was put into play long after Yeshua's, err, sorry "Jesus'" death. ( there was NEVER a first century Jew named Jesus,EVER.) to bring in the target audience of the early gnostics: the greeks. they needed a godess figure as most grecian cults were dedicated to their various godesses. however, most of the jeebus mythos is VERY closely related to the Dionysus myth.
Not to be fitting my head up anyone's chute, but this place is great. You people amaze me, entertain me, and teach me. I spend my entire day in the company of some amazing kids, whom I learn from every day, so my wife doesn't understand why I like this so much. But you people are just like talking to knowledgeable four year olds and I love it! Meaning you've not lost that curiosity or sense of wonder, and you know how to read.
Remember, it ain't necessary to be an adult, just a reasonable child. Be the unadult(erated) child.
Phikus, if you're going to stick around on Boing Boing, you're going to wind up getting to know Tom Hale. Now would be a good time to start learning how to get along. Tom, same goes for getting to know Phikus and Takuan.
Phikus, Noen, you know all those times you've seen me explain to commenters that their comments get disemvowelled or unpublished for being rude, and not because we disagree with their sentiments? Not that you're going over the line right now, just for future reference, the same applies to comments the moderators would personally agree with: if they're excessively rude, they'll get zapped.
...
Pduggie @10, no deal, and you're way off topic.
Takuan @15: If what they were doing worked, that's what it would be.
Anonymous @29 and elsewhere, if these are the same people, they're alarming -- and not just when they're in Nepal.
Pipenta @39, I don't think this one is about transfers of wealth. I think it's about maintaining an atmosphere of divisiveness and fear.
Tom Hale @45, I wish more people were that enlightened. You know they pray for God to affect the outcome of football games. I think we have to assume they pray for that in political races as well.
Noen @54:
I would have assumed that you stood a good chance of being LDS, but might well be a nonbeliever, or belong to some other faith. There's been a Jewish community in SLC since pioneer days.GauchoAmigo @56: As I understand the image, without God's mercy, his wrath and punishment for our sins would trickle down on us at a fairly constant rate. His mercy is the membrane that keeps this from happening. When our sinfulness becomes excessive, the membrane starts to bulge, and in extreme cases can burst and shower down the full measure of God's wrath upon our heads.
It's a colorful way to get around the fact that there's no measurable correlation between God's supposed punishments of certain areas, and those areas' rate of sinfulness as calculated by these fruitloops.
They say they worship Jesus, but their notion of geographically specific punishments for localized sins is pure Old Testament. As is so frequently the case, they adopt the bits of the OT they find convenient, and ignore the rest. (See also.)
Slida @71, technically it does qualify as religion, but it's diverging from traditional mainstream Christianity at an accelerating rate.
Freetardzero @84, that ran long, but it was interesting getting to watch you process the questions.
Maddy @109, for a long time now there've been rumors floating around the black communities that AIDS was an invention of the U.S. government. There are historical precedents for that belief. It was indiscreet and perhaps ill-judged of Rev. Wright to talk about it in a public context, but that doesn't make him uniquely crazy or hateful.
What can I say? I'm sorry it came as news to you?
Would you by any chance be aware of how many far more prominent white ministers have preached that AIDS is God's punishment on gays, and on Americans for tolerating gays? Personally, I find that a lot more objectionable than thinking AIDS is the government's fault.