Jesse Helms leaves the planet.
US Senator Jesse Helms died today. Here were his words in 1956, responding to criticism that a fictional black character in his newspaper column was racist:
To rob the Negro of his reputation of thinking through a problem in his own fashion is about the same as trying to pretend that he doesn't have a natural instinct for rhythm and for singing and dancing.Jesse Helms quotes on life and politics [AP]
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Every copper coin has two faces; time for ice cream!
Darn.
As the old joke goes: My mother told me to only speak good of the dead.
Jesse Helms is dead. Good.
(86 years was about 85 years too long.)
yay! i cant wait til they bury that ccksckr* ( self disemvowelled) so i can dance on his grave! best news of the day! err, my condolences to the family...
Hey Jesse - So long screwy, see ya in Saint Louie.
(I'd spew some more disdain, but the guy's dead, he can't hurt us any more).
rot in hell, you bigoted bastard!
It looks as though the question of the immortal MC Hawking has finally been answered.http://www.mchawking.com/mp3_files/JesseHelms.mp3
Between "Rot in Hell, you bigoted bastard" and "So long screwy, see ya in Saint Louie," I don't know that there's anything left for me to add. It's pretty much all been said.
In a few years someone should dig up his bones and routinely desecrate them in the initiation rite of a hedonistic secret society.
How about "Good for nuthin', bad in bed/Nobody likes you and you're better off dead, goodbye!"
As a many decades long resident of the Tarheel state I can say that our veil of evil, bilious, racist, backwards, shame was peeled back ever so slightly today. what does it say about Helms that Liddy Dole is a step up.
Good for us.
Yes, the Worldwide Micturation Tour will have a new stop as soon as his grave is filled in.
The last of the unrepentant white old boy crackers
is dead.
He alone killed the once great National Endowment
for The Arts.
I hope Saint Peter (he thought would greet him)
is a formerly lynched innocent.
How can any Republican praise "his tenacity"
when he called The University of North Carolina
"The University of Negroes and Coloreds".
Shame on Bob Dole for saying incredibly, Jesse
was not a racist cause he had blacks working
for him". Let's not rewrite history this soon!
his place in history is assured
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/oliphant/vc007249.jpg
This guardian obit is quite a read:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/04/usa
While I share the opposite ideas and feelings about this person as well, I do not feel there is any particular reason to post of his passing. While it is your right as a contributor/editor to post said item it is my right as a reader/poster to voice my dissent. As a "Directory of Wonderful Things" I do not think that this posting will do anything but create a forum for hateful messages. I urge you in the recent light of other unpleasantness to consider the direction and effect of posts on a site that I believe is quite wonderful and enjoy on a regular basis. This did nothing but bring me sadness at what I feel is a post in fairly bad taste. Let us not respond to hate with hate.
Repubs do not have a monopoly on bigotry.
Evidence Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV) who was a member of the KKK and filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- personally filibustering the bill for 14 hours
recognize evil, teach others, prevent it. Hate? He earned it. Don't forget the bastard, or his spawn will finish the job he started.
Jesse Helms, unlike nearly everyone else in politics, was unrepentantly racist to the day he died. Even Strom Thurmond tried to reform, but not Helms.
His brokering of the deal that got anti-smoking PSAs off American television cost untold hundreds of thousands of lives due to smoking-related illness.
The list goes on and on and on. I can't think of a more evil person still alive. Even Robert Mugabe isn't responsible for as many deaths and as much misery as Helms.
Times like this I wish I believed in Hell so that guys like him could burn in it.
He was elected, over and over. You may wish that didn't happen, but to rejoice over the death of anyone makes me a little bit worried.
It's a shame that fate dictated that he died on the 4th of July (although just barely, at 1:15 am).
It must have been interesting to have had a 19th century world view while living in the 20th century.
People have the right to rejoice that someone who did so much evil cannot any more. This "person" or his death by themselves mean nothing.
Isn't he going to be pissed when he learns that God really does look like Morgan Freeman...
I guess Mc Hawking got his wish "Why Won't Jesse Helms Just Hurry Up and Die?" him being republican isn't really an issue to me, he made enough of a stink on his own irregardless of political affiliation. Its gonna be raining "Jesse Helms" a great american stories for a while, but I am not going to shed any tears personally.
yy! cnt wt tl thy bry tht ccksckr* ( slf dsmvwlld) s cn dnc n hs grv!
Ds ths mt th stndrd f pltcl dscrs hr?
s t cl fr m t sy - n thr ths thrd r nthr n - smthng lk " cn't wt ntl thy bry bm - tht ccksckr - s cn dnc n hs grv" ?
"political discourse" applies to those that can do something.
TankDoc - the tobacco lobby got him reelected over and over. And it's not like there aren't plenty of racists in North Carolina (and every state, really). They just aren't usually in the Senate.
DBarak, I don't think it's a shame at all. I think it's fitting that another great day for our nation took place on July 4!
Jesse Helms was a Democrat in '56
Bill Hicks was a big fan of Helms as well.
http://poetv.com/video.php?vid=38867
Some NSFW vocabulary there.
Anyone know if Hicks guessed right about any of the details around his death? Any baby shoes in the closet?
I don't hate the man or want to dance on his grave or wish he'd shuffled off his mortal coil any sooner. Why sink to his level? An example:
Via Wikipedia
"Soon after the Senate vote on the Confederate flag insignia, Sen. Jesse Helms (R.-N.C.) ran into Mosely-Braun in a Capitol elevator. Helms turned to his friend, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R.-Utah), and said, "Watch me make her cry. I'm going to make her cry. I'm going to sing 'Dixie' until she cries." He then proceeded to sing the song about "the good life" during slavery to Mosely-Braun"
...
The man's legacy is that of a cruelty and vituperate statements. I'd like to do better. MUCH better.
Yay... Racist people really make me sick.
The bastard...
ls, #24 - TJC:
" cn't wt ntl thy bry bm - tht ccksckr - s cn dnc n hs grv?"
f bm ws htfl, rcst, nd vl, thn ys. Bt dn't s t n hm.
The late Molly Ivins once described Helms as "a vicious old hate sow."
The world could do with more like her, and fewer like him.
Defiant1, that was all pre-civil rights movement. The current Democratic party platform is in the opposite direction of what it was-- both modern parties are almost completely distinct from their previous incarnations. Comparisons are nonsensical and show a poor understanding of their evolution, and U.S. politics in general.
And Sen. Robert Byrd, for what it's worth, apologized for having once opposed civil rights a long time ago-- he's said it was a product of growing up in the South that he carried through his youth, and that it was wrong. For many years he's been a model Senator; he recently endorsed and given a speech in support of Sen. Barack Obama for the presidency.
If only Helms had lived long enough to watch the US elect our first black President.
Oh well, having corpse worms as company should make him feel right at home, with all the time he spent with tobacco lobbyists.
Apologizing may not be enough, but it's way better than NOT apologizing, and in fact being proud of your racism, as Helms was.
His career was an insult to the first line of the Declaration of Independance, and it is fitting this day was his last. From the perspective of those who the man devoted his life to stifling, this could well be wonderful news. He will be missed, but not by everyone. Certainly not by me.
You know, like the man or not, it's not right to celebrate his death.
Celebrating the end of his government career is understandable, celebrating when he ceased having hateful words publicized by mass media is understandable. Celebrating that he died and his family must now mourn for that... mks y n sshl.
Dn't b n sshl.
Think about it for a moment, eh? He may have said pretty terrible things about certain groups of people, but somehow I doubt you'd be able to explain why saying you're -glad somebody is dead- is any less hateful.
Thnk bt t fr mmnt, h? H my hv sd prtty trrbl thngs bt crtn grps f ppl, bt smhw dbt y'd b bl t xpln why syng y'r -gld smbdy s dd- s ny lss htfl.
I just went looking for an old "This Modern World" cartoon that illustrated perfectly just how much of an unspeakably vile excuse for a human being he was, but it's not archived there for obvious reasons.
The dialogue quoted verbatim in said cartoon is linked below, however, and don't say you weren't warned:
http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=UVMTODAY;r0oOQw;19951013113720-0400
Won't miss you in the slightest, Jesse. I sure wish you'd hung around just long enough to watch Barack take the oath of office and then coughed up your bowels and croaked, though.
I think throughout history, there are some humans whose deaths should be celebrated. They are cancers on the human tree, sucking the blood of the sufferers, and YES, there should be joy when they are incised from the human body. If that makes me an asshole, don't care, I will dance and dance. Good riddance.
Do not speak ill of the dead by presenting 50 year old quotes. He had probably changed much since he made that quote. Just look at all the good he did!
There was... Hmm. Hold on... let me think. I'm drawing a blank.
Ding-dong the dick is dead!
I have to admit, when I read the headline yesterday I had a fluttery joyful moment. I too lived many years in NC; I was often enraged with his actions and frustrated by his followers.
But let's not confound the man with what he represented. The man is dead. We could celebrate his death and drag his corpse through the streets in some cathartic ritual and all feel better about ourselves for a day, but it obscures the issue - that Jesse-Helmsism is not dead. He embodied racism, big tobacco, xenophobia, gun-love, bigotry, and so on, and now that body is dead. Unfortunately only that crumpled old body.
I'm not arguing that he by simple virtue of being dead deserves some respect. Absolutely not. I can't think of any good reason to not speak ill of the dead (his widow? collaborator.), except that it paves the way for people like AIRPILLO to miss the point entirely and say "Shame...." and compare you to Helms.
I could go on. in short, hold off on the parade, he's not dead enough. maybe a symbolic dancing-on-his-grave is called for? something constructive, like donating to some minority rights groups in memory of the happy day we all started to undo his legacy?
too little,
too late.
Check the Guardian bio.
Mr.Helms was a media creation....
i was going to comment but wow, that Guardian article really does say it all. here's the link again for good measure:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/04/usa
Sad little man. :(
Bitter is the fruit where no love grows.
http://mchawking.com/mp3_files/JesseHelms.mp3
Being honest about the terrible things he did and said is a necessary corrective to the soothing obits in the MSM, but mocking the death of a human being, no matter how poorly they lived, lowers you.
Jesse Helms made no attempt to rise above his darker impulses. That was his mistake. It doesn't have to be yours as well.
Sorry for the Anon; I don't want to set up an account right now.
Just wanted to point out that Bozo the Clown died on the same day.
Coincidence? I think not.
The Associated Press - 5 Jul 95
NEW YORK (AP) -- Sen. Jesse Helms says the government should spend less money on people with AIDS because they got sick as a result of "deliberate, disgusting, revolting conduct," The New York Times reported Wednesday.
Helms, who has often spoken of his disgust for homosexuals, spoke to the Times as the Senate considers whether to renew a federal program for the care and treatment of AIDS patients.
"We've got to have some common sense about a disease transmitted by people deliberately engaging in unnatural acts," Helms told the Times.
http://www.aegis.com/news/ap/1995/AP950702.html
--and--
When he made an appearance on CNN’s Larry King Live in Sept. 1995, a caller praised him “for everything you’ve done to help keep down the niggers.”
Helms looked in the camera and replied, “Well thank you, I think.”
http://www.blackpressusa.com/news/Article.asp?SID=3&Title=National+News&NewsID=4342
---
Respect in life or death needs to be earned. This man wasn't deserving of anyone's respect.
GenericVox, I think I owe you an apology. When I got to your comment, I invoked the rule against mentioning presidential candidates if the main entry doesn't mention one; but I can't see how to do it to Axiomista's comment without doing violence to a topic-relevant observation.
Defiant1 @17, the Dixiecrats were still in the party, though not for long; and Byrd has long since repented of his earlier racism. Jesse Helms never repented for a minute.
Airpillo @37, some of us have been waiting a long time for this. Show me you're still reading this thread and I'll be glad to explain why rejoicing that Helms is dead is far less hateful than the appalling words and contemptible actions that were his legacy.
Virgil, I have many times marked the deaths of people whose lives and works were very much opposed to principles I value; and I know I shall do so again. When I do, I want the basic human respect I afford them to mean something, and not just be the automatic minimally polite sentiment. Therefore, I refuse to be pious and polite about the death of Jesse Helms.
Th cmmnts r trly ntrstng cmmntry n twnty-frst cntry “thght.” D ny f y rlz tht y r rcsts? Y’r nt? D y spprt ffrmtv ctn? rst my cs.
Anticommie, welcome to the BB threads, and congratulations on your Very First Post.
I just want to second TNH's sentiments regarding Virgil's comments and add: we who are in a position to draw such distinctions should not confuse one's "darker impulses" with one's essential being. Mr. Helms was a cursed blight on the American people and I'm glad that he is dead.
Now, who wants some ice cream?
thght lbrls wr ll sppsd t b flld wth lv nd cmpssn.
Lts s "rt n hll".
"yy! cnt wt tl thy bry tht ccksckr* ( slf dsmvwlld) s cn dnc n hs grv! bst nws f th dy!"
"n fw yrs smn shld dg p hs bns nd rtnly dscrt thm n th nttn rt f hdnstc scrt scty."
cld g n bt....wll rd thm fr yrslf. Wht ht flld rnt vr smns dth. Y lftst wns shld lk n th mrrr hlf s mch s y pnt fngrs.
nd nthr thng. Sm f yr dmn-crt hrs hv sd sm qlly dspcbl thngs, r wrs, nd yt r gnrd. Sn. Byrd ws "grnd pbh" r sm sch n th KKK fr chrsks! Bt thts jst pchy kn wth y -hls. LK N TH MRRR!
gss y dn't blv n frdm f spch thr. Scrwng wth my pst lk tht. Bnch f wss! Cnt tk crtcsm cn y.
hey, astroknutt, if you don't like it go play in your own sandbox. how dare you call me 'liberal'! i am not that generous. jesse helms was a blight on society. period. i can think of nothing good that was done by him whilst breathing the air that could have been used positively by lizards and snakes. now go give cheney (dick) a big smootch, hop into your Hummer, and go taunt ghetto children with the promise of $10 a gallon gas. or join the natl. guard and head to iraq. the right wing of this country has had power for the last 7 yr.s and look at all the great things u have done. oh, wait. u haven't done 1 damn good thing.
My pnt ws tht f th mn hd D n frnt f hs nm nstd f n R y lfts wld b cryng rvr. Dmn-crts gt pss n ll th nsty stff thy sy. dnt rlly knw ddly sqt bt Sn Hlms. Dnt rlly cr.....h s DD. Jst cmmntng n th ht flld rnts. Srry y cnt tk t....LK N TH MRRR
He was a truly wretched human being and unfortunately one with a great deal of influence. We are all better off without his regressive attitudes and hate. I wish I could say this makes a big difference for America, but there will naturally be someone along soon to try to fill his shoes.
On another topic, where to the vowels go? You're recycling them and not just dumping them somewhere, right?
@58 (rubbing hands together)
OK. I'll bite. Pick a Democrat and compare him point for point with the worst you can think of about Helms.
This will be good...
The vowels were in there when posted. They were stolen by an unknown party. Just to mess with me I am sure. N cnsrvtv vw pnt llwd gss.
@60 I think you miss my point. lthgh cld ply yr gm.....nd t lst hng n thr fr bt. Th pnt ws bt th ht flld rnts. Nt dfns f Hlms. Wnt t cmpr nsty rmrks btwn Dmn-crts nd Rpblcns? Y wll gt yr btt kckd! Y gys jst lk t gnr t f ts frm Dm.
"thght lbrls wr ll sppsd t b flld wth lv nd cmpssn."
Why are love & compassion strictly liberal sentiments... is that to say that conservatives are the exact opposite? Please explain.
"Wht ht flld rnt vr smns dth."
I don't think many people shed tears when Hitler died. Unless we count tears of joy.
"Y lftst wns shld lk n th mrrr hlf s mch s y pnt fngrs."
Wait, what? Did I call *you* a liberal?
:)
@61
It's called Disemvoweling
and yu earned it.
how perfect: jesse helms dies, america throws a big party.
To all: You wont play nice so I am taking my toys and going home. Raspberries to you all. Bunch of weenies.
@61 How does one disemvowel? Not very nice. I hate, that I love, BoingBoing. Always has the most interesting stuff run by people who hate my guts....LOL
@63 How many people did Helms mass murder? Get a bit of perspective.
C you guys on another post where I wont wimp out so quickly. I have to go mow the yard now.
I don't hate Jesse Helms. I don't hate man eating tigers but I cheer when they are both dead.
Todd Rundgren, musician and producer extraordinaire ("Hello, It's Me" "I Saw The Light" "Bang On The Drum All Day") wrote a song about Jesse... (although other names were later added to the list) http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Jesse-lyrics-Todd-Rundgren/E5F7F8D121E8BE3B48256A190031AB93
@66
@63 How many people did Helms mass murder? Get a bit of perspective.
TAGETODM = There Are Greater Evils so This One Doesn't Matter
Drink 'em if you got 'em.
@66 C you guys on another post
Not if I see you first.
"I came up between the two world wars during the Depression. All the people around me emphasized working and savings and personal responsibility. They spelled out in one way or another the uniqueness of America. This has largely been lost. Nobody would have thought of turning to the government to solve all our problems." — 1984 interview.
How many here have echoed that sentiment? No, Helms wasn't the first or last to make it, and he wasn't the first (or will be the last) to say all of the ignorant things he said either.
It's easy to piss on the man's grave. It's harder to think about all his quotes on the AP page, because it will lead you to the conclusion that anyone can get very wrong-headed trying to hold on to his idea of 'right'.
"So long screwy, see ya in Saint Louie." is actually quite poetically beautiful.
#66 - For a conservative you're playing the victim rather well. Please engage in reasonable debate and stop with the straw men.
and no, i don't support affirmative action per se. Now that the likes of Helms are out of power it is less necessary.
WCC 71: It's easy to piss on the man's grave.
Well, not yet it isn't. But I certainly hope circumstances justify your optimism, because I would love to do just that.
My point was that if the man had a D in front of his name instead of an R you lefties would be crying a river.
The concept that "if you're against the thing I support, you must be for the thing I despise" isn't just simple-minded, it's one of the many things which makes outsiders such as myself despair over the state of American politics. Commenters here who criticise Helms could be anarchists, libertarians, Republicans, Maoists or none of the above but a certain type of American would label them as "leftists" simply for having a contrary opinion.
@Versh - I believe the phrase was coined by the one and only Bugs Bunny.
Now THERE was a great American.
but a certain type of American would label them as "leftists" simply for having a contrary opinion.
They learned that from Jesse.
OK I am still here lurking around. Its too hot to mow the lawn.
@73 "#66 - For a conservative you're playing the victim rather well. Please engage in reasonable debate and stop with the straw men."
If you can translate my "disemvoweled" posts you will see that they are far less offensive that the posts that I was actually commenting on. A bit of suppression of dissenting opinion going on? What "straw men" are you referring to? My point was, and is, valid. There are some hate filled rants here. The man is dead. Made some stupid comments but he was no Hitler...sheesh! Read similar stuff when Reagan died too.
@75 OK valid point. I am making assumptions. Probably correct assumptions, but assumptions nonetheless. I concede your point. stll thnk m dlng wth bnch f "lftys" bt cld b wrng. NT!
OK, moderator, or anyone else, can you tell me why my post was so screwed up?
@79.
See #64. Your question has been answered.
@79 seems you and I are in the same boat. Cnsrvtv pnn s ll-tlrtd hr.
sspct ths wh dsps Hlms wld mv f vr blck fmly mvd n nxt dr.
@81, no, just rampant wankery.
Ooh, this thread is bringing in all sorts of sock puppets!
"I suspect those who despise Helms would move if ever a black family moved in next door".
One of the stupidest statements I've ever read here. I wouldn't move if a black family moved in next door, but I'd be out in heartbeat if a hateful bigot moved in next door.
@81 Conservative opinion is ill-tolerated here.
A cursory scan of Boing Boing will find many well favored opinions about conservation. Or isn't that a Conservative opinion?
@83 What does "wankery" mean?
@84 Whats a "sock puppet"?
LOL.....I said I would leave you guys in peace so I guess I will now. Gotta go troll somewhere else. ;o)
I shall return! Beware!
Been real. Been fun. But...well.
TNH;
I'm not sure what you're defending yourself against. He was a hate-filled person, and a lot of the commenters are pointing out exactly how, which is as it should be; my comments were directed toward some of the more gleefully vindictive comments, such as rot in hell, c*cks*kr, etc.
Your implication that I'm responding because you haven't printed a "pious or polite" obit mischaracterizes what I said completely.
I'm not sure what the rhetorical term is for dramatically rejecting a point that wasn't actually made, but whatever it is, you've just done it.
@ #82
"I suspect those who despise Helms would move if ever a black family moved in next door"
Surely this is a typo that should read "those who defend Helms"?
Here's my two cents worth:
My mother once said, "Though I suppose I shouldn't speak ill of the dead." Her sister replied, "Why, do they get nicer after they're gone?"
Around the time Helms helped destroy the National Endowment for The Arts, a friend sent me a bumper sticker that read, "Helms Happens, but is it art?" Not only did many people honk their support, but on at least one occasion someone got out of their car to personally say how much they loved that sticker.
He will be missed by no one I know.
Conservative opinion is ill-tolerated here.
No, it isn't. Hate filled rants and ad hominem attacks against other commenters and the hosts are ill tolerated here.
"Y lftst wns shld lk n th mrrr hlf s mch s y pnt fngrs."
I think that was 'leftist wankers' at one time, and that sir, is pure ad hominem / ad nauseum namecalling. We're done with it here - go to redstate to blow off that steam.
If you have a salient point (as many of you later, intact, comments do) then we can have a discussion. From your early comments it appears you are just here to attack people with whom you disagree. From your later comments you just want to annoy us. The latter is fine, the former is not acceptable per site policies.
You are also acting like a victim though, which I find strange for a self-identified conservative.
I'm not sure what the rhetorical term is for dramatically rejecting a point that wasn't actually made
I'm partial to strawman.
You can be annoyed by her response or you can apprectiate that maybe your own point was not made nearly as clearly as you think the first time around.
Personally, I can see where she saw that, but I appreciate it isn't ~exactly~ *precisely* what you meant.
Question is, is it her responsibility to fill in the details that your initial writing apparently lacked (and that gave it ambiguous meaning)? Or is it your responsibility your be more clear?
That call is yours.
First line of above was a quote from #88 - Virgil.
Oops. Mai Bad.
Re 48:
Leave Bozo out of this, JH didn't have the class to wipe Bozo's arse!
Unfortunately, racism did not die with Jesse Helms. It is alive and kicking everywhere. Helms was not an aberration; his views are shared by many people these days. And it isn’t just the older generation that spews hatred, which many people mistakenly believe. There are plenty of young people who are more than willing to carry that torch. Last night, my mother, sister, and I were walking back to my car after watching a July 4th fireworks show. Two young men whom we walked by wished us a Happy Fourth and then proceeded to make disparaging remarks about our nationality (we’re Asian Indian) and my mother's accent. What a display of patriotism! It made me angry, but mostly it depressed me. I could’ve turned around and yelled out racial epithets, but I’d like to think I’m better than that.
From what I’ve read over the years, Helms was an insufferable human being, but can I rejoice over his death? Not really, because it makes me sad to think he carried to his grave all that bigotry in his stony heart. What a tragedy it is that he didn’t reform before his death!
MDHatter:
Fair enough.
kp syng m lvng bt ths s t mch fn.
@91 Th qt y ct wsn't n f mn. f y g bck nd cn trnslt MY cmmnts y fll fnd thr wr n "d hmnm" ttcks. ws mrly pntng t th htflnss f prvs psts. nd ws "dsmvwld" (xcs spllng) fr n vld rsn tht cn fnd. thr thn my pnn dsgrd wth th prvlng pnn.
@86 hv bn rdng Bng Bng fr sm tm nd fnd dstnct lck f cnsrvtv pnn. Bth n th blg tslf nd n th psts. Nt prblm thr bt thght mght dd dffrnt prspctv.
f my rgnl pnt hd smply bn cknwldgd s bng vld wldn't stll b hr lrkng rnd. Tht pnt bng.....thr s grt dl f htfl nsty rntng gng n hr t th xpns f mn wh s dd. H sd sm stpd stff bt wsn't Htlr nd ds nt dsrv ths knd f trtmnt. cn't mgn wht wll hppn whn Bsh ds. Ths wll sm tm by cmprsn.
Shsh! Jst grnt m my pnt nd wll g n bt my bsnss.
Myb.
f xprnc srvs wll vntlly hv t gv p nd lv. Dn't DR sy nythng cntrry t lfty dlgy r rsk th wrth f cntlss lftys.
LL ;)
ts s sy t twk y gys.
If you expect your opinions and character to be beyond criticism after your death then by all means refrain from making negative comments about the recently departed Helms. The rest of us who don't anticipate being 'safe' after we stop breathing are going to let the old bastard have it.
@97:
If my original point had simply been acknowledged as being valid I wouldn't still be here lurking around.
That will serve as a handy definition of Troll:
"I'm only here for the disagreements"
@99 I grant you that point.
Ouch! LOL...how do you spell too shay?
BTW the disagreements are the most entertaining part of all this.
Don't DARE say anything contrary to lefty ideology or risk the wrath of countless leftys.
You're making that inane equation again.
In terms of UK politics, Helms' naked bigotry would put him so far to the right of the Conservative Party his only political refuge would be in one of the minority far right parties with the neo-Nazis and other hate-mongers. The fact that he had a home in the Republican Party and was consistently returned to power says a lot about the extreme nature of US politics.
If you want some comment from a man who's no "leftie", how about Atlantic columnist Andrew Sullivan, whose book The Conservative Soul: How We Lost It, How To Get It Back is an argument against the far right extremism of Helms and others:
"I'm pretty firm about always respecting the dead. But since he spent his life doing all he could to make my gay brothers and sisters marginalized, hated and dead, it is hard to feel what a Christian should. And since he was personally responsible for removing my chance to become an American, and his legacy of hatred toward those struggling with HIV is still alive, forgive me for finding forgiveness hard. But may he rest in the peace he so wanted to deny so many others - because they were different from him."
Here's my philosophy, better than I could ever put it:
POLONIUS: My lord, I will use them according to their desert.
HAMLET: God's bodikin, man, much better. Use every man after his desert, and who shall 'scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity: the less they deserve, the more merit is in your bounty.
@101 you are equating bigotry and hatred with the "right wing"....."republicans" etc. Its simply not the case. I can find countless racists and bigots on the "left" but they are excused. Where there is ANY hint of racism by republicans or conservatives is instantly under the media microscope. Look at the democrat primary in the USA to see rampant racism and sexism blatantly displayed for all with eyes to see.
g bck t my rgnl pnt. Thr s htrd nd vcsnss pnly n dsply rght hr! m NT xcsng Sn. Hlms. m smply pntng t th htrd nd bgtry n ths thrd. nd fr tht m "dsmvwlld" LL lv t.
Xopher 74 - seriously? I was referring to what people here are doing in a metaphorical sense. Making the effort to enact that much hate towards those who think and do the opposite of your ideals is what creates men like Helms. As in the plural. After all, he didn't do it all alone.
And hateful rants are just fine as long as it's part of our two minutes hate.
the problem is not Mr. Helms. The problem is with all the people who supported him.
@103 I can find countless racists and bigots on the "left" but they are excused.
Thanks you for the offer of your expertise. I invite you for a second time to expose racists on the Left. I suggest you begin by comparing racists on the Left to those GOP members who exploited bias and prejudice to hold political sway in the South after the Civil Rights Act as Lyndon Johnson accurately predicted they would do as he signed it into law.
That should give you a start, but with your claimed extensive knowledge of racist Democrats I'm sure you will have no trouble illustrating your claims at length.
Its sooooo easy to tweak you guys.
The moderator seems to have your number too.
I can find countless racists and bigots on the "left" but they are excused.
citation please.
I didn't much care for the guy, but I'm not
ready to celebrate his death.
Wow, Astroknott... wow.
"If my original point had simply been acknowledged as being valid I wouldn't still be here lurking around."
Your point was acknowledged. Other posters responded to it and expressed their disagreement. It's one thing to disagree with someone, and it's another to be an asshat about it. "It's not what you say, but the way you say it."
"If experience serves I will eventually have to give up and leave. Don't DARE say anything contrary to lefty ideology or risk the wrath of countless leftys."
Here we go again with the childish name calling, which you previously accused others of doing. Pot & kettle comparison? Why yes.
Let's pare it down: You stand in defense of someone who didn't exactly have an outstanding reputation. Sure, snide comments were made about Helms' death, but given what he represented, I don't find it particularly unwarranted.
asstroknutt, do you tear the wings off flies to get your kicks? or are you more the flaming poop on the doorstep kinda guy? just curious. i gotta tell ya, 1. i aint no lefty, if anything i'm a centrist. 2. i damn sure aint no democrat, though i've been forced to vote gor a few in my day, i've also been forced to vote for a republicrat or 2. mostly i try, through diligent research, to figger out who the best candidate for the job might be. and 3. i hold no real hatred in my heart for anyone, be it jesse, adolph, pol pot, reagan, or even you for that matter. however, when you say all that jesse helms ever did was say a few stupid things, well, i goota stop you right there. i dislike him for his ACTIONS. he did everything in his power to make life miserable for anyone who happenned to have the misfortune of being born with a different ideology or skinn color of religious affiliation than he. he was a douche, and i'll be forever happy he is DEAD!
@111 My point is still being ignored.
I am NOT standing in defense of Sen. Helms. Don't know how many different ways to say what has already been said. Thr r htfl nd vcs rmrks n ths thrd. Tht ws, nd s, my pnt. Chldsh nm cllng? s "lfty" nm cllng? f s thn rpnt. Wht wld y lk t b clld? hv bn clld bnch f nsty stff n ths thrd. Dn't cr t lk thrgh t gn t pnt t ll t.
"It's not what you say, but the way you say it."
Sorry if I am not diplomatic enough.
@107 "I suggest you begin by comparing racists on the Left to those GOP members who exploited bias and prejudice to hold political sway in the South after the Civil Rights Act as Lyndon Johnson accurately predicted they would do as he signed it into law."
f y lk t th rcrd t ws dmcrts tht wr th bggst ppstn t th cvl rghts ct. n fct l Grs dddy ws n f th bggst bstcls stndng n th wy f pssg. Rpblcns wr lrgly n spprt f t. cn lk p th dtls f y rlly wnt. dbt y rlly cr fr th fcts thgh.
@109 ct Sn. Byrd f wst Vrgn fr strtrs. H ws "grnd pbh" r sm sch fr th KKK. gss thts K thgh.....h's dmcrt. cn gt lts mr bt......whts th pnt. Y hv t n yr hd tht rpblcns r rcst bgts nd dmcrts r wndrfl crng ngls frm hvn. S dbt tht cn swy y rgrdlss f th fcts. m hrd cr cnsrvtv t th bn. f y wnt t knw wht cnsrvtvs r RLLY ll bt, jst sk m nd cn nlghtn y. Rcsm, bgtry nd sxsm, rn't prt f cnsrvtv dlgy.
@108 Hh? knw ws smmrly nd wrngly dsm-vwld (hwvr y spll t). S gss tht mns thy hv my nmbr. Yt th psts ws cmmntng n wr xtrmly ffnsv. Hnc my rgnl psts t pnt tht t. Hw s tht ffnsv? gss pntng t th trth s bt mch fr sm flks.
stnd by my cmmnt. "ts s sy t twk y gys" LL
Hit me with your best shot. I will hit back, assuming I don't fall asleep first.
@112 N dn't tr wngs ff f fls r pt flmng pp n drstps. gt my kcks frm rrttng ppl lk y.
Y pt Rgn, dlf, nd Pl-Pt n th sm lg? Hw mny ppl dd Rgn hv mrdrd? Ths s th stff tht mks m crzy. Gt grp! Rgn ws snt! N mss mrdrs ndr th Rgn prsdncy. nly nc lvly tx cts. gss tht mks hm Htlr. Lttng s kp mr f r wn mny, h! th hrrr! Sv s frm tx cts!
W hvn't hd dcnt ldr snc Rgn. nd thr dsn't ppr t b nyn n th hrzn wh cn fll hs shs. W r scrwd fr th nxt fr yrs rgrdlss f wh s lctd. f ts McCn t lst y wll hv smn t blm t n whn vrythng flls prt. nd t S gng t fll prt! Wrt ths dwn. W r n dp hrs dk fr sm tm t cm. McCn hvrs lk n F1 trnd. bm hvrs lk n F4. Th ldrshp f bth prts qlly hvrs lk n F4. nd r ppl r blnd nd/r hlplss t wht s gng n. Gd hlp s!
What's with this 'Lefty' business? Is that supposed to be some kind of insult? Hell, I was a communist for thirty years; you should have heard some of the shit they called me!
I also find it repulsive when people cheer for another's death. It seems inordinate to hold such hatred for someone who isn't even in the world anymore.
Even Hitler, monstrous as he was, is regarded with a sort of clinical iciness nowadays. Nobody sits around banging their fist on the desk and yelling about what a bastard he was. It's irrational.
Astroknot - meh. Byrd apologized and then worked to make his wrongs right before he retired. One data point does not prove a trend, especially since that one data point disproves your argument (Unless you don't know about the second half of Byrd's career??)
and FYI - your style is what is unappreciated, not your politcs. "Hit me with your best shot"?
As the great philopher P. Benetar once said: "FIRE AWAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!!!"
Okay, RJ, life is precious. Maybe Hitler wasn't all bad.
@113;
If you look at the record it was democrats that were the biggest opposition to the civil rights act.
Utter bullshit. The passing of the Civil Rights Act allowed the GOP to capture political control of the South by using racial scare tactics. They called this The Southern Strategy. It was cynical, evil and totally effective. See any history text for details.
As detailed above @50, those Democrats in the South who opposed the Civil Rights Act immediately switched sides to the GOP, solidifying the takeover.
BTW, it's 'Democrats' if you're talking about our party and 'democrats' if you're talking about our form of government.
And for the record, 'Republican' doesn't mean anything at all any more.
@117 If you say so. Apologies for my "style". I could continue this but its bedtime. I don't feel up to looking up the details to prove you wrong. I am sleepy. I will see you guys on another thread I am sure. Thr y cn cntn yr......d-hmnm ttcks, rnts, whtvr. LL Srry f hv ffndd. lthgh thnk m th n d plgs. nt ll.
@119 Actually this is a "democratic republic" if you want to get technical. Sorry for the failure to capitalize where necessary. I assumed people could figure out what I was referring to. Also if you want to continue with technicalities its the Democrat party, not the Democratic party. Both parties are democratic parties. For some reason that always hacks off Democrats. So I love to point it out. ;o)
I agree that "Republican" doesn't mean anything any more. They have lost their way. I could advise them but they have decided to dump all over their base. They seem intent on becoming Democrats......or maybe Republicrats. Disgusting! (Note: proper capitalization this time.) Should I run spell check too?
And are you saying that Al Gores daddy switched sides and became a Republican? Thats news to me. Anyway, I'm done. nite.
Even Hitler, monstrous as he was, is regarded with a sort of clinical iciness nowadays.
O, RLY?
Astro - I'm sorry... that I won't do your research for you. Fail, and I hope you're less cranky after a good nights sleep. You're clearly no fool, but it's not so clear you are arguing in good faith.
@RossInDetroit, I'm just as anxious as you are to read a sensible response to your questions from Astroknott, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe you should quit feeding that troll. I only say because one of the most frustrating things for me to read in a BoingBoing comment thread is a well-reasoned question with point-by-point requirements for a response that will make an argument make sense, only to have the troll who should be responding to the well-reasoned question either answer someone else's question or say "ooh I gotta go beddy-bye" or "oh I gotta go have dinner." Drives me nuts. And yeah, just to be clear, Astroknott, I'm calling you a troll.
On the Helms topic, big sigh of relief that we don't have to worry about that particular national embarrassment anymore.
Astroknott sez: "I get my kicks from irritating people like you".
Do I even have to say how sad a life you must have. You get your kicks by irritating people? Try and get a life dude. You have my sympathy.
Awww Jake, But I LIKE PIE!!!!! ;)
Man, we really need to get the three billy goats gruff in here to take care of this troll infestation!
MD, I'm a cake man myself. ;)
@124 It was previously established that I am a "troll". If you read enough posts that is. That was one of the many lovely names I was called. Thats OK, it was one of my nicknames in high school. Along with Hobbit, and Keebler, and some I dare not mention here.
And I really do gotta go beddy by. I am falling on my face. This has been a long day and the Lunesta is kicking in big time. If I stay up my post may become rather "interesting". LOL
If this thread is still active in the morning I shall attempt to answer said questions. If not then I will joust with you further on another post.
Have a nice sleep under the bridge, Mr. Troll.
I LIKE TURTLES!!! but i am not so crazy 'bout asstrobutt. he jus loves to drop labels on folk which he somehow warpedly b'lieves makes him look like something other than a troll. it don't! does it irritate me? meh. it more makes me pity the ignorance. yeah, reagan. whatta winner he was. tax cut us into the largest deficit up to that time. ( until geo. 1st made it even bigger) and got the nation hooked on crack cocaine! what a great admin. w/ heros like col. north to guide the way for him and take the (limited) fall for exporting weopons/importing drugs. yay. well, sleepy tight. and if the bedbugs give a lil nibble, so be it. again, to reiterate, i do not hate anyone, but i will pee on mr. helms grave! just like i did on mr. reagan's, and mr. nixon's!
Has any provision been made to ship the urine of those that wish to make an appropriate graveside gesture? Since many are too busy to travel there really should be some kind of organized service to collect the pee and get it there. I have several liters immediately available( at great sacrifice I might add since I was forced to drink domestic beer due to the indecency of wasting good imported product for such a person). Please advise soonest.
wait a sec, 'hobbitt' and keebler'? i think im detecting a bit of the napolian complex!
Takuan, I hear there is a tanker truck making the rounds as we speak. (Bummer about the domestic beer).
takuan, for you, on my next trip to n.c. i will gladly tranport some 'golden baptism juice' to mingle with we other 'true believers' on the gravestone of mr. helms. no charge.
I've been eating asparagus lately. I have a tank of warm lemonade waiting for disposal. ;)
Astroknott, you came in here calling people "Demon-crats," and before retiring for the night made it clear that your chief joy is in trolling and discord. In between, you ran up a big backlog of inaccurate and/or unsourced stataments.
Why should we listen to you? What's in it for us?
Virgil: I wouldn't call it defensiveness; just that there was more to the statement than a reply to you. MdHatter analyzed that quite well.
No, it doesn't. There's more to it than was in your bit, but that doesn't make it a mischaracterization.I rejoice at Jesse Helms' passing precisely because I love the good.
Astro @129 - If I stay up my post may become rather "interesting".
Not likely, unless the air quotes are intentional, and denote sarcasm.
Come back when you've realized "the Fountainhead" isn't a seminal work of literature.
Astro - I think this sums it up nicely.
mdhatter, thas just WRONG!
Helms also got a mention in the song "Imperfect List" (Pete Wylie, IIRC, under the name "Big Hard Excellent Fish") alongside other ingredients for happiness such as "John Lennon's murder", "apartheid", "acid rain"...
I will ignore most of the snide comments made whilst I was minding mi own business sleeping.
Took me about 30 seconds to find this: on the civil rights act
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/economics/vmatheso/edit8.htm
Republicans supported the bill 27-6 in the Senate (82%) and 138-34 in the House (80%) while Democrats supported the bill 46-21 in the Senate (69%) and 152-96 in the House (61%). On the surface it would indeed appear that the Republicans, and not the Democrats as commonly assumed, were the champions of civil rights in the 1960s.
This is not a friendly article toward Republicans. It goes on to blame it all on Republicans even after citing inarguable statistics.
@137 Granted I was grumpy when I first showed up. But why did you guys disemvowell me? I mean really! My post was far less offensive than previous posts. You are correct when you say "un-sourced" statements. But you are not correct with the "inaccurate" part. As you can see the above is "sourced".
Also, if you read carefully I didn't:
"made it clear that your chief joy is in trolling and discord"
Oh, I guess I did, but I was responding with some sarcasm to comments like "do you pull the wings off of flies for kicks?" To which I responded that I got my kicks from irritating people like him. Get it? Sarcasm. Responding to an unprovoked attack.
Anyway I don't know how much more abuse I can take but here I am so have at me.
And another thing!
My original point was regarding the hatefulness and nastiness going on in here. Not about the "Civil Rights Act". Or the defense of Helms or any other "rabbit trails" that this has taken us down. To which I was attacked with "hatefulness an nastiness" LOL so I guess I have proven my original point quite well even if you guys fail to see it.
@ Jake,
And probably the truest statement ever made here.
@ RSSNDTRT , Jly 5, 2008 9:49 M
R: dsmvwlng
S th frm nz nnny dsfgrs pstngs nt t ts lkng ?
Fr spch... wht wndrfl cncpt !
There was a guerrilla war in the American South from the years 1867-1965 to reverse the result of the Civil War....
there's nothing to be proud of in American Race Relations, all of this should have been sorted out in the 1870's but your great-great-great grandfathers' Elites were weak and venal...sorry to speak ill of the dead but your forefathers have eaten sour grapes and now Astroknott et. al.'s teeth are on edge...
Still waiting for accurate totals of annual lynchings in the USA from 1922-1936 ... got any figures Astronutt?
@146 "Still waiting for accurate totals of annual lynchings in the USA from 1922-1936 ... got any figures Astronutt?"
Did you ask me for this previously? I must have missed it in all the hysterical name calling. ;o)
Here is some lynching info. for you. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAlynching.htm
BTW None of MY ancestors were involved in lynchings or slavery. The ONLY ancestor of mine to ever own slaves was a Baptist preacher who was given two slaves which he immediately freed! My ancestors were busy fighting the Civil war trying to FREE the slaves and END racism.
I am sure more unwarranted attacks will follow this post.
@133 "i think im detecting a bit of the napolian complex!"
I was short for my age. Always the littlest kid in school. Hence, the nicknames, Troll, Elf, Keebler, Hobbit etc. I was the kid that got picked on. Not the bully doing the picking.
Does that give me a Napoleon complex? Maybe so, I must remember never to use any self deprecating humor in here as it will be used against me.
WM_24076 @145: It can't have escaped your attention that Virgil, for example, disagrees with the general tenor of the beginning of this thread, but has yet to be disemvowelled. I suggest that that fact may have something to do with his level of civility. Worth thinking about, hmm?
@145 WM:
This post on the moderation policy explains everything you need to know about what you can say here, how you can say it, and the consequences of stepping out of line. It's remarkably permissive.
If you feel your ideas have been censored and have merit, please restate them in language that fits the rules.
These lynchings were going on twenty years before Helms got his monopoly-media perch on NC TV...not a very long time...like the first year of Bush I to us for comparison...Helms' publicised views resulted in Helms becoming an exemplar of these attitudes and a propagandist of these divisive attitudes...new in post-WWII politics, advocating a war of one kind of Americans against other Americans for personal political gain...Helms would start to whistle "Dixie" whenever a black member of the Congressional Caucus shared an elevator with him...and he spent many many years protecting and promoting an industry which sells deadly addictive poisons (preferably to as young a population as possible) all the while advocating the use of para-military force against peaceful marijuana users for which service he got rich while in "public service"...if he's a great American I'll spend my time with bad Americans...and as a lover of Liberty I'm proud to be a "liberal"...you got something against my liberties?
"Should I run spell check too?"
This is not just for the troll who asked the question: Yes, you should; we all should (unless one is hysterical or drunk). It's called respect, both social and personal. J. D. Salinger's Seymour Glass called it "shining your shoes for the fat lady."
/ref. "Frannie And Zooey."
@knotthead, my ancestors fought the civil(hah) war on the union side as well. my great grandfather was a sargent in the union army who was captured, and escaped the p.o.w. train on its way from andersonville to richmond, to return to the fighting for another 2 years. what the hell that has to do with the national embarrassment that was jesse helms? i have no idea. p.s. i'm sorry i made fun of your shortness. p.s.s. i still think you're a republicrat shill.
Anyway I don't know how much more abuse I can take but here I am so have at me.
count on almost none. Nor any responses.
What it has to do with Jesse helms is that he and many others think that the wrong side won the Civil War and they by violence sought to reverse the outcome from 1870-1940 and certainly prevented by violence any expression of the political will of the Southern blacks during that time.This is a "struggle" which Helms continued by non-violent means....there's a reason Southern whites like to wave the Confederate flag...and it is not a good one.
Helms was a slum lord - any apologists here for that aspect of his character?
I can source things too:
To "troll" means to allure, to fish, to entice or to bait.
Internet trolls are people who fish for other people's confidence and, once found, exploit it.
Trolls are various in nature and the type of damage they do ranges greatly, such as:
* Cause irritation to others
* Disrupt an email list or online group
* Steal money
* Obtain credit card details
* Build false hopes
* Abuse children
(see the link)
Trolls are also easy to spot with simple math. Often the use of "I", "me", and "my" abound.
Because of their narcissism, it certainly isn't about "us".
it's him, george carlin, and bozo the clown looking at their watches in the big lineup in the sky. whadda thought!
@#153 If you read the post I was responding to, you will see that my ancestry had been insulted. Hence the post explaining my ancestry. It has nothing to do with Helms.....I have been distracted from my original point from the get go.
Whats a "shill"? I am still a registered Republican but considering the current crop of NON-conservative losers they are I am considering going Libertarian.
Hope this clears up any confusion.
@#156 "To "troll" means to allure, to fish, to entice or to bait.
Internet trolls are people who fish for other people's confidence and, once found, exploit it."
I came in swinging from the start, no attempt to gain confidence whatsoever. As to your other points.
* Cause irritation to others
Guilty as charged!
* Disrupt an email list or online group
Nope
* Steal money
Nope
* Obtain credit card details
Nope
* Build false hopes
certainly not
* Abuse children
COME ON! now you are reaching
i notice he didn't say 'no' to the child abuse question...
oops, now I'M trolling!
FOX News has been running specials on how great he was. Tells you all you need to know about FOX News.
oops, now I'm trolling TOO.
(sings)
And we would all troll together....
@117 Buddy66
What's precious is how hard you work to pick a fight with everybody. You ever notice how it's always little dogs that yap the most? All they do is yap and scream and pitch a fit at everybody.
How about you trot down to the ice cream shop and have a cone, son? Grown-ups are trying to have a conversation here and you're just bothering us. Besides, the time away from the computer would do you some good.
WCC 104: Absolutely. I want to wait until the grass grows on it, and write "B I H" in urine. Seriously.
I probably can't get away with it though. And it's not a big enough ambition to make me actually travel to where he's buried, wherever that is.
RJ 115: Even Hitler, monstrous as he was, is regarded with a sort of clinical iciness nowadays. Nobody sits around banging their fist on the desk and yelling about what a bastard he was.
But right after he died, they celebrated. Trust me.
Astroknott 120: Also if you want to continue with technicalities its the Democrat party, not the Democratic party. Both parties are democratic parties. For some reason that always hacks off Democrats. So I love to point it out. ;o)
Shorter Astroknott: Why, yes, I am a troll. In case you were still in doubt.
If parties have the right to name themselves, it's the Democratic Party, not the Democrat Party. If not, then your party will henceforth be called the Torture Party, since it will "hack them off."
Why don't you finally keep your word and leave? Seriously, throw yourself in front of a bus. We don't care what you think at all, because you've been so rude about expressing it (and you've admitted with this post that your rudeness was deliberate). Get lost.
____ 147: So now the shoe's on the other foot, huh? No one can bully you so you're here to "even the score," without considering that the people here were more likely victims of bullying than perpetrators? Are you sure you were really being picked on for being little, or was that just the technique they used? Because if you were as much of a jerk then as you are now, I can think of another motive they might have had!
____ 158: I am still a registered Republican but considering the current crop of NON-conservative losers they are I am considering going Libertarian.
Now see, this is the sort of sentiment that would meet with considerable approval here, had you not poisoned the well by being such a jerkwad prior to this comment. I myself have said in the past that "the Republican Party has become a stinking midden where true conservatives suffocate in the effluvia of right-wing ideologues." (Go look up the big words, there's a good lad.) But most of us won't give a flying fling what you say now, because we don't want to "feed the troll" (as I'm doing with this comment, unless I decide not to post it).
Wha? At least I never pick on anybody smaller than me.
YOU flashed the Hitler card, RJ, not me. To an old commie, that's like a red flag (heh) to a bull; and you really shouldn't call a 77-year-old man "son."
If not, then your party will henceforth be called the Torture Party,
Invisible milk just shot out my nose.
Buddy, I don't know where he got that from. Sounded like a pretty random lash-out to me..
I enjoy your contributions.
I also find it repulsive when people cheer for another's death. It seems inordinate to hold such hatred for someone who isn't even in the world anymore.
Helms hated people for what they were and could not change--being black or gay.
People hate Helms for his words and deeds which he could have changed but didn't.
There is no moral equivalence between these positions.
@#170: Thank you, Arky. I'd be crazy to pick fights with bb's commenters; there's some really big dogs run these streets. Besides, all my crankiness gets used up trying to keep them goldang kids off my lawn.
@167
Dear Xopher,
What a flame war this has become. All from my initial posting, pointing out the hateful tone of this thread. I suppose it was my mistake. I was a bit rude. Did you actually read the poisonous posts I was commenting on? My comments were far more polite in comparison. Even my "disemvoweled" posts were tame compared to what I was commenting on.
In any case, will my throwing myself in front of a bus be sufficient for you or would you prefer a slow death by water boarding? Please describe in detail the horrible death that will bring you satisfaction.
Also, you say "But most of us won't give a flying fling what you say now, because we don't want to "feed the troll". Apparently thats not exactly true as you seem to be taking such pleasure in responding to what you "won't give a flying fling" about.
Going to go throw myself in front of a bus now. Or perhaps hang myself. Slash my wrists. What would you prefer?
Have a nice day.
You know, you're right. Buddy66 might have contributed a sarcastic one-liner, but it's my fault for setting-up the jab with an analogy he did not approve of.
Clearly I am out of line and randomly lashing out. I apologize and thank you for pointing out my grievous error.
@173 - What would you prefer?
That you find someone to share your life with.
Astroknott, as long as you go away, I actually don't care if you throw yourself in front of a bus, die peacefully in your sleep, or for that matter go and live happy all the rest of your days, and live as long as you care to.
The key, for me, is you going away.
And actually, I didn't take the trouble to read your disemvowelled posts. It's been your later ones that have really pissed me off. Once you admitted to posting things with the deliberate intention of pissing us off, all I wanted was to get rid of you. You COULD change that, but it would not be easy.
@175
"What would you prefer?
That you find someone to share your life with. "
Lets see, I have a wife, two kids, four beautiful, perfect grand babies, friends, etc. Four dogs too, if they count as someone to "share your life with".
Sheesh! The assumptions that have been made about me.
Good. Go give them a hug. You need it.
@176
Dear Xopher again,
Did you read the nasty attacks that I was defending myself against? Some recently made by yourself in fact. Maybe your wrath might be directed elsewhere if you recognize what has been said and assumed about me. You say, "Once you admitted to posting things with the deliberate intention of pissing us off, all I wanted was to get rid of you." At least I admitted my intentions. The postings directed at me had the same intention. And some of the things that piss you guys off.....my goodness! Such thin skins. I mean, calling the "Democratic" party the "Democrat" party. It's actually a matter of accuracy, and wasn't originally intended to offend. But, Whoa! Offend it does. What a tiny thing to get bent out of shape over. And yet.......the flames come!
And NO! I am unlikely to just "go away". Sorry to disappoint. ;o) I am sure that pisses you off so LOL I will stick around. (just to piss you off)! You are so easy.
XOPHER, i think it's art. Not good art, but he's clearly practicing something. I say we keep engaging him, just to keep him off the streets.
XO - nevermind - he's just another muddy pig lookin to wrassle with us yung'uns, angriest about his own flaws when he sees them in others.
Kinda reminds me of Jesse Helms, just to bring it back on topic.
Dear Mad hatter,
LOL.... that was sweet of you. Also, I already gave my perfect grand baby girl a hug nitey nite. The rest of the fam will get one shortly.
Not planning on prowling the streets, so I think you guys are safe.
Dear Xopher,
I might actually "go away" for a bit. It's almost sleepy time. ;o)
time for a brooming I think
Dear Mad hatter,
How did I suddenly go from needing a hug to just being a muddy pig wanting to wrestle? Lets see, wrestling is kinda like getting hugged. Without the affection. ;o(
i b'lieves a blanket party is more on the order of the day!
awww, perhaps yer just a muddy pig who needs a hug. how effin cute!
I reloaded, and you made your slippery nature abundantly clear. Good Day.
Astroknutt 182: I might actually "go away" for a bit. It's almost sleepy time.
Sleep well. And long.
Like about 20 years.
Hey, anybody want to go to Helms' funeral with signs that say JESSE IN HELL and the like?
No?
Well, since you put it that way, me neither. If the Rethuglican Torture Party wants to climb aboard the handbasket, I guess warning them off IS bad strategy!
#174: Apology accepted, RJ, one hip-shooter to another. The tendency to welcome as good news the death of a political antagonist, especially one as noxious as Jesse Helms, is to be expected from people of passionate natures. Such outpourings of feelings have a long tradition. I recall throwing a loud and successful party at the death of witch hunter Pat McCarran. Of course it was also a convenient reason to have a kegger.
McCain had praise for Jesse Helm's work in the Senate.Obama was kinda of well,polite.
McCain said he knows nothing about computers.
Not knowing nothing about the digital world
puts us all in jeopardy,The next war will be
fought in ones and zero.
Just think when an enemy might
shut down our economy by screwing up
the billing system of L.L.Bean.
The fussin and fuedin on this thread tells you all you need to know about Helms and his legacy - he was a paid shill for hateful folk whose primary goal was to change the subject. His tobacco work dwarfs any good he may have done.
A proud exemplar of hate speech he was and I shall never mention nor think of this man again....
That is , change the subject to what was important to Helms' Madsters...what happened to the TV station owner who gave Helms his perch? And how did Helms get a perch like that under FCC license conditions? Still waiting for radical left-wing nightly editorials from ANY US media outlet...but it's all one way signs in the USA now, right?
Anything to distract from GWB's wars, huh, astronutt?
"You know, like the man or not, it's not right to celebrate his death." -- Screw that. Screw the whole "honored dead" concept. He was slime while he was alive, and his death is a wonderful thing. He doesn't gain some special status for finally dying in my book any more than I have a sudden fondness for a cancerous growth once it's been excised from a living body.
If there's anything to celebrate, it's that he lost his grip on power at a time when he got to witness the unravelling of the rancid redneck right's grip on power. He got to see that the Republican Party may actually become a party again, instead of a zombie host for parasites like himself and Darth Cheney. He got to see that most of the people who once stood behind his idea of conservatism turned away in disgust.
Now *that* is satisfying.
Mindful where Jesse Helms is going (Jerry Falwell is already there, of course), ol' Jesse isn't gonna like Fridays, if you know what I mean. ;-)
A great man my ass. He was a racist piece of shite. And quoting something from the fucking national review is hardly likely to convince many right thinking people of reading the lies contained therein.
Nobama 199: You may want to read further about the man.
Then again, we may not. He never repudiated any of the evil he did. So, he did a little good (assuming that article isn't total bullshit or an outright Rickroll; I don't have time to bother with it) in his last years? So fucking what? Still an evil, evil, rotten person, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans.
The grave-pissing will immediately follow the Asparagus Festival.
Malignant troll alert! He's got a big new ladle and he's trying to stir the shit.
His only prior contribution (in this unclever incarnation) to BB was "God bless America".
My friend says: "My heart goes out to his family"
I say: "They'll just add it to his collection."
Just want to jump in and say the moral high ground in this argument isn't exactly Mount Everest. I mean, when the discussion can be summarized as "Good riddance. He was a d-bag" versus "He's dead so don't say that", there's not a lot of lively exchange of ideas going on from opposing points of view.
Hey Xopher,
OK I will bite. Can you explain exactly how Sen. Helms was "responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans". How is that possible? I didn't think Senators had that kind of power.
I'll spoon feed in installments:
"Senator Jesse Helms, member of the US Senate's foreign relations committee for two decades and its chairman from 1995 to 2001, has died at the age of 86. To echo this newspaper's memorable comment on the death of William Randolph Hearst, it is hard even now to think of him with charity. From his earliest years, Helms's attitudes recalled those of an earlier southern bigot, Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi, who so outraged his Senate colleagues, that they eventually refused even to let him take his seat.
There was never a comparable risk for Helms, who maintained an old-world courtesy in his personal contacts. But that was only on the surface. He became one of the most powerful and baleful influences on American foreign policy, repeatedly preventing his country paying its UN contributions, voting against virtually all arms control measures, opposing international aid programmes as "pouring money down foreign rat holes", and avidly supporting military juntas in Latin America and minority white regimes in Southern Africa.
In domestic politics he denounced the 1964 Civil Rights Act as "the single most dangerous piece of legislation ever introduced in the Congress", voted against a supreme court justice because she was "likely to uphold the homosexual agenda", acted for years as spokesman for the large tobacco companies, was reprimanded by the justice department and the federal election commission for electoral malpractice, and compiled a dismal personal record as a slum landlord.
The irony was that he was often seen as a relative moderate in his home state of North Carolina. His views sprang directly from his background as the son of the police chief in the small town of Monroe. Even before the Depression, life there was a constant struggle. It produced generations of deeply conservative poor whites, steeped in jingoistic patriotism and fundamentalist religion, who regarded the surrounding black population as barely part of the human race.
Helms was educated at local schools and had just enrolled for a college course when America entered the second world war. In 1942, he joined the navy, to be given a role which inadvertently established his postwar career. As a recruiting officer, he had to make regular patriotic appeals on local radio. They brought him sufficient recognition after the war to abandon his college studies for journalism, initially as news editor of the Raleigh Times and later as director of news and programmes for the principal local radio network.
In 1960, he was given an extraordinary boost when the owner of the main local television station appointed him one of the new medium's first editorial commentators. For 12 years, Helms appeared nightly at peak viewing time to denounce the civil rights struggle, trade unions, the UN, Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty, hippies, and any other social or political development rejected by the extreme right. His commentaries were repeated by 70 southern radio stations and, as they became increasingly popular, reprinted in 200 newspapers across America."
OK Takuan, I am assuming you are answering the question I posed to Xopher? You are blaming thousands of deaths on Helms essentially because of his voting record? I know thats over simplifying things a bit. But that's how it looks.
Thats akin to the kind of reasoning that some pro-lifers use to blame the deaths of millions of babies on (insert politician of choice here)'s record of voting against pro-life bills. Or accusing the Supreme court of infanticide because of its Roe vs. Wade decision. Sorry, but thats a ridiculous line of reasoning.
You can do the same sort of thing with ANY politician from ANY side of the political spectrum. I suppose if I tried hard enough, and twisted myself into enough logic knots, I could find a way to blame Bill Clinton for hundreds of thousands of deaths too. Or Jimmy Carter or......pick your victim.
You have to come up with something better than a rehash of his political career.
Here is an example of what I mean.
Politician X votes in favor of a "concealed carry" handgun law in his state. His political enemies blame all subsequent handgun murders on him, because he "put more guns on the streets".
Or politician X votes against the same "concealed carry" handgun law. His political enemies will say that he is responsible for the murder of innocent "victims", because they were unable to defend themselves because there was no legal concealed carry.
As a legislative arm twister and pimp for big tobacco he probably racked up a quarter of a million deaths right there.
Come on Buddy 66, people who smoke and die from lung cancer have no one to blame but themselves. Does anyone on this planet NOT know that smoking will kill you? Lets blame automobile accidents on the car companies or "big oil". Makes about as much sense. Or we could blame suicides on the rope manufacturers for making the "hanging" rope. Or we can blame obesity on McDonalds, even though people have the option of eating, where, and how much, that they want. you may actually be in favor of some of those. ;o)
Okay, ASTRO, how's *complicit* in the deaths of a quarter of a million people? Will you accept that? If so, then how great was his complicity? Was it greater than the store clerk who sold the cigarettes? How large a bloody footprint did he leave on the planet (if you'll pardon my hijacking a current metaphor)?
Yep, I drink, I drive, I smoke, and I often eat risky food, but that doesn't let that mthrfckr Jesse Helms off the hook.
/self-disemvoweled because my 97-year-old mother doesn't like the word.
Astroknott, while the link between smoking and lung cancer is well-publicized today, it wasn't always; neither was it always recognized just how addictive tobacco can be. Adults who start smoking today shouldn't be surprised when they can't quit. But my father started smoking in the 1950s. He tried to quit, and failed, multiple times before his death; his first heart attack at age 36 sort of gave him an extra incentive, but he still couldn't quit.
Senator Helms was not only against legislation to curtail smoking itself, he also opposed funding research that revealed just how nasty the stuff is; he also tried to repudiate the findings of such research.
And that's not even looking at his racist attitudes.
The term that comes to mind when I think of him is "actively malevolent".
Guys! This is rich! First of all its NOT that hard to quit smoking. I quit and it was cake. Whats hard is deciding you WANT to quit. Now thats the hard part.
I will accept maybe a, slight, "complicity" in the deaths of smokers by the folks who grow and sell the smokes, and thats VERY slight. But that is still really weak. As long as people are refusing to accept responsibility for their own actions then you going to get this kind of blame game going on.
You could say that alcohol and the alcohol industry is responsible for the deaths of thousands due to drunk drivers. No, drunk drivers are responsible. You could say that I made the hole in the ozone layer because I fix air conditioners. Yes, its all MY fault. Come on guys cant you do better than this?
Astroknott,
When I told you your mission was to encourage people to smoke, I envisioned you giving cigarettes to school aged children. Telling people that quitting smoking isn't hard when it's an established, well known fact that nicotine affects the same area of the brain as heroin is not really going to get more people out there puffing away, which was your brief.
Remember your brief? Remember when I said "Do Not Fail Me" in the scary voice, and there was fire and stuff? I have to say you've failed me.
Sigh. I suppose that's why I'm the Evil Overlord and you're the minion.
and:
"In a climate well to the right of mainstream politics in Europe, Helms became extraordinarily influential among those Americans Richard Nixon dubbed the silent majority. At the same time he built up a solid political network in North Carolina, working for several conservative senators, serving on Raleigh town council, running the state's bankers' association, and joining the Masons, their associates the Shriners, and the Rotarians.
By the time the Republican Richard Nixon moved into the White House in 1969, Helms's political ambitions had been focused. In 1972, in a state that had voted solidly Democratic since the civil war, he stood for the Senate as a Republican. In a bitter campaign against a middle-of-the-road opponent, Helms won by 8%. It was a signal of the South's seismic political shift after years of Democratic desegregation. It also made Helms the first North Carolina Republican to sit in the US senate for nearly 80 years.
His initial ambition was to secure his place on the agriculture committee, where he could push the interests of the powerful tobacco lobby for which he had worked for years. But, in a move which proved a stroke of near-genius at a time when direct-mail was in its infancy, he and two close associates organised a postal campaign for a body they named "the National Congressional Club". The repeated arrival of impressive-looking letters signed by Helms and denouncing school busing, funding for the arts, compensation for Japanese-Americans, the Red menace, and umpteen other liberal causes, sparked a stunning national response.
His allegations were often mind-numbingly bizarre. "Your tax dollars are being used," he claimed in one letter, "to pay for grade school classes that teach our children that cannibalism, wife-swapping, and the murder of infants and the elderly are acceptable behaviour." But his rhetoric convinced millions of Americans and, invited to save the nation by donating a dollar, they did just that. A river of cash poured into the club.
What happened to it all remained a constant mystery and, as the rules on election finances were slowly tightened, the club's accounts grew ever fuzzier. Some cash certainly went to the Coalition of Freedom, which had Helms as its honorary chairman until federal tax authorities began investigating its illegal campaign activities.
More than $800,000 went to a firm called Jefferson Marketing. Then the election commission established that this company was inseparable from the club, making its electoral operations unlawful. Less traceable were donations to other conservative groups and to fundamentalist religious figures like Jerry Falwell.
What is beyond question is the malign impact of Helms's innovation on all subsequent American politics. He inaugurated the age of massive back-door political donations, now euphemistically known as "soft money". In his own 1984 re-election battle, he spent $16.5m, then the most expensive Senate campaign in American history (and the federal election commission twice penalised him for using illegal contributions). Sixteen years later, a New Jersey candidate would lavish $60m on gaining a Senate seat, making it evident how effectively Helms's initiative had opened political office to the highest bidder."
Also if you want to continue with technicalities its the Democrat party, not the Democratic party.
Only if you're illiterate and don't understand the basics of grammar. "Democrat" is a noun. "Democratic" is an adjective.
This prank is worth a BB tip but I'll post it here, video of the day in 1991 when Aids activists placed a giant condom over Helms' house.
"We need protection against Helms' bigotry and ignorance," said James Serafini, one of the seven activists who carried out the stunt. "Condoms have worked pretty well in protecting against HIV, so we decided to try one on the senator."
http://wockner.blogspot.com/2008/07/day-act-up-put-condom-on-helms-house.html
That's great, JOHN; how did I miss that? It's not something one would easily forget. Thanks.
OK, I have seen the error of my ways. Now I want to talk you, my friends, out of the same error.
DNFTT. Seriously.
I don't mean Nobama, who appears to have shuffled off this mort—um, to Buffalo. I mean Astroknott. "First of all its NOT that hard to quit smoking" proves that he's a troll, a whole troll, and nothing but a troll. As if you couldn't tell from his admission that he's here to piss people off.
Stop responding to his asinine comments, stop answering his ridiculous questions, completely ignore him unless he's actually rude—and then limit your response to "dropping an eyeball" on him (i.e. clicking the "Take a look at this" icon to the right of his post). At this point even if he becomes reasonable and stops trying to generate heat, rather than light, we should still ignore him: it's a trap, trust me.
The trouble is that he's still having fun. If we make it no fun for him, he will go away.
And we can go back to discussing the mass murders that can be laid at the door of Jesse Helms.
and finally:
"With Helms's agenda moving into the political mainstream — opposition to abortion, gun control, foreign entanglements, multicultralism, social welfare, educational reform and a host of other liberal policies — millions of voters dropped out and the rest divided evenly into mutually hostile camps.
For all his political posturing, however, Helms repeatedly showed himself inept at the tedious business of shepherding legislation through Congress.
The Senate's tradition of choosing committee chairmen by seniority eventually brought him to head the agriculture committee (1981-87). It should have been an enviable chance to promote North Carolina's farming and tobacco interests, which employ half its people. Yet the state, ranked eleventh by population, had one of the nation's highest poverty rates and lowest levels of federal funding.
Helms contributed his share to this misery with his ownership of rented houses in poor black districts of Raleigh. Some tenants reported that his properties had been without adequate heating for 30 years. The city's building inspectors repeatedly issued summonses against Helms to remedy a wide range of dilapidations, from rotting floors to leaking pipes.
Helms's principal skill, in fact, was obstruction, which he employed ruthlessly once he assumed chairmanship of the foreign relations committee in 1995, having been a member since 1981. The Senate's arcane rule book offers virtually uncontrollable power to committee chairmen to determine their own agenda. In a private war with the state department, Helms refused to hold confirmation hearings for 18 new ambassadors, or to debate such key issues for the Clinton administration as the chemical weapons or strategic arms treaties.
He cut the state department's funds by $1,700m until the administration finally agreed to his reorganization proposals, abolishing the arms control and information services and placing new restrictions on the US aid agency. In 1996, he caused an international furore by joining forces with Congressman Dan Burton of Indiana to push through the Helms-Burton Act, extending American jurisdiction to international companies trading with Cuba.
But continued Republican control of the Senate meant that Helms could not be ignored. He established a Jesse Helms Centre in his home town of Wingate, at which American and foreign dignitaries could pay homage. Those unable to attend in person could demonstrate their goodwill in cash: Taiwan donated $225,000, Kuwait $100,000, and various tobacco companies more than $1m.
Former president Jimmy Carter, secretary of state Madeleine Albright, Dr Henry Kissinger, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, and other key public figures all turned up. Eventually even the UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, heeded the call: in the aftermath of his visit, the foreign relations committee suddenly released America's long-outstanding payments to the UN.
In later years, Helms suffered from increasingly poor health. He contracted prostate cancer and a bone disorder, Paget's disease, which obliged him to travel round the Senate building on a scooter. He also underwent a quadruple heart bypass.
Helms finally lost his chairmanship of the foreign relations committee when the moderate Vermont Republican Senator James Jeffords, lost patience with the Bush administration in May 2001. His defection to the Democrats secured their control of the Senate and of all its legislative committees.
This sudden loss of power, allied to his failing health, at last convinced Helms that it was time to give up. In August that year, he announced he would not run again when his term expired in 2002.
Though there was dismay in North Carolina, his decision was greeted with relief by most of the country. The New York Times observed: "Few senators in the modern era have done more to resist the tide of progress," and Robert Pastor, whose ambassadorship to Panama was scuppered by Helms in 1995, commented that, "nothing Jesse Helms did in his entire career will enhance America's national security more than his retirement."
He is survived by his wife Dorothy, two daughters and a son.
• Jesse Helms, politician, born October 18 1921; died July 4 2008"
all of the foregoing available at #15 Wastrel's obit link. Which anyone honest and responsible would have already read. Which shows Helms lives on in the likes of "astronutt"
What gave a total no-talent, malignant, evil little loser like Helms power? Voters who fed the troll. And worse: voters who didn't at all.
Okay, Xopher, no more troll crackers from me. After fending off Nobama, this one snuck up on me.
Astroknott and Nobama,
It seems that you're both sowing dissension for your own amusement, rather than participating in a real discussion. My concern for the blood pressure of the other commenters forces me to give you both a week-long time-out. You may apply to Teresa for reinstatement at that time.
Wait, wait: I just thought of the perfect comment!
Hello?
Aw, nuts...
good riddance.
I'm a little late coming back (I just now discovered that I can track my comments via my profile), but I understand what Helms has done to earn such a vehemently negative view in most people's eyes and I agree he's earned no praise. I've read about the man's actions and words and I'd probably have spoken a whole lot of ill about him to his face had it been possible.
I just think that celebrating the death of someone because of their cause(s) both aggrandizes the person undeservedly and belittles the severity of the cause(s).
Also, as I like to think of things, if hatred begets hatred, then everyone becomes part of a family tree which bears only bitter and toxic fruit. It's best to take the high road and focus anger at ideas, not people.
I'll be angry at people and ideas.
i prefer to focus my anger like a laser beam, and use it to see thru women's clothing.
Airpillo: I usually regard moments like this as a necessary expression of relief. Helms' actions had a nationwide impact yet he couldn't be voted out of office by those outside his state. And even when out of office--as he was in his later years--people such as Helms often act as an inspiration for the Santorums of the world who'd love to continue their policies.
I noted somwhere in the noise above that I don't see any moral equivalence between the despicable views and actions of Helms and those who hated him for those actions.
Lastly, there's this from Sirius radio broadcaster Michelangelo Signorile who hosts a show discussing gay issues:
"No, I do not have any sympathy at this time for his family or anyone else connected to this man, so fuck that usual nicety reserved even for the family of those with whom you disagreed. This is beyond a "disagreement." Jesse Helms almost single-handedly allowed the deaths of thousands -- willfully denied them help -- while pushing his moral agenda in the Senate. His faint supposed apology in recent years -- for not doing more on AIDS, not for his vicious homophobia -- was far too little, too late, designed to clean up his ghastly legacy a little bit before he croaked. Throughout the 80s and 90s my friends died, and perhaps some of your friends died too, because this man stalled vital research and prevention efforts and villified gay people."
http://signorile2003.blogspot.com/2008/07/jesse-helms-is-dead-happy-4-th-of-july.html
Some people have been, and will remain, righteously angry that Helms got away with so much for so long.
'm bslty bhrrd t th shr vlm f gnrnt, htfl nd flt t vl cmmnts cmng frm th rdrs f ths st.
Yr scknng, chldlsh rmrks r fckng dsgrc. t s clrly bvs s wll, tht nn f y slmy lttl crtns hv th slghtst cl wh Jss Hlms rlly ws.
Fckng dmb ss shp.
Mod update: Nobama was a previously banned sock puppet. His comments have been removed from the thread.
Lessee, JohnK: "I'm basalty abhorred to the shore velum (sp) if gunrunt, hotflo nod fleet to vole comoments coming forum the ardors if thus set."
What on EARTH does THAT mean? >:-D
No, no, 'ginrant' and 'acmemints'.
Ginrant (n): A lengthy tirade delivered after drinking a fifth of Beefeater.
Acmemints (n): Fresheners used after falling off a cliff in pursuit of a roadrunner and getting a mouthful of dirt.
Funny, XOPHER, funny! Could you do a couple more disemvoweled comments? I'm practicing blowing liquids through my nose.
Buddy66: I can only do them as they come up...that one was so nasty I just had to heap derision on it.