Man whose US immigration notice was sent to the wrong address is detained with untreated spinal cancer until he dies, denied access to his wife and children
As he lay dying, his family -- wife and two children, aged 1 and 3 -- were denied access to him while the warden considered their request to visit.
"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses..."
But his condition continued to deteriorate. Once a robust man who stood nearly six feet and weighed 200 pounds, his relatives said, Mr. Ng looked like a shrunken and jaundiced 80-year-old.Ill and in Pain, Detainee Dies in U.S. Hands“He said, ‘I told the nursing department, I’m in pain, but they don’t believe me,’ ” his sister recalled. “ ‘They tell me, stop faking.’ ”
Soon, according to court papers, he had to rely on other detainees to help him reach the toilet, bring him food and call his family; he no longer received painkillers, because he could not stand in line to collect them. On July 26, Andy Wong, a lawyer associated with Mr. Cox, came to see the detainee, but had to leave without talking to him, he said, because Mr. Ng was too weak to walk to the visiting area, and a wheelchair was denied.
On July 30, according to an affidavit by Mr. Wong, he was contacted by Larry Smith, a deportation officer in Hartford, who told him on a speakerphone, with Mr. Ng present, that he wanted to resolve the case, either by deporting Mr. Ng, or “releasing him to the streets.” Officer Smith said that no exam by an outside doctor would be allowed, and that Mr. Ng would not be given a wheelchair.
the latest
latest episodes
http://www.icj-cij.org/
...You know, one day everyone's going to finally get tired of hire-a-cops, and it'll be *them* put up against the wall before the lawyers.
Bastards.
Once again, my government shames me.
Oh, that's an awful story. It seems to be across the industry though - we have similar stories here in Australia, and it's almost always "contractors" that are the failpoint.
smile
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/chertoff.html
are
you
effing
kidding me!?!
this has been rediclous. the saddest boing boing ive ever read.
rip
over and out.
im sick and tired of "someone do something"... and all that bullshit. its time to stand up and just do! stop trying, stop wasting time, stop talking... just do!.!.!.>!>!>!>!>!>!>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with the sentiment.
This is fucking ridiculous.
How do we let this happen?
I agree that this is ridiculous, though I'm not exactly sure what to "do" to stop this. Complaining to the TSA/DHS seems to produce nothing.
I'm not saying there's no solution, I'm sure there is, but I have no idea what that solution is.
Every one of the individual involved with the detention of Mr. Ng should be prosecuted for his death. EVERY - LAST - ONE !
There is NO excuse for this and those inhuman individuals are doing those reprehensible things in my name.
Unacceptable.
That is NOT what I put my life on the line for in the military - the people I was protecting were those like Mr. Ng, not those refusing him basic rights supposedly granted to ALL in this country.
My only hope is that someone with enough power to make a difference becomes incensed enough to force very, very serious legal action against all involved.
This is America - land of the stupid! As much as this shocks me and I am more embarrassed to admit I am an American, I am not at all surprised by this, I'll bet good money that these guards that treat people like this are trained by our US Military. People we are governed by IDIOTS in America. Sad to say, but oh-so-true.
The terrorists win again. I bet they didn't expect to be /this/ successful when planning 9/11.
I feel sick.
fuck. that. shit.
what do we do?
It's just incredible that someone, at some point, witnessed Ng's ordeal and thought, "this is the right thing to do." Was it neglect? Was it due to poor training and a culture of fear, or sadism in uniform?
How could anyone allow something like that to happen? It's disgusting.
Can we start separating the reasoning human beings from the bullies, criminals and animals... now? Please. Let the bullies fight it out amongst themselves elsewhere and let me and my friends live in peace. I'll relocate, really, but we need a wall between us.
Call your representatives. Call them and demand reform. Write them and demand reform. That should be for first thought anyway, if that doesn't work we move on to other methods.
our entire penal/healthcare/immigration/dhs/cia/federal reserve/everything=forprofit bullshit system needs a giant, warm-yogurt enema. serious cleanse. the military industrial complex has taken over our country. the corporate profiteers have mercenary armies made up of u.s.ex-navy seals. empty fema camps waiting, waiting. our prez., looking wasted drunk, copping feels on the women volleyballers and falling over in the stands. we need a serious purge. nothing that b.o. or j.mcc. will bring. how was it allowed to get so freekin whorenduhz? ah iz baffled.
Call your representatives. Call them and demand reform.
Yeah, that'll really show 'em!
People, we're way beyond "working within the system for positive change." You have to have a functional system for that to be possible, and the US is not the shining beacon of democracy you think it is. (Was it ever?)
The only answer to the fascistic evil that permeates our government and its agencies is armed insurrection. Too bad Bush's War has made ammo so scarce here in the Homeland.
Surely Congress hasn't immunized these contractors from suit? Surely?
I think I just became Pro-Death Penalty.
what do we do? we support his family to personally sue every single person who refused him medical care
Now that people in greater frequency are getting chewed up by this system of giant unaccountable cogs spinning at reckless velocity in tandem, DO YOU SEE THE MACHINE NOW?
Now that entire lives are getting ruined on a whim with no recourse, our basic rights becoming null and void in practice, our inalienable liberties discarded by the unthinking shadow men who frame our policies, pulling the puppets' strings, DO YOU SEE THE MACHINE NOW?
Now that we've outsourced to thugs what was totally unthinkable to any previous generation because of inherent conflict of interest with barely a yawn from the mainstream populace, DO YOU SEE THE MACHINE NOW?
It's time to raise hell in the streets! It's time to tear down the layers of hypocrisy! It's time to DEMAND a restoration of our founding principles of justice and democracy!
A bunch of people really need to go to jail for this.
The saddest part of this is that no one who read the story was surprised.
INDIVIDUAL@15: They're waaay ahead of you on this... Do you like Cuba this time of the century?
Wake up Americans, you're living in the most oppressive regime of modern times - North Korea has nothing on you. A country of those who fought for freedom, not only their own, but that of the world, now turned into a police state with noone accountable for their extreme actions.
I'm already suffering from outrage exhaustion, and I don't even LIVE in the US. I sometimes wonder if half these stories are actually true or some psych experiment played on a national/international scale (hell maybe its all true and STILL a psych experiment on a national/international scale) to see how long before people actually do something...
btw if you as a people hold out longer doesn't mean you get extra cake you know.
It looks like the US can no longer be considered a civilized nation, welcome to the barbarous decay of a once free country.
This story saddens me deeply. Do those involved realize what they have done? This was someone's son, someone's father, and someone's husband. Are those involved simply heartless monsters? Is there really such a necessity to deport productive respectable members of society? I often react to such stories about America with the belief that it is an "American" issue and that I simply would not move there. The scary thing is that this reflects upon us all as part of humanity. Pointing an laughing and not standing up against such cruelty is almost as bad as being part of the system.
Yet another reason never to go to the US: after they copy the contents of my laptop and phone, they post a letter to the wrong address, lock me up and watch me die.
This story is sickening for so many reasons, and it is yet another reason why I feel ashamed of America's current policies toward immigration, health care, and law enforcement. That said, something in this story caught my eye, in the very beginning. Quote: "the DHS sent a key notice to the wrong address". I am so sick and tired of the fact that our own government is so terrible at being able to contact its citizens and legal residents. I personally suffered through months of hell and anguish because the IRS seized the entire contents of my bank account because they had sent notices of a tax audit to the wrong address, and proclaimed me guilty due to my lack of response. It took me 6 months to overturn the findings of the audit and clear my name, whereas Mr. Ng's immensely more tragic situation had a much sadder outcome. I am not a fascist, nor do I trust my government, but I am an advocate for developing a trustworthy and transparent database of resident's mailing addresses and/or email addresses, to prevent the thousands of costly situations like this that could otherwise be avoided.
As Lauren O said, the saddest thing is that I'm not surprised by this obscenity.
Every time I read of this sort of thing, I'm reminded of GWB's family history, and what his grand-daddy got up to.
How in the hell does a nation founded on freedom manage to give authority to these petty minded uniform fetishists? Sheriff Teazle and his type are practically the stereotype of a small town sheriff, despite the thousands of decent men wearing the badge.
There are times I think of emigrating to America, but then I think of her government, and turn away with a sigh.
I am contacting my representative's and senators' offices over this, not because I believe it'll do any good but because I'd be a bad person if I didn't. Then I'm going to inform as many of their constituents as I can about this story.
I've heard at least one story of someone who died in a local privately-run prison while begging for medical help that was denied him. In the case I know about, the victim's death was relatively sudden, but the prolonged agony involved here...I have to stop typing when I try to wrap my head around it.
It seems reasonable to enumerate all of the information of the people involved. Publish their full names, their home address, phone numbers, social security numbers.
Ruin them.
I blogged a bit about this over at monochrom; thanks for blogging about it here as well, Cory. You might want to add a link up top to the NY Times Topic Page on "In-Custody Deaths" -- they are making it their business (as of course it is) to not only report on this, but to keep the reportage in one place and to provide outside links to other useful information.
All of this is appalling and shameful. Each story that I read there fills me with more despair; each detainee is treated as if they are guilty of some unspeakably horrible crime, and denied even palliative care when they are dying of horrible diseases. The more light that can be shined on this situation, the better.
Sorry, forgot to plop in the link for the page I mentioned, the NY Times Topic Page for "In-Custody Deaths": http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/immigration_detention_us/incustody_deaths/index.html
Yet another criminal offense committed by the trifecta of idiots at the "top." Remind me why we can't fire these employees?
Thanks to all here who are pointing out positive actions to be taken. I hope everyone reading and posting here follows through. Additionally, I recommend supporting your local ACLU, and groups like Amnesty International who are fighting daily to end this kind of abuse.
One way or another this darkness got to give...
We're #1
We're #2
We're #3
We're #4?
We're #?
Gee, imagine if this guy had gotten a shred of the attention that Terry Schiavo received.
Does anybody know if there are any funds set up for the family where people can donate? This is honestly one of the worst cases of mistreatment I've ever heard of, and even worse because it's a privately owned prison it isn't subject to the same responsibilities as government facilities, so the corporation is going to get off lightly (though the individuals involved are at more of a liability)
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security
We are seeing more and more stories like these were the people we entrusted certain tasks to (upholding our laws and ensuring our safety) are either doing a bad job or abusing their roles.
We have to take action now to prevent the tension building up to breaking point as I don't see any winners from the conflict that would arise...
I'm truly worries, am I alone?
Oh great, look for more stories about the total worthlessness of the truely fucked up DHS.
Elect me president; the next day I'll close their doors.
> he no longer received painkillers,
> because he could not stand in line to collect them.
This sounds like one of the pervert things my Grandparent's generation did in Germany.
"Of course you can have painkillers, just line up there! You can't walk anymore? Well, I'm afraid, you will have to pick up you medication yourself, it's the law."
This is exactly the inhumanity small people in Germany showed while hiding behind buerocracy.
I cannot imagine how desperate he was, being stuck in the bad dream of Kafka the US has become, always hoping to wake up.
It might be a good talking point in a discussion that in the past, say, 5 years... the DHS has caused more people to die on American soil than terrorist attacks have.
May I propose a motto?
"Here to protect you even if it kills you"
1) RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
2) NYTimes is still living in the 20th century and thinks I'll register to read an article -- you might want to replace that link with a different source. Until then, Bugmenot for the win!
@ #36
We're #2!
I'll second that.
Unicorn chaser? *whimpers*
http://www.weirdly.net/artwork/images/HeilDHS.jpg
#45: Unless the victim's side of this story is made up out of whole cloth, I cannot *imagine* what the perps might have to say that will remove the bile taste from the back of my throat as I am once again ashamed to be an American.
This sort of thing comes from the top down, and once again the "top" sat in the stands at the Water Cube waving our flag backwards while this went on and while Russia squashed Georgia. Georgia provoked Russia at US' provocation, have they learned nothing from the fate of the Kurds?
The man would be an embarrassment to have in charge of a hot dog stand, never mind a country.
@ #45, I get where you're coming from but no amount of explaining is going to change the fact that someone in U.S. custody was denied adequate medical care apparently out of spite (or a perverse desire to get a "dirty no-good illegal" out of the country) and this utterly inhumane behavior either contributed to his death, or at the very least contributed to his misery during his last days.
I sincerely hope that this isn't a widespread issue, but the fact that it could be and that the current administration seems to have an attitude that so long as they can deny it then it's ok doens't make me think that it's going to be limited to just one or two cases.
This episode is truly disgusting and I'll think back to it every time I hear some jack
ass talk about how proud he is to be an American. I still respect the principles that this country is founded upon, but the last 7 years have really shaken my confidence. I would have never imagined that we had these kinds of evil and incompetent bastards working on our behalf.
RE: Ken Hansen
Why are there people who have this pathological need to be contrarian?
"What happened was inexcusable.. BUT BUT BUT!"
Don't be such a TSA quisling. Moral outrage is an acceptable response to manslaughter by incompetence and indifference.
And by TSA, I meant DHS. Not that there's any difference. :-P
Thank goodness our government is protecting us from these illegal foreign terrorists! I sleep better at night knowing that these diligent protectors of America are on the job!
This is the predictable outcome of outsourcing an important government function. No one aware of the history of the U.S. penal system would have found this difficult to predict, once the decision was made to farm detainees out to contracted facilities. This was done as the deliberate policy of this administration. So while your post is superficially correct, Ken Hansen, you miss the point completely. We are being governed by a greedhead for the benefit of his fellow greedheads, and he does his crimes in our name, and will continue to do so shamelessly until he is stopped.
I'm speechless. What a sad story.
@#45
I understand that you are trying to help us not fall for certain reporting tricks that tend to inflame situations.
But, I disagree, this man was detained until he died...
Let me explain...
DHS detained him....he got sick and wasn't treated. He got sicker, and wasn't treated. He became immobile and unable to help himself, and still was not released to a hospital or any form of medical care...he died.
This is not a case of man gets detained and then died while detained because of an accidental slip.
The phrase "detained until he died" sends the culpability for this dreadful crime right where it belongs...this was no accident. He was murdered through neglect.
Donopolis
What do we do? Here's my thoughts:
First of all, check yourself. Are you seriously that angry/upset about this, or do you just vaguely wish it hadn't happened (or at least you didn't have to read about it)? Do you realize the full significance of the injustice, what you would wish people had done if you were the victim?
Second, commit yourself. Contemplate your outrage seriously and thoughtfully for a while. Ask yourself whether you're willing to commit to doing whatever it takes to end this kind of injustice. Ask whether you're prepared to dedicate a significant chunk of your life to this. Not just a few minutes of petition-signing or ranting, but hours of serious organizing every day.
If you aren't, go back to "check yourself". Why not? Maybe it's not for you, but ask yourself why and answer honestly without dodging or giving excuses.
If you're unwilling to commit, consider if you can do anything to change the reasons for that. Many people's lives change radically when they get up the courage to work wholeheartedly for change - yours may need to as well.
Once you've made the decision to commit - seriously and somberly - the rest will come far more easily. Once you've decided that you'll spend no less than 4 hours each day working to end DHS injustice, you'll start discovering the specific strategies of organizing people and forcing authority to pay attention. That part is child's play compared to the willpower and conviction needed to get started in the first place.
@25
I think we know there's something terminally wrong with this country. Address your complaints to our government and it won't be heard, blame the mass of people and you've only got half the country's powerless ear.
A great number of we Americans are idle sheep, parroting whatever we hear the talking-heads say to make our points.
Those that do understand and care what's going on are either on drugs to help with the terminal depression or actually trying to do something about it.
That said, I'm not ashamed to have been born an American. I am, however, ashamed for the country and ashamed to be associated with such a horrible government. I am ashamed to be a member of modern America, but if the country had continued to run as it was intended it wouldn't be so bad.
This is one terribly sad case in a string of them. Someone mentioned the truly sad thing is that not one of us was surprised by this story. I'll emphatically second that - this and all the other this-agency-did-this-contemptible-thing-to-this-human-being stories are slowly allowing the majority (and yes, sadly, it is a majority in this country) to see humans as nothing more than animals, criminals.
Any brit guys out there want to take me in? We can bugger off to somewhere less crappy!
Nothing can be done about Mr. Tuttle... I mean Buttle.
This man was my co-worker. My friends and I at work found out about it yesterday. We all thought he was deported back to Hong Kong. We never knew about his detention.
This story makes me sick. It also hits closer to home knowing a tall thin unassuming asian co-worker could be held as a threat to the U.S. A man I worked next to for many years.
This event makes me ashamed to be an American.
-S
http://www.wyattdetention.com/index.cfm?L1=1&L2=40
@63 Mr. Gorch
These I assume are the people who murdered Mr.Ng? Interesting website, the annual report is quite revealing. Much money to be made jailing.
Why is it, do you suppose, that they found it necessary to include a breakdown of the imprisoned by race in the annual report? Do they get more for some than others? I cannot think of any financial reason at all -at least not in keeping with accepted accounting principles.
I have seen similar lists though. They were divided by categories like "jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies, feeble-minded..."
I hope his family contacted the ACLU while this was happening. Very sad indeed. Does our military fight to protect this sort of cruelty? Obama better start filling his mega-enema bag, because DC is in need of a rightious purging.
This story reflects and lays bare so many of our country's current problems:
- Reflexive, unmerited hatred of immigrants.
- Reflexive, unmerited adherence to the wording of rules rather than their intent.
- Reflexive, unmerited privatization of just about everything.
- Reflexive, unmerited stupidity on the part of voters, representatives and people generally.
This series of events was an abomination. All Americans should be ashamed of themselves; we all let this happen.
Ken Hansen - Well written comment about the dangers of manipulative reporting, but...
When I go to a store and receive lousy service it is the direct result of either an incompetent or uncaring management. It is management's responsibility to create policy demanding good customer service, hire conscientious empathetic employees, regularly train and monitor those employees, and value and act on customer feedback. Management is always responsible. Whenever management fails to accept responsibility for every act of their employees they create an environment where no one feels responsible. When this happens at a store customers stop shopping there, when it happens at a prison people die.
Tak, race is what the American penal System is all about.
This guy would have been properly cared for if he had been a white Canadian.
This is "cruel & unusual" treatment in my books, and is symptomatic.
The entire American leadership "elite" is rotten to the core...replace the lot of them. There's only what? 600 members of congress +2 pres/vice + 9 Supremes? While you have 300 million citizens/subjects.Don't seem like a lot of people making these bad decisions, and the Am. System is in fact designed so that they can be replaced without violence.
After all they got lots of aid to Georgia, Asia much faster than they got any to downtown New Orleans after Katrina...that's unfair, I know, New Orleans did not launch a surprise mass artillery attack on a civilian population center in the dead of night like the Georgian Army did, so helping them wasn't as urgent as helping the Georgians, but still...
My personal fav comment above is "Nothing can be done..back to your games" a la elysian. Thanx for your confidence, your attitude guarantees success...
The parallel prison system for unclassified immigrants existed for years before 9-11. People are sent there and kept until they die; they have no appeal, and they are at the mercy of their captors. It is a life sentence. And there are thousands of prisoners in an unknown number of uncared-about camps in the US, run by private corporations.
Recall a couple of years ago, when Kellogg, Brown and Root announced (on Haliburton's web page) the happy news that they had received contracts from the US to build detention camps around the US for even more prisoners, for "immigration emergencies" and "other projects"? Those should be done now. Ever wonder who will wind up in those for life? Or what they are truly for? They specified tens of thousands of beds...
Right now I'm reading the Lucifer Effect - it makes an interesting backdrop for this story. If anyone wonders how we could systematically dehumanize people the way we did in this case, in Abu Gharib and Guantanamo, in our prisons, in our military, and in friggin TSA lines, it's worth taking a look through this book:
http://www.lucifereffect.org/
@Jeff:
The USA contends that those held are illegal immigrants not covered by the Constitution and are therefore not under the jurisdiction of the courts. And yep, this concept was a precursor and a test system that evolved into the Gitmo series of prisons around the world. You boil that frog slowly. Next step is to set up a system to reclassify Americans themselves as terrorists and therefore could be transfered outside the world protected by the ACLU. But, of course, that already has been done, with the passage of the Military Commissions Act.
Man, the photos of that Wyatt Detention Center sure are grim. Look at the "recreation program":
http://xrl.us/onk2x (Link to www.wyattdetention.com)
splendid link, like the images
http://www.lucifereffect.org/dehumanization.htm#faces
"New candidates undergo eight weeks of basic training, and then complete an 80-hour field officer training program. To maintain their professional proficiency, all officers are required to take 40 hours of in-service training each year"
"Two and a haff munths ago, I cou'ent eben spel "brudal prizzen gaurd"! Now I is one!
"we've become a fascist state!"
Look... I think this shit has always happened, and the difference is now with the magic of the internet we hear about it and communicate about it. Blissful ignorance and all that.
Therefore, our NUMBER ONE charge must be to preserve the freedom of the internet and all other means of communication.
Our NUMBER TWO charge must be to only vote for people who will fire, prosecute, legislate, etc where necessary to stop people from doing bad things in the name of the US Government.
Alternatives include: Doing nothing and stop reading if reading this stuff makes you disgusted, violent revolution (generally a bad idea and not suggested until we fail at our NUMBER ONE charge or they take away our ability to vote -- see NUMBER TWO charge), or maybe we should convene a continental congress? Peaceful revolution possible?
#59 Zizak - or anyone else for that matter.
I see lots of us typing out our outrage over this matter but few suggestions about what to do about it other than writing our representatives or joining the ACLU. As my own outrage over events like this and others mounts both of those options seem feeble.
I want to hear more, and learn more about real solid viable things we can do to stop this sort of abuse. Realistically most of us don't have 4 hours a day to devote to this, but we can all carve out some time. What we need to know is how to most effectively use whatever time we have.
You privatized your jail ? !!! I don't how to put this gently, but isn't that a stupid idea?
"Therefore, our NUMBER ONE charge must be to preserve the freedom of the internet and all other means of communication."
too late. Should have protected all the Ngs and others when it was their turn. Now the DHS (the supreme,unaccountable authority that can seize you and kill you at will for no cause) has clearly announced web freedom is over. Too,too late.
"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses... for we need someplace to piss."
How do they get this guy who has been living here for 16 years, but not the guy who is mowing everyone's lawn for the local landscaping company who is living illegally with his 7 other illegal immigrants in a studio in new jersey...
WTF??????
You privatized your jail ? !!! I don't how to put this gently, but isn't that a stupid idea?
How dare you question the obvious superiority and efficiency of free-market solutions and the infallibility of the invisible hand?
I was almost ready to curse the whole country after reading this. After some thought however, if this would've happened in China (very likely) no one in the world would even know about the story. As a Chinese I don't think I am qualified to criticize the US government on human rights issues.
how about as a human?
What country is this? What decade is this?!?
I'm on the phone, folks... this is too much...
@80
How? Because Mr. Ng followed the rules and did everything right. It was a government error that killed him.
It is an exceedingly bad idea, Daniel. I'd pair it with the fact that the mayor of Albuquerque and the governor of New Mexico felt like we didn't have enough policemen/prison guards/law enforcement, so they recently lowered the standards for recruiting and allowed people with previous convictions to be hired and given a badge (especially domestic violence, which is a tremendous local problem. An officer recently beat a camera man from one of the local stations. The officer has a history of domestic violence and had been kicked off the force for beating up detainees and was then rehired under those provisions for more officers. He went on to beat up that camera man on camera. Footage was on the news. I believe he is still on paid administrative leave.)
Albuquerque is getting very bad, indeed. I just, last night, was talking to a friend about this. She told me a story about being in a local clothes store (which has a unisex dressing area) and having a man let himself into the room and try to rape her. She fought him off, threw the first things she grabbed on and went out to call the police. The store refused to let her use the phone and the manager told her she was obviously insane and that anyone who dressed like she was (again, in what she grabbed, which was a mini-skirt and a tank top) deserved what she got. They kicked her out of the store without her clothes, threatening to call the police because she was 'disorderly.' She had to walk home to call the police. When she did, the officer kept asking her why she was in public at the time of the alleged assault (in this case a dressing room) in indecent clothing (her bra and panties) and told her she deserved what she got. When she finally, under her own steam, got to the ER for them to examine her, the orderly asked her out and gave her his phone number. He wouldn't take no for an answer. She's telling me this story standing in her kitchen and she keeps asking me if it's okay that she's angry, if I would be angry. I hear that a lot when people tell me their stories: because they are treated as if what has been done is normal, they aren't sure what to do about it or if they've been too sensitive. And most of the people I know cannot afford a lawyer and therefore have little recourse.
I'm ready to kick some ass, myself.
I won't burden you with the local prison stories, but it troubles me that we want to rationalize them away by morally condemning the person exposed to the prison and the mistreatment for whatever their mistake (or, in this case, the DHS mistake). I believe that what I am doing, talking to people about these stories in the classroom and person to person and keeping these stories afloat, as well as talking about the pertinent laws, even though the reaction is often strongly negative ('cause no one wants to hear it) is very important. This is in addition to voting and contacting my representative. I think we have to do something about it in a broad sense as well as in an immediate sense, and to my mind, a lack of critical thinking skills and civics has gone a long way to causing and continuing this problem.
Hey is there not an election on on your side of the border?
If no action now then when....
Human rights are universal not based on nation/race/creed.
And people complained about San Francisco's Sanctuary laws.
Anything to keep people out of this horrible system.
What country is this? We seem to have too many issues with home-grown thugs and hardly need to seek them out in other places. It's a problem that can only be solved with AI. We have shown ourselves to be a most untrustworthy species, prone to fits of barbaric, horrible behavior. Maybe a machine mind can baby-sit us.
its like cube, its built by tiny tiny subcontractors and no one knows how it runs and no ones running it.
but it keeps hurting everyone.
#65: But what is Obama's view on all this? Or does he evenhave a view on such things at all????
Looking at things like this, make me wonder if this country still has any claim to be called the "land of the free"..... it ceased being the "home of the brave" the day the Patriot Act was signed into law. imho.
...I've begun forwarding this story to a few friends who are active in politics. Also called my senator... planning on a few more calls here... pissed, boy am I pissed...
I think the warden at that private detention facility could use some email.
http://www.wyattdetention.com/index.cfm?L1=1&L2=40
two years ago
Politics : Law RSS
Chertoff's 'Web of Terror'
Reuters Email 10.17.06
Disaffected people living in the United States may develop radical ideologies and potentially violent skills over the internet and that could present the next major U.S. security threat, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on Monday.
"We now have a capability of someone to radicalize themselves over the internet," Chertoff said on the sidelines of a meeting of International Association of the Chiefs of Police.
"They can train themselves over the internet. They never have to necessarily go to the training camp or speak with anybody else and that diffusion of a combination of hatred and technical skills in things like bomb-making is a dangerous combination," Chertoff said. "Those are the kind of terrorists that we may not be able to detect with spies and satellites."
Chertoff pointed to the July 7, 2005 attacks on London's transit system, which killed 56 people, as an example a home-grown threat.
To help gather intelligence on possible home-grown attackers, Chertoff said Homeland Security would deploy 20 field agents this fiscal year into "intelligence fusion centers," where they would work with local police agencies.
By the end of the next fiscal year, he said the department aims to up that to 35 staffers."
I've been saying for a long time that we need to abolish for-profit prisons. Why do you think that, of any country in the world, we have the highest percentage of our population incarcerated? "Get tough on crime" is another mistake. Long prison sentences don't do any good vs. shorter ones. That's just demagoguery designed to move the masses to vote for the people who will pass the laws to help the fat cats (who own the for-profit prison companies) get fatter.
The idea that the Constitution doesn't apply to non-citizens is another absurd ruling by a (mostly) GOP-appointed SCOTUS.
I don't know about RI, but in NY I think (IANAL) that this would fall under Murder Two (Depraved Indifference). If the people who made these decisions don't go to prison (and let's make sure they get shipped off to Texas, which has the most brutal for-profit prisons in the country)...well, it will confirm that my once-great country is now under the bootheel of an oppressive oligarchy. Which we knew.
Next time someone tells you there's no difference between Republicans and Democrats, think about the SCOTUS, and this case. Spit in their face and never, ever speak to them again.
Anyone who votes for any Republicans this fall is supporting this kind of thing. Private "contractors" (why don't they just call them what they are, which is hired thugs?), privatized prisons (and everything else), more SCOTUS appointees who don't consider anyone who isn't a white heterosexual male natural-born citizen making more than $100,000 a human being, and incidentally more war, war, war.
Do I know for sure that a Democratic POTUS will be better? Well, he'll be a LITTLE better for sure, whereas another GOP POTUS is guaranteed NOT to be any better and may be far, far worse.
Oh, and: DHS must be abolished. Not "reformed," not "cleaned up," not "managed better."
Abolished.
And whatever we replace it with, no one who worked for the current DHS should be eligible to work for the new one. (This was INS specifically, but I'm talking about the DHS administration, not the agencies under it.)
I think that the wrong people get to leave that prison at the end of the day.
You know what bugs me? When people argue that illegal immigrants/terrorists are not subject to the Constitution therefore we should be able to do to them whatever we feel is necessary.
It seems that they've forgotten that the same people who wrote that Constitution also wrote, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The Constitution doesn't grant anybody rights, it guarantees them. Specifically for American citizens - but the rights patently already exist. To ignore them in the treatment of anyone is to spit on the graves of the founding fathers.
all these constitutional authors would find themselves behind bars today.
I agree, Leprechaun, but the SCOTUS has ruled that the guarantees don't apply to non-citizens. I believe the specific case was a Canadian actor who was deported for criticising the Reagan Administration.
Sometimes SCOTUS stands for SCum Of The US.
Also, spitting on the graves of the Founding Fathers appears to be a required ritual for any high position in the Bush Administration.
Funny how the internet itself has become a "threat" .... at least rhetorically so, for some people.
" Damn that sharing, damn that free flow of information! Oh we'll be needing more money and power now...we are sure you won't miss it..."
@ #98...
Sadly, you may be right. But going to try anyway, if only for my conscience...
Come to think of it you really do need to elasticize your logic to see the internet as any kind of threat at all, instead of the obvious boon to freedom and culture that it is.
No easy money jobs "monitoring" if that's so, though, eh?
This makes me sick to my stomach. The people responsible for this should be lined up in public and shot.
Well, I joined the ACLU in May. I don't know if that will make a lot of difference but I'm sure it will be more effective than bitching and whining on a message board.
This kind of thing just disgusts me. Literally turns my stomach. When did America become the torturers, indefinite detainers and deniers of human rights?
It was easy to let this gradual drift from liberty and fairness to 'security' happen and it will be very hard to correct.
And elysian is wrong as wrong can be, things insensibly change through the minute decisions of the masses and multitudes, things are already and constantly changing, a simple yes or no at the right time from any of us could and can change the world and has changed the world in the past...and there is more time for positive change than any million of us experience, we share this world with thousands of millions of others...... the "elite" are men and women like you or I and they too must use the same tools that we do, language and persuasion and the consent of the governed....and I think Elysian may have difficulty in perceiving changes anyway...'cause he doesn't really want anyone to try to change things...doesn't want to be proved wrong...things had to change to get here, did they not? Because for damned sure they were not this way before the Reagan-Bush years...
vagabond,it ain't just conscience. Apart from a twice-a-decade-Diebold-defrauded-vote, your only participation in your fate is writing to the bloodsuckers in the hope that a million angry letters will plant the seed of fear and direct their behaviour. It's VERY important. The WANT you to feel so helpless that there is no point in even complaining. Bitch, bitch, BITCH! Only a total fool or poltroon remains silent.
It is very important to avoid violence. If violence finally comes, the authors will be those who kept silent and did nothing until the repression becomes so grave that the only response is violence. Any who do not timely condemn evil are complicit in that evil. Do you want peace? Do you want freedom?
NEVER STOP complaining! NEVER KEEP QUIET!
@#107...
I lived in Palm Beach in 2000, and let me tell you, the guhvment here in Florida goes through extraordinary pains to make the populace feel that they haven't a chance.
It gets very depressing, I admit, and trust me, the urge to cut and run to Toronto gets pretty strong at times. But thanks, Takuan, for putting it back into perspective.
Power to the people. Let's raise some hell...
Right again Tak.
Anyone who says "Don't bitch, it won't make a diff"...doesn't have enough experience bitching...or, if he's dishonest, maybe has had to do too much in the past in response to same, or actually likes things as they are and has no wish to change anything...bitching is what freedom is all about.
The attitude ( "Don't bitch,etc.") is called "defeatism" and spreading the same is called "psyops".
Can we revolt yet?
To everyone who said spread the word of this and publicly humiliate anyone involved in this - I say more power to you.
Call your congresscritter. Scream at them. Vent your rage. Donate your time and money to the ACLU, or the EFF. Spread the word tell your friends.
It works. The worldwide public outrage and humiliation of those involved in the Robert Dziekanski case is still reverberating in Vancouver.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/12/america/NA-Canada-Taser-Death.php
@ lakelady:
You say a lot of people don't have 4 hours a day to spare. 4 hours was just an example, I don't think there's anything special about that amount of time, but even still, this is the "consider why you can't commit" part.
Why don't people have large amounts of time to dedicate to fighting systems of injustice which seriously threaten us all? We have large amounts of time for an awful lot of other things, for example: hobbies, socializing, watching tv/using computers, working more hours than we strictly need to avoid poverty...
Obviously doing those things shouldn't be condemned, they're great. But it's important to acknowledge that the majority of us do actually have a lot of time, it's just currently unavailable because we've committed it to other things. The question to ask then is whether your existing commitments are more or less important than the one you're contemplating.
As for specific things that people can do, I'd emphasize again that the commitment to actually do anything is the hardest part by far, that after that we just figure things out naturally. The coolest, cleverest plans in the world are worthless to people who don't have the conviction to actually carry them out. Conversely, the simplest, lamest actions become immensely powerful when pursued by people who are seriously committed.
That said, the best starting point I can suggest is to form a group in your area. Not a Facebook group, but an actual physical group of people that want to fight the same injustice as you. Meet regularly. Give it a name, and pretend like it's a real organization, like the ACLU or something. Do 'actions', which can start out as simple as handing out flyers at a public event. People WILL join your group. If they don't, it's not because people are pathetic sheep and cowards, it's because you're not trying hard enough. It may take time to build. Keep excitement up by inventing new actions rather than doing the same thing again and again. Make press releases along with your actions. Do disobedient or disruptive things sometimes to force attention to your group and the urgency of the issue. When your organization starts building into a "movement", start making real demands and targeting your actions to effect real changes. Don't hinge your actions on certain politicians, and don't compromise. That's for other people to do.
One or two dedicated people can, from nothing, over a few years, build an organization which can profoundly impact local and even national awareness. It doesn't provide instant gratification, but it absolutely can be done, and absolutely can make a serious difference. So once again the question to ask is: Why aren't you doing it?
I sent the following to my Senators and Representavives:
The link below details the abuses of the Department of Homeland Security. Their actions are a disgrace and a sad example of the way our government has lowered itself. How can we as Americans sit idle, while this organization, in our name, acts like a totalitarian police state.
The link only details documented cases of their abuses. How many more go unreported because there is no family on the "outside" watching these monsters? I ask that you take a hard look at the budget and charter of this organization, and see if they are serving the American public, or if they are just thugs hell bent on destroying the American way of life.
We are a nation of immigrants, not a nation that kills immigrants!
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/immigration_detention_us/incustody_deaths/index.html
TheGorch #63: thanks for the link (and Takuan #64, according to the NYT article, yes, it was Wyatt where Ng was improsined). Over 40% are there for drug offenses, and over a third for immigration. And the racial statistics, which I agree seem to have no place in a financial report, were stunning: 49% Hispanic, 27.2% African American, and only 13.3% Caucasian. Meanwhile, the city of Central Falls received close to $7 million in kickbacks over a fifteen year period, and Wyatt claims to have brought an economic benefit to the community to the tune of $42 million.
My heart goes out to Mr. Ng's family, and anyone else that is suffering at the hands of such profiteering bureaucratic thuggery.
Now an honest question, that I know is naive: why is it that we consider free travel and association such basic rights, but draw the boundary, literally, at the national level? What makes our rights more inalienable than those of, well, aliens? Why don't we just throw the doors wide open? I'm serious; I'm sure there are logistical issues in dealing with a population influx, but is there any fundamental reason other than xenophobia that we don't allow everyone to come on in?
"All Americans should be ashamed of themselves; we all let this happen."
That's a load of B.S. If anyone here knew that it was happening I guarantee that the good folks at BoingBoing would have made it known to the public and the response would have been overwhelming. Feel free to hang your head in shame, even though it does no good. It would be far more productive to see that the contractors that killed this man are held responsible for his death.
something for the guilty to think about: the murderers at Dachau and Auschwitz are still hunted, sixty three years later.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/usa1
ZikZak is correct, but if you can only do a little, a tiny bit, do it. Every little bit helps. Even if it's only to relate yer disgust with this (raising awareness) to someone else, a neighbor perhaps, or at the coffee machine, in any and all the little social places where interstitial "politics" takes place...you never know where something will lead...a word in an ear, not letting a casually dismissive or brutal comment slide by unchallenged...may get others more able to change things to think about it...it is still doing something, anything, "on the side of the angels". Conscience may demand more from some but some are constitutionally cowards, I suppose, but that is not worthy of comment nor condemnation IMO. People are free, and part of that is the freedom to not do anything. I mean I'm more concerned with the crimes of the state that any individual's 'crimes' against her own conscience, and I'm not going to lecture anybody about their civic duty. Except public servants.
This makes me mad as Hell! Any idea of who I can write to about the contracting company handling this mans detainment?
@#113...
"...why is it that we consider free travel and association such basic rights, but draw the boundary, literally, at the national level?"
No, you said it; xenophobia, a severe case of "us-versus-them-itis". Happens to many countries, seriously, and the very idea of blurring or eliminating national boundaries gives many people heebie jeebies (look at the situation in Georgia right now. I mean, hey, come on, if the Ossetians identify more with the Russians, just let 'em go. But nooooo....).
As for me... what's a boundary except something to be ignored? This is just tribalism.
I don't have a BoingBoing account, might actually create one later. I did bitch at everyone representing the great state of Texas in Congress about this. (At least, I griped at those that my super magical zip code allowed me to bitch at.) Anyone else to add to the my gripe list?
On another note, I shared this article with friends and family. My family pleaded with me to not lodge a complaint with anyone in office. They think I shall get placed on the Terrorist Watch List and will have a heck of a time flying down to see them on holidays. Additionally, most of my family are Republicans.... it's sad.... just sad......
and how will you measure it?
USA! USA! USA!
*sniff* God Bless America!
....wait. What? Were you saying something?
Reading this story breaks my heart. I can't imagine what the family is going through. I hope justice is served on the men who did this to Mr. Ng.
Hi Lexington . review thread above re: "defeatism", you sly ol' dog.
And it was the Republicans who wielded the knife, you know, even if Ms. Pelosi was "on watch".
Rest assured people are reading these blogs and the comments they attract. Do not underestimate the way in which this affects public opinion or policy. The ways in which this site and others can be used to change policy are just now being realized. There are companies that clip every article, listen to every newscast, and read every blog and comment, the data they collect is very valuable to businesses and politicians. This site ain't chopped liver. Takuan posted the numbers a few days ago, if you missed it click on the red FM logo top right.
And her "watch" - going on what - almost 20 whole months now...
this is not an issue of domestic American power politics. This is a test of humanity.
Aaaah...what was it that Goebbels wrote in his diary?
something like: "What our enemies fail to understand is that to defeat us they must become like us...so we can never lose."
Add Value or Subtract Yourself
Yeah Tak I've posted several times that yer whole "elite" needs to be thrown out as not being up to the job. Simple as that. Lexington is a partisan, I think. I am not even an American.
But his tone says it all, I think.
There's little reason to 'lecture' people or make them feel bad for their lack of action. But it is sometimes valuable to help well-meaning people clarify for themselves exactly what the appropriate response to this kind of injustice is. In the world most of us live in, most of the people around us consider complete apathy the baseline, and the height of political outrage to be when someone calls their congressperson. This can lead well-meaning, passionate people to feel disempowered, to feel like embracing their convictions isn't an option, or would be aberrant and 'fanatical'.
In fact, when we look at unjust systems in other places and at other times throughout history, we always wonder at why the people there/then didn't take drastic steps at the time to stop it. It's important to collectively remember that taking drastic action in situations like this is both possible and reasonable, so that those who are ready to accept their responsibility feel empowered to do it.
To the people who for whatever reason are unwilling to commit seriously now, I would suggest doing small things now, because it is true that they help. But don't do them as a quick fix to assuage your conscience - if you think about the gravity of the problem in comparison to your small actions, you'll feel even more disempowered than before. Instead, think of each small action, each conversation you hold, phone call you make, as practice. Practice for the bigger things you'll ultimately undertake in the future, once you're able. Realize that in addition to making a small impact now, you're preparing yourself to make big impacts in the future, because you do actually have a lot of power.
ELYSIANARTIST@98: You have made several posts now in this same thread with the same defeatist message. Care to make a suggestion like many others here on what can be done? If you want to go play with your iphone, so be it, but there are ways we can effect change and will. If you are trying to motivate people to prove you wrong: ok, but I hope you are also doing what you can to address this issue in your own way. If you are using what you say as an excuse to do nothing, then you have your answer as to how atrocities like this got carried out in the first place: Too many have been made to feel powerless by this repressive regime. You are handing them a white flag, and lying down to be trampled upon by the boot-heels of misplaced authority. Give yourself some credit! You can reclaim the power that has been usurped from you. Just the act of trying makes me feel a lot better, personally: to be a part of a solution is to not be a part of the problem. As has been suggested by ZIKZAK and others: A little effort each day begins to stack up after a while.
As for why the financial reports include racial demographics: That is obviously to report to their "shareholders" how well they are doing their job. Their real objective is to marginalize certain sectors of society that pose a voting threat (and of course, make ridiculous amounts of money while you're at it, Halliburton style.) Lock up all of those who experiment with altered states of consciousness (who might begin to peer beneath the veil of control) and all of those who emigrated to this country because of the promises our forefathers made (holding us accountable to our espoused core beliefs) as well as the minorities who have been the first to feel the lash of oppression and injustice that have become the mainstay in this country and you have removed a major obstacle to those able to vote for the status quo of subliminal fascism. This is the real front of the culture war we find ourselves in. This is how they steal your right to affect change (vote) one by one. Once corrupt puppets get into specific niches of power, they toss out or gerrymander whole sectors of votes, and we get eight years or more of unconstitutional oligarchy running the show, eroding the fabric of democracy bit by bit, trampling the rights and lives of all who stand in their way. If someone were to make a representational graph of how little of our democracy is currently still being practiced, in the form of the the Constitution, we would probably have a 1mm square remaining. We wouldn't even have "We the people..."
As for using violence to affect change: I refer to the immortal words of John Lennon: "As soon as you react with violence, they know exactly what to do with you. Using humor and creativity in protest are the only things the establishment are not prepared to deal with." Let's be creative and vocal; steadfast and uncompromising in restoring liberty to this country.
This is the kind of story that starts turning otherwise useful, productive citizens into dangerous subversives.
We have seen the enemy, and it is us.
the devil cannot abide to be mocked
@Elysianartist:
What is your objective? Is it to justify your own lack of action by convincing others it's futile, or is it to convince other people that they have to be even more active than they are?
If it's the former, you're wasting your time - there are many more powerful and well funded interests already doing that job.
If it's the latter, you're not doing a very good job. Concentrating on all the things that someone can't do is not a good way to get them to try new things.
Agreed Phikus: Violence they know how to deal with very well indeed.
Other things, not so much.
Sun Tzu: Know when to fight, and when not to fight. Choose the ground.
Yeah those Texas repubs sure go after those gerrymandering Dems...
Anyway give the Dems a chance to undo the past decade's worth of Republican gerrymandering...fair is fair.
And its Repubs who put these policies into place, eh? I mean torture, etc.
And these are agents of the Executive Branch we are talking about here.
I think your Elysian's older brother, aren't you?
The Lone Ranger and Tonto are camping in the desert. After they get their tent set up, both men fall sound asleep.
Some hours later, Tonto wakes the Lone Ranger and says,
"Kemosabe, look at sky -- what you see?"
The Lone Ranger replies, "I see millions of stars."
"What that tell you?" asked Tonto.
The Lone Ranger ponders for a minute then says, "Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of galaxies. Timewise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three in the morning. Theologically, the Lord is all powerful, and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What does it tell you, Tonto?"
"Tell me you dumber than buffalo shit. Someone stole tent."
If its structural change you want, why not mandate free-time political broadcasts during election years on all FCC regulated outlets as a condition of holding their licenses?
Might drain a little of the power of the mighty $$$ from your elections.
Instead of trying to freeze-frame the gerrymandering the Rep. controlled Congress has put in place.
Regardless of what the people think the USA was never intended to be, nor should it be, a democracy. Democracy is not what you want. Democracy is Jim Crow laws and 'marriage is between a man and a woman. It is fear and panic and worry about the hole in the roof only when it is raining.
You all know that what is right is not always what is popular. Why would you want a government based on what is popular?
A rep congress ain't gonna go after Bush either. but a Dem super-majority in both Chambers...
LEXINGTON@122: Gerrymandering can be fought. It actually shows how valuable your vote still is. You spew a lot of defeatism and hatred, and so you play right into the hands of those you would hold to blame. Here in Texas, we were redistricted illegally several years ago by Tom Delay specifically to get rid of liberal democrat Lloyd Doggett. (He was the main one on the GOP's list of targets that got leaked to the press.) Though the courts did not strike down most of this bald-faced gerrymandering, Doggett continues to hold onto his seat, while DeLay sits disgraced on the sidelines, his political career over. There are things we can do; are doing. Glad you are mad. That is only human. The trick is to focus your rage productively, or you've handed the powers that be your piece before it even went into play on the board.
The folks responsible are those who championed the grant of this power so clearly open to abuse to the agents you would hold solely responsible.
You would let the Godfather off the hook, it seems.
Code, are you arguing that unpopular gov is or would preferable?
How's that differ from what's there now?
Or you just hate the word "democrat"?
And what does the name you give to your "democracy" have to do with State denial of necessary medical care to those in its custody?
Or the path of justice in this case?
I want to thank everyone who is participating in this thread of discussion. You've given me lots to think about and are fueling ideas for action. At this moment I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." ~Margaret Mead
CODESUIDAE@145: What would you suggest? I don't think we should be throwing the baby out with the bath water here. Democracy requires an informed citizenry to truly function. The problem is that too many people in this country don't bother to scratch beneath the surface of things, and so are easily manipulated by knee-jerk issues. (We must not be smoking enough pot!) The mainstream press, owned by five corporations has become the tranquilizer of the masses, instead of the 4th house of government, another check in the originally envisioned balances. However, events like this, if given enough public outcry and therefore becoming something the press cannot ignore, can be turning points for positive change. (Remember Rosa Parks?) Let's all do our part to form a movement that can make lasting change. "Be the change you want to see." -Gandhi
I think that people confuse democracy with representative systems (little wonder-- we call ourselves a democracy but we're more accurately a democratic republic, or, as time goes on, a democratic oligarchy shading toward a totalitarian oligarchy). A lot of the discussions I see around the tubes that pertain to doing something about it seem to want to get experts in there to do the work and go back to their lives and have no problem with that idea.
I suppose you can still have experts, but a lot of our problems stem from blindly giving authority to 'experts' who may or may not be qualified and are not being checked up on. Moreover, the system only succeeds to the extent that the mores which uphold it are still being practiced. I'm telling you guys, this has to come in at the level of education (if nowhere else. It should be coming in at the level of family discourse.)
Find out those responsible, post names, addresses, schedules. With a group, jump and beat them, the group if caught gives conflicting reports or points to the "Victim" and claim self defense.
Use Tor from a free internet node post through squirrel or Unix and smash with hammer your drives when done.
I do not care anymore if I am put on a list! It is time to take back what our families have laid down their lives for, FREEDOM!
These assholes will not stop until everyone in on the list, locked in a cell or dead. Fuck 'em!
(I just committed a crime right?)
LAKELADY@154: Right on! Nice quote. =D
Let's see. In the comments here, we have the "this is never going to change, so why bother, stop being idiotic" and then we have "stand up and do something."
Realistically, nothing is going to happen overnight. However, the entire world is based on changes from one political regime (to choose an unsuitable word) to another, and another, and so on.
In America's case, the colonists let the problems build and tensions increase until, finally, we reached the breaking point and did something about it. We did a reasonable job at it, all told, and then slowly screwed it up.
While calling congressmen is not necessarily going to do anything productive, it never hurts to bug the hell out of your representatives. At least some of it is bound to get through to them, and even if they never change they will take the nagging feeling that they've done something wrong to their grave.
Most of us cannot affect tangible change. Most of us cannot put our foot down and fire one of our esteemed government leaders. If you think that is the only way of tracking progress, you're being very myopic.
Likewise, changing the existing government should be easy, if the current government were anything like what the founding fathers of America had in mind. It isn't.
Pushing the corruption out and changing our own government would simply not work, going by the guidelines set forth from the beginning. Think about it - would the US Government stand idly by while its citizens rise up in revolt? Hell no.
No. Instead, all we can do is try to change things from the inside. We seem to be moderately intelligent and well-informed BB denizens, yes? Most of the rest of us here in meatspace America are not. Most of the US populace is ill/mis-informed and couldn't care less about what its government is or isn't doing.
So it's up to the rest of us to make sure we vote out those that can be voted out and hope we replace them with the "right" person. Some of us can run for office.
You're only naive to believe that change cannot or will not happen. It is unlikely to happen soon, but it can happen.
"You are all naive to think you can change anything. You're stupid to stand up and do anything."
That is the statement of a coward. A short-term realist, but a coward.
That is the reason half of us are apathetic. This attitude is the reason a majority of us won't even try to change. If we don't try, we will never succeed. We may fail spectacularly a number of times, but at least we are giving ourselves the chance.
This is another Chapter in the tales of Cornell Companies, the place that runs the RI facility.
This article from last year shows that most of what they deal with are immigrants.
"Of the 864 people held on July 3,(2007) 650 were immigrants."
Cornell Companies seems to be the place to sent immigrant detainees to die.
"Last week, the group (ACLU) filed a public records request for details on what it says are the deaths of 62 immigrant detainees since 2004."
http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2007/jul/04/cornell-companies-inc-addresses-albuquerques-jail-/
Apparently profits mean more than people given this lawsuit from a few years back. Since then their stock prices have more than tripled.
http://securities.stanford.edu/1023/CRN02-01/
#160-- I don't think that the particular low level employees that did not report or allow Mr. Ng's illness to be treated or diagnosed did so in a vacuum. One of the first things employees do when they become employed at a particular facility is take a look at the rules and the actual ethos of that particular workplace. If the rules are not practiced and the ethos of a workplace is of a particular kind, the employee will tend to conform to that ethos or risk losing their job. In this climate, there's more conformity than whistle-blowing.
You'd have a hell of a time, since working in that particular environment exposes you to the particularities of it, convincing me that the management was completely unaware of a workplace ethos that promoted and allowed that sort of thing. Sorry, you'd have to work pretty hard to be unaware of that above the immediate employee level.
They management is still liable. And since that is a prevalent attitude toward corrections, coupled with a country administration that condones torture, that this is not something which can be laid, at least partially, at the feet of that idiot we have in office.
Sorry: Since that is a prevalent attitude toward corrections (what a euphemism), coupled with a country administration that condones torture, there is no way that this is not something which can be laid, at least partially, at the feet of that idiot we have in office.
IANAL but found some notes in the Connecticut Code:
The intentional inflicting of a wound from which death ensues within a year and a day may be either murder or manslaughter. 44 C. 540. If blow produces condition which results in death, this sufficient; reasonable doubt. 87 C. 573. By reckless driving of automobile. 82 C. 671; 83 C. 457; 109 C. 491. One who engages with others in a common purpose to carry on an activity in a reckless manner or with wanton disregard for the safety of others is guilty of involuntary manslaughter, even though he is not present when the homicide occurs. 138 C. 281. Distinction between murder and manslaughter is the presence of malice in the one and its absence in the other. 139 C. 89. Cited. 153 C. 325. Cited. 163 C. 305.
One who engages with others in a common purpose to carry on an activity in a reckless manner or with wanton disregard for the safety of others is guilty of involuntary manslaughter, even though he is not present when the homicide occurs. 138 C. 281.
"The new prison, the Donald W. Wyatt Detention Facility, is run by a private company and financed by investors. The Federal Government had agreed to pay the prison $83 a day for each prisoner it housed. Without a full complement of inmates, it could not hope to survive."
This is an article about the facility in question that NYTimes ran years ago.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F07EFD71339F937A15752C1A963958260&scp=2&sq=cornell%20corrections&st=cse
Just wanted to share this link:
From their Web site:
The Detention Watch Network (DWN) is a national coalition of organizations and individuals working to educate the public and policy makers about the U.S. immigration detention and deportation system and advocate for humane reform so that all who come to our shores receive fair and humane treatment.
LEXINGTON@171: I'm wide awake, thank you. I agree it was a travesty, but you can't go back and change the past. Forgive me for trying to look on the bight side: A good man (and yes, I have met Mr. Doggett, and he is a good man, imho) is still in office despite all their efforts to the contrary. I beg to differ that your assertion of "PEOPLE - THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO!!!" is defeatist, cowardly, and non-productive. You energy would be better spent trying to brainstorm ways that we can affect positive change. "All that is required for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing."
Hey all: refer to names not numbers in replies/responses to posts. the numbers change. Just a heads-up.
Mr. Hansen:
You have explained yourself well and I agree. (Thank you too for correction - bad typist, I am.)
But there is a pattern with this co. apparently...see the above posts re:ACLU & immigrant deaths in custody.
And workplace ethos, etc. has much to do with this malfeasance, which indicates some blame must attach to those for whom the individuals were working.
Finally these people were acting in their capacity of agents of the State/Contractor...the principal must bear some liability, if only to pay the Bills resulting from her agent's malfeasance, if justice is to be served.
If a say City employee drops a tree on your house, you sue the City and its employee.
The nature of Corporate Criminal liability still needs work - there's a tendency to blame it all on the Corp's agents, with no liability accruing to those higher-ups who either implictly or explicitly condoned or ordered the action or inaction complained of.
It's always the soldiers, never the Army, at fault, over & over.
Practically, this blaming of only those underlings & "bad apples"- always at the "dirtiest-hands", hardest physically-working levels (ie grunts) ALWAYS results in the denial of responsibility once you get high enough up the chain of command...and the Commander is never replaced or punished.
The psyops guys call it "deniability".
FRANK@172: Awesome! Thanks for the link. Every little bit helps.
Lexington,
This thread is not about gerrymandering. If you want to comment on the subject at hand, please do. Otherwise, please don't.
On a practical note, here is a fantastic guide to the nuts and bolts of organizing grassroots organizations and movements:
http://aia.mahost.org/
It does a great job of demystifying some of the more intimidating aspects of organizing, and showing how anyone, yes even you, can do it.
I know that probably most of the people here don't consider themselves anarchists, but a lot of the information and advice is applicable nevertheless. Most of it has nothing to do with the popular image of chaotic, violent hooligans :)
ZIKZAK@182: Thanks. That's some very helpful info.
LEX@183: Now you're starting to talk some sense, but again, how do you suggest we get our tie-fighters down in the trench?
Btw, I never recommended simply relying on "traditional" activism. I merely echoed that it's as good a place as any to start. I am willing to entertain any other practical non-violent ideas to bring about positive change, many of which have been suggested here in this thread already by folks who believe we can make a difference.
If we publicize this incident far and wide, 99.99% of Americans will say they do not approve / are ashamed / did not vote for this. The people pull the strings, if we'd only realize it.
Ken Hansen - However, I do hold them responsible and it is no knee jerk reaction. They have created the policies, and fed the ignorance, hatred, and fear that have led to these abuses. This is not an isolated event. These guys are the executive branch, they are responsible for executing the law. They are responsible for any failures.
So are we back to being mad at the bad guys instead of each other?
My country wrong. The only "right" is in power and screwing my country. Wrong.
The evil empire has been in action for some time now. Fortunately it's getting more transparent. I remain unconvinced that anyone will do anything, but when you know, and do nothing, at least you know you're part of the problem.
Antinous, your comment at 181 (solely by being at 180+) is oozing with delicious accidental irony.
LEX@189:
Link #1: I am very familiar with the definition, as I believe I expressed previously here in this thread.
Link#2: Does not resolve for me. Please try again.
All 4 the lack of a couple of scans...poor Mr. Ng.
Something similar to this happened a couple years ago in Philly - some kid with cerebral palsy died of starvation and infection because no one ever got her help, even though she was in the DHS (different DHS - this was the child protection one) system and they were supposed to be checking up on her.
Sure enough, there were contractors involved. There was also an overworked, underpaid staff, most of whom don't have the requisite qualifications, because who with those qualifications would take that job? And family friends who never said a word. And parents who actually forbade their son to call 911 to get the girl help.
This was 2 years ago; it just became a big story now - 7 people were just arrested including the parents and their friends, several more were fired, the new mayor actually said he was "pissed off" and they're supposedly going to do something about the wreck that is (this) DHS, like adding oversight of the contractors. I'm seriously hoping her brother is getting some therapy.
So yes, publicizing innocent deaths may just be the necessary catalyst for change. Man dying painfully of cancer is certainly up there, if not quite as Holy Crap Think Of The Childrens as a 14-year-old girl with cerebral palsy left to starve.
Antinous, my comment at 191 (about your comment at 181) was incorrect. I had conflated Gerrymander with Filibuster, as is my habit.
Lexington,
They were disemvowelled because you already posted them in this thread. That transcends discourse and becomes propaganda.
Ken 164: IANAL, but I think the comparison would be between manslaughter and murder - as I understand manslaughter, that is the charge when someone dies as a direct result of your actions, murder is when that was you intention (to kill the person). (emphasis in original)
IANALE, but as I said here, in some jurisdictions intent or depraved indifference is the requirement for second-degree murder. I think I would certainly vote to indict several of the people involved in this case on that basis.
___ 169: I can't blame an administrator sitting in Washington D.C. unless that administrator was involved in creating a policy that caused others to deny this fellow treatment. (emphasis in original)
Got that for you: the administrators who decided that for-profit prisons (which lead, in my view inevitably, to this kind of abuse) were a good idea.
Ken Hansen - I agree the title should say he died will being detained, instead of he was detained until he died. There is definitely a difference and it is important; Mr. Ng was not held while they waited for him to die.
Mneptok - Oh, I get it, more often than not I'm the Lone Ranger.
Lexington,
Pelosi is correct, insofar as
a) she was not the speaker when the most egregious violations occurred
b) she relies on the executive branch to execute the legislation her House passes, and the executive has made it clear it would not... so she's waiting them out, because
c) she doesn't want to start a civil war
do you? Then get going on it.
Attn: DHS
I DON'T FEEL SECURE!
The Executive Branch of our government arrests a person and then consigns that person to a privately owned and operated facility contracted to hold those arrested by Federal agencies. Why then is it not the responsibility of some bureaucrats in Washington to ensure people being detained are being cared for properly? They contracted with this company, they signed the purchase order. Anyway, what are we arguing about, it doesn't matter if this is a private facility or not. You arrest someone their care becomes your responsibility.
Foetus - Why then is it not the responsibility of some bureaucrats in Washington to ensure people being detained are being cared for properly?
Clearly it is someones responsibility.
-So was the Katrina response.
-So was pursuing warrants for wiretapping in accordance with existing FISA law.
-So was waiting for congress to appropriate monies for moving troops to S.A and Kuwait in 2002 (rather than spending the dollars appropriated for Afghanistan, which the Pres is not supposed to do)
-So is every other epic fail and end-run pursued at full steam by this administration.
It was all someone's responsibility.
they failed
I think it's intentional, but either way:
Now the responsibility is OURS.
Lexington,
The thread is not about gerrymandering. You're here pushing a personal political agenda. That makes you look like an astroturfer, particularly since you are new to BB. If you continue, I will disemvowel your comments.
To clarify that, you're using the tragic and horrific death of a man as a platform to push your political agenda, which is related to the subject as distantly as gerrymandering is related to free elections. You have, in other words, gerrymandered this thread.
MDHatter - So true.
ORINTH@194: It is but another instance, another symptom, if you will, of a very corrupt and self-serving organism. Someone could compile all of these instances into one powerful documentary.
LEX@193: Yah. Been there; get the action alerts. What else you got? I got 3.95 hours left in my ZIKZAK recommended activist time per day. It's often easier to say what you can't do than imagine what you can, isn't it?
RE: Gerrymandering. Ok, you made your point. You can't underscore it more. Let's move on. You got anything else?
ANT@186: I was hoping so, but I think it may be too early to tell... @205: Bwahahaha! See? You are the Good Humour Man! =D
MDHATTER@203: Well said.
For fuck's sake. What is wrong with people?
OT: Hey you mods rock! Moderators, that is.
Antinous,
I agree, Lex has gone broken record. But somewhere in there is a tiny valid point.
Disclaimer: The following is setup, please do not read too deeply into it.
{setup
If we are going to solve this properly, within the system, as we should, we have a problem. By the system, only the government has the power to alter the root causes of these problems.
So, you contact your congress critter and make your opinions known. You also vote for the ones you think will get the job done, both legislative and executive. This is how you make changes within this system.
setup}
So, you've said no to defeatism, done what you can to change things, and...
Nothing happens?
Why?
Now, Lex has given his opinion, and I have my own different view on the matter. And you may be right in that the topic isn't for this thread, but the problem IS tied to the topic.
This horrible event pisses me right off, and I want to do something about it. But I want to do something THAT WILL GET GUARANTEED RESULTS, SOON.
How am I supposed to do that?
-Cantih
Mods.. Rock?
Careful, Canuck :)
Never ends well..
LEX@212: I don't think you wasted your time. I think we finally gained some consensus. I welcome your insights and I think ultimately we are in agreement as to the changes that need to happen. Just try not to linger too much on one point, and, as you did at the end, keep it constructive. Thanks for sharing. =D
Yup, I'd like to overhaul our system of government and guarantee the human rights of everyone, but I'm not going to commit to hours of work everyday, or start a grassroots movement. But I do a bit, and when enough people do, it makes a difference. Support the ACLU. Send letters to politicians. After seeing this appalling story, I contacted both my senators and my congressman. It's a small thing, but I think it matters -- they do react, at least somewhat, it there's enough outrage.
It was some years ago, but the Immigration folks at Portland International Airport were locking travelers up for no good reason, at a much higher rate than other airports. The Oregonian newspaper ran stories about it, people complained to the powers that be, and the local manager was fired. A follow-up article described things as better.
One step at a time does help.
Lexington,
I didn't mean to imply that I disagree with you or that there's anything wrong with what you said. You simply said it in an inappropriate forum and you said it over and over again. However valid your point, it was threadjacking. Posting the same links several times in the same thread is disrespectful to the readers and other commenters. It's in the same behavior cluster as making your point in all caps. Our readers are intelligent. They can get your point on the first pass.
http://www.projo.com/news/content/IMMIGRANT_DEATH_08-14-08_MAB7EJ1_v24.43a7e63.html
Mississippi owns the DHS?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081002092.html
There yearly report is at http://www.wyattdetention.com/Wyatt_2007_AnnualReport.pdf
If there ever was a thing that could be mashed up......
Those of you in the US should take a look within and realize that you're the ones who elected Bush - twice. Now you have a huge and ever-growing list of human rights violations to contend with, and those of you who say that nothing can be done are making that a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Leadership starts with you. Right now. If you are outraged, you have to act. Don't let it rest and expect that someone else will do it for you. They won't. Hasn't that been proven already?
KEPPOCH@222: Perhaps you haven't been following events here in the US very closely, but we didn't elect bush in 2000 or 2004. Both elections were outright stolen by any standard you apply, which is why much of this discussion has revolved around, dare I say it... gerrymandering.
Please read Greg Palast's book Armed Madhouse for a more detailed description of how this occurred, all of the other forms of voter disenfranchisement, coercion and outright fraud at play here, and the challenges we face in trying to get an honest election this year.
It's not like were all so stupid that we all rushed out to carry our fearless leader through the streets and now that his policies and practices have not panned out so well we've decided he's evil. Some of us were against this regime since w was governor here in Texas, and against his Daddy's regime, and against Reagan's before that. (I was also against Thatcher's, but not being a UK citizen, I couldn't vote against her.)
I applaud your chiming in on the importance of voting and being an activist. Please realize that some of us have been at this for a very long time and using all of our means of civil disobedience to try to thwart the tentacles of oligarchy as they spread like a cancer through our government. You should know that at no time in the history of this nation have we been in such a deep crevasse of a constitutional crisis; not even under Nixon. The military industrial complex took a while to fully take the reigns but now is doing the driving. It's going to take some serious chemo to extract it. (Ok, I know I'm mixing metaphors a bit, but I think you know what I'm saying.)
Mr. Hansen these people are employees of contractors of the Executive branch of the federal government, and bear responsibility as such - others may share fault but we start with those most directly involved.
The question for investigation is...where were their Superiors? Don't they share the immediate blame?
This step ought to be repeated up the chain to find the "weak link" that led to this horrific situation.
Interesting to note the massive increase in the number of Federal prisoners since R.Reagan come to power.
And each of these prisoners costs the taxpayers big $$$...review J.Young's Cryptome site for the Gov. Releases as to these facts.
Enough of these stories to make a pattern indicates a systemic problem...not simply a failure of individual employees, even if in any particular case those employees are found "liable" or "not liable".
It's like the Justice system and minorities...no particular case has provable prejudice as a cause of its disposition but stats for the system as a whole shows that something with respect to its treatment of minorities is out-of-sync.
In Canada it's Aboriginals In the States it's blacks.
Systemic problems can only be effectively addressed at a systemic level and that requires the Administrators and system designers to step up and take responsibility, at least enough to work on improving things. Rather than deny a problem existence, or to deny it as being their problem.
Even worse some systems are designed with "plausible deniability" (of responsibility of higher-ups) , built in. eg CIA assassinations and propaganda work. All that murderous and vile "dirty work" your politicians claim that you voted them into Office to perform ( funny how self-assumed such "missions" are. Did Bushco get Senate approval for making Georgia an American protectorate?)
How do the actions of the highest members of the Executive Branch affect their employees? What has happened when Congress attempted oversight? When questioned by Congress they refuse to answer or even appear, they obfuscate the facts, or, as it often appears, tell outright lies when they do answer. The best leaders lead by example. Can anyone here say they have set a good example? Have they demonstrated by their words or deeds the manner in which they expect their employees to behave? I think they have.
None of this is intended to absolve Congress of their responsibility in this and every other fiasco.
which is why the death of Mr. Ng is what should be being discussed.
"..upset that Lexington comes across as smarter than he/she?"
No need for that Elysian.
Why?
EA,
Have it your way. Since it's now clear that you're just trolling, I've unpublished all your posts in this thread.
In light of recent developments, my comment @227 now appears in response to Arkizzle's comment @226, or even worse Takuan's @225. Please take note the comment was in response to a now unpublished comment. I should have included a name in my comment.
Big or small, I think what's important is that we do what Mr. Ng, in the end, could not do - STAND UP.
I will stand up for Mr. Ng, even if all I can figure to do do is write my congresscritters and sending hairy eyeball emails to Cornell and Wyatt. It may not be much, but it's something. Eventually, you get enough people standing up, you get noticed. Maybe, if we're lucky, even listened to.
It's a start, anyway? Who else will stand up for Mr. Ng?
SONI: I am with you!
Mr. Hansen: You are way off base here. I don't know how you can say with certainty that you are "positive everything will go according to plan" in the next election, unless that plan is to steal another election. I am going to sidestep your obvious devil's advocation in the attempt to bait another flamewar, which you seem to me very fond of here, because I don't want to take this thread further off track. Suffice to say that if you read the material I have cited in the comment you referenced, you are likely to see a widely differing viewpoint from a highly accredited source. That said, I will put this question to you: If the Republicans had lost the last two elections, with as much malfeasance as has been widely reported, don't you think they'd be bitching just as loud and clear (if not moreso?)
I would like to hear what Lexington has to say.
This post is about a lot of things kicked off about the death of this poor man. It includes outrage against DHS, Bush, and it includes outrage against politicians who redistrict themselves to remove the requirement to be accountable.
If I'm not interested in a post, I'll scroll past it, but censorship based on a pissing match has no place on this site.
I'm mature enough to skip posts that I think don't add value to the discussion. I don't need someone to tell me what I can or can not read.
Frank,
Lexington is an astroturfer. She got from the victim to accusing Nancy Pelosi of being a murderess at trans-light speed. It's like showing up at a funeral, asking for campaign contributions. It's not a matter of protecting you from anybody's evil eye. It's a matter of not allowing BB threads to be used by people with specific political agendas to promote.
Lexington is an astroturfer
So, Cindy's posted her snipers.
@Phikus #219
I actually HAVE been paying attention. If you knew what was going on and still allowed it, you're as much to blame as those who voted for Bush. The thing is, leadership is putting yourself in front, and you all stayed back and watched it happen.
You allowed your government to create the means to ensure that nobody is trusted and everyone needs to be watched, and then should be thrown into prison because they don't conform to a rigid set of criteria.
You need to remember some of your forefathers and foremothers and become active in your own governments when you know injustices are being done. Stop being part of the disease.
Look up "immigration emergency." Look at images as well as websites.
I been in the front so long it looks like the rear to me. I've been fighting these bastards for fifty years, one battle after another, so don't preach to me, you fair-haired Jody 'cruit!
amen, buddy.
Frank in Virginia, does it ever occur to you that what happens to a given message may not have sweet bleep-all to do with telling you what you can and cannot read? More often than not, what we're doing is telling someone what they can and cannot post.
Keppoch, knock it off. Some of us have been doing everything we can since before Bush took the White House. We are not equally to blame with those who voted for the man. We are required to intend good and to do our best to accomplish good. Success is not guaranteed.
As for Ken Hansen, haven't you guys noticed yet? Ken Hansen always badmouths the victims, defends malfeasant authority, and suggests that we don't have the whole story.
I think it was from Ursula Le Guin that I learned about people being guilty of what happens to them, but I can't find a cite.
Perhaps it's a psychological need to feel that the universe is essentially just as opposed to arbitrary and indifferent.
While hunting for follow-up articles in the NYT, I clicked on Nina Bernstein's byline and got this list of her recent articles, including many others on the subject of detainee abuses.
"how could we let this happen?"
well, sitting around playing halo could be a major contributor. how about fiddling with your new iphone? the general atmosphere of "let's not give a %$#@ til something irreversible happens".
step 1? VOTE. half the world is out here watching you people on election day wishing that we could get our hands on your millions of un-exercised votes which you throw away because you have no time between watching lost, picking scabs and lurking on youtube.
try caring BEFORE the guy dies.
"People, we're way beyond "working within the system for positive change." You have to have a functional system for that to be possible, and the US is not the shining beacon of democracy you think it is."
it would be if y'all'd just VOTE. see democracy stops working when apathy kicks in. apathy is your responsibility and no one else's. it feels good to pass the buck but in a system that has been designed by the people for the people, the people need to participate in order for it to work. half the country voting in a major election is not enough participation. americans have NO ONE to blame but themselves. you voted (barely) this administration in, you have to live with the consequences. and i don't buy that those who voted anything but republican are not to blame, bulllll%$#%. i bet you know 40 people who didn't vote. what did you do about it? nothing.
YOU are to blame. for everything, from 9/11 to the iraq war to every little inhumane misdeed in prisons and detention centers. until you put down your playstations and pay attention, nothing is going to change. accept it.
They are one and the same, both have the same result.
It was also said earlier these are blocks against "political agendas". I dare say most of us have "political agendas" including the original poster. My agenda is to express outrage at ICE/DHS over these abuses and provide links to organizations that may make a difference; others see the problem as political maneuvers to reduce accountability; and still others throw their hands in the air saying "nothing can be done".
Censorship allows the posts that agree with the censor and disallows the others.
I remember all too well the discussion following the Violet Blue drama. It is your site to do with as you see fit.
My television remote serves me as my scroll button does here. Opinions are what they are, but I will not tell broadcasters what they can or can not broadcast.
Censorship allows the posts that agree with the censor and disallows the others.
Censorship strips a thought from availability.
Moderation strips a thought from availability - here.
This is not the village axe-grinding shop.
"My television remote serves me as my scroll button does here. Opinions are what they are, but I will not tell broadcasters what they can or can not broadcast."
If you're telling BB how to moderate their site than that is exactly what you are doing.
You can moderate your site however you wish, but it'll take more than a remote control to pull it off.
If it helps any, think of Teresa and the other mods as bouncers who are limited insofar as they can't see the crazy look in the eyes or smell the booze on someones breath - but they CAN see a troublemaker.
That person whose flag you are bearing was a troublemaker.
...and bear in mind that there is a separate thread for discussion re:moderation:
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/27/boing-boings-moderat.html
Teresa@228-229: Word.
Frank,
Astroturfing is just politicized spam. It was treated like spam. If a new user showed up with multiple posts about how Ralph Nader would have saved him, or if the Ng family only had owned guns everything would have been fine, or how Barack Obama will keep this from ever happening again, they would have been shown the door. Lexington showed up at a funeral with a picket sign. A pre-printed picket sign.
That I like and that I can live with. Thanks.
I realize there is a thin line between what some may call censorship and managing a forum for discussion. Sometimes it is easy; SPAM, hate mongering, baiting others, etc. But sometimes the line is a bit thinner.
I'm not sure that is the case, but I post those thoughts elsewhere.
But enough of that. This post is about Mr. Ng.
We'll chat about moderating comments elsewhere.
#238 Antinous
Thanks
It is better that 1000 innocents die isolated and in pain, than one single terrorist be set free.
Frank, any time I'm tempted to let astroturf stand, I can phone up my godfather, who's the moderator of a national news site for a major news agency. Their software is more primitive than Boing Boing's -- it's the usual story: they're waiting until tech support can implement a bunch of great new community features -- and in the meantime he can sit and watch waves of astroturf* roll over his undefended site. Within a few minutes, thirty new accounts will be registered. Within a few more minutes, every one of those accounts will be used to post a message slamming a particular candidate in some unrelated thread. Then those accounts go dead and are never used again.
Stuff like that is also the reason why we don't allow comments mentioning candidates who aren't mentioned in the main entry. In an election year, that's like allowing random mentions of Viagra and Cialis to stand in comment threads. It just attracts more of the same.
When you get an astroturfer who can pass for a human being, you're getting the high-priced spread. In spite of this, we somehow just don't feel all that honored.
__________________________
*Waves of astroturf look like a Baroque-era theatrical production enacting an earthquake.
@243 Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator
Thank you for taking the time to explain your (boingboing) position. I didn't see what (Lexington) had posted as "Astroturfing" ... a form of propaganda whose techniques usually consist of a few people attempting to give the impression that mass numbers of enthusiasts advocate some specific cause." (Wikipedia (of course))
Sometimes discussions get off track because of moderation efforts aimed at creating a smooth-flowing discussion. Sometimes the moderation itself becomes the discussion.
I just scroll past comments that try to disrupt the discussion, but something must be working because I keep coming back.
Have I mentioned that I'm glad you do keep coming back?