Meet Sarah Palin’s radical right-wing pals
(Video: Interview with former Alaskan Independence Party chairman Mark Chryson)
Esther Kaplan, Investigative Editor for The Nation Institute, says:
While the McCain camp continues to hammer home Barack Obama's ties to a former '60s radical, the press corps has yet to report on how far-reaching Sarah Palin's ties are to contemporary radicals -- specifically, the paranoid anti-government figures behind the Alaskan Independence Party. Reporters Max Blumenthal and David Neiwert found that AIP activists played a critical role in Palin's election as Wasilla mayor and that Palin in turn sought to reward them with plum political appointments and appearances, as recently as this year, at AIP conventions.Meet Sarah Palin’s radical right-wing palsTheir story, "Meet Sarah Palin's Radical Right-Wing Pals," below, was supported by a research grant from the Investigative Fund at The Nation Institute and appeared this morning at Salon.com.
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Funny how it took this long for the entire machinery of the press to locate one of these folks and exhibit this aspect of her political career.
Or would this get in the way of investigating Obama's birth certificate?
He seems fairly sane for the most part, I just don't agree that "family values" should be legislated and the whole "Adam and Steve" thing is just so cliched.
I don't agree with this guy but, quite frankly, this rather puts this certainly lessens the importance of this issue in my eyes. This certainly isn't the wild-eyed psychopath I'd been expecting. Perhaps THAT is why the mainstream media hasn't been covering this story.
Putting aside any relationship with this group and Palin, I wonder how many people have thought about the idea of secession, especially with regard to a federal government created out of the consensual union of States in the first place. Take any volatile two-party emotional partisanship out of the discussion, pretend Nader was a member of the group if it helps, but think about the nature of the Constitution (a document to restrict federal power) and the idea of a State deciding to leave. What is so crazy about that?
Would you say this is objectively worse than a group that commits violence against civilians?
It's not crazy, you're right. I wish they would leave. Palin can be their first President. Or what would the "leader" of a nation that eschews leadership be called, exactly?
Excuse me, how is this guy comparable to convicted criminals? You may agree or disagree with his views, you may call him "paranoid anti-government figure" (brrr... I'm so scared...) but to compare him with individuals who committed violent acts is to lose perspective completely. Not surprising coming from The Nation but disappointing coming from BB.
I dunno, he seems like a pretty decent guy, just don't make and loud noises or sudden moves around him... Mostly harmless.
For reals though, Palin/McCain scare me much much more, they're "radicals" with power.
This guy is a non-issue. I firmly disagree with his view of the world, but it doesn't make him a nutjob. If anything, he gets kudos for thinking the same thing: that we can yell at each other all we want if we disagree, and that no violence needs to arise from it.
Sorry, but this is as empty as the Obama-Ayers connection. If anything, this guy is a more articulate, consistent right-wing guy than the average depicted in the media.
Nov. 5th cannot get here soon enough. The sooner Palin is sent packing back to Alaska, the better.
This guy seems reasonably sane and well-spoken, even if I disagree with his views. But I'm sure that present-day college professor Bill Ayers is at least as articulate, and he doesn't still belong to the group that made him infamous.
#7 - Quite honestly? This guy is better spoken and comes off as more thoughtful than most of the loudmouth right wing pundits. Yes, he's not exactly eloquent but he's a heck of a lot more people friendly than say... Rush.
Somebody give this man a job. I mean, a kinder, gentler right-winger on television would SO be appreciated, even if I do disagree with his views.
More of an automaton than a revolutionary. He just repeats things that he's memorized.
The guy that first headed this "party" is dead from playing with plastic explosives. 30 states are not looking to leave the US. What kind of armory he has at home? Evidently having a bazooka is OK. Abraham Lincoln was wrong for keeping the Union together? How much more whacko does he need to get?
And now meet the morons who ignore reality, facts, common sense, and still want to vote for McCain/Palin. They are called Republicans. Bushed worked out so well that they are back for more!
Art VanDelay
I was unaware that the AIP had set off any bombs or hurt any police officers. Bill Ayers co-founded the Weathermen, and his girlfriend, Diana Oughton, died in a bomb-making accident.
I think there is a slight difference between the Weathermen and the AIP's methods.
another backdoor affirmation of the Ayers libel.
Let's see...Ayers actions were in 1968. 40 years ago.
Palin spoke to the AIP in March 08. This year. 7 months ago.
You do the math.
Sometimes I think there will be a third "country" formed by a certain northwestern ideology -- Alaska, Alberta, Yukon and northern BC would strand the poor coastal hippies ;) so I guess they'd have to join Washington State!
I guess it may not matter to anyone else, but when you say Bill Ayers was part of a group which committed "violent acts", remember that the Weather Underground never harmed a single person in any of their actions, and went to great lengths to make sure of that, even when it put them at greater risk themselves.
Terrorism, maybe. But of a very different kind than we think of today.
I also agree that secession is a perfectly reasonable and probably healthy thing for religious fundamentalists and other fringe groups to pursue. If they want to live in repressive religious communities and govern themselves, they should absolutely be able to do so without interference - as long as their members are free to leave those communities. Same rules you'd expect of any nation, really.
As long as they afford us the same freedom to pursue our ungodly ways in America, I don't see anything crazy about that. However, it is fairly reasonable to be "paranoid" if you're involved in a fairly large organization which explicitly opposes the federal government. The feds don't take that kind of thing kindly.
Logically, the AIP isn't that big a deal and it's good for Alaskan politics to have such a minority party. Many of us here are sympathetic to their views.
Emotionally, you absolutely cannot get more unamerican than secession. It would be impossible if you tried. Secession is equivalent to treason. The last time we had secessionists, we had the Civil War. Do you doubt that a Bush administration would have sent federal troops to Alaska to prevent a secession?
The founder of the AIP wasn't just a secessionist -- he was killed in a murder over a plastic explosives deal gone wrong. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CE3DB153CF936A25753C1A962958260
Art,
Your link can go on your profile page. Thanks.
Well, Wigwam, if Barack Obama had given the welcome speech at the Weather Underground Organization's annual convention, that might be a meaningful point. Obama served on a charity board with a former member of a long-dead organization. Palin gave direct political support to an active organization.
People want to compare this AIP guy's ideals, style, etc. to that of Bill Ayers. In doing so, they feel he's the lesser of two evils because he didn't "blow" anything up.
The point is the Palin's have strong ties (current ties) with the AIP. Obama was a child when Ayers and his 'cohorts' had an extremely bad lapse in judgment. How can their affiliations be viewed as the same. And to be perfectly honest...what damn difference does it make?
One thing I differ with the guy on the video about is good ole Abe Lincoln's decision to keep this Union a "union". If that hadn't happened perhaps slavery would still be legal and I'd be up shit creek!
@ #17 zikzak
I don't think that's correct, actually. They were believed to have set off the 1970 bombing of San Francisco's Park Station PD. Several police officers were killed.
In addition, Bill Ayers and his wife personally apologized (according to a newspaper report) to someone who was hurt by a bomb they set off - they may not have meant to hurt that person, but they did - or they would not have apologized. Oh, and they apologized in 2001, when Bill's book was being published.
I was unaware of the gentle form of terrorism. Pardon me, I don't see a lot of difference between terrorists with a heart and terrorists without one.
I would also take issue with secessionists, and if they foment revolution, they should be arrested. "The union of the states is perpetual." I believe Abraham Lincoln said that. Too many have died for that to not matter anymore.
However, the AIP does not seem to have engaged in terrorism of any kind. I still don't see the parallel - unless the word 'radical' is really the tie-in. To me, there is kind of a difference between radicals who set off bombs and those who don't.
so Palin associates with treasonous separatists bent on the destruction of the United States by violent means including terrorist bombs like the obtaining of which killed their criminal leader in a fracas with a convicted thief? Sounds McCainish.
@ #18 kevin143
He was murdered, if that's what you mean, and buried in a shallow grave. When his murderer was caught, the killer claimed he had killed the man over a 'plastics explosives' deal gone wrong. No proof of that - no explosives, no arrests for that, no background of the AIP using violence.
Vogler was 80 years old when murdered - and had lived a law-abiding life.
Terrorist? I'm thinking not. His biggest crime appears to be that he did not like being an American citizen, and didn't want to be buried under a US flag.
Wigwam,
Are you being deliberately obtuse? What part of the AIP founder's death in a plastic explosives deal are you not getting?
Hawaii will go first,they will get a better deal from Asia. Alaska next. The miscellaneous protectorates will want to stay but be shed as too expensive to keep. The mainland states will fragment into resource oriented alliances (water trumps politics). A Spanish speaking nation will incorporate. Isolated pockets of extreme privilege sustained by expensive mercenary armies and the residue of the sold-off military's more durable arms will scratch out a living here and there.
@ #25 Antinous
The part where there is any proof that such a 'deal' ever existed at all. The man arrested for murdering Vogler asserted that, this is true. There were no plastic explosives recovered. The man who murdered Vogler was charged with murder - not criminal possession or sale of plastic explosives. The AIP has no history of criminal activity, and Vogler was 80 years old with no criminal history. Well, he did have one arrest - he was arrested for taking his mining equipment off a marked trail, which is forbidden.
I think it takes more than an assertion by a confessed murderer to make his statement true.
I don't think that's being obtuse. I think that's just looking at the facts that are available.
I will say that my opinion is not necessarily right, and yours isn't necessarily wrong. But I think it needs more evidence before it becomes believable.
I don't think Joe Vogler was a terrorist or a bomber. I think he was an 80 year-old right-wing crank. Icky, but not terroristic.
so where is the carefulness to dismiss the Ayers slander against Obama?
Don't forget Sarah Palin was born in Sandpoint, Idaho - not far from Hayden Lake, the hotbed of right wing, home grown terrorist activities of The Aryan Nations,the Christian Identity Movement and neo-Nazis like Richard Butler. I'd be much more interested to hear if such a connection existed. Does one? These AIP types seem a bit gentler - though I'd still conjecture they don't like black people.
I don't fault him for not wanting to be part of the United States. I'm surprised more people aren't interested in secession.
I'd hardly call Farrakhan Obama's Pal. Indeed, other than a false rumor that Obama was planning to give Farrakhan a cabinet position I haven't seen much from Obama that even would imply such a thing.
@ #28 Takuan
I think the attempt by the McCain-Palin campaign to tie Obama to Ayer's previous life as a terrorist is reprehensible. It disgusts me.
Okay, Wigwam -- you are ignoring the fact that the founding AIP leader got blown up when building a bomb. What does that mean? It means they haven't committed your "bomb-level" criteria yet, but it sounds like they are certainly TRYING.
Second -- I'm so over people going back to extreme times and then being all appalled in the present. Joining the socialist party in the 1930s didn't mean you were a bad evil person bent on communism, it meant that you were genuinely trying to find a solution for a country in peril. Even our esteemed leader went a little socialistic during those dark days (not unlike our current leader is doing now). Ohhh, "socialism" ohhh scary. Get over it. Pure capitalism is purely fantasy. Pure socialism has not seemed to work (and I hate the old chestnut -- "but's it never really been done right!" -- maybe because that's impossible) ... but, because of this, a jackass named McCarthy in the 50s was able to go and ruin people's lives by comparing a relatively sane act in the 1930s to supporting our biggest and baddest enemy in the present. Lame. Oh, and not to mention that the socialist party in the 30s had this strange belief that black people actually deserved equal rights! As opposed to the law of the United States at that time! Crazy, huh? That's why many people joined, and then they find out in the 50s that there joining means their PRESENTLY in league with Stalin.
So now we come to the same tactic. The 60s were freaking radical. Cops were killing demonstrators and not just Kent State. Should we bring that up every time we mention an authority figure from that era in the present? The right creams itself showing a picture of John Kerry being un-proud of his country in a time where that was a VERY strong sentiment, and now in our BLIND-PATRIOTISM moment he's suddenly a bad guy. 30 years ago.
Now it's 40 years ago, and we say that radical groups like the Weatherman are just like Al Queda, all the same. This from the same people who really think we need to draw lines and have distinctions when it comes to something they want to limit (pornography). There ARE different levels of terrorism, and EVEN the law addresses such. Ride by a guy's store and throw a brick -- you get a different penalty than blowing up 4 buildings with lots of people in them. Sorry. RULE OF LAW!! RULE OF LAW!!
Anyway, last time I checked -- Ayres served his time, and has become productive members of society -- but hey, let's punish forever! Cause it's all about the punishment, not actually having someone contribute to society, pay their taxes, etc.
As far as the "so-called" police murder, a preliminary investigation by a VERY motivated political part of the Justice Department is now equated with them TRULY murdering a police officer. Do you want play the 40 years ago game? Then let's say that the FBI should never be forgiven and always punished for it's documented program that wrongly incarcerated Geronimo Pratt? Or, do we say those were radical times and it's 40 years later. How about the many right-wingers (Henry Ford, etc.) who believed in anti-semiticism and supported Hitler before WWII? Why wasn't their a house un-american committee for them in the 1950s?
IN THE PRESENT, Obama met with someone who pays his taxes and is a university professor. IN THE PRESENT. Try living in it, it does wonders for one ... and in the PRESENT, Ms. Palin has more connections than she'd like to admit to a radical (I didn't say "terrorist") party that advocates TREASON! Unlike Ann Coultier's slip-shod definition of treason, this is the real thing. Rule of Law! It's called TREASON! Maybe there's no bomb there now, but do you think they are going to leave the union peacefully? Or will they fight like the "terrorists" in the Confederacy did?
The man arrested for murdering Vogler asserted that, this is true.
So the burden of proof always goes in one political direction for you. How tidy and self-referential.
I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that's not a truthful statement.
Vogler died of a bullet in the back of the head. It was put there by a previously-convicted thief who eventually confessed to killing Vogler "over a plastic explosives deal gone bad," after he burned down his own house while hiding from the police. Sound like a real believable guy? I notice he wasn't charged with illegal possession of plastics explosives, there were no plastic explosives seized, the only thing we have is a statement by a felon - who pleaded 'no contest' to murdering Vogler.
So I'm not ignoring any facts, unless you have information the rest of the world doesn't seem to.
I think you may be thinking of Ayers - his girlfriend died making a bomb, and one of his fellow co-founders of the Weather Underground also died making a bomb. Vogler? No bombs.
You know, I hate McCain/Palin as much as the next person, but this video really isn't of a lunatic. If he -is- a lunatic, he's hiding it remarkably well. Personally, about the only thing I disagree with him about is his homophobia. As for secession, what kind of "union" isn't voluntary?
On the other hand, I feel like the weather underground were justified in their actions. The world isn't as black and white as anyone involved in mainstream politics says.
@ #34 Antinous
Ayers wrote a book stating that he helped plan and plant bombs. His girlfriend at the time and fellow co-founder both blew themselves up with bombs they were making. That's pretty easy to believe, since even Ayers says that's what happened.
Vogler ran for Governor, over and over, and formed a secessionist group, and said how much he hated the USA. When he was murdered, the guy who admitted doing it says it was over plastic explosives. He didn't even assert what the plastic explosives were for. AIP hasn't set off any bombs, they've just run for public office. Weather Underground never ran for public office, they just set off bombs - they their own admission.
I don't think I'm being partisan here. This is pretty straightforward stuff. And I've said that I do not think Obama has anything to do with Ayer's previous terrorist activity, and I deplore that the McCain-Palin campaign has tried to make that connection. That's not very convenient for me, it's painful.
I've got plenty of complaints about this country, hell, many times I wish I could leave it, but anyone that would see it torn apart is a traitor to those who gave their lives to preserve this Union. This country is alive with all manner of traitors, we must not let them win. We must dedicate ourselves to returning this country to the ideals of Jefferson and Franklin. And yes, I'm aware of Jefferson's Sally, etc. so, don't fuk with me on this, you know what I mean.
-------------
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that "all men are created equal"
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of it, as a final resting place for those who died here, that the nation might live. This we may, in all propriety do. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow, this ground-- The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have hallowed it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here; while it can never forget what they did here.
It is rather for us, the living, to stand here, we here be dedica-ted to the great task remaining before us -- that, from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here, gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve these dead shall not have died in vain; that the nation, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people by the people for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Abraham Lincoln, Draft of the Gettysburg Address: Nicolay Copy. Transcribed and annotated by the Lincoln Studies Center, Knox College, Galesburg, Illinois. Available at Abraham Lincoln Papers at the Library of Congress, Manuscript Division (Washington, D.C.: American Memory Project, [2000-02]),
#12 mikelotus:
I back Barack, but I disagree with your characterization of what's whacko.
The Bill of Rights of the US says "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed". I believe in rule of law. I may believe that it's wrong to let any nut go buy a bazooka, but I believe more strongly that if it's the law, that's what we should do. If you don't like the law, change it. We need to amend the 4th amendment.
Likewise, the union originated as a way for the many states to defend themselves from the English government from which they seceded. I think Lincoln should have let the south secede, then gone to war with them over their treatment of blacks. Unless, of course, the south was willing to let every black person who wanted to go north and become free do so.
I waffle a little on the latter point because it's so very impractical, but it really seems like a profound betrayal of the principles the US was founded on to use military force to prevent a body of people from governing themselves as they see fit.
Er, 2nd amendment.
Sorry, I used http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm to fact check, and it's written oddly.
"Vogler was murdered in 1993 during an illegal sale of plastic explosives that went bad. The prior year, he had renounced his allegiance to the United States explaining that, "The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government." He cursed the stars and stripes, promising, "I won't be buried under their damned flag...when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home." Palin has never denounced Vogler or his detestable anti-Americanism.
Palin's husband Todd remained an AIP party member from 1995 to 2002. Sarah can be described in McCarthy-era palaver as a "fellow traveler." While retaining her Republican registration, she attended the AIP's 1994 convention where the party called for a draft constitution to secede from the United States and create an independent nation of Alaska. The McCain Campaign has reluctantly acknowledged that she also attended AIP's 2000 Convention. She apparently found the experience so inspiring that she agreed to give a keynote address at the AIP's 2006 convention and she recorded a video greeting for this year's 2008 convention. In other words, this is not something that happened when she was eight!"
@ #39 wurp
It's the Second Amendment, and no one can buy a bazooka, even with it. Nor machine guns or hand grenades.
Lincoln said "The union of the states is perpetual" and we laid down 600,000+ lives, north and south, to establish that. I don't think I'd want to change that now and let states come and go as they please, although I am otherwise in favor of State's Rights.
If you want to compare terrorist friends between the candidate, McCain's Ayers is G. Gordon Liddy.
I think somebody should go to all the McCain/Palin rallies and start a data file on each of the participants. They've proven themselves to be radical and hateful in speech, and have threatened violence, so it is important that their future actions and movements be surveilled and their phones and computers tapped. That way we'll be able to track their moves, and possibly round up the most dangerous ones after the election. And lock them up in the Ted Stevens Federal Pen.
Wigwam,
I think that we've all gotten your point. If you don't have anything new to add...
techNmore,
Your link goes on your profile page. Thanks.
If you want to compare terrorist friends between the candidate
If we're talking about people who are trying to undermine the constitution...hmm, whom does that make me think of?
Also, everyone, please keep the firearms comments related to the topic at hand, which, if you're having a hard time focusing, is secessionist groups.
Wigman, once again you're wrong, IIRC, a Class 3 license allows for the purchase of full-auto weapons.
Ths cmmnt systm s fr th brds. Y gys shld rlly try t pll n /. r vn (shddr) dgg styl cmmnt ngn t vd hvng mdrtrs thrwng thr wght rnd ll th tm.
Ys, 'm wr ths cmmnt blngs n th mdrtn thrd, bt dn't s ny wy t fnd th mdrtn thrd.
:-(
wurp,
There's a link to the Mod Policy on every page. If you can't bother to look for it, don't complain about it.
Fuck me.
Stll wth th Pln?
@ #48 FoetusNail
You're right. I had an FFL Dealer license for a number of years, some decades ago. Class III permits are very hard to come by and terribly expensive for the weapons. The general public can't just go into a gun shop and buy one. Seemed like a lot to add for a small point, so I left it out. Mea culpa.
Wurp @ 49 - Top right, under the ads, bottom of 'Don't Miss'
pro secession = possibly rationale
pro palin = undeniabaly insane
vry dsppntng bngbng (mrk). cnsdrd ths st mr ntllgnt thn ths pst mpls.
thr thn ths gy's ntlrnc fr hms, h's prtty mch gt th fndmntls tht fndd ths cntry nd llwd t t lv fr 232 yrs, vn whl bng strngld fr th lst ~100.
m sd t sy wll vst lss. wll ls stp sch cnsdrbl prmtn f yr st.
ths gy s nt rdcl. h's jst nt sclst.
"homos" ? I can hear the way you say that right through the innertubes. Somehow I think your "disappointment" unimportant.
Homos, uh? You probably also have a lot of respect for that n----r.
That people think this guy sounds reasonable is laughable. The reasonably smart ones, always sound reasonable until they get what they want. After that all bets are off.
What is this guys objective? They've got to know they will never secede from the Union. So, what is the point of the AIP. This guy is a power hungry con-man who makes a living off of the dummies, and gets to tell everyone he knows the Governor.
The next question is why does Palin hang out with this guy. She hangs out and lends her support because he contributes money and votes from said dummies.
Palin hanging out with a traitor proves she is either a traitorous lier or an opportunistic, pandering lier who will say and do anything to get elected.
Wigwam, I would like to thank you for raising the level of discourse. While it may sometimes be useful to use less than intellectually legitimate tactics to sway public opinion in larger venues, I think that keeping the debate here on BB logic driven, fact based, and calm, benefits us all. .
I move that all baseless speculation and conjecture be labeled as such by those who post it. As such,
Baseless speculation:
While this guy is pretty obviously not a dangerous radical, I would bet a fair amount of money that he is a big-time conspiracy theorist regarding the US government. Listen to the way he talks about the dollar bill, I bet he has some pretty interesting things to say about the Masons.
ethics committee finds Palin guilty
Let's see, he thought the South should have been allowed to secede (in other words keep their slaves), is against gay marriage for religious reasons so I'd assume is against homosexuality in general, thinks the right to bear arms is still applicable today as far as national security and wants to secede from the U.S. So yeah, besides being a racist, gay hating, paranoid, lunatic, he is an OK guy because he has a calm demeanor and doesn't openly advocate killing anybody!! If Sarah Palin doesn't share those extreme, radical views it certainly didn't offend her much since she married someone who does. Kind of scary when you think about it.
How come all I get to see is the commercial for elephant dancer insurance over and over again with no payoff?
"the paranoid anti-government figures"? Huh? I don't see that. I see a kook maybe but isn't that what the USA is all about? Isn't it there in Amendment One of your Constitution? To wit - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Yes he's into guns. But so are millions of other Americans. And obviously anti-gay. Ditto for that.
And again "radical right-wing pals"? Where? I don't see one here. This is a beat-up.
Eh, he sounded pretty much like any other conservative Alaskan to me, not that that really means anything. I really agreed with what he said at the end about how his ideas don't necessarily reflect Palin's... seems like more people should realise that.
What I really want to know is why nobody outside of Alaska knows about pebble mine? It's seems like a Canadian company attempting to come into Alaska and mine $200 billion in copper and gold should attract some press?
What about her words concerning AIP, as late as this years convention, "Keep up the good work, and god bless you"? Roll the tape.
I pretty much agree with everything #37 Magpiekilljoy said above.
For those who think this guy is "mostly harmless" that smirk on his face should tell you otherwise. There are teeth behind that smile of his.
Um, isn't secessionism the thin end of the wedge of treason? Add involvement with bombs and it seems pretty serious to me. Then a gain, perhaps I'm biased after having been bombed twice by similar bastards in the 80s.
secession would just mean absorption into Canada.
What a pathetic - if not insulting - analysis he has of Afghanistan: because the Afghans have guns, their country can't be occupied.
This rather conveniently ignores the fact that before 1979, nobody there had any guns. They were given guns by the US, who had backed the Mujahideen in order to counter Soviet influence in the vicinity of the oil-rich Persian Gulf.
The fact that perhaps 2 million people there died during the Soviet occupation, and many millions more have died and been displaced by US and other troops since, has nothing - nothing whatsoever to do with any "right to bear arms." You might as well say that this was the case for North Vietnam - and what a lovely land of the free that is too.
This man is simply a deluded fool living in a cloud. Besides, if the government wants to kill you, it has Apache helicopters, M1/A1 tanks and cluster bombs. Citizens probably don't have the right to "bear" those kind of arms - unless that means simply to be annihilated by them.
Afghanistan bleeds because the world wants a pipeline and their heroin. That is really all there is to it.
Alaska is similar I suppose, oil to pump for a moment anyway,more when the ice melts. Alaskans have the same place in the overall plans as Afghan hillmen. And should expect the same results.
Three thoughts:
1 - He claims the AIP has never killed anyone, but I wonder what was on his agenda when going to "do stuff over/inside" the city? Maybe they just haven't been caught yet? He obviously has friends in high places.
2 - To me, it seems a bit contradictory to embrace a right “guaranteed” by a government/country from which one wants to secede.
3 - I’ve always wondered what it would take for folks here in the modern day U.S. to actually take up arms and defend themselves. I would like to think we would all pull together and fight the power, but unfortunately most of us are probably so unprepared (mentally and logistically) that by the time we mustered some gumption, it would be too late. I’d wager any power vacuum resulting from the chaos would be filled by the likes of Mr. Chryson… and then we would really be screwed.
Putting aside any relationship with this group and Palin, I wonder how many people have thought about the idea of secession, especially with regard to a federal government created out of the consensual union of States in the first place. Take any volatile two-party emotional partisanship out of the discussion, pretend Nader was a member of the group if it helps, but think about the nature of the Constitution (a document to restrict federal power) and the idea of a State deciding to leave. What is so crazy about that?
Would you say this is objectively worse than a group that commits violence against civilians?
Alaska was not part of the consensual union of States that created a federal government. The land was purchased by the federal government later, and became a territory.
They were then allowed to vote whether to become a state or remain a territory. They voted to become a state.
One of the AIP's main objections, is that they were not given the third option at the time, of voting to become independent.
This might be a reasonable objection, but the fact is, the United States owned Alaska at the time. They didn't invade it to take possession, they purchased it. The U.S. was not obligated to give them the option of becoming independent.
There's nothing particularly crazy about the AIP's 4% of the voting population wanting to become independent. But it's not a choice. States don't have some inherent right to dispossess themselves from the nation.
But if by "a group that commits violence against citizens", you mean the Weather Underground, well, Obama never told them to "keep up the good work". He was never involved with that group at all. He emphatically denounces their past actions.
It's not a flimsy guilt-by-association that is being created between Palin and AIP. She has recently endorsed their work openly and with her own words. The objection is not that this makes her tied to violent radicals. It doesn't. It just makes her seem to be okay with the idea of her home state seceding, an idea which is only supported by a small percentage of her constituents.
That's fine too, if that's how she feels. Let her come out and say it, though. If she can tell them to keep up the good work, we have a right to know what she means by this. So that we can decide if we like the idea of a potential President of the U.S. favoring the secession of Alaska. That's our right as voters. We should be informed about her view on it. If she wants to denounce, or endorse, the idea publicly, that would be cool. Is there some reason she should hide her stand on this?
How do the aboriginal people of Alaska feel?
No, not everyone's gotten his point, including you. His point is that baseless political attacks should be condemned whenever they occur, including when they occur to people for whom you have contempt. His point was that unsupported rumors are unsupported rumors even when you want to believe them.
You're not doing anyone any favors by playing from the bad guys' playbook.
That said, if you have some other source that proves this Vogler guy was involved with explosvies, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to hear about it.
His point is that baseless political attacks should be condemned whenever they occur
No, his point is spreading baseless innuendo against his perceived political enemies.
why is that suddenly there is so much concern that any criticism of the Cheney gang's successors meet the most rigorous tests of integrity, total accuracy and Roman-judge fairness? Where the hell have all you guys been for eight years? Spare me.
The fact is Palin is bad news, McCain is bad news, Palin's loony past embarrassing entanglements are bad news and any apologists, real or tactical stalking horses are contributors to bad news.
Yep, integrity is an absolute, but better put the damn fire out before there is nothing to be righteous about but a smoking foundation.
" Per Dexter Clark:
“There’s a joke — she’s a pretty good-lookin’ gal — there’s a joke around, that we’re the coldest state with the hottest governor. And there’s a lot of talk about her moving up. She was an AIP member, before she got the job as the mayor of a small town. That was a nonpartisan job. But to get along to go along, she eventually joined the Republican Party, where she had all kinds of problems with their ethics … And she’s pretty well sympathetic, because of her former membership.”
This is what AIP Chairwoman Lynette Clark tells us about Sarah:
“I’ve admired Sarah from the first time I met her at the 2006 (AIP) convention,” Palin also addressed, says Clark. “She impressed me so much. She’s Alaskan to the bone; she’s a damn good gal.
“As I was listening to her, I thought she sounds like we’ve been saying for years. I thought to myself, ‘My God, she sounds just Joe Vogler.’”
Sarah Palin finds America so imperfect that she wants us to lose 1/5 of our land mass and, if you believe her, over 20% of our energy supplies.
That is NOT change we can believe in.:"
The pipeline must flow... :/
and in the end, Arrakis was made green and the Fremen died.
Read the Salon article, too. There's a lot more history about the AIP there. I live in Alaska and have always thought that the politicians here are further to the right than they would be in the rest of the states.
t'aint bad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_(novel)
Wrng rcsm n yr slv...ltrlly!!!