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That's the American Dream. An election in which neither candidate cares about your civil liberties.
If wiretaps were legal (issued by a judge), would they be okay? Or should such actions always be forbidden? I think most people can think of a few examples where listening in would be okay.
Fuck it. He's still got my vote. He's the only chance we have. He's not perfect, but he's electable.
"I think most people can think of a few examples where listening in would be okay. "
yes there are specific instances where your privacy can be breached. But not in the current "cast a wide net and spy on anyone who might be (read: is brown, or outspokenly anti establishment) a terrorist" sense.
@4: Sure -- but he's gone from "best choice" to "least worst choice" with one vote.
@ Jeff
The issue is that if breaking the law in these instances was really necessary (e.g. the so-called "ticking time bomb scenario") then the lawbreakers (i.e. telcos) should be willing to accept the consequences of violating the law. The fact that they sought amnesty from prosecution proves that illegally providing warrantless wiretaps was unnecessary.
And that is how a frog gets boiled... never too hot too fast.@ All Jelly No Toast
Prepare for the collapse of the American Empire and then vote McCain to make it happen. Better to face survivalism than a prison planet. Make the frog jump out of the water because it's too hot.
he's still my man, but this moving to the center bullshit to get more votes is harshing my buzz.
The US gov't has always done questionable things on our behalf. Even Kennedy. Even Washington.
at least Obama isn't frakking 72 years old.
Why do people react like they didn't know that Obama is still a politician, and is governed by his party's wishes? Jesus, it's pretty damn simple...
I'm voting for Obama.
'08: End of an Error. TFSU
If the Govt. has a reasonable cause to wiretap, why the hell can't they get a warrant? Even if we have to assign a team of judges to the task. Americans must embrace and uphold our constitution. Obama may still be the lesser of evils, but he's clearly in the evil camp now.
Ah, yes... the "pick your corporate master" game... and if they don't like the corporate master you pick... they'll arrange it so it doesn't matter.
In Diebold we trust...
@6
"Sure -- but he's gone from "best choice" to "least worst choice" with one vote."
Yay America, land of the, "if he doesn't agree with me on every single issue, frak em"-attitude.
*sigh*. yes, wire-tapping is bad, but honestly, if you agree with 99% of everything else he votes on/proposes, dont get your panties in a twist.
Zuzu, I'm sure we agree that the current administration has failed in many ways. People in power will always find a way to rationalize their ethics. The problem with intelligence gathering technology is that almost anyone can utilize it. I have a feeling that more than a few people who look into BoingBoing have access to some pretty deep data bases. I'm worried about the private sector almost as much as I about the feds.
what a great way to ignorantly encapsulate a complicated constitutional issue!
A. Let's defeat the bill and continue to allow illegal wiretaps on all communication, international and domestic, without recourse by the FISA courts
OR
B. Let's pass the bill as a stopgap, that now puts restrictions on domestic wiretapping and makes the FISA court accountable to upholding the law for once.
hmmmm B seems like the better choice to me, put that on a poster MARK
Obama may still be the lesser of evils, but he's clearly in the evil camp now.
So "hold your nose" as you vote. It's the big thing this year, and the machine will probably just miscount your vote anyhow. Or you can hope.
@11
do you even understand the issue? the bill that obama did vote for and everyone is whining about does require that a warrant is obtained through the FISA court for domestic wiretaps. UGH this bill does not cover international wiretaps. it's called a compromise. this was not all or nothing, this was nothing or compromise.
Listening to Democracy Now! today I heard Naomi Klein say something rather brilliant, something along the lines of Obama needing people to hold him accountable, not super-fans. It seems absurd to simply curse, shrug ones shoulders and ignore this troubling issue...
In discussions some of my super-fan coworkers stumble all over themselves trying to explain away things like this.
A government spying on its people is never acceptable and if he was really interested in change, well, he might support censure...
This man looks less and less appealing to me as the days go on. There is a high chance my vote will be cast in his favor, but will I feel more dirty than I did when I voted for Kerry? Time will tell... in the meantime Obama will keep on approving bills that fund wars he claims not to support and roll over for individuals and corporations with the big bucks.
@15
it will take a revolution to make the elected old men in our government wake up to their own ignorance.
Of course they can. This is all just pussyfooting around the simple fact that they didn't, which nobody seems willing to come right out and say.
In doing so they broke so many major laws that too many "important" people were involved, and would have to be sent to jail if this ever got into the courts. Hence, the investigation must be crushed at any cost.
Aren't you about due for a new civil war by now?
@13 I agree. I am very disappointed that Obama did not take a stronger stand on this issue. But bottom line, once the amendments to eliminate/limit/delay telecoms immunity were defeated, the final vote was a foregone conclusion and the cloture vote was not even close. So Obama's votes had no practical effect on the outcome. Still, I wish he had take a symbolic stand. But he didn't.
People need to get some perspective and get a grip.
There are legitimate reasons to be pessimistic about politics. If that makes you want to punt on the whole thing and retreat to nihilistic defeatism, then go for it.
But if you do want to participate in this election, then please consider whether monkeywrenching Obama is really the most productive thing you can be doing.
Aren't you about due for a new civil war by now?
Not particularly, No.
hp smn ss fr cpyrght nfrngmnt cnsdrng y'v stln th rt, th mgry, vrythng, nd jst twstd th ln lttl bt. Tht's nt vn ntllgnt str. G gt jb t th Nw Yrkr.
#4
I'm with you and your reasoning, Jelly; he's got my vote, but I don't think he is electable, and he's getting less electable every day. Sad, but I'm almost getting used to voting for losers.
@ #15 KRAYYY:
"B. Let's pass the bill as a stopgap, that now puts restrictions on domestic wiretapping and makes the FISA court accountable to upholding the law for once."
Makes FISA court accountable to upholding the law for once? How exactly does it do that?
I'm sure it's a big relief to the politicians and oligarchs to see that even after all this, everyone is still squabbling about who to vote for.
Once people start picking up on the fact that voting has lost almost all of the power it once held, and that any kind of meaningful or worthwhile change cannot come through either mainstream candidate, then things get ugly for the people in power.
Because then, people stop fetishizing their "vote" and start looking for other, more creative and effective ways of manifesting their political power. Because we are powerful, each of us. We've just invested all that power in the idea that politicians will represent us fairly. It's time to reevaluate that investment, and get involved in other ways of participating in the socio-political environment.
IRISHSPACEMONK might just need a hug!
@Buddy66
then something in the machinations is working if everyone else starts to feel that way as well...
As a proud red state voter, I'm all for wire taps. The US government can check my emails and listen to my phone calls all they want - I have nothing to hide.
As far as politics are concerned, I'm convinced the politicians are like wrestlers - they all go drink beer at the same bar after the cameras are turned off. As long as our president isn't in the oil business I don't care who wins. My few liberal, conspiracy theory friends have me convinced that the super rich are the ones pulling the strings behind it all. Something about the Illuminati...
@TRVTH:
God, I hope you're a troll.
@TRVTH
this isn't Slashdot, but that is kind of funny.
@#10 posted by jdw242b
"at least Obama isn't frakking 72 years old."
Yeah? How do you like this: At least McCain isn't frakking black.
I'm in Chicago (Obama Ground Zero) and to speak even less than glowingly of the man around, why them is fightin' words.
The NY Times had a pretty solid editorial on Obama's recent move to "the center".
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/04/opinion/04fri1.html?_r=1&ex=1215835200&en=d39ee47042c5be46&ei=5070&emc=eta1&oref=slogin
Personally, I decry the center completely. Give me Jefferson and Adams, give me Lincoln and Douglas. Don't try to be all things to all people, just give us your best and let us decide.
Candidates became commodities very quickly.
I defaulted to supporting Obama, after Ron Paul didn't make the cut. Now that he's broke his commitment to fight telecom immunity and protect our civil liberties, I sort of agree with Zuzu--I'm very tempted to vote for McCain now. Better to boil the water fast and deal with the burns than ending up being slowly boiled to death.
Americans are slowly coming to accept the encroachments of mass media subversion and a nanny state, which could eventually become an indomitable police state. There aren't enough of us that know the warning signs and care enough to educate others and something about it.
@Buddy66
and your point, because I don't see one there.
@25 XOPL
read the bill if you dare. that is a big piece of this legislation. if you were instead to listen only to the MSM and apparently places like boingboing and mark F you would think that obama was giving into everything the repulicans wanted, and fliped his position on it totally.
NOT TRUE. the bill allows for domestic warrants to be required a la FISA. THIS WAS NOT IN PLACE BEFORE THIS BILL.
let us not be lemmings. it is not a perfect bill, but when you have a veto happy president (at this point), and a non effective majority, you are gonna have to live with imperfection at the moment.
Who knows what he is really going to do. I am willing to bet anyone is going to be better then the sold out party of the republicans. And all you republican brainwashed morons can eat this statement and stfu. "Republicans stand for less government and less taxes" Since when? All I ever see is a metric ton of lies and insane spending.
#35,
Then you look but you don't see.
@TRVTH: "As a proud red state voter, I'm all for wire taps. The US government can check my emails and listen to my phone calls all they want - I have nothing to hide."
What does being a red-stater have to do with supporting wiretaps? My brand of conservatism says the government should stay the hell out of my business.
No WURP, I'm not - though I knew that my post would be perceived as a troll post. Honestly, of all the people I've spoken with on this matter, everyone has agreed with my philosophy on wire taps except for those few liberal friends I mentioned. I guess those that agree with you are either all living in New York, California, or some other blue state. Without adding emotion into the argument, I haven't seen any good arguments against wire taps. They are looking for key words - they could care less about what you and your friends are doing after work, or that girl you think is hot, or the recipe for your grandmother's lasagna. Just what kind of emails or conversations are you so worried about?
I'm assuming that Buddy is pointing out that criticizing Senator McCain for his age is a cheap shot that adds nothing of value to the discussion. The guy's mother is still alive and apparently able to kick ass. If you want to criticize him, do it for his politics, not his wrinkles.
@buddy66
and to clarify, my fucking city has an old rich man mayor, a waffling black city councilman, a whining moron city councilman that does nothing, one lady that is new to the city council and has no record yet, and one other man that is new on the city council. The mayor continues to rape us with his absolute stupidity, and the others are like a circus act. So I'm way biased when it comes to how old people are when discussing public office.
How do YOU like THAT?
I'm insulted. And older than no-brain McCain. You can kiss my wrinkled . . . knuckles.
@41 Antinous
Yes, I see that, however, my #42 post sums up my angst in that arena. I do get that it's an association to think McCain would ruin the country like our idiot mayor is doing to my hometown.
My point is that experience issue that they keep touting is basically a veneer for cupidity, and I take people to task for that. Having many things doesn't make one person better than anyone else.
All those things are impermanent.
@buddy66
my apologies; my mother said to respect my elders, and I've not done that.
However, calling out the race card was a low blow. Would you rather have Obama carryin in yer wash?
#44 lays out my feelings on age and office.
The way it was explained to me was that if he were to actively oppose the bill he'd come off as weak on terrorism. This is not to say he would be so much as it would be easy as pie for the other side to parlay it into such, and a large percentage of the voting population is so weak minded as to buy it hook, line and sinker.
Trvth #29, if you have nothing to hide, why are you posting under a pseudonym? (I somehow doubt "Trvth" is your legal name.)
(Before you accuse me of hypocrisy for not using my last name, let me point out that it's trivially discoverable from my profile page.)
@talia
well, the government has shoved terrorism as a danger down our throats for 7 years, and it's slowly been bought hook, line, and sinker.
The problem is they have no valid arguments to take the insane steps that have been taken to combat terrorism, apart from creating a fear based campaign of lies, deceit, and idiocy. I cite the TSA as my example of idiocy.
If one were able to prepare for any and every eventuality, in existence or not, then they'd be psychic and terrorism wouldn't exist.
Here's what I don't get. If Senator McCain panders to the Right, he picks up voters without losing many. If Senator Obama panders to the Right, he loses his core constituency but probably doesn't pick up many voters. So what's the strategy? Is Senator Obama in 2008 any further to the left than Senator McCain was in 2000? I'd say that he's actually to the right of 2000 McCain. That says a lot about the current state of the US.
@TROLLVTH #40
So what happens when one of your "few liberal, conspiracy theory friends" decides to send you an email from a foreign account that has certain keywords in it that get your identity swept up in the automagic government dragnet that is now completely legal, and has long been in place?
Did you consider that? They've removed the judge from that scenario. For any and all foreign emails to your account, they are free to read the contents, log who the communication was with (YOU), and data mine with impunity. Did you not understand this part?
And they don't have to go through a judge to put you on the No-Fly list at the airport. Enjoy that extra wait! And there's plenty of other things they could do to make your life a living hell if "terrorists" keep sending you email. Doesn't matter if you solicited those emails -- or phone calls maybe?
Also, do you realize that your position is un-American? Do you realize how many people had to die in order to give you the right to be free from unreasonable, unwarranted search? And now you are just apathetic to the government violating the 4th Amendment of the Constitution.
Y hv t b trll, r n dt. Y pck whch.
@17
"do you even understand the issue?"
I ask the same question of you. The "compromise" allows for an "emergency" wiretap of up to 7 days, at which point a warrant is required...but if the judge refuses, they can continue to go for 30 days, and ask again...and then another 30 days...and then another 30...and then another 30.
They can wiretap for *four months* without a warrant. *Then* they have to stop.
I.e., effectively speaking, it's warrantless wiretaps.
@antinous
Here's also another question. As Senator Barack Obama eats his own words, is caught erasing history, and then bashing John MacCain for a stance he previously used against him, where is the accountability for The Obamessiah?
I covered the topic here:
http://www.vctrsppstn.cm/ndx.php/st/cmmnts/th_dsssctr/
From the article:
WASHINGTON - Barack Obama’s campaign scrubbed his presidential Web site over the weekend to remove criticism of the U.S. troop “surge” in Iraq, the Daily News has learned.
The presumed Democratic nominee replaced his Iraq issue Web page, which had described the surge as a “problem” that had barely reduced violence.
Yeah, there's some real integrity for ya. I think what drives you to asl those questions, is because John McCain has studied positions that he feels are right. Barack Obama ran on idealistic positions, he knew he would have to fold on later. He also held onto far left rhetoric in his tussle with Hillary.
He's got an uphill battle, I'm afraid. A real lack of experience, flawed policies, and a poor voting record on free trade all spell bad news for the Obaminator.
XOPL, none of my friends would use any of those "key words" and your scenario is an extreme example. Also you are very emotional, calm down. I always know I've won a debate when the other side starts using personal insults. "If you don't have a valid point, use an extreme example and call them a idiot."
IrishSpaceMonk #23, first, acquaint yourself with the facts -- Mark didn't make that poster, someone else made it, using an automatic generator, and it's clearly fair-use satire. Second, if you're going to toss around accusations, do it politely.
Xopl #50, play nice.
@ KRAYYY #36
Actually, doesn't the 4th Amendment already make the guarantee for domestic surveillance?
And didn't the old FISA already make getting a warrant from the FISA court within 72 hours the exclusive means by which to do this surveillance?
If the Executive Branch chooses to ignore this new FISA bill, why do you think there would be anything done to hold them accountable when there was nothing done the first umpteen times they violated the old FISA? What makes it any different this time?
Terrorists don't use those key words either. They use code words. And code words can change.
Searching for key words is useless. This ought to be obvious. I don't understand why people buy this argument.
FISA wiretapping is not about catching terrorists who use key words.
@manwhore
still better ratings in my book than McCain and his ambition to follow the current C Student's policies.
He's a politician. All of the hero-worshiping hipsters need to realize that.
Clinton voted right on this one, for those of you who didn't know.
My position is that there will be mistakes made by this program, and having "nothing to hide" will not keep you safe from these mistakes.
@JDW
It's not "still better" when the C student's plan was the one that worked. So much so that the D student must now concede and admit it did, and support it.
Do you get it?
So while we are crucifying the more progressive candidate for a debatable position on a complex, nuanced issue, the conservatives are engaging in this sort of discourse.
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6983645&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1
Perspective, people, perspective.
#45.
People more sensitive than I call such a bias ageism and compare it to other biases that tend to diminish a person's humanity. My question was meant to point out that you were doing in spirit the same thing racists do. I did not bid the race card, I merely trumped your opening so you could see how silly a game you initiated with an insensitive remark.
I know you're joking when you ask if I would have Obama carry in my wash, but the real joke is that he probably would, since he is an office seeker who wants my vote; but if that isn't credible enough, he would probably do it out of respect—hang on now, you're about to be in over your head—since I am a civil rights veteran who, among other things, participated in Freedom Summer and the 1965 Selma-Montgomery march.
Did I, as you say, play the race card? No, but I am now, however immodestly.
So while we are crucifying the more progressive candidate for a debatable position on a complex, nuanced issue, the conservatives are engaging in this sort of discourse.
Conservatives, or "a" conservative? We got that one covered too, buddy!
http://www.vctrsppstn.cm/ndx.php/st/cmmnts/pls_dnt_prrt_stpd_mms/
Oh noez, Not all conservatives are alike!
Are we forgetting McCain is the guy to beat.
Hey! Who needs Neocon smear tactics when we can destroy Obama and empower McCain FOR them! Yay! We can do it!
Idiots. This is what is called "eating one's own". We'll slowly destroy Obama so over single issues so that McCain can win the White House, appoint conservative judges to the Supreme Court that I guarantee will make you long for the days of Bush Jr. and continue to serve the needs of Exxon, Haliburton and the like. Oh, and if you think your civil liberties are at risk under Dubya or would be more so under Obama then I suggest you use the internet to research something other than headlines and talking points about all these people. But heck, go ahead, fight the right battles at the WRONG time. McCain and company will thank you.
Never mind bad application of the new "law" it may not pass judicial scrutiny, period, irrespective of cases. Don't know Yankee Law but seems that legislation on its face contrary to the Bill o' Rights would be struck down by the first competent judge it was brought up before...don't know how well this thing is drafted vis-a-vis getting around the Case Law but if it's as egregious an assault on the 4th Amendment as some say I would think that this won't be "law" long.
Obama knows that this may be the result anyway so why give Repubs a gimme by voting against it? The Other Branch has something to say about Legislation too after all...
"However, calling out the race card was a low blow."
Not really, buddy was presenting a stupid comment to call attention to the stupidity of a separate comment. Age does not immediately make someone senile and fit to wield political power. I don't support McCain but its not because of how old he is. I support Obama but its not because of what color he is.
The right wing nazi propoganda machine has its act together. Too bad they can't stop the mass exodus from the current administrations sinking ship. Stay the course. The economy is strong. Sadam has WMD's
Now try and discredit Obama while not mentioning the neo-con nazi's.
Good luck with that.
BTW, anyone wishing to properly satirise Obama posters should buy a set of Gotham fonts from Hoefler & Frere-Jones:
http://www.identifont.com/show?HU7
Oh, and watch your kerning, people. Thx.
(End of design pedantry.)
My friend Benny F. once said "they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." He was right.
manwhore,
No links to your blog, please.
I was ticked when Obama flip-flopped on FISA. But look at the range of issues the man will face as president.
Ever gotten over-extended in your life? Trying to do too much because you're not picking your battles, and then watching 2/3 of what you worked your ass off to accomplish fall apart?
Sometimes you're really looking forward to getting the car fixed, and then the house catches fire. Choose wisely.
I believe TechCrunch was the first to post a "poster" in this vein.
@krayyy #36: "veto happy president"? Hardly; rather than veto, he just adds signing statements to declare how he's going to ignore the law (which he then does with impunity). So if Bush is already ignoring standing law regarding eavesdropping, what's the point?
What this law accomplishes is to share that impunity with the complicit telcos, so we can never find out the true level of surveillance.
I didn't notice the "veto happy president" bit until now.
As of May 2008, President Bush has vetoed only 10 bills since taking office in January 2001; only one occurred before Democrats took control of Congress in January 2007. This is the fewest of any modern President; in March 2006 Bush set a 200 year veto record. Source: US Senate. http://uspolitics.about.com/od/electionissues/tp/Bush-Vetos.htm
His vetoes may be partisan, but they are few.
@66
I'm sort of at a loss as to how to respond to opinions like this. Obama is a United States Senator. You don't get to that level without understanding compromise and without compromising yourself in ways you (I hope) and I can only imagine. But Obama was selling himself as an agent of change--it's only natural that people who fell for the spiel will be disenchanted as he makes his dash to the center (which, as astutely pointed out above, is well to the right of McCain 2000). These 'single issues' are what matter to different people. Some people haven't accepted that Obama is the same old thing in a different package. So, they get hacked off.
I have voted since 1978 for the biggest parade of douchebags a party could every generate, the Democratic presidential candidate. Even the guy who won twice, Clinton, was a sell-out scumbag, untouched by any progressive impulses. So, I apologize if I refuse to believe that Obama is just pretending on FISA until he's been elected and then, oh boy, look out! Also, if Democratic candidates would stop excelling at being such awesome sell-outs, perhaps the cannibalization factor might diminish.
Sorry for the cynicism, but if the Democratic party has earned any response, this is it.
I made that poster out of frustration over a candidate I've given money to (several times - the first time I gave money to a candidate) and began believing in. I've seen him speak in a small town several times now, shook his hand twice and spoke with him briefly. I had a similar experience with Hillary Clinton in a small town setting (I introduced her to my daughter).
I believe that I read people well. And I got a completely different vibe from Obama than Clinton.
More importantly than flaming the opposing candidate, I believe it's our duty as voters/citizens to question and hold accountable OUR candidate.
Obama did not win the primary on a platform of compromise with the Bush doctrine. And I am disappointed that so many Obama supporters aren't willing to hold him accountable for supporting compromises with something like immunity for 4th amendment violations. It's absurd.
Obama is running on change. He is going to lose his passionate base and the election with it if he doesn't display a pattern to that effect starting now. There will be no Nader to blame, no hanging chads, no Swift Boaters. The Democratic party has to start standing FOR something. How many wake up calls do they need? They've lost to Bush TWICE.
It will soon be three if they don't get it together quickly. Obama had nothing to gain by voting for that bill, and everything to lose by not taking a stance and standing against a bill that unconstitutionally grants retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that participated in the Bush's illegal domestic wiretapping program.
~ Author, LivingInSmallSizes.com
So who am I supposed to vote for?
I can't revolt because I've got a lot of stuff I'm in the middle of.
down with spys
Yes this is just one issue of many and I also am not fond of one-issue politics. But the reason this is such a big deal is because it speaks of whether or not someone running for the Presidency holds the Bill of Rights as truly inalienable (which is a secular way or saying 'sacred'), or just malleable like any other law or regulation.
And this is not just anyone running here. This is someone who practically came out of nowhere riding on the hopes of millions who fear that the core of what America is about has been compromised almost beyond redemption by the Bush Administration and the party he represents. To reverse on this issue as a matter of practicality and vote to lock in the illegal and unconstitutional actions of the Bush Administration is a breach of considerable magnitude.
I wish that, instead of using a Bible when the President takes the oath of office, that the left hand is placed on a copy of the Bill of Rights. I hope I live long enough to see someone in that office treat with the reverence it deserves. I really thought for awhile that it would be Barak Obama. Now I'm not so sure.
I agree with Naomi Klein as mentioned above, (I too heard her on Democracy Now this morning) - we need to hold his feet to the fire or forget it.
The Daily News noticed that the Obama website scrubbed its Iraq page over the weekend to remove references to the surge in Iraq not working:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/07/14/2008-07-14_barack_obama_purges_web_site_critique_of.html
Although maybe "scrubbed"is too harsh a verb. Perhaps they just unpublished it.
Wow, the way Obama has been acting, you would think he was a politician or something. Anyone who thought that Obama could live up to all that hype is just plain gullible.
#67 - Ditto, let's wait and see how things shake out.
manwhore@53: John McCain has studied positions that he feels are right
John McCain may feel in his gut that his positions are right, but he hasn't studied his own history or his own predictions.
In October 2002, when congress was debating the war authorization to invade Iraq, everything John McCain said was wrong. Everything Obama said has been proven right.
And just recently, John McCain said he is better at military planning than Obama. In deciding whether to bomb bomb bomb Iran, maybe, but apparently, not where it really counts, such as whether its actually a good idea or not.
link
@63 Buddy66
Yep, you got me on that; Freedom Summer was four years prior to my arrival in this life.
@manwhore
I was a C student also, and I am observant enough to see that it's not Bush's plan that worked; someone else created the plan, he vocalized it.
Believing hype is one thing. Believing what a candidate actually says is something else. Somehow I thought "change you can believe in" included principles and honesty.
also @manwhore
without discussions such as this I couldn't see if what I believe is right for the US or not.
@78 Will:
"More importantly than flaming the opposing candidate, I believe it's our duty as voters/citizens to question and hold accountable OUR candidate."
I think we should have been doing this for some time; they do work for us, not for their own situation.
Prepare for the collapse of the American Empire
Prepared and looking forward to it. The collapse of the American Empire would be the best thing that could happen to the human race.
then get ready for the N.A.U. flush the constitution and start spending those Ameros!
Rich people rule and they are scabs. buddy66 you are owned. If mclaim wants to squeeze your nuts in a vice you WILL say thank you. Can't tell about Obama until he gets office and takes action. Until then he's just another politician. There is no low the rich won't try - they may propose to peel the skin off his children while he watches if he doesn't play ball. This is still a popular tactic by US agencies in South America. Don't bother with the conspiracy bla bla to my post as I have 2nd hand knowledge by an eye witness of this tactic by a gov't agent. Your futures are being planned for a low wage consumer market - this doesn't mean the plans will work - remember prescott had to buy is freedom from the noose. The sickening part was he was allowed to and it worked out for him. However, they had to kill Kennedy with a bullet and Carter with the european federal reserve bankers rates. Whatever happens it's all pain and money. I have learned to be happy with or without both. Keep a PMA no matter what.
bush really isn't as dumb as you think. his persona maybe a defense tactic. check out you tube type in bush makes fun of himself. Then tell me he is stupid. He maybe just to coked up to eloquently convey his lies when he thinking of the truth at the same time.
Create your own Obama poster here: http://www.wecanbelievein.com/
Sinfest 2004-08-27 :.: Campaign 11
Sinfest 2004-07-27 :.: Campaign 9
Webster Tarpley's new book is about Obama the mith:
http://www.amazon.com/Obama-Postmodern-Making-Manchurian-Candidate/dp/0930852885/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216328735&sr=8-1
Amazon editorial review:
"Product Description:
Barack Obama is a deeply troubled personality, the megalomaniac front man for a postmodern coup by the intelligence agencies, using fake polls, mobs of swarming adolescents, super-rich contributors, and orchestrated media hysteria to short-circuit normal politics and seize power.
Obama comes from the orbit of the Ford Foundation, and has never won public office in a contested election. His guru and controller is Zbigniew Brzezinski, the deranged revanchist and Russia-hater who dominated the catastrophic Carter presidency 30 years ago. All indications are that Brzezinski recruited Obama at Columbia University a quarter century ago. Trilateral Commission co-founder Brzezinski wants a global showdown with Russia and China far more dangerous for the United States than the Bush-Cheney Iraq adventure.
Obama's economics are pure Skull & Bones/Chicago school austerity and sacrifice for American working families, all designed to bail out the bankrupt Wall Street elitist financiers who own Obama. Obama's lemming legions and Kool-Aid cult candidacy hearken back to Italy in 1919-1922, and raise the question of postmodern fascism in the United States today.
Obama is a recipe for a world tragedy. No American voter can afford to ignore the lessons contained in this book.
About the Author:
Webster Griffin Tarpley (Massachusetts 1946) is an intelligence expert and historian who has been studying and exposing covert operations for over thirty years. He is the author of George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography (1992) and 9/11 Synthetic Terror (2005). He has appeared on C-SPAN, CNN, Fox News, and many more.
Crumple-horned snorkack. I'm just sayin'.
More from Tarpley:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/02/392252.html
Any links to legitimate media? Or just shadowy cabals?
@#76 Antinous
you are right. his total number of vetos is low. that's becuase of the long standing republican majority that was just broken up. now that it isn't there he is vetoing, even when it gets overturned easily! http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN15294660
Thanks for censoring my reply to user Antinous yesterday?! I didn't think I wrote anything terribly rude or outrageous in my post; just trying to establishing facts documented by "legitimate" news sources.
I myself was a believer in the BS image created around Obama, but fortunately not anymore. It is extremely obvious that questions regarding Obama's credibility are in people's minds: his principles shift as often as the winds. Also, the credentials of the people he's involved with are of the utmost importance for this election, don't you agree?
Shame on you for censoring my reply post!
Ganda,
Everything that you wrote is completely intact. Nobody censored you.
Antinous:
I sent one post right after your post #97, with links to "legitimate" news sources. I got the confirmation page from the website the post was received. Somehow, it never appeared...
It happens. It actually happens to me quite a bit. If you had been unpublished, I would still have your comment in the system, but there's nothing there.
@99 Textbook concern troll:
" I used to be for him but now I don't know and here's a bunch of indistinct reasons why"
Not very subtle, either.
We should keep that around as a benchmark or archetype.
And a little more Tarpley:
http://www.deepjournal.com/p/7/a/en/1497.html
I can go on forever and ever.... just posting references with little nuggets here and there... Troll or not (by the way, I added my e-mail address to my account... so much for being an anonymous troll), I know I have doubts about him; I wish I had your well grounded certainty.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/us/politics/30obama.htm (pay attention to faculty names)
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2007/03/a_new_brain_for_barack_obama.cfm
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/09/12/358475.aspx
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080121/berman/single
Obama, the Goldman Sachs/ JP Morgan Chase candidate:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
A Manifesto For the Next President
By David Ignatius, Washington Post
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/13/AR2007031301504.html