White Supremacists Plotted to Assasinate Obama, Behead Black Children
Arrests in Plan to Kill Obama and Black Schoolchildren (New York Times).The assassination was to be the culmination of a “killing spree” that would also single out children at an unnamed, predominately black school, federal officials said. The men talked of “killing 88 people and beheading 14 African-Americans,” according to the affidavit.
The two men each had “very strong views” about Aryan white power and “skinhead” ideology, the federal officials said, and the numbers 88 and 14 have special significance in the white power movement. The number 88 is shorthand for “Heil Hitler” — H is the eighth letter in the alphabet —and 14 signifies a 14-word mantra among white supremacists: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”
Officials said the two men met via the Internet through a mutual friend.
Smoking Gun has a copy of the ATF affidavit, which reveals that the fashion-conscious FAIL duo planned to wear white tuxedoes and top hats to the massacre. Here's a video of Obama's response to the news. Here are the original PDFs of the ATF affidavit , complaint, and news release.
Previously on Boing Boing:
Black man dragged to death 200 miles from site of Byrd murder 10 years ago.
the latest
latest episodes
hv flng tht Mr. Prtty-Fc-Swstk-Ttt s gng t b th mst pplr btch n hs wng f th prsn.
Just when I start feeling good about America again, some assholes have to go fuck it up.
It's sad that people think like this.
Somehow I doubt these guys will find their way to GTMO.
It's merely a law enforcement issue when they are white domestic terrorists but an international Muslim conspiracy against Western Civilization necessitating a war on Terror when it's a couple of Afghan Taxi drivers in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It scares me to know that people like this are still around. I mean, really.
ignorance is the deadliest plague in this world. they should lock him up and make him listen to the beatles all day...he'd probably die soon after.
It was 102 black kids (school) and it was about a well developed a plan as my high school buddies' "Crossbows in the mall" scenario.
Xeni I noticed you dropped the "Hussein" from your name....hope this is only temporary and you're not afraid of Mr. Coward, oops I mean Cowart....because you KNOW we got your back always.
These people don't think, they respond to stimuli.
@Mojave: Heh, thanks. But it was a statement, not a permanent identity. The statement's been made. Prolonging the gag amounts to a "hey look at me you guys" thing, and that wasn't the intent.
Once a guilty verdict is returned, just execute the summabitches.
@#1, you know, I bet there are guys in the joint already having dreams about his full, sweet lips. *shudder*
@#6, perceptions change when you have a high power scoped rifle brandished in hand. This would make it the second group of skinheads to come up with an attempt plan (though the one in Denver was slightly more credible).
Sigh...you know, I just hold my head in my hands and just wonder- if you ARE going to commit a major crime like this, and want SOME plausible deniability, why wait until AFTER you are 18? Being a minor counts for something, even if it is just another hearing before the DA tries you as an adult.
While I would consider him somewhat of a threat based on his actions, I truly pity this kid who picked the worst way to prove he is some kind of man.
This nicely proves that conservative white males (I think we can safely bet they were McCain supporters) are far more dangerous than some illusory "Muslim terrorists".
So no more of this "Obama people are so mean" whine...the other side is planning mass murder along with an assassination.
If there's one thing that I find reassuring, it's that most white supremacists are probably too stupid to actually carry out such plans.
This is really sad to hear - Glad they were intercepted, though
i'm sorry, Paul SCHLESSELMAN is a neo-nazi? i think his mom forgot to tell him something.
it kinda reminds me of the Dave Chappelle's "blind black white supremacist" sketch.
"Las' week, I co0-n't eben spel "white soopremasist"!
Now Ah IS Wun!
Even THEY didn't think they would actually be able to kill Obama. They thought it more likely that they would die in the attempt. So suicide gunmen... Sound like terrorists to me. Ship THEIR asses to Guantanamo.
"Officials said the two men met via the Internet through a mutual friend"
Do you suppose that mutual friend works at the FBI?
I tend to think the same as #8. It's like watching a simple machine running its routines, only the machine can talk to you and is allowed to purchase firepower.
I cannot advocate their death, bt d thnk thy shld b ntrd. Simple-minded people like this are driven more by chemicals, anyway. Remove the main source of their aggression and you can remove most of the threat they pose.
Ahem, yass, all very droll. Now sweep it up and re-double your vigilance. This silly/sad little pustule was never a real threat - those are still out there.
Is he wearing makeup?
Is he wearing makeup? More specifically eye shadow & lipstick? 'Cause that's what it looks like. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Now, normally I wouldn't question a man's masculinity or fighting prowess over some eye shadow & lipstick. But this here's one of them Neo-Nazis! A white supremacist und a model of ze Aryan race! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
He sure do look purty, though, don't he? Heheheheheheh.
Dumbass...
I got to wonder, is right to even think of these two shit heads as people? Some of this would make more sense if we thought of them as rogue robots who need to be re-programmed. Somewhere down the line, something went wrong with their circuits - maybe too much exposure to uranium or lead.
Where do you GET A GUN THAT BIG?
HAHA! White top hats and tuxedos!? If this weren't so serious, I'd swear they had to be joking. Ridiculous!
I predict more cracker sociopaths will be following in this gentleman's footsteps. Its going to be a good year four years for hot whitebread prison sex.
I think the appropriate response for those poor kids should be pity. They didn't make that crap up, they learned it from someone. Don't get me wrong, they made their own choices, but that level of hatred has to be taught. Ignorance, and isolation in combination are deadly. You have to wonder how these kids would have turned out if they'd grown up somewhere else.
h wll, th nxt fw yrs wll b xtr dctnl fr thm. f fr n thr rsn thn h's hdd t prsn sr s th dy s lng, nd ths r sm >wflly prtty lps. Smn s gnn hv sm rnc fn crvng >tht ntch n thr bnk.
I was seriously expecting this crap around the time of the DNC. Anybody shocked and surprised by this needs to take off the shades no matter how much they like their rose color.
i'm sorry, Paul SCHLESSELMAN is a neo-nazi? i think his mom forgot to tell him something.
There are jewish neo-nazis. It's a strange world.
Mr. Pretty-Face-Swastika-Tattoo is going to be the most popular bitch in his wing of the prison
Ah.. no... that would be the typical American fantasy. The collective American subconscious is just begging for hot gay prison sex but the reality is far different. People divide up into their tribes, the gays, the blacks, the Latinos and the white supremacists. If he's straight he'll hold off as long as he can and then buy a blow job for a few packs of cigs and forget about it.
1. They're clearly terrorists, like Eric Rudolph, who isn't in Gitmo either. I believe no American citizens are held there.
2. Cupcake Faerie, it's absolutely right to think of them as people. People are capable of the most monstrous acts. The tendency toward monstrousness is part of the human condition (but so is the tendency toward kindness). By "othering" these shitheads you (generic) make yourself comfortable, but you erode your own resistance to the monstrousness within yourself.
3. I'm finding all this gloating over this jerk's probable rape in prison pretty distasteful. As a gay man, I'm pretty sure he'd kill me as soon as look at me, and I have very little sympathy for him; still, it's a terrible tragedy that he's so twisted that prison is the right place for him, and an ENORMOUS tragedy that rape is a normal part of prison life. I don't think rape is an appropriate punishment for ANYTHING, including rape.
Comments in this therad aren't being DV, they are being outright deleted.
I agree heartily with Xopher, who is threatening to inject some humanity and scary reality into this disturbingly-prison-rape-oriented discussion.
This plot to assassinate Obama, and the associated killing spree, is not really unexpected. Hopefully no-one actually gets there.
While I find this totally repugnant and agree that they are suicide terrorists, I am also dismayed at how easily intelligent and thoughtful people fall into the same mentality - wanting them killed or castrated, raped in prison, and/or not seeing them as people.
Guys this is the same process that created the two skinheads this story is about.
Is that a G3 he's holding? I mean, I guess a German rifle would be most appropriate for such a thing, but come on! Does he really think he can take on an army of secret service with an outdated rifle from the 50's?
Comments in this thread aren't being DV, they are being outright deleted.
That would be unpublished. If you want to take another crack at your comment without the histrionics, I'm here all night.
this disturbingly-prison-rape-oriented discussion.
I'm officially calling shenanigans on the prison rape 'joke'.
I'm nervous about the use of the word "plot" in descriptions of this. Isn't "fantasized" a better term? I've been reading over the limited amount of information available on this investigation and arrest, and I don't see a serious plot here? I mean, did they rent/buy the tuxedos? Did they really have the resources, transport and skills to carry it out? Or were they a bunch of morons with guns, who happened to be under government surveillance, and who said the wrong things to the wrong people?
Since 9/11, the government doesn't seem to be able to differentiate between the desires of misanthropes and actual subversive plots.
Obama murder thread part two: sans the crap: let's go!
compare and contrast
http://www.dominionpaper.ca/weblogs/david_parker/2180
Sure looks to be wearing a lot of makeup for a skinhead.
Can't we say that Palin's hateful rhetoric ordered them to do it? That she's an inciter and instigator? I mean, if you have a sort of white supremacist person calling Obama names while running for vice president of a country, how are these kids to know that they are doing anything wrong in wanting to take out someone whom Palin sees as a threat to the country?
Or were they a bunch of morons with guns, who happened to be under government surveillance, and who said the wrong things to the wrong people?
Have you failed to notice that school shootings are a rather common occurrence these days? The resources required are minimal and it's quite easy to kill dozens in a matter of minutes. What is it exactly about the word plot that is not fulfilled by motive, weapons and simple opportunity?
@#40 Ever read The Dark Knight Returns?
http://bp2.blogger.com/_DTSboJzUQzk/R1RsmrF2_WI/AAAAAAAAA-4/YzOuGLOcbSg/s1600-R/PD1203Batman018.jpg
And on more closely examining the photo, I think he's wearing shaded glasses, rather than eyeshadow. But he DOES appear to be wearing lipstick.
Antinous - You have comments in this thread advocating the rape, neutering and/or execution of human beings based on their philosophy, indended actions, race, and/or appearance.
Exactly like a couple of skinheads. I might not like them either, but I can see when the same degree of bigotry is being used to judge them.
Go unpublish some of the hate speech you've allowed to be published in these comments, and I might not get so disgusted I go into 'histrionics'...
Daemon: catch on.
Cube,
I can only move so fast.
who's the buff chick?
So I get the 88/14 references, but where do white tuxedos and top-hats fit into the symbology of the white supremacist movement? Is that what they wore at Ruby Ridge or Waco? Was there a secret brigade of German shock troops in WWII that wore this outfit?
Google only points back to the original reports about the arrests.
@MichaelIRN, I think they have sort of a "Clockwork Cracker" thing going.
White tuxedoes? What about this "plot" has to do with strategy and tactics, and not about the aesthetics of the (I agree) fantasy? Insane kids come up with a consensual dream, there's a new one.
I suppose all 102 kids (plus Obama) were going to all be killed in one day, maybe the 88 in the mornin' (woo woo!) and the beheadings in the afternoon, leaving plenty of time to shuttle over to wherever Obama is at and take him out? Is that the way it's supposed to go? Or maybe spread it over a few days to give them time to gather momentum in the press. You remember all those times some gunmen went through a school, killed a bunch of people then snuck out the back and were never seen again. Maybe this is one of those times, except multiplied by four or five to get the largest mass murder up into the 80s. Yeah, don't forget to avoid the cops.
Frankly, I'm pretty sure the real scary people have better plans than this.
Can't we say that Palin's hateful rhetoric ordered them to do it?
Well, people do parrot what they hear, but that's not that far from blaming the Reptilian Overlords.
I'm sure there are more people planning the same thing, I just hope that they're caught as well. I'm just glad that most of the people with that much hate aren't very bright...
wynnstate, that sure looks like a H&K G3, yes.
Or one of countless similar weapons.
You're right about it being outdated, it is seriously heavy compared to their firepower. But on the other hand it is reliable and do pack quite a punch. It will easily shoot through cars and probably most forms of body armour, maybe even kevlar helmets.
I believe it is also quite easy to modify a semi-auto version to full auto, given how simple the mechanism is.
All this would make it a rather good weapon for attacking swarms of secret service agents, methinks.
That said, these guys are clearly idiots and should be locked up for their own good.
@#34, it's probably not a G3. A Cetme has a similar profile (based on the G3 design) and is much cheaper. Probably a Century Arms or Federal Arms de-mil. The rifle might be based on a 50's design but the 7.62x51mm NATO round beats what our troops in Iraq are packing. The Browning .50 caliber machine gun is 1918 technology and is still widely used by our military. Would you poo-poo that gun?
As for this "plot," it sounds more like a fantasy, thank goodness. If it was an actual plan, these two couldn't possibly have expected to succeed. Or survive the attempt. Choice of weapon aside, it's a pretty safe bet that Secret Service agents know how to use theirs better than these asshats.
For Jonathon @2,,, yes they will find their way to Gitmo,,,as guards.
For Jonathon @2,,, yes they will find their way to Gitmo,,,as guards.
OOOPS SOrry for Keith at 3
A few things:
Did the Columbine kids really have much of a "plot" lined out? What about the guy in Pennsylvania at the Amish school? If somebody has the weapons and discusses their murder plans with somebody else long enough to let the government find out about it, I'd say that's enough to bring them in. Obviously they wouldn't have been able to pull off all of what they were planning, but the Columbine kids never got around to hijacking that plane either. Just because the plan was ridiculous to complete doesn't mean they wouldn't have murdered anybody at the start.
[i]"You have comments in this thread advocating the rape, neutering and/or execution of human beings based on their philosophy, indended actions, race, and/or appearance.
Exactly like a couple of skinheads. I might not like them either, but I can see when the same degree of bigotry is being used to judge them."[/i]
It may be distasteful, but it's NOT the same degree of bigotry. People who plan to murder dozens of people (mostly children) have actually taken steps to cause people to wish harm on them. The men in this story, on the other hand, wish harm on people simply for their race and/or skin color. I agree that it's distasteful to advocate harm, but there are completely different motivations at work.
@54&55
I think you guys are right, its probably a cheaper derivative of the G3 rather than the the real thing. And it definitely would do some damage with one of those 7.62s flying downrange; that said, I think that scope is a little large for an assault rifle like that.
And no, I wouldn't poo-poo the M2, I just think that rifles have come a long way since the 50's whereas a stupid simple and reliabe mounted machine gun is pretty much the apex for that sort of thing.
I'm pretty sure the real scary people have better plans than this.
Not really. 1. Learn how to fly a piper cub. 2. Board modern passenger jet with box-cutters. 3. Fly into buildings. It worked out just fine for them. You can go a long way on fear and intimidation.
A few of you have called these guys terrorists. Are they really? Would their actions (including their death by Secret Service) spread terror within the USA?
Or are they merely Racist Criminals?
LOL, love that photo - "I'm the only white supremacist in the village"
NZRUSS if you don't think terror would be spread by these people, I guess you don't consider black people part of the USA?
(nor do you apparently consider the rest of us part of the USA - i.e. people of all races who understand how racist violence functions to intimidate black folks claiming their rights, and to intimidate those who support them)
in other words, duh. yes it would.
It seems Xeni and most of the commentators in this thread neglected to read to the end of the article. Allow me to assist:
“We honestly don’t know if they had the capability or the wherewithal to carry out the kind of plan that they talked about,” Malcolm Wiley, a spokesman for the Secret Service in Washington, said in an interview.
This was a pair of nutty teenagers, 18 and 20 years old. Not to say they weren't hateful and dangerous, but lets not blow anything out of proportion. Take a year of each of their ages, making them 17 and 19, and this isn't so much an actual threat as it is just a sad case of kids grown up in a world of hate.
I'm glad these two were caught before they could do harm, and I'm not naive enough to think it was an empty threat when they had weapons ready for the act. even if they failed, if they tried someone would have been likely to be hurt. I hope they stay in jail a very very long time.
@hometack, that's a rude and silly thing to say. Of course I read the news reports in entirety -- I blogged them, didn't I? Presumably, you consider the ATF and the federal agents who arrested them and took the threat risk seriously to be a bunch of fluffy sillyheads, too.
SISTER Y @32, & ZJMNA@53:
Well put. I would add that there was talk about this kind of possibility early on in his campaign, to which Obama said: "I've got the best security in the world" (meaning the secret service) "I'm not worried."
When you consider this, in addition to all the sundry troubles the last 8 years of kleptocracy have brought us, I think it truly illustrates the man's courage to be trying to unite us and lead us in these dark times, despite or because of the actions of a few extremists.
I've been watching a bunch of different youtube segments of Obama media stops throughout his campaign, appearing on Leno, Katie Couric, etc. and his personality always shines through. Sure he's not perfect, but I feel that for the first time since Jimmy Carter, we have a chance to elect a decent man to the Whitehouse. It took Nixon happening for us to bring a Carter in, and I think it took bush II for Obama to come in. If we can just hold steady for another week. And then let's bring out men & women in uniform back before some hostages get taken (again.)
HOMETACK@63: Did you read how Ashey Todd's hoax was originally being portrayed by the media? I saw the words "maimed" and "mutilated" used, and not just by Faux News. Should we blow that all out of proportion but just call these guys a couple of misguided kids? That's not quite right either, but actually, I agree that one act of blowing things out of proportion does not justify the other. "Terrorist" is a political label used all too often and too handily. Extremists and, if convicted, Hate Criminals would be much more apt.
Now if they had been in the employ of Blackwater, that would have been a different story.
Take a year of each of their ages, making them 17 and 19, and this isn't so much an actual threat as it is just a sad case of kids grown up in a world of hate.
Take a decade of each off their ages, and you'll see that they are just grade-school kids, unable of owning or much less using a high-powered scoped rifle.
Ergo, they are harmless.
In fact, take two decades off their ages, and they don't even exist! How could someone who doesn't exist possibly be a threat?
I'm glad there's at least one law-enforcement agency that is going after armed, murderous racists instead of stealing laptops from honest travellers.
That should have been "bring our men and women in uniform home..."
It might be getting too late for typing.
@29 (Noen): No, they're not Jewish. However, the secret international Jewish cabal that controls the world has a secret international conspiracy to make everyone think that they're Jewish. Unfortunately, they weren't content with just playing chess.
More seriously, I think that the plans for the school shooting and for the Obama assassination need to be separated. They were probably arrested mainly for the school shooting, which they were probably quite capable of at least partially carrying out. The Obama assassination seems more like a fantasy they came up with for what they would do after the shooting; it would make sense, as, being unstable and probably very immature teenagers, they would perhaps be unwilling to admit or face the almost inescapable conclusion that the school shooting would be their final act, and that it would do nothing to their cause except make it more hated and fought against. From the article I read, it seems that they planned to escape the school, then go on a highly visible nation-wide killing spree while evading all of the authorities, and then finally kill Obama. They were probably arrested mainly for their threat to the school, and the Obama matter is probably being brought up mainly because it makes for interesting news.
A completely bizarre and rather unhelpful analogy that popped into my mind is that the plan seems similar to that of a person who plans to demonstrate his supernatural flying ability by hijacking a plane, pushing everyone out of it so that his superiority can be demonstrated, and then flying around the nation like Superman on a nation-wide skeptic-shooting spree, culminating in the assassination of James Randi while doing airborne pirouettes. Such a person might be a very legitimate threat to the people he plans to kill in the plane, but Randi doesn't need to worry at all.
Reminds of the dangerous farce that was the DNC attempt.
It really seems like Obama is bringing out the amateurs, and more dangerous ones know better. I'd imagine more exposed members of the afro-american community would be at risk, more so than a well guarded, prominent, politician. Could you imagine the carnage though, as some of the rallies Obama holds are in the 10's of thousands.
Terrorist - Hate Criminal... it's a matter of degree and opinion and there is no finite dividing line. However radical religious terrorism is somewhat colour blind, while this was anything but.
For those that asked how far they got.
"but officials said the two men did acquire several rifles and cased a home and a gun store to rob as part of the plan."
Not quite picking up white tuxes, but by then it would have been a much more risky.
In other news, two tickets have suddenly become available for Palin's next rally.
Jesus dude. I can't watch this election for eight more days, that's what I can't do. Here's a handy article on coping with the stress: http://www.236.com/news/2008/10/27/eight_ways_to_survive_the_next_9828.php
Anonymous "Where do you GET A GUN THAT BIG?"
Answer: America. Obviously.
It's always disturbed me how they focus on the "...the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" part of the Second Amendment and not the "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State..." bit that precedes it. I'm not anti-gun, per say, but I'm not a gun fetishist, either. A big gun is a poor substitute for a tiny cock.
noen "There are jewish neo-nazis. It's a strange world."
Indeed. That must take a special kind of self-hating moxie. Maybe hutzpah.
wynnstate "Does he really think he can take on an army of secret service with an outdated rifle from the 50's?"
Can they run faster than a speeding bullet now? Or, to come at it from another angle, no, he does not think.
Phikus "I think it truly illustrates the man's (Obama's) courage to be trying to unite us and lead us in these dark times, despite or because of the actions of a few extremists."
Yeah. I'm suspicious too. What's in it for him, hmmm?
...
Is it just me, or are the people who say that "their" people are the superior ones almost inevitably mouthbreathers with eyes that are too close together who can barely string together a coherent sentence? Why are the guys who say that the "white race" is the apogee of mankind always wearing trucker hats, flip-flops, and wifebeaters covered in food stains? At least the 9/11 bombers, who thought that "their" group was the special one, were educated and fairly well to do.
In other words, how come our "superior" groups are all so stupid? How can America ever hope to truly be #1 with such a poor crop of supremacists?
KEVBO#72: Yeah, but they're Shouting-Racial-Epithet Section only.
MO@74: "Yeah. I'm suspicious too. What's in it for him, hmmm?"
Being the first black president and with the mess he's inheriting from two terms of the worst prez ever, my point was that it ain't gonna be a picnic. The guy's plainly not in it for the kickbacks, and I don't think he'll be parading through Dealey Plaza anytime while in office. So really there's not as much in it for him as there is for the rest of us in this country, if not the world.
Thoughts
1) When did neo-nazi's start wearing lipstick and eyeshadow while having art-school friends take semi-pro photos of them?
2) Can't the ATF at least get the gun model right??!!?? There is no such thing as a FASI .308... that is a FA91 in .308 and someone can't read.
3) Note the lack of a magazine, the finger on the trigger when NOT ready to fire, and the forward thumb held in a way very likely to burn if you get in the habit of that with most Evil Black Rifles.
4) Strange for a Hitler fanboi to choose the crappiest copy of a G3 ever made. Those rifles rapidly wear out as the junk aluminum receiver stretches.
5) Ok, so how were these wannabes who bailed out on a home invasion, supposedly, because the victims were (gasp!) at home ANY F'ING DANGER to Obama when they would have had to successfully murdered 104 OTHER people and pulled off a robbery of an open gunstore before donning their "white tuxedos and tophats"?
Also, I note that the statement of probable cause is so detailed that either a) someone was setting them up on this until they committed a crime (shooting a church window???!!! wtf) or b) someone was snooping their IM or had them bugged in some way.
Guys like this give skinheads a bad name.
:-b
How much snooping do you need when it's on their Myspace?
We all knew these sort of asshats were out there; props to Obama for sticking his head above the parapet.
It's not like BoingBoing to fall into the "fallacy of misleading vividness" the way The Daily Mail and Fox News do.
(http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/misleading-vividness.html)
Yes, there are pockets of hate and willful evil in America, from the backwaters to the highest offices, but the existence of these two people doesn't constitute a movement, nor does their demented dreaming make an outbreak of "terrorism" more likely today than yesterday. There will always be rogue lunatics, but what's striking is that these individuals represent TWO people out of three million who DON'T ever contemplate breaking the social compact this way.
Paying attention to these people lends hysterical energy and credence to thoughts that should be ignored, squelched, buried wherever possible. (Or studied by those who can address the root causes, which shrill headlines will never do.)
As Beat poet Diane DiPrima said, "Is the assault on native intelligence & good will that we call the evening news anything other than an act of terror?" Fixating on people like this contributes to the false terror epidemic infecting our mental ecology -- even when the attempt is to underscore the dangers of the extreme right.
Hey Xeni... Just curious, but what the hell happened to my comment #1?
http://politicomix.blogspot.com/2008/10/beheaders.html
....these guys are not skin heads, not in any way shape or form.
They have nothing to do with skinhead, skin head has NOTHING to do with them.
They are what skinheads call boneheads, idiots who appropriated skinhead look but are just mouth breathing knuckle walking clowns wrapped up in some nazi wank fantasy.
Once again it has to be pointed out that the original skin heads were BLACK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqEJK0ZspkQ
the guys in the YT clip are skins, true blue ska'd for life moonstomping skinheads.
Also if you are going to go on a killing spree would it not make sense to go for the main target first thus by mainting the element of surprise?
Like I said the guys in the article are simpletons.
@MichaelIRN, I think they have sort of a "Clockwork Cracker" thing going.
I loathe these guys as much as the next person, but can we leave racial epithets of any sort out of the discussion?
Will somebody explain the white tuxedos and top hats part?
h ns! Prtty lpstck mn hs pnty gn!
Prhps wht h lrns bng smn's btch n prsn wll prpr hm t hlp Mx Msly n hs lttl knky gms.
Myb prtty lpstck by cn b v Brn, nd Mx cn b Hrr Fhrr, nd mk swt nz lv.
dts.
Oh Lord, another case solved by the F-Troop! Thank goodness the BATFE (yes, 5 letters) has such a sterling reputation and NEVER falsifies evidence to get convictions. Furthermore, they NEVER get caught falsifying said evidence.
"drive their vehicle as fast as they could toward Obama shooting at him from the windows"???
Yes, briliant plan for an assassination attempt! Oh noes, any stupid person is now a terrorist!
Antinous-
Have you failed to notice that school shootings are a rather common occurrence these days? The resources required are minimal and it's quite easy to kill dozens in a matter of minutes. What is it exactly about the word plot that is not fulfilled by motive, weapons and simple opportunity?
I have failed to notice that school shootings are "a rather common occurence" these days. Because they aren't common. They're incredibly rare events.
It's not "quite easy to kill dozens in a matter of minutes". Theoretically it's easy, but in practice, even in the "common" school shootings that you're referencing, killers rarely succeed in killing a great number of people, despite their intentions. If you think killing piles of people is easy, then you've been playing too many FPS games.
The opportunity or desire to carry out an action does not equal a plot. Based upon that kind of standard, it's not hard to imagine rounding up tons of innocent people because of a combination "loose talk" and presumed "opportunity".
A plot really has to be something that's well planned and reasonably plausible. There's nothing in the news report about this incident or the earlier one during the campaign that gives me any impression that those arrested were really in any real position to carry out their actions.
@#63 (RIPLEY):
"NZRUSS if you don't think terror would be spread by these people, I guess you don't consider black people part of the USA?"
NZRUSS asked if it would "spread terror within the USA." It would spread terror within the limited geographical area in which it happened, for as long as it happened. A concrete example: The Beltway snipers shot people indiscriminately. Black men, white women, children, an Indian man, a Hispanic woman... So basically their targets were people of all kinds.
I'm a people, but not being in the immediate area, I wasn't terrified in the least. Had I lived in the DC area and driven the beltway regularly, I may have been. But I don't think anyone outside that region had any justifiable fear.
In order for an attack like the one under discussion here to spread terror within the USA, it would have to happen in multiple widely distributed locations within a relatively short time. Then it could definitely be construed as an attempt to terrify a population.
Nobody is terrified of two dead nutjobs, which is what these guys would have been in very short order had they attempted what they had discussed.
The question of whether this was a serious plot or a nutjob fantasy aside, I have to think that the idea of an Obama candidacy/presidency probably rates as the all-time biggest headache evar for the Secret Service. Seriously.
I'm sure they've done some sort of theoretical studies on the security needs for a potential candidacy by a black individual, but I also have to think a lot of them always hoped it would never happen, knowing just what sort of nutjobs such a candidacy/presidency will enrage.
What subculture is he meant to be? Is he a juggalo or some kind of emo/goth hybrid or something else?
Schlesselman's MySpace page is entitled, "I'll slap you with my balls". No, I'm not making that up.
I just love threads like these;They allow the boing ninjas to come out and show how much THEY know about weapons and armaments.Can't we all agree guns are not big or clever?
#93 - but we have to PROTECT OUR FAMILIES from the OTHER people with guns. Because, you see, it's my right to have a gun... to stop people who have guns because it's their right...
It's like, if there are people out there keeping ferocious, angry leopards, then I want one in my house, so I can be safe from them...
...look, look. Guns are too cool to be understood by you people and your fancy words.
It's about safety, folks. We should all have devices designed for killing, so we can all be safe.
@88, Marshall, not meaning to intrude on your post to Antinous, but I think you're wrong to characterize school shootings as "incredibly rare events". Just this week another shooting occurred in Arkansas. I won't say they're common, but they are on the rise and becoming more so.
There is definitely an increase in gun threats at schools, foiled shooting plots, and successful ones.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=&q=school+shooting&btnG=Search+News
I also disagree that a "plot" has to be well reasoned. A plot is nothing more than premeditation. The Columbine kids had a manifesto, but that's the "rare" case I think you're referring to. There are no rules to here to say what a plot can or cannot have or how "well planned and reasonably plausible" it has to be.
It is not a screenwriting class.
If we outlaw ferocious, angry leopards, then only outlaws will have ferocious, angry leopards.
@21 et. al. "Is he wearing makeup!?"
It rubs the lotion on it's skin, precious.
freshyill,
I stripped all the gleeful references to prison rape in this thread.
@94,
"but we have to PROTECT OUR FAMILIES from the OTHER people with guns. Because, you see, it's my right to have a gun... to stop people who have guns because it's their right..."
That's a bit of a generalization about a group that has widely divergent reasons for owning guns. I'll use myself as an example. I have a rifle much like the one in the picture, but without the scope. I take it to a gravel pit a couple of times a year and shoot targets. The other 363 days of the year, it is locked in a safe in the basement and the ammunition is kept elsewhere. I couldn't use it for protection if I tried, so obviously that isn't my reason for owning it. I also have a 9mm handgun that is locked in the safe, and 99% of the time I have no ammunition for it at all, so that one obviously isn't for my protection either.
Some people simply like to see how close to the center of a circle they can shoot, just like some people like to see how close to a hole in the ground they can hit a ball with a stick, or others like to see how accurately they can roll a ball toward ten pins standing on a wooden floor.
That said, where I live (eastern Maine), the main reason for owning guns is that some people like to eat venison, moose, or wild turkey. To some families, it makes the difference between eating well over the winter or not.
Why is it that the most uneducated and idiotic people make claims of being "superior"?
I mean, really. . . "white tuxedos?!!"
Clearly the plan wasn't foolproof, and these fools are the proof.
Please keep the gun comments close to the subject of the post.
Oh,I see...."you people"!
Wow. There's some soupy thinking going on here.
Weapons, motive and opportunity don't make for a credible plot? What do you require? An underground hide-out replete with shark tank and death rays? Most serial killers and mass murderers manage quite well with a gun or two and whatever they have already hanging around the house.
This story is just trying to whip up hysteria without any real cause? I see what you did there. You tried to conflate two white supremacists with weapons and a statement of intent with the TSA. It didn't work. If you can't tell the difference between the credible threat presented here and government FUD, put me in your will, because you don't have enough common sense to live.
the people that claim 'supiority' due to their percieved 'whiteness' always seem to be a complete embarassment to our species as a whole( white black yellow red brown green blue whatever). every time i see one of these bozos on the news it makes me wanna hurl.
The moral of the story is: should you plot murder and mayhem, make sure to throw a few absurd details into your plot. That way, if you get caught, they might not take it seriously and you may walk free.
If I decide to assassinate someone, I'm going to do it in a gorilla suit. Whilst riding a unicycle. Backwards.
@#77 Thebes:
Well spotted - I think you're right. I can see the 'skateboard tape' finish on the receiver.
From what I gather from a quick googling, the FA91 has a reputation as a second-rate knock-off of the H&K G3 series. Which is why the hillbilly can afford it.
Antinous 98: I stripped all the gleeful references to prison rape in this thread.
Thank you. I'll propose that as an addition to the BBMP.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/oct/28/neo-nazi-obama-assassination
hpflly thy wll g t th pnd m n th ss prsn...nd gt pndd dly by thr ryn brthrs...
Random thoughts: I'm glad someone else pointed out how "skinhead" has become tainted from the original culture. A really good movie about the skin culture is "This Is England." It shows events from around the time that skinheads first started becoming associated with racism, and the true skins' dismay and anger at being associated with "boneheads" (love that term).
I was horrified when I heard about these guys on the radio, as I think any right-minded human being would be. Yet, the cynical part of me said, "how long will it take for someone to claim these guys were just Republican shills?"
Waldo Jaquith @21:
Yes. Badly. The heavy black liner around his eyes overpowers his features, and the bluish-gray eyeshadow is not becoming, especially given his lack of foundation and blusher. The cerise lipstick is his worst mistake. He should chuck the eyeliner, and go for sable-brown mascara and a peachy transparent lip gloss.Cupcake Faerie @23, if they aren't people, they aren't at fault. Human values apply only to humans.
Anonymous @24: you can get guns that big in lots of places. You can get bigger ones, too. I've fired some. None of them had enough spare room in them to hold a set of brains to replace Daniel Cowart's non-functional set.
Anonymous @27, the people who taught them to hate are at fault, but when the kids in question are 19 and 20, they're responsible too. Besides, lots of kids grow up in the same circumstances without turning into violent fuggheads.
WeightedCompanionCube @31: Yup. And you've known for a long time that that's one of the techniques we sometimes use as moderators. What's your point?
Wynnstate @34:
Nope. No rifle made is appropriate for their plan. It's an unworkable scheme.Yes. He's wrong, of course; but the fact that he's bound to fail doesn't mean he can't do a lot of damage along the way.Marshall @37, I'll say the same to you: just because they were bound to fail doesn't mean they couldn't have done a lot of damage.
Secret Life of Plants @41, of course Palin's hateful rhetoric gets taken as permission to behave badly. There are always people out there who are listening for that permission. They don't really care about the larger meanings; they just want to be told who they can hate, and when it's okay to go smash their shop windows. Have you been noticing how much of their rhetoric is about wanting whole classes of Americans to somehow just disappear?
What we can't say is that these guys were ordered to plot mass shootings and assassination. It's always their choice.
WeightedCompanionCube @45: not exactly like a couple of skinheads, not the same degree of bigotry, and this discussion is not an excuse for you to berate Antinous. Furthermore, if you throw a hissy fit, what will happen is that you'll get made fun of, in our usual gentle fashion.
MichaelRN @49:
I'll bet they were aiming for "the classiest possible outfits," and white tuxedoes were all they could come up with. You can tell that they have no real experience with formalwear -- it didn't occur to them that you can't wear a top hat in a car.Their plans are what you'd expect from a couple of guys who are so dim that it's never occurred to them that no bullet ever made travels faster than a phone call to guys waiting for you on up the road.
The really scary people know better than to make stupid plans.
Spazzm @54:
Are you kidding? A good weapon for attacking swarms of secret service agents is one that nails all of them in one go while you're out of range, they're pointlessly clustered in one undefended spot, and they don't yet know they're being attacked. Trouble is, a weapon that can do that is bound to attract attention. Next thing you know, someone's phoned for backups, and backups for the backups, and the whole operation goes to hell.There is no appropriate weapon for an unworkable plan.
Uncle Max @58, I think I like you.
NZRuss @61, they're terrorists. The point of their plan wasn't the first-order effects of killing 102 people; it was the second-order emotional impact of the murders.
Ripley @63, NZRuss didn't have that coming.
Hometack @64, grown boys with high-powered rifles and a plan to shoot up a school are a threat.
ModusOperandi @74: People who had something better to brag about wouldn't have to make a big deal out of their ancestry.
Hamish Macdonald @80, I don't know about you, but I prefer to know what's out there. I realize violence-worshipping idiots like Daniel Cowart and Paul Schlesselman are a sort of animated low-probability event, but I feel that it improves my world map to know that people like them can happen.
Error404 @83, that's useful information. Thank you.
BakCompat @87, please react to the facts, not to your preexisting opinion of the BATF.
Hassan-i-Sabbah @93: I think we can agree that make and model of gun isn't the primary issue.
CinemaJay @95: You're right. School shootings and bombings aren't incredibly rare events.
TNH, your makeup comments were the funniest thing I've read all week, but the underlying idea is sound: why *don't* they have the right to wear makeup? That only women shall wear makeup is a mere social construction, and if you're willing to discard more significant social constructions (that no man shall behead lots of people only because of their skin colour, or more significantly that no man shall wear white tuxedos), why wouldn't you be willing to discard this minor one too?
I want a ferocious, angry leopard.
--Charlie