Oregon man threatens suit for the right to video-record cops on the job
Ben sez, "After a Portland, OR man videotaped two Portland cops hassling a couple of men on a downtown sidewalk, one cop seized his camera and gave him a ticket, saying he'd broken the law by recording the officers without their permission. The District Attorney's Office declined to prosecute, and now the man is trying to force the Portland Police Bureau to take a formal position on whether it's OK for civilians to videotape cops -- with sound -- in public places."
Portland police spokesman Sgt. Brian Schmautz said he believes the public doesn't have a right to record officers' conversations - on or off the job - without their consent.Man threatens suit over seizure of videocamera after he tapes Portland police rousting two men (Thanks, Ben!)"Just because somebody is a police officer doesn't mean they give up their rights," Schmautz said.
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"Just because somebody is a police officer doesn't mean they give up their rights," Schmautz said.
and
"police were citing ORS 165.540, which makes it generally illegal to tape-record a conversation without first obtaining permission except in cases where a person wouldn't reasonably expect privacy, such as at a public meeting or sporting event."
That's the crux-- "public" meetings. Police are public servants, everything they do on the job is open to public scrutiny, no matter where they are. They can't drink alcohol, and they shouldn't be harassing people or even expressing a political opinion-- they are supposed to be impartial to everything except transgressions of the law. Once they are not on the clock they revert to public citizens and they get the right of privacy back.
Public servant in a public space performing a public duty?
You CAN be far enough away so that any audio is possibly unusable - but the video may prove invaluable, because I think the only way to 'weed out the undesirables' is to show their supervisors (and the general public) EXACTLY what they did 'in public' (like the Rodney king incident in LA, and that cop knocking over that cyclist at that big ride).
Forget whether it's a cop or not - if this kind of thing were illegal, we'd never have, for example, paparazzi. The law is nearly self-evident.
As uncle Ben said, "With great power comes great responsibility." Police officers have great power, and occasionally (if rarely), they abuse it. With their power they should have to carry the responsibility of working under additional scrutiny.
If Joe Cashier at the 7-11 screws up at his job, the worst thing that happens is that his register is short by a couple bucks. If Officer Dick screws up, somebody might get shot. Joe works under constant video surveillance to ensure that the owner doesn't loose any money. Is Dick really complaining that he shouldn't have to be watched to ensure that nobody has their rights trampled?
Everybody has a right to privacy in their private lives, but when you work in public, and have the authority to beat / taze / arrest / shoot people, isn't it reasonable that you should put those rights on hold while at work to make sure you're doing your job properly?
No Taser? I thought Portland's finest were exemplary in that regard.
As the cops say, "If you're innocent you have nothing to hide."
I guess they don't necessarily practice what they preach.
I guess the whole HS diploma thing must be optional for the Portland PD. Without launching into boring legalese, it should be sufficient to point out to people like the good Sergeant that all individuals in public suffer a loss of expectation of privacy. If it's OK for the PD to put cameras on street corners, have dash-cams and use photo radar, then it's OK for Joe Citizen to video tape the cops while they're out walking around. You won't win any popularity contests by doing it, but it's not illegal here in the U.S. unless, say, you were taping the person without their consent to use for some commercial purpose. But I don't see that happening here.
Look at the cops stance, wide, with arms crossed, confrontational. He's spoiling for a fight. Whatever this man was doing, the cop as nothing on him, yet. He's hoping to push the man into doing something stupid. Look how he provokes the man, asks questions designed to put him on edge, to get him nervous, to make him trip up and say or do something. he cautions him about "getting too close" to put him off guard physically as well. This is a cop looking for trouble, neither serving, nor protecting the public interest.
He needs to be held to account, and a third party filming does just that.
The Portland Police haven't beaten any mentally challenged people to death for at least a couple of months now, so I bet they're getting antsy.
Also, the Police Union's plant on the city council is suffering a rather public embarrassment as his hatchet job against the lesbian Chief of Police blows up in his face. There's got to be somewhere for all that pent-up testosterone to go.
And when I say "plant," I don't mean as in "they planted him there," I mean as in, "he has the nervous system of a plant."
Important story. I have to ding the author for this unintentionally hilarious line:
"Haile noted that Potter's bulletin was issued shortly after Rodney King, a black man who was stopped for speeding, was videotaped by a bystander being beaten by four Los Angeles police officers."
Speaking as a Portland native, I can tell you this is not uncommon for the PPB. Portland is very liberal, but the cops here tend to act like small-town cops: they make things up, and hassle who they feel like. Twice, I have called 911 to report assaults (one on myself, the another someone else) and have had the police not show up for an hour and half, then try to frame me as the guilty party despite witnesses. I have also witnessed several times groups of on-duty (by their own admission) cops hanging out drinking coffee, making jokes about how they are ignoring their radios while urgent dispatch calls blare in the background (they turn up the volume, then ignore it.)
We've all seen videos of cops on the duty taken from a camera within the cop car itself!
Are the cops saying those violate their rights too?
Oh, reading the story further, I found this choice quote:
Deputy city attorney Dave Woboril said he'll review the incident, but said that Oregon's law is "pretty complicated."
The law is COMPLICATED, said the CITY ATTORNEY.
The world has finally caught up with "The Onion"
i live about five blocks from where this happened, and we see it a lot around here. portland is a nesting spot for homeless people and generally suspicious (though probably just shady in appearance, not deed)-looking people. this is also right next to PSU, so you have a whole secondary fleet of cops with nothing to do but give these fellows a hard time.
it's becoming a problem here (the cops, that is)...and it seems like elsewhere as well.
Nice to see that "Serve and Protect" (at least to this officer) means "Harrass and Shove." This cop should be fired. Plain and simple. IT might seem harsh, but police should be held to a HIGHER standard if they are going to enforce the law, not cruise around like jackbooted thugs.
I've heard some bullshit where if you video record a cop without their knowledge and there is sound they can get you on a wiretapping. Its an odious and moronic technicality.
personally i think an on duty cop should be video and audio recorded every moment of their working day, and if a citizen files a complaint, the information could be subpoenaed.
If you have no right to privacy when working at a call center, and any conversation with a customer can be recorded, the same should be true with police officers.
they're on a job, they need a solid system of quality control.
After serving for six years in the army to see beat cops harassing the citizenry makes me see red. I work hard to protect an america that has been slipping away. Cameras on the streets watching me, cops trying to make me guilty of things that I am not. this is the world my kids are raised in. The police are supposed to be the protectors but now the people fear them, it used to be the other way around.
@#13
The law is COMPLICATED, said the CITY ATTORNEY.
Actually, I think what the city attorney meant was that he'd have to look the law up, but it was complicated getting a copy to look at.
I may be wrong, but don't most public surveillance video cameras and dashboard cameras just record pictures not sound?
I don't know his name but I recognize that officer, and I've never seen him not acting like a douche.
"As the cops say, "If you're innocent you have nothing to hide."
Any $25 lawyer will tell you to keep your mouth shut until she gets there.
That statement works only in a dream world where the justice system never makes mistakes. Ask any of the innocent guys released after years in prison because of DNA.
Even without corruption/brutality, police are concerned about the part of their job that 'innocent citizens' are never supposed to know about. Like beating up 17-year-old kids for sitting in the street.
So then according to this guy it is illegal for any CCTVs in Portland to record cops? They can films us but we can't film them. Nice...
mgfarrelly: Are you suggesting that just because someone is a city attorney he should not find the law "complicated"? I daresay Supreme Court members find many our laws exceptionally complicated.
#22: with sound is the important distinction and the thing they can get you on in most areas.
Can anyone say 'Napoleonic complex'?
Gee, I wonder if Officer Shortandstout was ever bullied as a kid.
"Two By Two, Hands of Blue"!
Just like in Serenity!
I just watched the whole video and not a single tackle or taze. What's this world coming to?
@19 You're kind of wrong - just watch many of the shows on tv which air dash cam footage with audio. Models vary, some get audio and some don't.
"After serving for six years in the army to see beat cops harassing the citizenry makes me see red. I work hard to protect an america that has been slipping away."
And I bet there's a pretty good chance these latest victims were homeless vets who have already been given the shit end of the stick by the country they served.
The Portland police have a history of getting all jacked up on steroids and then when they're not falsifying time cards, they're beating the shit out of defenseless people, often killing them.
It makes a splash in the news but they never get held to account for it. The Police Union is too powerful.
When they got caught in an *organized crime* scheme to falsify time cards a few years ago, defrauding the city of hundreds of thousands of dollars, they didn't even have to pay it back! The Police Union is too powerful.
"Once they are not on the clock they revert to [private] citizens and they get the right of privacy back."
In reality, police officers are never private citizens. When they aren't 'on duty' they are 'off duty' and they are still police officers fully empowered to enforce the law at any time. That is why they carry their badge and an 'off duty' firearm. They can arrest you if you commit a crime or they can give you a 'lawful order' to which you have to comply once they have identified themselves as a police officer or you risk arrest for 'failure to comply'.
""Just because somebody is a police officer doesn't mean they give up their rights,"
...No, that's "Just because somebody is a police officer doesn't mean *WE* give up *OUR* rights!"
Do your job like your supposed to, and you won't need to get taped, coppers...
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
follow-up interview with joe anybody:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI9r1ruHI4U
I think TRIP@32 said: "Who watches the watchmen?"
While I'm a confessed camerahead, let me play the part of the advocatus diaboli:
Why is it ok to videotape anything you want in public but it is wrong for Govt and businesses to do the same?
I'm not from Portland, but if any locals there want to get involved in holding cops accountable, Copwatch seems to be active there.
http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/
There's a documentary called These Streets are Watching about Copwatch in general and specifically about the (now defunct I think) Cincinnati Copwatch that arose from the frequent killings by cops and subsequent riots. You might be able to find a torrent somewhere.
i say throw technology at the problem.
if cops get antsy and combative if they SEE you with an obvious camera/camera-phone and ask you to shut it off, i suggest you bitch about it, but comply. they need not know about the OTHER not soo obvious camera(s) and mike(s) secreted elsewhere on your person. heck, if your lucky the goon will take the obvious camera from you and smash it in full recorded view of your hidden camera. then sue away in the relative safety of a court of law rather than attempt to confront an armed bully out in the open. perhaps if that plays out enough times the cops will lose some of their arrogant swagger.
As a member of the media I can tell you this: You have the right to video/audio record ANYTHING that can be seen from public view. If you can see it from the sidewalk or road you can take a picture of it or record the sound of it. Period. Only when you are on PRIVATE property or you are hiding the fact that you are recording do you risk breaking wiretapping laws. The reason the cop asked if it was recording sound was because that is the basis for wiretapping laws. The prosecuter knew better and dropped the case. You as a citizen actually have MORE rights than I do as a member of the media when it comes to videotaping in public.
But at least Officer involved shootings are down 48 percent the past five years and use of force complaints are down 34 percent since 2004.
Fuck the pigs. They are *our* public servants. If they don't like being recorded while they're *doing their job*, then they should get a real, honest, job like the rest of us.
"Just because somebody is a police officer doesn't mean they give up their rights,"
Someone should remind him that speaking or appearing in public
gives up the right-to and expectation-of privacy
@IRSEAN
Nice twist--my answer is that it is the difference between human and 'robo' surveillance--cctv and the like are hooked up to all kinds of Carnivore-like automated systems, that multiply the potential for abuse and misuse exponentially. The camera-wielding individual is much less wired, and faces the classic photographers' dilemma of having to confront the subject personally.
Here is a webpage
http://www.joe-anybody.com/id116.html
with more information by the videographer regarding this issue. What is not mentioned in this forum here is: the police report tells a different story compared to what the Joe Anybody's video shows. Which compounds the plausiblity that this shakedown was uncalled for and not forthright making the ability to film even more viable
~Joe
Who will protect us from police on a power trip? The photographer needs to file a state charge of police harassment and abuse of office.
Ah, the good old bullying, pugnacious, mean, wicked, and nasty cops of Portland. You have to feel sorry for the mass of men in post-industrial society. So beleaguered and emasculated are they that some are reduced to parading around in the costumes of authority and hassling the underclass. There is war, but that only leads to a lifetime need for PTSD therapy. So sad. What are we left to do, men, with our unneeded genitals? It is a real problem.
And now, on a different matter, someone had mentioned in one of the earlier comments that Portland was a liberal city, but the cops were more like small town cops. I find that funny. The implication being that liberals are somehow more peace loving than people of other political beliefs. I've always found cops in small towns to be unfailingly polite and helpful.
And while we're at it, I've lived in many cities, and nowhere have I witnessed more inhumanity and cruel indifference than from supposedly kind hearted Portland liberals. Their self-righteous, smug, bougie, self-satisfied (to borrow from Menand) arrogance probably rivals that of what one may find in Paris.
It is true, however, that the cops in Portland are nasty and that the courts are corrupt. I found this out, as I've mentioned before on this forum, when I disrupted a right ring book reading at the hallowed bastion of enlightenment in Portland known as Powell's Book Store (where a particularly odious concentration of Portland liberals can be found at all times). Powell's had me thrown in jail after which time I had to perform slave labor at the Catholic church - (prepping Christmas lights at the Grotto for their grand holiday Christmas light extravaganza in the pouring rain and cold!.
In any case, to all Portland liberals out there: if you think your fucking cops are out of control, do something about it. Use some of that money that you spend on your ridiculous tattoos, and piercings to change the corruption in your city, you self-righteous, hypocritical motherfuckers.
or you are hiding the fact that you are recording do you risk breaking wiretapping laws. The reason the cop asked if it was recording sound was because that is the basis for wiretapping laws.
This is absolutely not true. There are only 10 or so states that require both parties consent for a conversation to be recorded and Oregon is not one of them.
@ #20 H_Wrabbit
"I don't know his name but I recognize that officer, and I've never seen him not acting like a douche."
I wonder what would happen if a group of people in your neighborhood started an anonymous blog and started documenting douche-like behavior?
I think the cop has short man's complex. Aside from that, I can not believe he shoved the guy on camera. If the guy had stepped up on the cop and shoved him he would be in jail already.
#43: Sigh, you had me right up to the book store story. I don't see how anything that you wrote is an example of government corruption. You had to put up Christmas lights in the rain? Wow, scary, that's like one step away from being drawn and quartered.
This cop should should be diciplined just on the basis that he told the guy on the street to back up, and when he did the the cop stepped forward and pushed him back anyway.
It looks like all this will really be a turning point in Portland though.
Oh and one more thing, I don't know where small town cops got the bad rap, but they're usually the most unfailingly polite people in law enforcement. It's the "king of the city" cops you have to look out for.
Pyros is BB's version of Ignatius J. Reilly, for reference.
There was a show called COPS. It videotaped cops. They still managed to do their job while acting noble for the camera. If you try to film the police just convince them you are producing street segments for COPS, and you're making the cop a star.
"Just because somebody is a police officer doesn't mean they give up their rights,"
No they just take away yours
The law states that no conversations can be recorded, no audio, no case.
Also there public servants in a public place, they can be video taped on duty by the PUBLIC to show the public what they do or don't.
Wow! WTF was the officer pushing the guy for? Sure, he wasn't pushing hard, but it was obviously meant to provoke a reaction, and was unprofessional.
Then they move out of view of the cruiser-mounted cameras and one officer tries to stand in between the onlooker-with-camera and the other officer. The phrase "thick as thieves" came to mind.
But more to the point: the courts have ruled that I, as a private citizen, aren't allowed an expectation of privacy on public streets, in publicly-accessible buildings, at work, or in my car, but this officer is giving up his rights because he's a police officer?!
The Oregonian article identifies the short cop as Dane Reister. He's was accused of engaging in similar intimidating behavior without provocation earlier this summer:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/07/377226.shtml
Also he was accused of provoking a riot by beating two drunken teenagers on New Year's Eve, 2001:
http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/PPR23/crowdcontrol23.HTML
Bad cop, no doughnut.
I guess it is true that only a dunce would care about the American underclass, or the underclass anywhere, for that matter. I even feel bad for the cops, really, since they have nothing left to do with their coruscating manhood other than hassle men who weaker than they (in a marshal sense) and, I suppose, drive a big truck.
Anyway, the cops aren't really to blame and never will be. In any random collection of men most can be expected to be posturing bullies to some degree. They just do what they're told, and what they're told is basically sanctioned by society. It's not the fucking cops, its us. It's the enlightened liberal intelligentsia. It is only from this quarter that we can ever expect any surcease of this madness but I guess they're all too busy scanning the aisles of Powell's so that they might read about some humanitarian crime in Tanzania for their delectation.
Coruscating! Surcease! Delectation! Oh, rapture! Calgon, take me away!
Well, can you blame that poor cop? Think about things from his perspective for a goddamn minute. How do you think you would feel being the only midget on the police force? How else should we expect him to act? He still only has the brain the size of a walnut, and proportionately as much testosterone running through his veins as any other blue cotton clad tyrannosaurus.
It is upon this rough beast that we place the burden of upholding some kind of abstract moral code? It only cares about getting lunch (which we observed it do, to its credit). Would you have interrupted this in any other natural setting? Wouldn't you have expected it to have eventually charged any other camera so poorly concealed and carelessly held?
Therefore, I personally think that it is completely absurd to blame him for anything other than going to work in pants that aren't well pressed. Very, very convenient though. But what do I know? After all, I too belong to the underclass so I expect to be dismissed.
Like the cop, I'm an idiot too, and I give myself a helluva lot of credit for being able to admit it. In fact I think there ought to be some kind of advocacy group so people would stop scapegoating us for things we clearly can't help, but then who would organize it?. Do you know what it is like for people like me who have an IQ ten points above mental retardation? You're still too stupid to every know anything or ever do anything right, but technically too smart to gain any sympathy for being retarded or qualify for government assistance. Worst of all is being just smart enough to comprehend this plight!
How foolish of me to think, for example, that this incident would ever cause anyone to look inward.
We all get to blame the ape for being an ape, we get that romantic feeling of moral outrage that makes us feel superior (or at least something), we get to cheer for the underdog on TV, AND when it all passes we get to go back to our dreadful and meaningless lives until we get to witness the next incident of some cop beating, harassing, or killing someone that starts the cycle over again. Who in their right mind would ever want to upset this arrangement?
Surely the archetypal cop posts are a reliable way of satisfying BB's readership. I can't count how many I've seen over the years. I always wonder why the wise and compassionate people of our society don't do anything. Then I realize what a big fucking idiot I am for thinking that they exist in the first place. I guess everything happens for a reason even if I don't always understand what that reason is.
The fact is, I have to admit having enjoyed watching the video too. I'm just as bad as everyone else which makes me think that maybe we should find a way of getting rid of the underclass. We can either elevate them or euthanize them because right now I'm beginning to suspect that they and the little circuses (replete with midgets and monsters) they become involved in only exist for the sake of idiots like me. That can only mean something bad is happening. I at least know this.
No, only the government has the right to watch YOU, silly!
The guy in question is Joe Anybody, he observes and tapes cops on duty on the streets and during protests.
Someone above posted a link to his site, here are a couple of other articles authored by him on the local Indymedia site.
The initial post detailing what happened:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/03/373979.shtml?discuss
And the latest detailing the Tort claim he is presenting:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/09/379622.shtml