Conservatives irked by "ostentatiously exotic" pronunciation of Pakistan
Conservatives agree: Petraeus sounds like a pompous ass when he says Pock-i-stahn.
“When Petraeus says Pock-i-stahn I have an uncontrollable urge to read the New Yorker and find some Chardonnay. Fortunately I have an old copy of NR and a Coors Light to snap me back to reality. Seriously though — no one in flyover country says Pock-i-stahn. It’s annoying.” (The Corner on National Review Online)Whoops, I accidentally wrote "Petraeus" in the above quotes. Please replace with "Obama."“Re Gen. Petraeus’s ostentatiously exotic pronunciation of Pakistan, one thing I like about Sarah Palin is the way she says ‘Eye-raq’.” (The Corner on National Review Online)
“Most overwrought pronunciation of the night: The academic way that Petraeus says ‘Pakistan,’ with a soft ‘a’ - reminscent of a 1980s ‘Saturday Night Live’ sketch in which newscasters over-pronounced ‘Managua, Nicaragua.’” (Philadelphia Daily News)
Conservatives Call Obama’s Correct Pronounciation Of Pakistan ‘Exotic’ And ‘Annoying’
the latest
latest episodes
Sorry, but - henh? Isn't that just his accent? Am I being obtuse here?
Uh, okay. So I wonder what these same "conservatives" think about the way that Bush and Palin pronounce the word "nuclear".
At least Obama and Petraeus have all the right letters in the right place.
The only "story" here is the hypocrisy of these "conservatives", and that's hardly new news at all.
People also sound like pompous asses when they say "flyover country"!
Those who think the only action in the country occurs between The Sprawl (Boston-NY-DC axis) and LA are elitist (to use their own current language), effete (to echo Agnew), snobs. Conservative, or liberal, but condescending one and all.
Sorry - one of my hot buttons I guess. On a (hopefully more) rational note: has anyone in economics-science land come up with an index which reflects how things are going for non-stock-owning, working-a-regular-job-or-three people? If so, we need it reported on the networks every night in place of the DJIA.
Hmm. Cute uniform. Correctly pronounces Pakistan. Uses the word 'existential' in a press conference.
Is he single?
"Eye-rack" (for Iraq) and "Eye-ran" (for Iran) also bug me.
But don't lets get into the mess that Herr Bush made of the English language.
I'm pretty sure that's how people in Pakistan pronounce the name of their country. When I hear Petraeus or Obama pronounce it that way it makes me think they more aware of the place they're discussing.
Does anybody think this is less intelligent than 'eye ran' and 'eye rack'? Probably only the people who wore 'So Dam Insane' t-shirts after 9/11.
Christiane Amanpour also ribbed Stephen Colbert for saying Eye-Rack. She insisted it was Ear-Rock. Which it is.
The Pakistani bartender I knew says Pock-i-stahn and I figured he knows where he came from.
FTR, Qatar isn't pronounced Cut-TAR, it's pronounced more like "cut-ER." Does not rhyme with "guitar."
'Pronunciation' is misspelled as 'pronounciation' in the title.
Which should let you know where I stand on this issue. I'm the only person I know who pronounces the 'gh' in 'Afghanistan' correctly.
Wait! Isn't the truly creepy news here the fact that there is something called "The Pentagon Channel"?!
m-w.com lists both "nuclear" and "nucular" as
correct pronunciations of "nuclear". I'm curious
to see what dictionaries published before we had
Bush as president say.
It sounds like he's pronouncing it correctly.
I suppose the proper conservative way would be
to say "In some parts of pack-i-stan they speak
poon-jabi."
I like the New Yorker and chardonnay...
I guess that make me "an elite!!"
I'll have to tell all the guys down at the loading dock !
Pock-i-stahn is the way Pakistanis say the name of their country and they HATE chardonnay...go figure.
Good tweak, Mark. Petraeus wasn't very well liked by the conservative establishment for a long time either, it's worth noting. Rumsfeld totally sidelined him after the invasion because Petraeus' long-haul, civic engagement-oriented, anti-insurgency doctrines were totally at odds with his jackass magic smart bomb theories. Don't let the uniform fool you, he's got a PhD in international relations from Princeton-- you know, one of them East Coast elite types.
Spelling Conservative Buddy66 irked by constant misspelling of pronunciation.
I agree Bloo. As a native of a flyover state who now lives on the west coast, I hate this "Midwestern America is the REAL America" attitude. Most of my flyover family feels the same way.
W.JamesAu @13 - I don't think you're going to put Antinous off...
@ #11 posted by Mitch
Well, the Oxford American Dictionary I have on my computer tells me it's just nuclear, the only variation being in the ending: |ˈn(y)oōklēər; -kli(ə)r|.
So no "nucular" for Bush and Palin, my friend.
Well, if you pronounce Iran properly it doesn't sound as good when you make your "Bomb bomb Iran" Beach Boys joke.
Yumm, as a Pakistani I thought both did not pronounce correctly. But its a stupid reason to be debating over, but I guess when you got text to fill anything goes.
'Pronunciation' is misspelled as 'pronounciation' in the title.
I fixificated it.
Antinous: don't ask then he won't have to tell.
Following the Pakistan complaint, is it okay for us to call McCain's running mate Sair-Appalin' ?
Though it makes my skin crawl to agree with conservative wingnuts about anything, I have to disagree with the premise that the correct pronunciation is the one Pakistanis use themselves. We don't say Frahnss, Knee-Hon, or Doych-lond, after all. We say Japan, France and Germany.
I rather like Petraeus. If you haven't noticed, Petraeus in particular and the military in general have been a sane and moderate influence compared to the executive branch.
@#22
I have to disagree with the premise that the correct pronunciation is the one Pakistanis use themselves
The correct pronunciation *IS* the one Pakistanis use themselves. Whether it's socially acceptable to pronounce it incorrectly here is something else. Personally, not only do I see anything wrong with people who must deal directly with Pakistan in using the correct pronunciation, I think it's a plus. Call me crazy. Or pretentious.
Or nukuler.
Also, it should be noted that 'The Corner' is where they put dunces.
there is no eyerack (eerock)or eyeran (eeron), france is really fraunce, bombay is mombai. have these foreigners no shame. i think that president mccain should require all foreign locations to have(american)english names.
#23, Antinous,
I should hope SOMEONE down there has a sane and moderate influence...
Out of the choices... I'd rather it be the folks with the tanks than not, I suppose. Ideally EVERYONE, but I've got no idea what too extreme to hope for, these days.
"If you haven't noticed, Petraeus in particular and the military in general have been a sane and moderate influence compared to the executive branch."
Antinous - I lol'd. Funniest thing said here, ever. How long will you be here? Should I have the Chicken or the Fish? Should I tip the waitress?
If correctly saying place names makes one pretentious, I assume these conservatives from the heartland would have no problem if people starting saying the final S in Arkansas and pronouncing the SOUR in Missouri. Heck, just to make sure we never sound pretentious, maybe no one should ever say anything correctly.
These are the same conservative folks that have given us the following signs these past few years:
"Obama is a Muslin" "Get a brain Morans", "make English the offical language" "Mavrik" and, my favorite from the RNC:
"Keeping Ameirca Strong"
http://punditkitchen.com/2008/09/08/political-pictures-republicans-misspell-america-smart/
I will now be adding the phrase "jackass magic smart bomb" to my vocabulary as a general-purpose adjective.
I don't expect Americans to call China Zhongguo or India Bharat, but if the English name is the same as the local one, we might as well try to pronounce it correctly. I suppose that it falls to the conscience of each of us to decide if we'd rather sound like a citizen of the world or a citizen of Bugtussle. Of course, whenever I mention Qatar, someone offers me a tissue.
I thought the military were part of the Executive Branch. What else would they be? Judicial?
Certainly they are by FAR the sanest, most reasonable part of the Executive Branch. Maybe that's because most of them take their oaths seriously, unlike our scumbag asshole POTUS.
I thought the military were part of the Executive Branch.
I never thought of that, but it sounds right. The military, at any rate, seems more likely to defend the Constitution than the President. In other words, we could be Turkey in a few years.
Here's an entertaining bit of Victorian imperial swaggering:
"THE LAWS OF ETIQUETTE" (Philadelphia, 1836) (Available at Project Gutenberg)As silly as "Bord-oh-KKSS" is, I think it's definitely possible to go TOO far in the other direction, like when you're speaking with an American accent but suddenly roll the 'R' in "Nica-RRRRR-agua" like Alex Trebek does. Like for a moment there you started speaking IN the other language. In my family, this mid-sentence accent-switching is called "Trebekking it."
"POCK-ih-ston" doesn't seem to be Trebekking it, though.
Antinous, he's single, but don't date him! He'll betray you!
It's hard to take any news story seriously when the anchor looks/sounds like Andy Dick. When the world ends I want MC2 Andrew Holloway to tell me. Really.
Yes, god forbid our leaders pronounce the names of foreign countries with something approaching the same way the countries themselves pronounce their own name.
typical racist right wing assholes... what's new. these worthless little boys think everyone has to be just like they are: ignorant, quick to hate, and above all else - frightened most of the time.
Steve Coll has a good profile of Petraeus for the New Yorker, basically describing him as a liberal's general. Very impressive guy:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/09/08/080908fa_fact_coll
I imagine Obama will keep him on, least I hope so.
Transliteration is for uncultured hicks! I'm going to start demanding that everyone pronounce the initial 'S' in my germanic name as "Sch".
Didn't chardonnay go out with Reagan, oh that's right, they're still talking about him like he matters anymore also...
so, when people pronounce "espresso" with an x, as in "eXpresso", should i hit them or praise them? it's just so hard to be a proper american these days.
Slap them with a stinky gym sock, Maxoid.
"if the English name is the same as the local one, we might as well try to pronounce it correctly."
Cool, I'm looking forward to you pronouncing Bath, in England, as "Baath" (assuming you're not British), and pronouncing "New York" without the "r" (assuming you're not from there).
Do you also expect the Mexicans to pronounce Los Angeles as we do instead of "Lohs An-gel-es"?
#28 Falcon_Seven,
Antinous is right. Compared to some of the mad dogs and fascists I soldiered under, this crop of generals tests out pretty liberal. Of course the Bush Gang fired and retired a lot of them. But I was really hoping Wes Clark would be Obama's VP choice; he is one super-smart soldier! Remember, West Pointers have to take classes in Constitutional Law. How many of you BBers did, or plan to?
So he chooses to use a soft A... so? I pronounce "missile" as "miss-ayel" (the british way) not "missul" (the "american" way).
do these "flyover" Americans think the willful mispronunciation of these nation's names is lost on their natives?
As a person who was born in Pakistan, I can confirm that Obama pronounces it correctly. It is Pak (pok which means pure) and istan (istahn that means land of the) So pok-is-tahn land of the pure is correct.
sheesh!
Cool, I'm looking forward to you pronouncing Bath, in England, as "Baath"
I'm from Massachusetts. We pronounce it the same way as the British. And I also know how to pronounce El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de la Porciúncula.
#44, I do pronounce "Bath" as "Baaath", because that's its name. And I'm not British.
I wouldn't correct a Mexican if he didn't pronounce our city names with a flat, nasal American drawl, but if a Japanese person who habitually transposed his L's and R's (yes, they do that sometimes) said "Amelica", I'd correct him.
The only thing more annoying than ignorance is willful ignorance.
My dictionary gives păk'ĭ-stăn which is the Palin version, or päk-ĭ-stän' which is the Patraeus version.
It also gives ĭ-răk' or ē-räk'.
In both cases the second pronunciation is closer to the native.
Only a pure hick would say, ī'răk, and only a moron would be proud of it.
Bad example. We ALL pronounce it ellay.
"sketch in which newscasters over-pronounced ‘Managua, Nicaragua.’”
I realize there are regional variations, but using the pronunciations of people who live there is "over-pronouncing"? It's the same kind of problem with "Peking/Beijing" or "Bombay/Mumbai" or "Ceylon/Sri Lanka." Apparently the speakers of English who visited those places and tried to fit the place-names in standard English sounds failed so badly that it had to be corrected at some point. It was educational to listen to the opening ceremonies at the Olympics and listen to, what was it, Cantonese, French and American English pronunciations of each nation.
Or another example: We call it "Germany." They call it "Deutschland." What gives? That's not even close to being a mispronunciation.
What this actually boils down to is that regional variations in pronunciation are inevitable, and ought to be acceptable without totalitarian schoolmarms telling everyone that only their way is acceptable. Which is correct, "pop" or "soda"? To say that one is correct and all others are wrong is to elevate your favorite regional accent and idioms higher than they deserve.
These totalitarian schoolmarms are guilty of being provincial, a.k.a. hicks.
#46 @ JimXugle: I prefer 'resistance is fewtile' the way Patrick Stewart says it, to 'resistance is fewtal' the way Data says it. Now I can't help but pronounce futile as 'fewtile.'
Am I the only one who finds the irony of Americans correcting people's pronunciation incredibly amusing?
It's true, language evolves and maybe one day all sources will list "nuke-you-ler" as a correct pronunciation, or even the correct one. But in the meantime, it's hypocritical of people to pass judgment on "Pahk-i-stan" when their own favorites are doing a worse job of pronouncing things.
As far as the question of "should we always pronounce the place names as the natives do", I agree there's no obviously right answer. That said, I think that when the local pronunciation is easily pronounced in the foreign language using the foreign spelling, it behooves the foreigners to at least try to respect the local pronunciation. I'm not going to go around calling Germany "Deutschland", but places like "Frahnce" "Pahk-i-stan" are easy enough to get right.
Beyond that, it's one thing to say that there's no reason to use the local pronunciation, but ridiculing someone for using the correct, local pronunciation is just the usual anti-intellectual attitude fostered by the "conservatives". They've made a whole political platform on the idea that it's better to be dumb and uneducated. If they continue to have any more successes in this country with that approach, it bodes poorly for our future indeed.
@53 "Germany" is a holdover from the Roman name for the province "Germania". People in Germany have called themselves Deutsch the same way people in the Netherlands (or Holland if you prefer) call themselves Dutch.
Am I the only one who finds the irony of Americans correcting people's pronunciation incredibly amusing?
Since US pronunciation is as close to early 17th century British pronunciation as current UK pronunciation, yes.
I find Obama's pronunciation of "Pakistan" annoying. If you're going to do it at all, it has to be graceful, with some knowledge of how to make the sounds of other languages, instead of with a heavy American accent, which generally stinks of linguistic capability. Failing that, the typical American pronunciation is best, I feel. Unless you're Sarah Palin, in which case your poor foreign pronunciation might actually sound better than your native one.
@45 - Remember that generals of Petraeus' rank are nominated to their posts by the President and those nominations are approved by the Senate. That means Bush nominates him to his posts and our Senators approve or disapprove those nominations. While he may be one of the most 'intellectual' general officers to ever serve this country, his 'political' views are irrelevant to his duty, which is to serve the civilian authorities. MacArthur tried to f*ck with Harry Truman and Harry 'stopped the buck' in his ass and fired him. I have the greatest respect for Petraeus' intellectual capacity and his service to this country. However, it is irrelavent as to whether he pronounces it Pahk-i-stan or Pak-a-stan. His mission is to find UBL and either kill him or capture him -so to deliver him to the civilian authorities to mete out justice on his ass.
Oh, BTW, JIMXUGLE, that's mis-sile, many of them are composed largely of aluminium.
"The Explainer" on Nuke-u-lar:
http://www.slate.com/id/2071155/
I makes me want to punch a wall, but there is surprisingly more precedent for pronouncing it "nuke-u-lar" than one might think.
Can we get onto the important things...like McCain saying "Warshington"?
Even if it is the correct pronunciation, I think he overdid it. Don't draw out the vowels so much!
Linguistic incapability, that is. *vanishes*
m-w.com lists both "nuclear" and "nucular" as
correct pronunciations of "nuclear".
The dictionary's purpose is not to give the "correct" usage, but rather to describe how the word is used in practice.
"Nuclear" is correct. "Nucular" is most definitely an incorrect pronunciation.
I'm a conservative AND I like the New Yorker and Chardonnay (unoaked, please). Hopefully I'm still allowed into the secret VRWC meetings.
I can see both sides of this one, minus the condescension being heaped on by both sides. I also understand that every language pronounces other languages' words differently. Hell, London gets a whole new name in French (Londres). Same with München in German/Munich in English. (In Italian, it's "Monaco," which led to an unexpected trip for my brother one time.) There are literally thousands of examples. It would be impossible for anyone to know the "native" names of every country, region, or city. So we develop conventions that are generally agreed upon within a given language.
I don't begrudge my French friends for saying "Virginie" or "Floride," and when they're over here they don't mind people calling their hometown Pear-iss. When in Rome...
I guess the Pakistan thing just isn't a big deal to me either way. Hard for me to understand why anyone else would think it is.
Antinous @ 58 - various US pronunciations approximate to ~current~ Westcountry and East Anglian pronunciations... We haven't yet separated as far as some might think...
Plus I love the use of the word 'Irked' in this post ... :O)
"I guess the Pakistan thing just isn't a big deal to me either way. Hard for me to understand why anyone else would think it is."
I think because it can be perceived as an attempt to sound more worldly than one may really be, which is cloying to many. Sort of like when my Art History professor in college would say "Lie-bra" instead of "Lee-bra", or "Veer-go" instead of "Vur-go" when discussing astrological symbolism. They could've been the correct pronunciations for all we knew (she was awesomely knowledgeable), but it didn't stop us from ridiculing her after class.
I'm continually irritated by seemingly willful mispronunciations of Iran, Iraq, and others by politicians and newsfolks (although they usually get it right on NPR and PBS--does getting my news from those sources make me elitist too?).
That said, my (full, tenured) college chemistry professor (at Tufts) always said "nucular" as well. It gave me a bit of a chuckle, but he clearly understood what it meant (better than I did), and so I took it to be a regionalism. There are so many things to criticize Bush about (and even Palin already!) that I always let that one slide.
Local pronunciations are the way to go. I visit Not-re Dahm in Paris and Note-re Dame in the States.
In fifth-fucking-_grade_ my dear friend Jim , whose family had lived as missionaries in Pakistan, taught me that pahk-i-stahn means "land of peace," while Pack-uh-stan means "land of ducks."
As I began learning long before fifth grade and have learned anew this election season, people who relish ignorance can almost always safely be ignored.
I can buy the idea that there would naturally be variation in pronounciation if you port a word into a different language, but some things have never made sense to me. Why Germany instead of Deutschland? Deutschland isn't hard to say even if you've never spoken a word of German...or rather Deutsch. And even stranger, my grandparents' home land, Hungary. Hungarians call it Magyar. Also not that hard to say. Where the heck did "Hungary" come from? It just seems unnecessarily complicated.
I just thought I'd throw in here that last night there was a clip of Sarah Palin giving a speech on MSNBC and the really large "COUNTRY FIRST" banner behind her was clipped in frame and said "TRY FIRST"... I couldn't take my eyes off it...
Conservatives are irked by all things that start with "P" - Obama's pronunciation, his presidential poise, his talking points, and his lead in the polls.
#69 au contraire.. its the people who relish ignorance who are the most dangerous of all.
It was educational to listen to the opening ceremonies at the Olympics and listen to, what was it, Cantonese, French and American English pronunciations of each nation.
Mandarin, not Cantonese.
I actually watched this news clip live - had no idea there were idiots out there who would read total bollocks into the pronunciation.
For the record it's a slightly 'posh' way to pronounce it - given that the general was with a bunch of English top army brass he probably took on their affectation.
sheesh - talk about creating a mountain out of a mole-hill..... very poor news-making!
Laying in wait for people to pronounce things correctly -- it's an old, old game.
land of the broke?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3147266/Pakistan-facing-bankruptcy.html
I guess his pronounciation is against the western "normal" pronounciation, but it's very similar to the actual pronounciation. People in the West say it like Pack-is-Stan, when in Urdu, Pakistan's official language, it's pronounced Pock-is-stawn (stawn is said like shawn).
Um... who are these conservatives? I don't see any names I recognize.
pleaseeeeeee
assumetehposition@77: "Um... who are these conservatives? I don't see any names I recognize."
There are probably fewer than 150 million conservatives in the US. Don't you know all their names?
"'Garçon' means boy."
I'm not sure what the big deal is. I'm was raised in Australia, but my mother is from Britain and we would say Pa(r)kistan without skipping a beat. It's like the difference between the prounciations of the word "dance". Some people say da(r)nce and others dance. I think it's got something to do with an insulated American culture, unfamiliar with the other types of English language accents that are being spoken around the world.
Petraeus seems to be the one voice of moderation, reason and (shock!) thought through-out the entire operation. The operation being any branch of the US Gov't atm.
I'm not surprised conservatives would have a go at him, he's one figurehead that may actually conceed the need for genuine bi-partisan cooperation... not the bi-partisan they like, where liberals fold to whatever the hell they want.
~formerly JBANG. Using my real name from here on in.
I'm sorry...but who cares. How about holding some accountability for more serious problems.
@ #29: I think they pronounce it m'ZURrah.
I find it fascinating the way Americans pronounce Parmesan. It sound almost French without actually being the way the French pronounce it. Anyone know why?
A number of commenters have mentioned "Mumbai/Bombay" as an example of wilful Amurken ignorance... Not necessarily. Sometimes a name has political significance.
Renaming the city from Bombay to Mumbai was the work of Shiv Sena, a fairly virulent Hindu-nationalist party. I was recently informed by a friend who was born there that in certain circles (her own, for instance) it is NOT the done thing to call it Mumbai - in fact it's a small gesture of resistance to continue to call it Bombay. (Anyway, what would we call the filmies, then: Mollywood?)
This reminds me of another case: Burma/Myanmar. I don't see eye-to-eye with the Bush administration on much, but I do agree with their continuing to call it Burma.
The military junta calls it Myanmar; Aung San Suu Kyi calls it Burma. I know which I'd rather say.
...And don't forget Japan / Nippon. How did this discrepancy come to exist?
[Tired sigh]
People, just Wikipedia it and you'll find the IPA pronunciation(paːkɪst̪aːn) and a link to an ogg file, both of which confirm that
Petraeus/Obama/educated (or at those willing to learn) people are right on the button.
And "nuclear" is an adjective "of, relating to, or constituting a nucleus"
Not a "nuculus", a "nucleus".
Hence "nü-klē-ər", not "nü-kyə-lər"
#6 is absolutely right IMO. That IS the way people in this part of the world pronounce it and it's actually refreshing to hear someone say it properly for a change.
@ Apashiol, "parmesan" may be a French word but the cheese is sold here in France under its Italian name "Parmigiano-Reggiano".
Wow!. Yes wow. It's amazing to me, as an Irishman who has spent his entire working life listening to American colleagues unable or unwilling to correctly pronounce "Ireland" (2 syllables not 3, not exactly hard) or my name, to see a willing embrace of ignorance like this. He thinks it's pretentious to be correct? I'd guess he left the US.
Of course I've spent my last 20 years online fighting a lost battle reminding people on forums etc that not only Americans use the 'tubes.
And Parmesan is Italian not French!
Apashiol / Metronicity
The Parmesan pronunciation in the US comes from the Italian-American pronunciation for the product.
Still today, many Italian dialects drop the final vowel sound in many words. Seeing as how much of the Italian spoken in the US today derives from Siciliano and Calabrese, this isn't all that surprising.
Now, somebody explain B-O-L-O-G-N-A to me.
#70: Now if there was an ability to vote up posts, I'd be voting up yours. If that's not a reason to get the pronunciation right, I don't know what is!
#71: Hungary, now that's an interesting one. Obviously the word derives from "Hun" - the pan-European name (in its various pronunciations/spellings) for the Magyars. I suspect that naming came from there having been a lot of us-and-them going on during the early days of there being Magyars in Europe. ("God save us from the arrows of the Huns!")
From the Wikipedia article on Huns: "Research and debate about the Asian ancestral origins of the Huns has been ongoing since the 18th century. For example philologists still debate to this day which ethnonym from Chinese or Persian sources is identical with the Latin Hunni or the Greek Hounnoi as evidence of the Huns' identity."
As to where, exactly, the Latin/Greek Hunni/Hounnoi comes from, two candidates I could find (which I'm sure are much debated) are the Chinese "Xiongnu" (匈奴) and Sogdian "χwn".
For that matter, isn't the country name technically "Magyarország", with "Magyar" being an adjective? (ie the language is called "Magyar" the same way English is called "English".)
#88: I sometimes use "Nippon" when speaking with/around Japanese people. I haven't quite gone as far as using "Nihonjin", though.
#65: What is with people and unoaked chardonnay? Oaking gives it that wonderful, buttery flavour. (Lol, just kidding - you can take your chardonnay any way you like!)
#60: I don't think they're talking about his political views, so much as his awareness of the political infrastructure of his own country, as well as the political landscapes of countries he may be ordering operations in. That does matter in carrying out his job, for instance if he were ordered to carry out military operations on home soil (in which case he should refuse), or ordered to invade Iran (in which case he should try to explain the enormous cost, and most likely resign if the people ordering him were not persuaded).
Posh Asians would say Pohk-iss-tohn. The same way "fragrant" can become "fra-grant", the first a being soft, i.e. "frah-gront". It's irritating to the tuned English ear - the only ear to be tuned to - but seems to represent a cultural norm.
Perhaps the next president of the USA is pronouncing it correctly in the manner a more outward looking statesmen would, rather than an insular and word-shredding idiot bent on the destruction of the modern world.
By saying Pohk, he may be implicitly reaching out to people he's surely going to be working with, paying them the honour of correctly pronouncing the name of their nation, which might show diligence, research and respect. Gosh - those would start to add up to diplomacy! Wow!
So rather than ostentation, my bets are with informed adoption. It's a risk in the US, given the majority of the population quite happily say "eye-this" and "eye-that", they have asked me whether English is spoken in England, and believed me when I claim to be from India.
The risk being people call him ostentatious.
My bets - this is not an insular politician. He's making serious moves, and in some societies, viz many Asian, this is how you do it.
You start by ceasing to insult your audience by mispronouncing their name.
I know that the Italian for Parmesan is Parmigiano.
I was remarking how the American pronunciation 'almost' sounds French but isn't.
Perhaps insomma is right and it derives from Calabro-Sicilian.
To insomma, It's likely that baloney was originally derived from the Gaelic 'beal onna' or foolish talk. Somewhere along the line the pronunciation of Bologna seems to have morphed into baloney.
Apashiol
Who would've guessed Gaelic?! :)
As for the general argument, I think it's something pretty normal to adopt the pronunciation you hear most frequently, especially with place names. For Petraeus we can imagine that more people in the Middle East say 'Pok' as opposed to 'Paaak' and he follows suit. It's hard for me to say Padua(Padova)or Genoa(Genova) even in English conversation. Likewise it's impossible to say Bravo to a girl even thought it's the norm in English speaking countries. Even out of context it never seems right. In America I have to be very careful with what I say, lest I come off as elite. LOL.
Lest I. lol!
I know, I know. It came out that way because I wasn't sure how to spell elitist. Go figure!
Atleast Obama doesn't refer to his supporters as My fellow prisoners!
Sorry, but I see no fun or matter of mockery here.
He pronounces Pakistan just as it should be.
Should he pronounce others countries names kinda funny because he is a conservative? I dont think so.
PD: I´m no conservative nor advocate of funny names
insomma
Well educated English speakers would know to say 'Brava' to a girl. And we here use 'lest' so ignore WalterBillington. He's just and oik.
*an oik. Drat!
IvyMike @61: "Can we get onto the important things...like McCain saying 'Warshington'?"
Interesting, I had no idea McCain was originally from Bawlmer, Merlin. ;) I lived in Baltimore the first 20 years of my life, but somehow never picked up the local accent.
What's weird for me now is pronouncing English words in the middle of Finnish sentences. I'm never sure if I should pronounce the English word with Finnish pronunciation, or revert to my native pronunciation for just that one word. Both options feel kind of awkward.
I'll be really impressed if he can manage to pronounce something like "Xhosa" correctly.
Something pronounced in a tonal language would be fun, too. Mandarin, anyone?
Remember it's a nukular power, this Pakistan.
Chuck @ #76: of course, lying in wait for incorrect word choice is an even older game.
[/pedant] :D
Gobbo @50: Correcting Japanese pronounciation of English Ls and Rs might be a bit of a lost cause. In the pronunciation of the Japanese R (that is to say, the sound transliterated into Romaji as R), the tongue is midway between the position for English L and English R.
Most Japanese literally cannot hear the difference between English L and R, and use the Japanese R for both, there being no L sound in Japanese. Likewise, most English speakers cannot distinguish the Japanese R from the English R and L, and so their brain arbitrarily assigns it to one of those categories, usually the wrong one.
By their lights, Japanese are pronouncing the English correctly; the problem is with your ears not being tuned to the sound they're making.
The problem isn't the "pronounciation", it's the attitude towards it, from both sides (many of us included).
It's not a new phenomenon for highly educated people to look down on those they see as ignorant and uncultured, and its no surprise that uneducated lower classes resent and distrust of those who have mistreated them, or even anyone who trys to be like them. That would include those who dress to cosmpolitain, or speak using too sophisticated a vocabulary, or who otherwise put on airs of cultural superiority.
I'm not defending ignorance. This is the class war, and it's been happening for centuries. Red and Blue states (and the current American cultural rift) are just a worsening of this ever-present mutual resentment.
Part of the cause of this stems from active mobilization efforts in low-class middle-America by various Conservative groups. But part of it also falls upon the left wing's folly in abandoning its own roots in the working class as they have aged, gone to University, moved to big cities, etc.
My point is, making fun of people for being culturally and educationally deprived isn't going to make them want to change, any more than them calling you a "Godless liberal" is going to make you want to come to Jesus.
I can't even keep track of what one side of this ridiculous dichotomy doesn't like about the other anymore.
There is a sweet irony in hearing that some Americans don't like the way other Americans may pronounce words /correctly/. It's like "elitism" has been redefined as "knowing facts, being reasonable and pronouncing words as correctly as possible."
Isn't this an easy thing to do? Like personal names, shouldn't we just try to pronounce place-names as the people who live there? Or at least make an attempt if we can?
There is a certain irony here that some people don't like me pronouncing Pakistan as correctly as I can (i.e., without that broad North American "a", which I know I have, but try, sometimes, to tone down) but would think it ridiculous if I pronounced "Detroit", "Favre" or "Des Moines" /correctly/. People, those are /French/ words with normalized, French pronunciations. Unlike English, French has strict rules about these things, and you are all doing it wrong.
Oh, wait. We are supposed to just accept local reinterpretations of foreign proper nouns, aren't we?
Of course, this is a bit of global problem, isn't it? I mean, the French don't pronounce any of these countries the correct way. Why, they just go ahead and make up their own words for place-names! Gee, and the Germans do it, too. And the Spanish, Greek...
It's /almost/ like former global colonial powers now engaged in post-colonialist policies use language to assert their dominance over former colonial nations.
Or something.
I wonder if these same "conservative" (whatever the hell that means, anymore) folks as pissed off when India renamed their cities back to a more recognizable (to them) written and spoken form recently? The nerve!
I find it more interesting (and somewhat hilarious) that there's an actual Pentagon news channel. But then again I don't have English as my first language, so the subtleties on how to correctly pronounce Pakistan may be lost on me.
The problem is not just with English speakers who assert their prefered regional pronunciation is correct, but with anyone of either side saying that one regional pronunciation is "correct." If you look at how languages develop, it's practically inevitable that accents and regional differences will arise. Resistance is futile. Obama's pronunciation is acceptable but not necessarily "correct" any more than "davenport" is the correct word to use when talking about a couch.
@108 JackM
While in general your point may hold, in this instance it does not. Liberals didn't go out and find conservatives who say Pack-i-stan and start mocking them. They are responding to conservatives mocking Obama's (proper) pronunciation of Pahk-i-stan. Nice MSM approach to balance on the topic, though. Two points for proving that when one group says 2+2 = 4 while another says 2+2 = 6, some idiot will conclude that 2+2 = 5.
bm's prnnctn f "Pkstn" s, ndd, stnttsly xtc. Ds h sy MK-sk-h r MH-h-k? Hw bt Münchn r Mnch? Ds h ffr ths lngstc dstnctn nly t slmc cntrs? Mr mprtntly, ds h sy PCK--sthn t hs wn dnnr tbl? 'd bt tht h ds nt.
Th smpl fct s ths: Whn pmps s$s lk bm ntntnlly prnnc vry frgn prpr nn s THY THNK t wld b prnncd by ntv spkr, thy snd lk, wll, pmps s$s.
Ths hs nthng t d wth dctn. dr sy hv mr dctn thn bm, fr whtvr tht's wrth. Hwvr, sy Mnch whn spk nglsh, nd Münchn whn spk Grmn. Bng wll-dctd ds nt nttl m t pt n rs. Mrvr, t's K, n fct, t's bsltly prpr t prnnc frgn wrd s t s trdtnlly prnncd n mst (f nt ll) dlcts f mrcn nglsh, spclly whn skng pblc ffc n plc n whch mrcn nglsh s th ffcl lngg (f nt by lw, t lst by dflt.) Gd knws tht frgnrs ntntnlly msprnnc nglsh wrds, mrphng wrd nt smthng tht's cmfrtbly prnncbl wth th st f phnms tht thy s vry dy. W d th sm hr, nd t's n crm. t's ls nt ndctv f n's dctnl stts n th lst.
sn't bm prtndng t b n tch wth th "cmmn mn" nywy? Jst rmmbr, fr vry n f y wnnb-rdt, smg, qs-sntnt lbrls wh r wvng bm's flg, y r jnd by t lst fv hndrd bsclly fnctnlly rtrdd, lltrt, gb'mnt hnd-t skrs wh cn't vn prnnc nglsh wrds n nglsh, lt ln frgn wrds, nd wh cldn't vn pnt t Pkstn n mp f Sthwst s.
If you haven't noticed, Petraeus in particular and the military in general have been a sane and moderate influence compared to the executive branch.
I want whatever you are having that helps you seeing through the mountains of dead bodies and through the crowds of maimed men, women and children.
I am sure that you meant well but your example show that there is also a thing such as being too moderate.
With all due respect.
Jean
#110: Just wanted to point out that according to the latest Gallup poll, us smug, quasi-sentient liberals and functionally retarded, illiterate, gub'mint hand-out seekers currently make up 52% of the population. Can you really blame us for being smug?
Only terrorists pronounce things correctly. Real Americans slaughter the pronunciation and are damn proud of it.
The Grasshopper Lies Heavy.
As Obama said, "It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant."
Truer every day.
#112:
1. Th plls b dmnd - Yr nmbrs r grtr thn 52%. f crs, th lt, by dfntn, wld hv t xcld th mjrty. Thnk Gd mst f th 52%+ wnt b bl t stggr t vtng bth n th 4th, vn f th lbs bs n ndgnts nd tmpt thm wth pcks f cgrtts gn lk thy dd n '04.
2. t's W smg, qs-sntnt lbrls...
3. m stll "dng" prl?
4. Chrs!
I don't know what language so-called 'conservative' Americans speak, but if they think these guys pronounce things incorrectly they are really scholastically challenged, more so than I ever imagined.
If this is a joke, it's a magnificent one. If it isn't, quite frankly this is the most spine-chilling and petty bit of news I have heard within this whole debarcle.
'Conservative'?! What happened to conservation of the English language so that their future children don't speak like they are mentally handicapped or inbred or both?!
I don't know about you guys, but their attitude is going to spark some unprecidented reactions - I wouldn't be surprised if eventually I tried to assasinate them personally. And I wince when I kill mosquitoes. Mosquitoes for crying out loud.
Well the correct spelling would be پاکستان
(Urdu) But we do the best we can with English letters and some slight mispronunciation.
The "P" is said more like a "B" and the accent is not really that much on the first syllable, but as much on the last as on the first.
IMHO it's OK to say Germany but more respectful to say Deutschland, likewise "Bharat" is more respectful than "India," etc. etc.
I have heard "Ee-rawn" from Iranis and "Ee-rack" from Iraqis. Arabic and Farsi have slight differences and Arabic itself varies over different regions.
"Los Angeles" - a sad affair, that.
Ah the GOP. The party that can't pronounce nuclear. We don't want no book lunred interlecural types what can pro-nounce wurds right.
The guy standing next to Petraeus in that clip is so angry. Or he smells something bad. Or he needs his sunglasses.
Nukuler.
Agree with #115
Many Americans do take pride in being ignorant.
I wish I knew why.
imitation of the colonial ruling power's ways and speech is standard primate politics. The master never need honour the servant or slave's pidgin with correct pronunciation since the gun and whip trump learning and cultural awareness - or awareness period. Vivian Stanshall's lovely example - if you can find it. If American ascendancy has indeed peaked as the international press is bruiting, who next will be the imitated? China self disqualifies since any non-Han is automatically excluded from power sharing. Russia? Somehow I doubt it. American cultural imperialism was predicated in economic power - backed by the military. Many have-nots genuinely wanted to learn English and ape American ways if not actually immigrate to the great melting pot. If that is all gone now, what next?
@110 and others:
Your argument that Obama is putting on airs seems to rest on the notion that the pronunciation he used isn't standard American English. One problem with this argument: It's wrong. A quick trip to m-w.com gives the pronunciation Obama used, albeit as the second one after "Pak-i-stan". The sliced tree dictionary by my desk corroborates this.
English, a language where you can say things more than one way.
Comment #2: Uh, okay. So I wonder what these same "conservatives" think about the way that Bush and Palin pronounce the word "nuclear".
At least Obama and Petraeus have all the right letters in the right place.
The only "story" here is the hypocrisy of these "conservatives", and that's hardly new news at all.
Came in here to say the same thing.
How samll are the US conservatives of mind and heart?
When dealing with Pakistani Authorities regarding border incursions and AQ being hidden in their land, it strikes me that the capacity to correcctly pronounce the name of the country and peole you are dealing with would not be a bad place to start.
Further than that not ordering a Scotch on the rocks and a couple of Pork chops for lunch might also dispaly an understanding.
Diplomacy, it only takes a little thought.
#125
How small are the US conservatives of mind and heart?
See #110. 'Pretty damn' would be the answer you're looking for.
Once upon a time we all pronounced Van Gogh the same way. Then someone had to be more arty-than-thou and do the Van Goff thing. Okay. I made the mental note -- when with the useless-masters-degree crowd pull our my Van Goff club. I watched homage turn into a magic word 0h-maj! I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.
Really? We're in a financial crisis, an expensive war, we're deeply divided on the civil rights of women and gays- and people are talking about how annoying it is that obama pronounces the name of foreign powers correctly? And these are the same people that question his ability to handle foreign relations?
The older I get, the more elections I see, the more I despair of our ability to actually deserve a democracy.
" . . .for every one of you wannabe-erudite, smug, quasi-sentient liberals who are waving Obama's flag, you are joined by at least five hundred basically functionally retarded, illiterate, gub'mint hand-out seekers who can't even pronounce English words in English, let alone foreign words, and who couldn't even point to Pakistan on a map of Southwest Asia."
Wow, you ARE smarter than alla us!
Remember J.R. "Bob" Dobbs' motto:
"Act like a dumbfuck and they'll treat you like an equal."
Van Gogh
it is pronounced neither VAN-GO nor VAN-GOFF
but closer to van hooch, like the scottish word Loch but with a long O to sound oo.
ah allus call't him "earless-painter guy"
Justin,
I can change your display name so that your comment history remains intact, if you prefer. Otherwise, I'll disable your previous account. Your choice.
I disagree with the argument that the correct pronunciation of the name of a country, is the way the country's citizens pronounce it. That would leave us with New Orleans being properly pronounced as Nawlens, Missouri pronounced as Missourah, and my home town, Mobile, AL, pronounced as Mobeeel.
"Many Americans do take pride in being ignorant." This should read, Many Americans take pride in being simple - as in not complicated.
The word ignorant is usually used as an insult, just as is being used here. My friends and coworkers, mostly Conservative, are intelligent. They just so happened to have concentrated their intellect toward more practical endeavors. Practical, as in how it applies to what they want from life. They are interested in their family, church, values, work and friends. They couldn't care less about the proper way to pronounce nuclear or Pakistan.
These same people only use their computer to send and receive emails, and maybe to look at hunting and fishing websites. If they were to see many of the liberal comments that are posted on BB, honestly, they'd probably just shake their head and laugh. They only watch local news unless there's something big going on somewhere in the world, and the most they've ever debated US or world politics was during a friendly conversation with friends at the dinner table. This doesn't make them ignorant. They know everything they need to know to live a content and productive life.
I want whatever you are having that helps you seeing through the mountains of dead bodies and through the crowds of maimed men, women and children.
What I'm having is several hours a day of reading the news. Those people are dead because the President ordered it, not because the military decided to go on a shooting vacation. Feel free to alienate the military, but they will eventually kill you if you do so. History is extraordinarily clear on that point.
They only watch local news unless there's something big going on somewhere in the world, and the most they've ever debated US or world politics was during a friendly conversation with friends at the dinner table. This doesn't make them ignorant.
Yes, it does make them ignorant. If they were hobbits living off the land, they could ignore everything outside the borders of The Shire. When you depend on foreign oil, foreign raw materials and foreign labor for virtually everything that you use every day of your life, pretending that the outside world doesn't exist is willful ignorance.
Mark@#81
So honored to have the post's author direct a comment toward me.
"There are probably fewer than 150 million conservatives in the US. Don't you know all their names?"
I was under the impression that an important conservative was complaining, thus making this incident actually somewhat newsworthy.
P.S. I think it's shameful that Conservatives would attempt to marginalize a whole group of people because of the way they pronounce a commonly-mispronounced word. Don't you?
@139
I disagree with the argument that the correct pronunciation of the name of a country, is the way the country's citizens pronounce it.
Where's the argument? If the incorrect pronunciation is the more desired or socially acceptable, it's still incorrect.
And there's a difference between ignorance and stupidity. I don't have (m)any stupid friends, but I do have friends that are willfully ignorant about much of the world around them. They don't follow the news closely. The depth of their political thought pretty much starts and ends at "All politicians are corrupt"--which is really just an excuse for them to not pay attention. They choose to ignore it all, i.e. be ignorant.
Also, I *do* say Nawlins, Mizzurah and Mobeel, despite being born and bred on the West Coast. If you know the right way to do something, then do it the right way. I don't see the problem.
"Damn intelligentsia thinks it's so smart! "
I think #34 had it right. The purpose of pronouncing Pakistan, nuculur, eye-rak, eye-ran, etc the way Bush does is not that Bush doesn't know the correct pronunciation. It's not even that Bush is trying to put down Chardonnay-drinking libruls.
It's that your ability to willfully mispronounce your opponents' names is an indication of your dominance. If I can get away with pronouncing 'Iraq' 'eye-rak', then I am dominant. If I pronounce it "eerak," I am implicitly indicating that I consider the people who live there to be my equals.
And this, I think, is what offends the conservative mind. When Obama pronounces it eeRAK instead of eyeRAK, he's saying that the Iraqis are people just like us, and ought to be treated with the same respect and care for their lives.
And of course if you think that way, you have to be a lot more careful about how you treat them when you're occupying their country.
Similarly, by pronouncing it "nucular," he's implicitly establishing his dominance over reality-based thinkers. He's saying, "regardless of whether you happen to be right, I own you."
And that is why it pisses us off so much when he does it.
being South Asian and all I can tell you that Obama pronounces Pakistan better than most Americans.
I cannot seriously believe that *THIS* is a topic of important discussion pre-election. Can't we focus more on issues rather than dialect, accents, and articulation of words? Interesting that we pronounce it differently, and yet we all in oral discussion are able to identify the country name being discussed. Yes, it CAN be possible that someone who pronounces Iraq differently than others may ALSO be qualified to effectively hold a government position. Voters, perhaps we could donate our time to more meaningful discussion such as solutions, ideas, and facts?
Boy, given how vociferous some people are about "correct" language, you wouldn't think that English was a living language, a user-modifiable technology, on the verge of its millionth word.
I'm surprised at how many people are buying into the us vs. them mentality when it comes to language, on both sides of the political aisle. How can we put down Palin and Bush for their pronunciation of "nuclear" because it differs from our own, and not expect the same treatment for Obama? We're a large and diverse enough group in this country that there will always be linguistic differences, and highlighting them to mark someone as other, whether it's ostentatious liberal elite or ignorant redneck, is counterproductive.
While there may be a story in the candidates' deliberate language choices, it's trivial compared to the content of their messages and history of their actions.
And to Tom Hale #139: I don't think it's ignorant to pronounce Pakistan with a short 'a' (although others obviously disagree), but it is certainly ignorant to mock someone for pronouncing it differently. If "[t]hey couldn't care less about the proper way to pronounce nuclear or Pakistan" then why is this even an issue? Obviously, some of them do care about what they view as the proper way of pronouncing it, enough to call Obama's rendering ostentatious. That doesn't sound to me like "concentrat[ing] their intellect toward more practical endeavors."
Pack-is-tan is the correct English pronunciation. In an English langauge broadcast, it is proper to use the English pronunciation.
If you watch a news broadcast in any other country, I guarantee they will pronounce "United States" in the appropriate local way (Esta-thos You-nee-thos in central America, etc.) and that is perfectly correct.
When someone "breaks" into another language's pronunciation during an English language broadcast, I find this to be irritating and pompous.
Esta-thos You-nee-thos
That don't sound like no Spanish pronunciation that I ever heard, bubba.
It's almost as annoying as when British judges on reality TV dance shows pronounce "mambo" to rhyme with "Rambo."
Es-taa-dhose Oo-nee-dhose, mas o menos.
#139:
Well of course, why should we expect people to trouble their simple, comfortable lives with extraneous knowledge? Why should we expect them to care what their government does overseas, or where their food comes from, or what's in their water? Why should we think they would want to learn that homosexuals are people, good and bad like everyone else, and not disease-ridden monsters out to defile their children? Why would we want to disturb the calm waters of their consciousness with things like Abu Ghraib or Guantnamo? Why would we wish to disrupt the certainty of their worldview with things like carbon dating and the fossil record?
Because we have to fucking well live with them, that's why. We have to live with the impact their ignorance has on our personal lives, our freedom, our relationships with other nations, our health, our jobs. And yes, it's ignorance. Willful ignorance. The information is available, accessible, understandable. You can't "pray away the gay". The Earth is not 6,000 years old. Dinosaur fossils weren't put there by Satan. Humans are the descendants of early ape-like hominids. Dissent is not treason. Saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is not a hate crime. Barack Obama is not a stealth Muslim Marxist atheist radical. And I shouldn't have to say any of this. It should all be obvious. It should be common knowledge. It should be godsdamn common sense. But thanks to your "simple" friends and their deathgrip on our society, it isn't. So you'll excuse me if I don't care about insulting your content and productive comrades. Their vision of society and government causes real harm to others, not hurt feelings.
Tom Hale: you must shed your christian and american skins if you wish to survive. A planet in crisis needs humans, not tribesmen.
The one that always drives me up the wall (given that I lived for 6 years in Japan) is that nobody on US TV or radio (even, to their everlasting shame, NPR) can properly pronounce Kyoto or Tokyo.
It's Kyoh-toh guys, not Ki-yo-to. Two syllables. Long vowels.
I also regularly crack up over the horrible Japanese that's spoken on Heroes. My wife runs from the TV room screaming in pain.
Today's right-wingers: Ignorant, and proud of it.
William F. Buckley Jr., meet your intellectual heirs.
You know what words I can't wait to hear Obama pronounce? "I, Barack Obama, do solemnly swear..."
And conservatives wonder why liberals look down on them.
I figure the correct pronunciation of "Pakistan" is the one used by the guy who runs the really good halal chicken cart at 23rd & Flatiron: Bhaakistaan.
The last time I got a cabdriver who admitted he was from Iran, he pronounced it Persia.
Why do different countries have funny ways of saying each other's place names? Because for a long time, people didn't learn place names from the people who lived there. They learned them from books, and the books were unreliable. You can tell our scholarly language used to be Latin because we say Greece rather than Hellas.
You also get place names being happily mangled by foreigners who only use the mangled versions with each other. Doughboys said Wipers for Ypres. English sailors turned Livorno into Leghorn. And so forth.
Lukobe @44, New York has a lot of accents. Some are rhotic; others aren't.
Historybuff @55:
Depends on what they're correcting. Sometimes they're right. Other times, they're astounding ignoramuses.IvyMike @61, I have no idea why McCain says "Warshington", seeing as how he's a Zonie.
Takuan @77, lots of Lands of the Broke this month. The financial system needs to come unstuck, and fast.
New Challenger @82: yes, as in gossoon.
Justin France, JBang @84, congratulations on switching over to your real name.
Elk @85, obviously, we all care. What's your problem?
Anonymous @90: where do you stand on supercede and vermillion? (I have a single very firm opinion about both.)
Donal @93, I'll swallow it all, as long as you'll promise me you don't pronounce that last word tchoobs.
IAmInnocent @116, to whom is that comment addressed?
Maddy @132: "If you could see what I've seen through your eyes..."
I love that speech.
Allen @133, we don't get it by deserving it. We get it by asserting it.
Tom Hale @139, that's spectacularly condescending in all directions, and I don't like it a bit. What I like least is your portrait of them as simple, happy, practical prople with no odd quirks or intellectual enthusiasms. They have the same right and tendency to those as anyone else.
The second most dislikable part is your privileging of "practical", and setting it in opposition to "intellectual". That's a class-based separation, not a natural one. All my life, I've been randomly finding that "intellectual" data has immediate practical application.
The third most dislikable part, the one Antinous has pointed out, is that you've excused them from their responsibilities as citizens. Back when rural life was real, not a marketing affectation, people in rural areas subscribed to newspapers and debated politics. Real farmers tend to be extremely well informed.
People whose occupations are genuinely local take an interest in larger issues because they understand how they're related to their lives. Only the deracinated salarymen and peons of the global economy can pretend that larger political issues don't matter.
Anonymous @147, if you've read this far down the thread, it's because you've taken an interest in the conversation. We've done the same. Where's the problem? It's not like this discussion is displacing others we're therefore not having. It's added to, not instead of.
#153 - I disagree with you on 90% of what you posted, however if I were to point out why, this thread wouldn't be about how Conservatives dislike the way Obama pronounces certain words. And, while what I say may be only countering your points, I doubt if it would be allowed to stay as is. No worries, that's just the way it is - which is really why I'd rather not talk about homosexuals,Abu Ghraib/Guantnamo, religion, or an imagined deathgrip that my friends may have on our society.
#154 A Country Boy Can Survive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4s0nzsU1Wg
Teresa, I don't think of the people I was referring to as simple in it's negative context, but they are happy, content, practical people. When I say practical, I mean they apply their skills and intellect towards things that help them out in their day to day life, their work, or in the things they enjoy. I know a few "intellectuals" that many of these practical people consider dumbasses. Sure, they can spout big words, or quote "real" intellectuals all day long, but they lack simple common sense.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, "...with no odd quirks or intellectual enthusiasms."
I do know that I can't compete in a debate against you. You have way more ammo than I do, but I do know that it's pretty easy to take almost any comment and counter every point. Plus, you're the last one on BB I'd want to argue with - not just because you're the Moderator, I also respect your opinion on matters. There are only a few I disagree with.
"Parmesan" entry from Wikipedia - "Parmigiano-Reggiano is a hard, fat granular cheese, cooked but not pressed, named after the producing areas of Parma, Reggio Emilia, Modena, Bologna, in Emilia-Romagna, and Mantova, in Lombardy, Italy.
Parmigiano is simply the Italian adjective for Parma; the French version, Parmesan, is used in the English language."
"Parmesan" - here's more from Merriam-Webster -
"Parmesan of Parma, from Middle French parmesan, from north Italian dialect parmeźan"
Metronicity
I enjoy how, depending on what side of the earth is receiving light from the sun, this thread alternates between important political considerations and, well, cheese.
The most insightful posting is #156: the *National Review* was founded by William F. Buckley, Jr., who raised affectation in pronunciation to an art form (and the person writing this is a Bostonian with a mid-Atlantic accent). The absurdity of associating the NR with a Coors is palpable.
By the way, the Latin name for Deutschland is Germania, which may be related to the Latin word for brother, germanus. It goes back more than 2000 years, like Greece (
well, i'm actually from pakistan (lahore to be exact). and honestly, i kinda admire the fact that obama actually went through the trouble of at least TRYING to pronounce the name correctly.
and no, it's not just pronunciation. there's a lotta people over here who call the usa "amreeka" or "amerka". wouldn't it really annoy you to hear that?
pronouncing something correctly is like a small gesture of peace in my opinion :-)
For every time I got mocked in school for pronouncing my ancestral homeland pock-i-stawn, now I can say Petraeus and Obama have my back on it.
Dear Tom:
I too can skin a buck and run a trot line. In fact, I'd prefer to. I am still worried. You should be too.
Mt Head 88: This reminds me of another case: Burma/Myanmar. I don't see eye-to-eye with the Bush administration on much, but I do agree with their continuing to call it Burma. The military junta calls it Myanmar; Aung San Suu Kyi calls it Burma. I know which I'd rather say.
Not only that, the generals changed the name because some diviner told them it was more auspicious for them. If it is, I'll call it by the inauspicious name, because I wish all those generals would drop dead, and if it's nonsense, I'll still call it Burma, to show solidarity with the people of that benighted land.
Thanks, btw, for the information on Bombay. For similar reasons, no more 'Mumbai' for me!
Donal 93: ...as an Irishman who has spent his entire working life listening to American colleagues unable or unwilling to correctly pronounce "Ireland" (2 syllables not 3, not exactly hard) or my name...
Is your name pronounced DOUGH-null? And should it be rightly spelled "Dónal," but BB doesn't allow the correct character?
And I pronounce the name of your country AIR-yuh (near as I can spell it). I thought that was right! :-)
Insomnia 98: Who would've guessed Gaelic?!
I didn't know that one either, but there are Irish Gaelic borrowings into English that are more familiar than you may realize. Ever hear anyone say "there's a whole slew of X here" or something like that? 'Slew' in that sense is from Ir. slua "host" (as in "a multitude of the heavenly host"). Also 'crack' meaning "smart remark" is from Ir. craic "fun."
Victor 102: You missed the bottom part of the OP, where Mark says "oops, it's Obama they're snarking about." The point being, Obama says it the same way Patraeus does, and they don't snark about Patraeus: that is, more conservative bullshit.
KMoser 151: It's almost as annoying as when British judges on reality TV dance shows pronounce "mambo" to rhyme with "Rambo."
I loved it when Peter Schikele confessed that he was pleasantly surprised that Sylvester Stallone had made a film about a French poet.
Don't get me started on British RP. The BBC is absolutely horrible when it comes to names in other languages. 'Sarajevo' is not pronounced Sarah JAY Voh. Nicaragua is not pronounced Nick a RAG you uh. And...damn, I let you get me started.
Skullhunter 153: Bravo (unless you're female, in which case Brava)!
shahryarrakeen For every time I got mocked in school for pronouncing my ancestral homeland pock-i-stawn, now I can say Petraeus and Obama have my back on it.
Good! Or, of course, you could tell the mockers to shut their ignorant provincial traps, or just to fuck off and die. They deserve no less IMO, but perhaps you're kinder than I am.
Xopher,
Burma and Zaire might have been renamed by dictators, but Bombay goes in the rubbish heap along with Siam and Cathay. Hindu nationalists might be crazy, but wanting to get rid of a British-era name in favor of a local one isn't evidence of it. Getting rid of Hindi terminology in favor of Marathi names isn't evidence either. India is a very, very uncomfortable conglomeration of several dozen countries with their own languages and ethnicities. Uttar Pradesh doesn't represent Maharashtra very well at all.
All right, so I keep Mumbai and ditch Myanmar. Sounds like a good deal! :-)
Antinous -
"Bombay" was home to an amazing diversity of cultures, languages, and races, and could fairly be called the cultural capital of India.
"Mumbai" is the capital of Maharashtra and is ruled by a party (Shiv Sena) which would like to expel anyone who's not Marathi. My friend's family happen to be Punjabi, and suddenly having to call the city of their birth by the name of someone else's goddess (Mumbadevi) sticks in their craw.
I'm an American, and have never been to India; my instinct has always been to be PC (as I saw it) and call the city Mumbai. I've now heard another side to the story, which led me to do a little research, and it's back to Bombay for me (without nostalgia for colonial days, Flashman fan though I am.) You, of course, may choose as you see fit; my original point was simply that it _is_ a choice, and not as clear-cut a choice as it might seem.
By the way, "Bangalore" recently renamed itself to the original "Bangaluru" - which turns out to mean "boiled beans." Fair play to 'em, I say.
My friend's family happen to be Punjabi, and suddenly having to call the city of their birth by the name of someone else's goddess (Mumbadevi) sticks in their craw.
I can't see how an Anglo-Portuguese version of the same word is any better. Does colonialism make local religion tastier?
I can't see how an Anglo-Portuguese version of the same word is any better. Does colonialism make local religion tastier?
That argument rests on an assumption that is by no means settled: you assume that "Bombay" is a corruption of "MAIAMBU"; a hell of a lot of scholars (and ordinary Bombayites) think it's a corruption of sixteenth-century Portuguese for "good bay". That particular linguistic argument has been going on for a long time and shows no signs of stopping. "Mumbai", however, is unambiguous.
A parallel situation: many cities in Eastern Europe and Central Asia got renamed with Soviet monikers, and many have reverted to their ancient names. Favoring one name over another is obviously a political statement.
Some people in the city we've been discussing feel that the city's ancient name has been restored; others feel that a new one has been imposed. It just so happens that this new (or ancient) name has been restored (or imposed) by a political party that I, with many, find repugnant.
And I wouldn't have any problem with 'Myanmar' either if the change hadn't been made by (and to favor) a group of people who may be the worst people in the world other than Al Qaeda. Bombay it is.
But he pronounces "jackass" American-like, right?
As far as the pronunciation of 'Pakistan' is concern everyone can be assured not even us natives pronounce it the same way identically.
Your native tongue or languages plus dialect always effects or influences your speech. Regional wise perhaps Asians though pronounce it correctly majority anyways.
Lemme help yas out it's Paak is taan since amrikanos! lol
“We do not list the pronunciation of "nuclear" as \'nü-ky&-l&r\ as an "acceptable" alternative. We merely list it as an alternative.
Oct 8, 5:39 P.M. Mitch said,
"m-w.com lists both "nuclear" and "nucular" as
correct pronunciations of "nuclear". I'm curious
to see what dictionaries published before we had
Bush as president say.
It sounds like he's pronouncing it correctly."
--------------------------------------------------
m-w.com actually says, http://www.merriam-webster.com/help/faq/pronounce.htm
We do not list either the \ ÷ feb(y) wer \ pronunciation of February or the \÷ nü-ky l (r) \ pronunciation of nuclear as "acceptable"; we merely list them as commonly used pronunciations. Both of those pronunciations are clearly preceded by the obelus mark \ ÷ \ (which looks like a division sign). This mark indicates "a pronunciation variant that occurs in educated speech but that is considered by some to be questionable or unacceptable." A full description of this can be found in the Key to Pronunciation Symbols. We are definitely not advocating that anyone should use those pronunciations or that they should abandon the others that are regarded as more acceptable.