Parents question why Ozark police used stun gun on kid with broken back
Brett Burton says: "Police in Ozark, MO tasered a 16-year-old boy after he fell 30 feet from a bridge. Officers said he refused to comply with them and they had to deploy their Tasers in order to subdue him. At the time, he was apparently lying on the ground with a broken back."
His dad says the use of the stun gun delayed what would have been immediate surgery by two days.Parents question why Ozark police used stun gun on injured son (KY3.com)“The ‘Tasering’ increased his white blood cell count and caused him to have a temperature so they could not go into the operation.”
“He refused to comply with the officers and so the officers had to deploy their Tasers in order to subdue him. He is making incoherent statements; he's also making statements such as, ‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that. So there was cause for concern to the officers,” said Ozark Police Capt. Thomas Rousset.
Police say although there are several unanswered questions; the reason for the use of a stun gun is not one of them.
“It's a big concern for the officers to keep this guy out of traffic, to keep him from getting hurt,” said Rousset.
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I can't believe this...didn't happen in Florida.
After all of that, I think these officers deserve a vacation!
Sometimes people in authority who abuse their positions need to be disappeared Stalinesquely.
These fellers qualify accross the board...
What. The. Hell.
“It's a big concern for the officers to keep this guy out of traffic, to keep him from getting hurt,” said Rousset.
I do not see the problem here, I have to
taze my kid's everyday to keep them out of traffic, wouldn't want them getting hurt, geez
Excuse me, i think i need to go vomit.
...The old adage applies once again:
"Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely, especially if it comes with a cheap tin star."
let me guess, they asked him to put his hands on his head, and for some reason he wouldn't move....
Good use of a Taser! Who is next Steven Hawking, for not Getting on the ground fast enough? Slow hang these idiots or at least castrate them so they do not breed!
All police officers and other security personnel to whom a taser is issued should first be tasered themselves, so they know what it's like.
I gotta say, this kid would have scared the bejesus out of me too. I mean, he's 16, unarmed, not moving...that's the stuff nightmares are made of.
Look you people just don't understand. People with broken backs are a danger to themselves and everyone around them. You never know when they might say nasty things to you that hurt your feelings!
Obviously they had to taze him to keep public order.
if you look around you find they consider: grandmothers, children, the handicapped, the unconscious and the sick all legitimate electrocution subjects. Just google "police taser", the hits just keep on coming.
This article makes me want to go play GTA. Is that unhealthy?
@10
a lot of police departments do just that. Th law-suit proof themselves they include tasering as part of their official training. In this a healthy adult is stood on a cushy mattress with lots of warning and mental prep, a doctor presnt, a pre-medical exam, carefully shot in the meatiest part of the body and gently caught by friends while the current is immediately turned off. That way they can tell the court they know what it is like. When it's YOUR turn, its done without warning, usually while your heart is going a mile a minute, after a beating, on concrete, with six hundred pounds of cop jumping on you, and with the current applied over and over and over until your flesh actually cooks where the barbs pierced you. Then they chain you and toss you into a van or cell unattended for a few hours.
I can't believe no one picked up on the NUMBER of times he was tasered. Apparently...19. 19 times. Now...given the benefit of the doubt that he didn't comply fast enough...even with the broken back, once, twice maybe would be enough for someone to determine that he CANNOT comply...not that he won't...that he CAN'T.
Of course, those who have first aid training are instructed NOT to move a subject who MAY have spinal, neck or head injuries. If the officers determined that he MAY have a back injury (like not moving, lying on you back on the ground after is usually a good indication...)then their only recourse to 'move him' out of the way of traffic was to taze him until he moved himself (or flopped like a fish in the direction that the officers wanted him to move). If they had moved him by hand, they could be sued if they exasperated the injury. By using the taser, all that 'goes away'.
Of course, any SANE person would have just stopped traffic. Problem solved. But...this is the Ozarks.
Unusual Suspect @10, that's actually part of the problem: many *are* Tasered as part of training classes, to demonstrate the effectiveness of Tasering suspects. Consequently, police see Tasers as a painful, incapacitating, and entirely temporary method of subduing suspects, and the mental bar is lowered on their use.
Police misuse of Tasers stems from the perfectly legitimate desire to minimize the potential of danger from suspects, and an imperfect understanding of the danger of Tasers. Put those two together and you have a law enforcement magic wand that's going to be used more than it should. What's needed are strict guidelines and reporting policies on use of Tasers plus better recording of the events surrounding their use.
The majority of police officers are good men and women doing a difficult job in which there is a significant probability of unforeseen violence. The problem isn't with them: it's with a technology that appears safer than it is and a political policy environment that encourages its use in marginal cases.
Having said that, let me just say this about this particular story: What the fuck? There's no justification for what these guys did, since there's no medical way this kid could have even appeared to have posed a threat. Let's hope the locals put enough pressure on the mayor and city council to have the PD put under scrutiny for this one.
The only thing I can conceive of that justifies it is if the kid was on PCP.
All bets are off if that's the case.
Takuan:
And THIS is what passes as 'testing' procedures.
THIS is why they claim their product is 'safe'. What about anyone NOT as fit as a police officer (not that they ALL are...). Or tazed for up to 2m30sec...or...or...
I wonder if the cops are TOLD that their 'weapon' CAN cause death if they'll be a little more easy on their use...and by that I mean, move in when they are being tazed, and while their still stunned, THEN cuff them...IE..do YOUR JOB.
On another note, WTF did they charge him with?
Yet more evidence that cops are Motherf**kers.
To paraphrase Phil Collins, "if I saw one drowning, I would not lend a hand".
Agree with #12. An injured teenager lying in the roadway poses a grave threat to the safety of the responding officers. Tasering, however, is not necessarily the best way to deal with threats like this. Here's an example of Chicago's finest using traditional blunt trauma to subdue a menacing quadriplegic.
MDHATTER:
Tests indicated he was clean. NO drugs or alcohol.
@anomaly69:
No, these are power trippin' farktards who happen to be cops.
Blackbird -
Well, there goes the only possible justification I could think of - and with it (hopefully) a large chunk of those officers retirement savings.
Takuan, thanks! I did not know that. So much for my theory that it might make police assaults less vicious.
16 comments in and nobody has stood up for the cops yet? Is this boingboing or some den of pinko vegan anarchist perverts?
Well, if no one else will, I guess I have to.
This kid was asking for it. He was talking about killing cops for heaven's sake, he should thank his lucky stars they refrained from using live ammunition. He probably did something vile before he was tasered, which the police aren't mentioning in their defence because it alarm public decency. These cops deserver a medal.
Mace
I just figured he was riding with Critical Mass...
@Cyan
What, now you want to crush his skull?
MDHatter @17 and 23
Am I missing some irony here? I really don't get how PCP or any other drug comes into it.
Do you figure PCP is going to somehow transform someone lying on the ground with a broken spine into a danger to justify tasering even once?
He could have been on the most heinous possible cocktail of drugs - PCP, LSD, meth, ritalin, pure extract of cocainized negro, and marijuana 50 times stronger than back when the baby boomers all smoked it - the fact remains that he's stuck on the ground with a broken back. All tasering him could possibly achieve is to send his overstimulated heart into arrest, and convulse his trunk muscles so any undamaged nerves are finished off for good.
This came up in an SAT question:
taser guns : cops
new Xbox360 : 14 year old boys
to use pepper spray, Mace, CS, tear gas etc as instruments of torture, all you need are handcuffs. Again, police training/litigation proofing for "irritant" sprays involves having a running hose handy and helpful buckets of water. When it's your turn, your hands are behind you and a foot stays on your throat. For quite a while. Ever had pepper in your eyes? Any idea of how rich in nerve endings the cornea is? They do. Also keeps you from seeing who is doing the "follow-up" on your body. "Can you point out the man in court who struck you?"
How much you want to bet the "not complying with the orders" connects to orders he was incaple of following due to his injuries.
#25: Threatening comments from an unarmed, immobile kid who muttering incoherantly is not something that warents a taser.
There's been a few reports on police taser use since that rather high-profile taser-death here in vancouver, and the general sense you get is that they use tasers without bothering to assess the situation first.
Ozark, MO. And no hillbilly jokes yet after 22 comments? What is wrong with you people?!
I would just like to re-iterate something here
A) “They tested his system. He was clean of drugs and alcohol. We don't know why unless just being in shock and the whole thing in itself caused him to forget everything,” said Hutchinson.
and
B)
“We called the police. My wife was afraid he was going to get ran over or hit,” said witness Doug Messersmith.
Messersmith and his wife were the last known people to see 16-year-old boy walking, shortly before their phone call to 911.
“He looked a little agitated but, other than that, he didn't look to be falling down drunk or anything like that,” he said. "
He wasn't doing anything before he fell off the overpass.
He wasn't even a threat.
Those cops should be fired, and dragged under the juggernaut of the American legal system.
A lot of you keep calling this a Tasering. It is not. A Stun Gun is not the same as a Taser.
the convulsions and agony are the same though
@ 28 -
No, I was going to post something about Taser beats Mace (the kid's name IS Mace), but suddenly had to look like I'm actually working, heh.
>>"A lot of you keep calling this a Tasering. It is not. A Stun Gun is not the same as a Taser."
Yeah, but "Don't stun gun me bro" doesn't quite sound the same. ; )
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080725.TASERJAIL25/TPStory/National
A Stun Gun is not the same as a Taser.
and neither is the same as an EMT.
My. GAWD.
Yeah, I suspect his mumbling was more like "cops...kill...ing...me..."
Any updates on this guy's condition?
I'm really sick of tasers. It's like cops get so excited they have them that they want to use them, and they don't realize how dangerous they are, that they should be a last resort.
Here in Athens, OH, the police tasered a man contemplating suicide at the top of a parking garage. While he was down on his belly, still feeling the effects of being tasered, the police demanded he show his hands, and when he couldn't, they tasered him again.
It's a good thing they had those tazers, otherwise they might have just shot the kid. It's easy to claim self defense.
... wait, why didn't they just shoot the kid? Then at least none of this would have been an issue.
#29
As the British band KLONEZ UK said years ago, "dust negates the tazer". People on angel dust often barely acknowledge being tasered.
Guy? I thought he was a kid.
You know, there was probably some brain damage involved here. Even if he didn't strike his head, the jarring from his landing would be enough to cause intracranial bruising and bleeding. Sometimes, people who have just sustained a head injury aren't really thinking clearly and might not really mean the things they say.
Just, you know, throwing that out there. *twitch*
@36 Markfrei - actually TFA makes it pretty clear that it was a Taser attack. The headline reads stun gun, but the article uses Taser several times, including in a direct quote from the attackers' police spokesman.
I'd be interested in hearing from lawyers familiar with self-defense law in the US. How close are we to a scenario where someone not engaged in any illegal activity just shoots a cop on sight and has some kind of credible argument that he was in reasonable fear for his life?
“We called the police. My wife was afraid he was going to get ran over or hit,” said witness Doug Messersmith...
“He looked a little agitated but, other than that, he didn't look to be falling down drunk or anything like that,” he said.
By the time officers arrived, the teen was off the 30-foot overpass, lying on the shoulder below along U.S. 65, with no good explanation as to how he got there.
So it sounds like Messersmith and his wife saw him walking on the overpass and he looked out of it enough for them to call the police, but he wasn't drunk or on drugs?
Also, can't you have a broken (fractured) back and still walk around? So I don't know if we can assume that he was immobilized. I'm not saying the cops shouldn't have tasered the dude (and yes, it was a taser, not a stun gun--at least according to the officer's statement), but maybe this kid was wandering around totally bat sh-- crazy.
Is there a better article on this story?
McGringostar - exactly my point. The Dust negates a lot of pain. It's about the scariest thing ever. That said, he was clean.
Dragonfrog - please read McGringostars comment. I posed an "if and only if" statement, because of my personal experience with those who are on the Dust. I thought that was clear. sorry.
Lesinge - but maybe this kid was wandering around totally bat sh-- crazy.
Something there rings true for me. You don't jump off a highway overpass if you're looking to make it to 17. You think there's any chance his mumblings were actually his asking the cops to kill him? I mean, it wouldn't be the first suicide by cop.
What pathetic excuses for officers. What happened to them working for us? Does anyone other then the police or their relatives even like the police? Do they even do anything? Seems like nowadays all they do is set up little traps to steal good citizens money, park their cars in fast food/donut store parking lots, and when they get bored... gang-beating up some innocent/unarmed person... Oh and we have 5% of the worlds population but have 25% of the worlds inmates... most of them for drug convictions that shouldn't even be illegal in the first place. Criminal Justice System is broken and the cops just keep feeding people into the meat grinder, I have no respect for the police anymore, even the good cops who might be trying to change things for the better are completely overshadowed at this point.
Lesinge:
"looked out of it enough to call the police". Actually, he looked 'agitated'. Which is way different. Agitation could have been caused by numerous things, family strife, breakup with a girlfriend, being LOST...ANYTHING could cause 'agitation'...
Yes, you CAN still walk if you have a broken back and you haven't punctured the dura, but it still hurts like hell and isn't advisable. However, since the cops found him lying on the ground, I doubt he was walking around.
Quote: By the time officers arrived, the teen was off the 30-foot overpass, lying on the shoulder below along U.S. 65, with no good explanation as to how he got there.
He "fell" 30 feet from a bridge. Nice of them not to call it attempted suicide.
It doesn't sound like he was "out of it", it sounds like he was a kid walking along the highway, which is dangerous and in some places against the law - that's a pretty good reason to call 911.
Also, ahem (from the article):
"By the time officers arrived, the teen was off the 30-foot overpass, lying on the shoulder below along U.S. 65, with no good explanation as to how he got there."
So he wasn't "walking around", #50, or doing anything at all - he was LYING IMMOBILIZED on the shoulder of a highway. How that could possibly deserve 19 hits from a taser is beyond me.
see tasers are safe, he is alive.
Tsrng s th dsmvllmnt f plcng. t's sy t tll yrslf tht y'r nt dng rl hrm, s y rsrt t t qckr.
@56 after being Tasered 19 times!!
There needs to be something like the EFF created to prosecute police who Taser.
I would happily donate to support that mandate.
MDHatter
No offence, but I was referring to the information contained in the actual article. It's only about 500 words.
- Kid is on an overpass, looking "a little agitated" (it doesn't mention what exact signs there were)
- Witnesses call cops, afraid he might get hit by a vehicle (again, unclear if he was walking out in traffic, or if they were afraid he might)
- Cops arrive, by which time he is lying on the ground on the side of the road, below the overpass. It's not clear if he fell or jumped.
- Kid fails to follow cops' orders (it's not specified what those orders were; one suspects that they were ordering him to do something he couldn't have done because of his injuries)
- Cops taser him about 19 times.
- Subsequent testing shows he was not on any drugs or alcohol.
Even in the absence of that last point, it wouldn't have mattered what drugs he might have been on - all he was doing was lying on the ground, so there was no threat. Failing to stand, roll over, do the hokey pokey, or any other thing out reach of a person with spinal injuries does not require restraint beyond saying "Alright then, just lie there and don't move."
"This boy is being incoherent and rowdy!"
"Well he did just fall 30 feet, he's probably hurt and I doubt he knows what is going on if he hit his head."
"You're not a doctor, this boy is being threatening and making terrorist demands."
"What?"
"You heard me rookie, get your stun gun we have to take this terrorist in, dead or alive!"
"Sir he's just laying there, twitching, he's kind of drooling on himself too."
"I SAID TASER HIM RIGHT NOW! NO LESS THAN NINETEEN TIMES!"
I am shocked....SHOCKED......that it took 39 comments to get to a "don't taze me bro" joke.
I suppose that
"- Cops arrive, by which time he is lying on the ground on the side of the road, below the overpass. It's not clear if he fell or jumped."
Could be translated as
"- Cops arrive, taser him about 19 times.
- Cops claim they found him lying on the shoulder of the road. It's not clear if he fell, jumped, or was thrown by cops."
I've seen quotes like, "he's also making statements such as, ‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that" showing up in articles where someone taped the event and no such thing was ever said.
I wonder what the cops were actually thinking? Maybe the kid has been a pain in the ass long enough so they took a bit of revenge.
"Also, can't you have a broken (fractured) back and still walk around?"
Yeah if your injury is not too severe and you don't mind the agonising pain. I speak from experience, unfortunately.
The majority of police officers are good men and women
Sorry, but that hasn't been my experience. The ones who aren't doing it themselves are covering for those who do. That's called being an accessory when you or I do it.
Remember back when tasers started to become popular? Their selling point was supposed to be that cops wouldn't need to use guns & deadly force ... as often. Thing is, in most places, when the police used their gun (and hit someone) there was an automatic review. No such thing happens with tasers.
This extreme example should help to illustrate one of the basic policy issues that is a real problem in the use of not just tazers but any use of physical force by the police. Officers, departments, and the general public (with some exceptions) seem to accept that non-compliance justifies the use of force but as is obvious in a case like this that is not the proper standard. Non complaince can be the result of any number of conditions that do not warrant the use of physical force - such as injury.
I may be mistakenly dreaming of a fictional past golden age but I think there was a time that the use of force required a threat - if only in procedural directives and legal standards. Even if that is a fanatsy, it should become a reality. Reaction to non compliance should be evaluation (which I know may only be a split second) and then the proper course of action - sometimes force, in this case assistance.
Back in 1993, at 3 in the morning along a major (but quiet) interstate, we happened upon a guy who'd had a pretty bad motorcycle accident (visible hole through skull). Despite being a "combat lifesaver" in the Army, I was not prepared for the uncooperative nature of this guy. He was very tall, very large, reeked of alcohol, was in a great deal of pain, and probably was in shock. It was all I could do to keep his head and neck immobilized--forget about the rest of his body. We stayed with him for at least 15 minutes of intense writhing and generally uncooperative behavior before a police officer arrived and basically ordered us to leave him be and to pay no mind to the increased potential for spinal injuries that would result from our ceasing the immobilization efforts. I was flabbergasted at the officer's disregard of what was in the victim's best interest. The paramedics who arrived five minutes later were also disturbingly lackadaisical in rendering care. After reading this story, though, I can now imagine this same kind of accident resulting in the victim being tasered into compliance.
"Remember back when tasers started to become popular? Their selling point was supposed to be that cops wouldn't need to use guns & deadly force ... as often. Thing is, in most places, when the police used their gun (and hit someone) there was an automatic review. No such thing happens with tasers."
Rather my (now disemvowelled) point. Cops know what's going to trigger a review. That's why they're comfortable Q-Tipping mace into a demonstrator's eyes.
Make it a real pain in the backside for cops to use a taser. Each taser use automatically opens an independent complaint proceeding against the cop in question, where they've got to be able to defend their action by showing it was either the taser or a bullet.
...probably the kid was dazed from his fall and didn't react appropriately to the officers, or comprehend the situation, and they're the trigger-happy kind who zapped him rather than take a bit of time to think.
I can't wait for an update on this one. Now whether it's going to be "Cops repeatedly Taser defenseless, innocent kid" or "Violent youth subdued with non-lethal Taser by heroic police" remains to be seen... I wonder if the kid's parents witnessed the incident or not.
Aren't tasers now sometimes equipped with video cameras? I may be wrong, or I may be thinking of a few police-issued handguns, something like that.
Not that it would ever happen, but I'd love to see some kind of rule where anytime an officer uses a taser on a civilian, he takes a hit with one back at the precinct. I'm sure they'd still be willing to use them in situations where it's necessary to keep themselves or their fellow officers safe (which they're supposed to be reserved for anyway) but may think twice about zapping someone just for the hell of it.
Like I said, never gonna happen, but it would be nice.
alainsane,
I was in a motorcycle accident last Oct. While being inspected for internal injuries a cop kept interrupting. Asking me if I had been drinking, if I would submit to a breathalyzer. I wasn't at fault, my foot was smashed, I was bruised and in shock. I might have been hurt much worse but all that sad excuse for a human being was concerned about was DUI arrest. I told him to GTFO which was echoed by the paramedic.
- the other driver was very drunk.
In my opinion, the fact that he had a broken back is not the biggest issue here. The police were not given any indication that he was seriously injured, they had no idea that he had fallen, and they can't be expected to know that upon arrival if no one tells them.
The problem here is the use of force in a situation that did not require any use of force. There is no possible way that this kid could have been posing a credible threat to any of the officers involved, and thus there was no reason to use the taser in the first place. Furthermore, there was no reason to continue to tase him over and over and over for a grand total of 19 times.
And the fact that the PD is brushing it off and saying they were justified in their use of force against a 16-year-old boy who was laying on the ground and not armed in any way, shape or form is more than a little disturbing.
This qualifies for a rousing WTF?!?
And let's take a look at the
location of the incident.
Highway F is not a limited access highway, although it appears that US 65 is. There seems to be a shopping center northwest of the intersection, so a young man without a car would have a legitimate reason for walking across the overpass.
Dragonfrog - I once saw a guy on the Dust get up and RUN away with a 12 inch knife embedded in his leg. I'm quite certain a broken back is just a minor impediment IF HE WAS ON ANGEL DUST, which he was not, apparently.
Did the police tell the whole story here? I think not. If they tazered him 19 times, I find it hard to believe that all of those were while he was on the ground, immobile. Maybe he was, but I suspect the police are not telling the whole story, and IF THEY THOUGHT HE WAS DUSTED, then they'd have to react with totally overwhelming force to even slow him down.
All we know here is that there was totally overwhelming force. I thought of one possible reason, thanks for the derision.
MDHATTER,
Wow - you dig yourself deeper and deeper with each rant.
KID WASN'T ON DUST! (You need to get over this, seriously...)
HE WAS PRONe ON HIS BACK!
HE WASN'T POINTING A LOADED BATTLESHIP AT THE OFFICERS!
Everything the officers did in the article was wrong.
Santa, try reading my words again. You totally missed my point. Honestly.
Also, rants are usually all caps.
Santa, really, focus on the logical constructs involving "if/then" and "maybe" statements. I'm saying there's more to the story, I'm not defending the police, just saying crazy people do crazy things, and neither you nor I were there.
Watch what you're bringing to the table. It's affecting your understanding of honest commentary.
Please. I'm offering a possible explanation to an event which has one side so far, as told by the police, whom I trust only slightly more than you do.
Don't worry mdhatter, some of us can process hypotheticals.
Meanwhile, here's a guy who's guilty of causing an officer to drop his baton (warning: violence).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/30/nypd-officer-beats-man-wi_n_115819.html
Anonymous:
"The police were not given any indication that he was seriously injured, they had no idea that he had fallen, and they can't be expected to know that upon arrival if no one tells them."
If they can't infer that he fell...they need to be in other jobs. The call came when he was up on the bridge (walking) and they find him 30 feet below, immobilized. I'll give you seriously injured, you can fall that far and not be seriously injured. However, if you find a guy lying on the ground, not moving, after receiving a phone call that he was some 30 feet up just a few minutes earlier, its NATURAL to assume that he had fallen, and needed medical attention...
i think MDHATTER needs to try the "dust" himself. does anyone really call it that anymore?
#68 posted by alainsane
Most beat cops and paramedics see a few of those a night. A reeking drunk refusing help doesn't deserve any.
But in regards to the story: WTF happened there? Why didn't someone figure out the sequence of events that led up to this kid getting tasered? News at 11?
I made a video about this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jhl2TRJxWKc
to the anon. commenter #17who said, "The majority of police officers are good men and women doing a difficult job in which there is a significant probability of unforeseen violence. The problem isn't with them: it's with a technology that appears safer than it is and a political policy environment that encourages its use in marginal cases." FAIL.
every single time, every single time always, without exception, when the cops beat the shit out of someone, the victim is ALWAYS charged with "assaulting a police officer". Which shows the greater contempt for the general citizenry? The expectation that we are so stupid we will believe it? Or the expectation we are so cowardly we will never stand up and say NO?
"with no good explanation as to how he got there"
So... if you find that you have fallen and you are too out of it to tell the cops how you got there- that's a tazerin'!
. . . he's also making statements such as, ‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that.
You betcha. Gee, I really believe that one.
I hope the family sues the Ozark PD so hard the whole damn town goes into receivership.
Seriously. You want these @holes to stop using tasers, big punitive settlements are the way to go.
--Molly, NYC
Takuan:
I thought they were all charged with disorderly conduct, since you really don't have to prove anything. Either way...it does show contempt towards the population. Besides that, what about the asking for ID for everything, even as a witness. Didn't it used to be that you only had to show official ID ONLY if you were charged with a crime (or driving...since you licence is you ID...). We've become complacent. They can ruin you life, we roll over.
I've fallen and I can't get up!
(ZAP)
The answer is to have tasers which are only good for 2 or 3 charges. Guns run out of bullets, batteries can die. Sure, it would be nice to have tasers that last a long time, but apparently we can't trust the operators to use them responsibly. The only choice is to create hardware limits on the operators abilities. Although, I wonder why a taser would need more than five shots anyway. If it's a crowd that big you're SOL and if it's one person switch to lethal ammo.
Fire and prosecute. I don't see any need to sit here pissing and moaning over it any more than that.
OK, sorry for the derisive tone, MDHatter. I have no doubt that PCP can lead some people to some strange and irrational behaviours.
But if the kid was in fact doing anything that required overwhelming force, and the police failed to mention it in giving their account of the incident, I think that would be a world first.
Usually it's the other way around - the police account has the person charging at them with a rabid pitbull under each arm and a machine gun that shoots chainsaws between her knees, and when the footage shows up on youtube, it turns out the octogenarian victim was just taking too long to lie down because her walker was in her way.
In the police officers' own account of the incidents, they say he was lying on the ground, speaking incoherently, and not obeying their orders. That's it for circumstances that would support the use of overwhelming force.
Applying the above standard to the police version in this case, that means that the victim must have been lying on the ground completely immobile and silent, have already handcuffed himself as soon as he saw the approaching police car, and been wearing a T-shirt that said "God Bless Ozark Police".
MDHATTER,
You hypothetical reasoning is based on the most TENUOUS of possibilities, yet you cling to this notion to bulwark your theory like it was gospel.
To counter your argument concerning the knife in the leg, allow me to point out that I once saw a shark attack a grizzly bear. Really, I did. Many people did - it was on TV, in fact. However, the likelihood of this being the reason why "Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires" is so nebulous as to make it effectively impossible. Especially when others keep pointing out that this is not the case.
You have lost your argument - your logic has been REPEATEDLY proven false; yet, you refuse to admit this and continue to blather like you have won some sort of professional debate. No matter how much snark you endeavor to parlay in your responses, it changes nothing.
I think everyone forgets what you two were arguing about, could you re-cap?
Takuan: :)
I say that there is no way that the actions of the police were warranted.
MDHatter seems to think that, because anyone could be on drugs at any time, we all need a good tazin' to serve and protect the public's safety should we not comply to orders with alacrity.
I just read all Dr. Hatter's comments in this thread and can't see that.
It doesn't say where in the proceedings he made threats to the police either. Anything you say can be used as evidence against you, but how many of us, having just been pointlessly tasered, could refrain from saying "‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that..."?
AEON:
"but how many of us, having just been pointlessly tasered, could refrain from saying "‘Shoot cops, kill cops,’ things like that..."?"
I'm sure that if they used that as a justification (as they did) that it had to have happened before at least the 19th tasering. And at some point after he fell and broke his back. I'm wondering if it was said in sentences, or between jolts.
I would assume that a vast majority of us would likely be unconscious or otherwise unable to speak after being hit 19 times. So I'd say most would refrain from saying something like that. Or rather...most would BE refrained from saying something like that...
MDHATTER wrote, "Well, there goes the only possible justification I could think of - and with it (hopefully) a large chunk of those officers retirement savings."
You see? He stood corrected. Everything after that was discussion about things that can happen when PCP is involved, which he had already acknowledged was not the case.
Can we be back on track now?
Santa's Knee, you really are just intentionally misunderstanding me at this point.
FWIW, I think there's a chance the cops threw the kid off the overpass, or tazered him so he fell.
But no, somehow I'm your opponent. Please stop reading into what I say, and start reading exactly what I said. You've made me some sort of strawman here, and it's not pretty. It is epic fail.
Or "Shoot ME cops, Kill ME cops".
Seriosuly, too many unknowns for any of us to know, but can we all agree 19 shots with a tazer was at least 18 too many, bro?
Well, what IS your track, Hagbard?
Other than agreeing with MDHatter in post #68 and posting a link that was irrelevant to the topic, that is.
What is it that YOU wanted to say that had ANYTHING to do with the "track"?
I have been warned by MD to "Watch what (I'm) bringing to the table...it's affecting (my) understanding of honest commentary" and stood up for myself by debunking his points.
Yes, he stood corrected and then kept right on going.
And to the MDHatter:
All caps is more of a tirade than a rant.
I've been wondering: how does one know how many times a victim was tasered? How did they come up with "at least 19"? Is it dart puncture marks?
18 shots with a tazer is ***18*** too many, friend.
"What is known is that a couple driving southbound noticed a man running east on F Highway toward the overpass who appeared "drunk or high because he was stumbling," according to the police report. The man ran up to the passenger side of the minivan the couple was in and struck the glass.
The couple then called 911 and Ozark police responded to check the well being of the man, the report said. Before police could arrive, a second 911 call came into Ozark dispatch reporting a man lying on the shoulder of the southbound lanes of U.S. 65 Highway, the police report said.
When police arrived, they found Mace Hutchinson "yelling incoherently and (he) began to stand up in a motion toward the lanes of traffic," the report said. After several attempts, the report said one officer used his taser to subdue Hutchinson to keep him from entering traffic on U.S. 65 Highway.
A second officer used his taser on the teenager after he continued to resist and attempt to get up and move toward the lanes of traffic.
Ozark Police Chief Lyle Hodges said one officer activated a taser 10 times and a second officer activated his taser nine times.
"We go by active resistance, not just a simple refusal to comply," Hodges said of his department's policy governing taser use. "That's why a taser was used in the first place-the taser wouldn't have been deployed if the officer didn't think the young man's life was in danger. And the incident all took place over a period of 96 seconds."
Stephanie Hutchinson said her son told her he had gotten into an argument with a friend in a parking lot just east of the F Highway overpass. She said she didn't know who the friend was or his name, but that the two were supposed to share a motel room in Springfield to celebrate her son's 17th birthday.
"He remembers walking up to the bridge," Stephanie Hutchinson said. "But he doesn't remember anything else until he was tasered."
Stephanie Hutchinson claims her son was not under the influence of any alcohol or drugs the night of the incident, but did admit the hospital told her a "trace" of marijuana was found in her son's system.
Hodges said no charges were filed, that officers only responded to a check well being call that turned into a medical call. Despite what police say her son's behavior was that night, Stephanie Hutchinson claims the police went overboard.
"I think they tried to kill him," Stephanie Hutchinson said. "With 19 tases, that's not even giving him a chance. I feel like this is something that should be investigated."
Hodges said an internal review is currently being conducted on the two officers involved and is initiated every time a taser is used."
And the fact that I can't count is a sign that I am done for the night.
I agree that we disagree, MDH.
I can not see ANY reason for the police's actions that could be even remotely excusable, and I was an MP.
Good night.
Santa, don't tease me bro.
I'm sorry Santa's Knee, you're right.
Instead of saying "can we be back on track now", I should have said, "will you please work on your reading comprehension?"
Santa, wtf. We AGREE. PAY ATTENTION. Seriously. wow. The only part I object to is you endlessly calling me out when we already agree about 85% of the point. If you need to win, fine, whatever, here's your cookie.
Also, I have no idea what an MP is, can I make fun of you because of MY miscomprehension of your words? I can, but I'm being courteous. Take a lesson.
Overall it sounds to me like a sad kid got dissed by his lover, and handled it very poorly, then the police handled it very very very poorly.
That said, if he was getting up and walking onto the interstate after falling 30 feet, well, as far as I know the police don't have drug tests that work at that distance, and pretty much the only humans who can manage that sort of feat are on some serious hard drugs, or are seriously mentally ill.
(Seriously, I wonder about some of the commenters in this thread being similarly afflicted)
OK, I'm trying to imagine myself a cop. And Tazing a bro TEN times. After that, I still feel that I, or the public, is in danger. Wouldn't you just shoot them at that point? I can't comprehend the "nineteen times" part of the story. (Unless it's abuse that doesn't automatically trigger an investigation. In which case it makes perfect sense.)
Takuan, was that link you posted this one?
http://www.zwire.com/site/tab6.cfm?newsid=19876869
That is so very odd - that the police had all this information that justified their actions, and didn't get it out there immediately. Why on earth would they let this story go out without making sure everyone knew that part of the story?
I mean, you can question their exact choices, maybe they were misguided, but you can see that they were not just trying to torture some poor kid because he didn't jump when they told him.
Oh, and MDH - MP = Military Police (I'm guessing he meant in the N American sense of police whose jurisdiction is military bases, not the S American sense of police who shoot civilians with machine guns from helicopters)
Waitaminnit now
Orignal story:
“He looked a little agitated but, other than that, he didn't look to be falling down drunk or anything like that,” he said. "
vs. later story:
"a couple driving southbound noticed a man running east on F Highway toward the overpass who appeared "drunk or high because he was stumbling,"
Granted, no conspiracy necessary - shoddy journalism will do the trick nicely, I think - but that's an interesting reversal.
I'm sorry, I do not see how this additional information in any way excuses the police.
http://www.afn.org/~iguana/archives/2005_04/20050402.html
I'm not saying the didn't act like idiots. We can expect this - every profession has its share of idiots.
My point was just that they were not torturing a helpless kid for the offence of lying helplessly on his back, but (in an idiotic way) subduing someone who was trying to die by throwing himself into traffic.
Sask. ombudsman report on Tasers released
James Wood , Saskatchewan News Network
Published: Tuesday, July 29, 2008
REGINA -- The provincial ombudsman has set a good direction for the government to follow if it ever decides to revisit its shelved plans to introduce Tasers into Saskatchewan jails, says Corrections, Public Safety and Policing Minister Darryl Hickie.
The report by ombudsman Kevin Fenwick released Tuesday said there is not enough reliable information on the health impact of Tasers, echoing comments made last week by the Saskatchewan Police Commission in rescinding its earlier approval of their use by front-line police.
Nor is there adequate information on whether the situation in correctional centres warrants the use of Tasers, despite the contention of Corrections staff that the environments have become more volatile, said the report.
Dragonfrog:
I'm thinking the same thing...
I guess the only way to know is to get the entire video they shot. See if the guy was misreported the first time.
It is possible too that there were 3 calls to 911. The first from the earlier couple (agitated), then from the later couple (stumbling), and then the one about his being under the overpass.
This seems like a good case for Dr. House.
First teen to die in stun gun incident
Canwest News Service
Published: Friday, July 25, 2008
The 17-year-old who died after being shot with a Taser by Winnipeg police this week is the youngest person to die in a Taser incident in Canada, according to Amnesty International.
"It is definitely the youngest person by several years," said Hilary Homes, a security and human rights campaigner for the human rights group.
"He's definitely the first teenager."
Police used a Taser on Michael Langan, 17, in a lane behind a Winnipeg home Tuesday.
Police have said the teen was a suspect in an attempted car theft.
autistic child
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1758156/posts
six year old
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/15/taser_kids_zapped/
1 week, 2 kids
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4610759/detail.html
Takuan, only to the extent that if he was trying to run into traffic, he was a danger to himself and others. Better to stun him, repeatedly, than fight with him on the side of a highway. I'm assuming the police were being lazy, and didn't want to fight him (maybe becuase he just fell 30 feet, and was clearly injured, but still getting up anyhow).
It's still pretty clear the officers overreacted, but it does sound like the boy was self-motivated to finish the deed. Poor kid, really.
Takuan, Dragonfrog doesn't mean tasering is justified. He's just suprised the police - or the report - didn't try to justify what the police did.
it takes a taser to raise a child
http://www.geocities.com/fountoftruth/taser.html
Side note: I suppose the lack of clarity is my fault. I just gave him a rather stiff drink. Sorry!
if this was your child, would you let the cop live?
Takuan - I'd pour you one too if you were here.
unarmed, mentally handicapped, frightened woman video
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f3b_1196720667
if this was your child, would you let the cop live?
After some time in court, yes. Would I let him keep his job, or any other related job, not if I could help it.
But seriously - if this police officer loses his job, you're just going to run into him at the airport in the TSA line where he'll be even LESS accountable. ;)
taser shots? That would have to be schnapps. Or akavit.
watery lager + cheap bourbon + a 9V battery.
Like a boilermaker, but when you shoot it back, it shocks your tongue.
Given the new (revised?) story of the incident it seems like a more tenable case for using the taser might be possible (I'd still likely have my doubts) but what struck me in the newer version was that it all happened in 96 seconds - that's 19 shockings in 96 seconds!
They shocked him approximately once every five seconds!
I am willing to listen to attempted defense of that but my head might explode just by hearing someone try
certainly not PCP (can you even get that anymore?)
but, given the proximity to cow shit...
not sayin', just sayin' is all...
shrooms don't do that
Takuan: Aren't you the harbinger of depressing, horribly news. All those links filled me with utter outrage.
I always used to stand up for the cops - my scout leader was a Senior Sargent and an great guy, helped show me that the Police are there to protect and serve and had a very enlightened attitude to stupid laws (marijuana possesion and use being a big one.)
But for the life of me... the Constables. Straight out of the Academy, looking to bullybash and pick on anyone who they feel doesn't look quite right. As a youngish male with foolish haircuts I get targeted alot, and it's become quite hard not to dislike and utterly distrust cops in general because of it.
My state hasn't introduced Tasers yet, but the rest slowly are, so I figure it's only a matter of time before, y'know, I get tased for a speeding violation.
yes TAKUAN not to you or I. but there is no absolute. certain body chemistry and all that. just a suggestion based on the "no test for toxins" rule. i'm just advocating for a client is all.
take away the tasers. Bullets HAVE to be explained properly, hence they are used less. Steel club wounds HAVE to be explained. Little "mosquito bites" are always explained away. Until someone dies.
that approach means it could have been anything. Food allergy. Flu. TIA.
well...yeah, but it's always nice interacting with you.
et vous,
http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/weapons/mg19626296.400-taserproof-clothing-creates-new-hazard.html
merci beaucoup. oh, and TIA?
Takuan isn't depressing, he's VERY DEPRESSING ;)
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4781
not at all my child, by shepherding you through the depths of knurd, I arm you to survive the harsher realms. Donations in the jar by the door as you leave, thank you you very much.
oh, i've had those before. didn't realize it was serious. thanks for puting a name to my twisted face. cheers
of course he didn't comply... he was too busy thrashing around in convulsions from the electric shock... oh these idiots need taking out and smacking around the head... I'm convinced most American cops ARE just like CHief Wiggum in The Simpsons...
Oh, I thought that you meant T&A.
that is the advanced course
i've had that(those?) as well. maybe around the same time. who knows...
This reminds me of that guy who got tasered
for being a security threat, but turned out to be in a diabetic coma.
What if that guy had gotten up and used splinters from his broken spine to stab someone to death? What then, smarty-pants? Huh? Huh?
Takuan,
I'd be more inclined to believe excited delirium, over a 17 year old having a TIA... It's happened...but those are usually reserved for older people...
Takuan@139: Little "mosquito bites" are always explained away.
Always? from your link @130.
"Riggs was later suspended for 10 days without pay after the IA investigation concluded that he'd used excessive force and failed to make a use-of-force report. He resigned about six months after the incident."
mdhatter@145: Takuan isn't depressing, he's VERY DEPRESSING
I'm getting the impression that depression isn't something Takuan does, but something he is.
Because some cops are power-hungry assholes who will flex their authority every chance they get, especially if they feel like some punk kid isn't giving them enough respect despite the fact that he's incapacitated. That's why.
Hmm. I find Takuan more enthusiastic than depressing. Kind of - really smart golden retriever puppy with access to internets. . .
only the tongue
And the hind leg. (again, with a wink) ;)
I thought the truth brings joy and happiness
Sorry I'm late for this party.
BLACKBIRD@19: "WTF did they charge him with?"
Why, they charged him with a hell of a lot of electricity! That much is clear. (I'll be here all week... Try the veal.)
But seriously folks, no matter what he was babbling incoherently, when is it a crime to say anything in this country? If he wasn't holding a weapon, there is absolutely no justification for what they did, even once, much less 19 times! If they wanted him to stay out of traffic, there are a plethora of other options that could have been employed. You have to be at very close range to tase someone. How about a good 'ol fashioned interposing of themselves between the victim and the traffic? Why do they always have to leap straight to taser target practice?
One more quick point: The 2nd article TAK pasted here states there was a "trace of marijuana" in his system. Cannabis stays in the system in trace amounts for a full 30 days, which means that he had not consumed any as recently as to be affecting his behavior that night.
No matter how you slice it, these cops do not deserve to be "protecting the peace" even one day longer. They should also be sued for all they may ever earn at their new vocations for the complications they may have inflicted upon the boy's fragile health at the time of the incident.
I live in this town (Ozark) and first let me tell you it is not uncommon to see a minivan full of kids, driven by a soccer mom pulled over by sometimes two if not three ozark police officers. Absoulutely ridiculous! I suppose they have to search the juice boxes!
This is an absolutely disgusting display of too much authority in the wrong peoples hands.
Somebody said it on here earlier. The duties of the men and women we as tax paying citizens employe is to protect and serve. Not maime and taze 19 TIMES!!!!
I feel terrible for this boy and his family. And if there is anyone from this area that would like to start a grass roots movement for change in our local police departments in the name of this victim I am with you 100%!
You've gotta be careful with looking for explanations. It's diverting, and tempting because we want to think there might be a good reason for actions that seem out of the pale, or maybe because we want to be fair. But sometimes trying to make the other person (in this case those officers of the Ozark PD involved) seem reasonable makes it easier to explain away or excuse the problem.
Conversely, sometimes investigation makes them look worse. In this case, they're looking worse the more I read.
Here is an idea:
Each cop involved gets 19 prolonged shots from his own Taser, then goes on unpaid administrative leave forever.
Make sure to insert a fresh battery first.
Another thought:
Would the cops in this case be charged by a military court if they did this to an Al-Qeada terrorist while they were on duty in Iraq?