Punks in the Masons
Last week, the Boston Globe talked to some local punk musicians who have taken to hanging out in local Masonic lodges. I know quite a few old punks in California who have joined the brotherhood too. Want to be one? Ask one. From the Boston Globe:
“It’s kind of like a history class that no one else can take,” said Dave Norton, drummer for Victory at Sea and The Men. He believes his membership in the fraternal organization will be especially rewarding when he tours Europe later this year.Link (Thanks, Vann Hall!)
“I can go anywhere in the world and find a brother,” he said.
Gary Robley, drummer for Dashboard Jesus and J. Geils cover band Blow Your Face Out, said he joined because his father was a Mason, as are many of his friends.
“There were a bunch of musicians I knew in it,” Robley said. “It was kind of a brotherhood. Musicians have always been a part of Masonry since its inception.”
Isn't the first rule of the Masons that you don't talk about the Masons? My grandfather has a Masonic ring and was in the Lodge when he was younger, but he has never explained anything to me about them, except for that it's a fraternity, and it's not to be discussed with outsiders (especially women!)
Women had their own masonic auxiliary, with their own spooky rituals.
My sister once bought a car from the estate of a couple of masonic ladies. There were a couple of little leather purses -- credit card sized things -- in the trunk. Inside each was a little waxed paper envelope that contained a ash-covered penny.
OH MY GOD SOMEONE CALL THE COPS THEY'VE TRACKED ME DOWN AND
only kidding i made that up there was nothing in the envelopes it probably had nothing to do with masons anyway hah hah lol!
It's not quite as cloak-and-dagger as all that, though I've heard that younger members enjoy playing up the secretive angle.
One side of my family was heavily involved in the Masons and the women's equivalent, Daughters of the Eastern Star. I thought about getting into it myself, as a way of meeting new people in a new city, but there was a stumbling block for me: you have to swear you believe in "A higher power." Apparently they're pretty neutral on what the higher power is, but I'm way too agnostic to swear any such thing. I imagine I'm not the only one uncomfortable with that.
Young men of all walks of life are joining the Fraternity in record numbers. Lodges are seeing membership growth for the first time since the 50s. It's an exciting time to be sure.
btw, Pesco's remark that "to be one, ask one" refers to the fact that membership is never solicited. So if you've been waiting for your father or grandfather to give you a membership application, know that they most likely won't. It's not an exclusivity thing; rather it's to ensure that men who join really have a strong desire to do so.
The California Grand Lodge site has lots of information on how you can get connected to a Lodge in your area.
My lodge has a number of musicians in it as well. I think there's something in common between Masonry and certain styles of music (such as opera and heavy metal) in that there is a sort of larger-than-life quality about the whole thing.
It's worth noting that while mainstream Masonry is exclusively male, there is such a thing as co-Masonry and women's Masonry in this country. That said, I think that men interested in Masonry should join a mainstream (masculine) lodge is it offers something you just won't find in a mixed environment.
-Junior Warden, Mariners Lodge No. 67
Excellent article, and thanks for mentioning it here on Boing Boing.
It's good to see other "punk rockers" involved in the Craft. I am a 32nd degree Mason, an officer in my Blue Lodge, and someone still into independent music, culture and publishing - and have been dedicated to the "do-it-yourself" ideal since my days as a "punk rocker", as a youth.
modernMason | (link removed)
My father is a Mason and a Shriner, and I've always admired work they do supporting their children's hospital. I'd love to join just to help with that, but I'm not too keen on the belief in a supreme being thing. Still, the Shrine Auditorium holds most of the punk shows in this town.
Masons, traditionally, never solicited members. We are, however, free to talk about Masonry (in general) if asked.
Yes, we have a religious requirement, though it boils down to 'not an atheist' - if you can swear on some kind of Holy Book, and doing so means something to you, that's about as much as we ask.
Recently, in many US jurisdictions, there's been a bit of a recruiting drive, and initiation rates are rising after a long slump. Films like 'American Treasure' haven't hurt either.
I guess the first well-known musician Mason was Mozart. Not a punk, but perhaps a Bad Boy.
Past Master, Wilder Lodge, MA
I always thought that Secret Societies going back to ancient greece revered particular math, and particular numbers/combinations. What is music but elegant math and numbers, most people know this I would think. And punks who are into the DIY Knowledge side of things would be fascinated by the esoteric ideas that have helped make music throughout the ages.
A lot of my scooterist friends (early to late 30s) joined the Eagles Lodge purely for the cheap drinks and the ability to rent out their hall for our functions.
Wow - it's interesting to see so many Masons posting on this.
I've always been given a bit of a negative impression of Masonic lodges -
From the outside it looks a bit like a club where members do each other favors - helping each other get jobs / do business and social deals / etc (over the heads of non masons)
And the secrecy aspect of it separates it from normal social groups and networking. So non masons don't really know if (for example) a masonic member of the police force would be under pressure to treat masons differently from the rest of the public.
Is that an unfair characterization? What is the appeal?
I have a couple of friends who are masons, and I don't for a second mean to suggest it's anything particularly sinister or cult-y but I really am interested in what the draw is.
Is it really just a social group, and if so, why the secrecy?
Weeeeird. I actually spoke to a couple of skin heads the other day that we're talking about joining a lodge here in Houston. I was like "check out this video first":
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2748614967389038944
I got a taste of esoterism in my college fraternity. That was enough for me.
ModernMason,
We don't allow links to blog frontpages. If you have a post that's specifically related to the subject of this post, that's okay.
Many apologies!
Wait just a minute! closed and secret? women separate? must be non-athetist? hierarchical? - this does NOT sound like something the Punks I know would be involved with!
does freemasonry offer a ready made infrastructure to resist a fascist coup d'etat?
Pablissimo,
Fair to say that Freemasonry is more an organization with secrets than a secret organization. And you can do a Google search and find all the ritual. But reading the ritual is not the same experience as participating in it. That's the value of ritual.
That said. Having a secret is power. Read Foucault's Pendulum!
Pablissimo:
Masons do not generally prefer each others in business or social matters--that is not to say it never happens, it is just not institutionalized and indeed in much of our literature it is frowned upon. too many charlatans using their masonic affiliation to swindle the brethren.
It's more than a social group. It is kind of a secular mystery used to teach a system of morals. It's purpose is to teach men to live together harmoniously and to strive to behave charitably. It uses ritual and 'degrees' to do this. Some people find it mystical and esoteric, some people like the pancake breakfasts.
Worked as a bartender at a Masonic lodge in college. It was *extremely* strange -- though no punk musicians in the membership. This was more of a country club atmosphere -- old white guys getting drunk & womanizing. Blogged about it a few years back:
http://bsuwg.blogspot.com/2006/01/as-i-was-saying-about-masons.html
Vespabelle:
Masons have been riding Vespas (and cushmans, and mini cars) for yers, right?
And Punks ahve a long tradition of being in the masons- look at the cover of Frankenchrist. Left to right, that's Jello, Ray, Klaus and DH, right?
Wow, 13 posts in and nobody's played the "OMG THE MASONS R RULING TEH WORLD WITH NEW WORLD ORDUR AND AL QAUEDA AND THE QUEEN OF ENGLNDS A LIZARD AND 9-11 AND SATANIC CHILD RITUALS AT WHITE HOUSE AND RULING TEH BANKS!11!1" tinfoil-hat card yet. Impressive.
way to blow it! I was saving that!
Standard Grey,
Why repeat what everyone already knows to be the truth? But you forgot the Denver Airport.
@ Antinous-
Of course it's truth: we learned it on teh intarnets!
Oh yeah- forgot about Denver Airport. And pentagrams in Washington DC.
For over two years, I've been researching one of the recordings on Harry Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music -- the cut recorded in St. Paul, Minnesota in 1927.
(That's the very freaky and little-researched "Moonshiners Dance Part One" by Frank Cloutier and The Victoria Cafe Orchestra.)
And, sure enough, more than a few of the musicians closely associated with the recording were Freemasons. For one thing, you can often tell by the symbols on their headstones.
Return of the Frat Daddies. Ugh.
Supreme Being or Higher Power can be and IS whatever you want it to be. Don't fall for the okey-doke of assuming that it means one religion's 'God.'
It can be Art, or Music, or Nature or whatever. Please don't let that stop anyone from joining, if that's what you would like.
The story link is to the Boston Herald, not the Boston Globe (x2)
Jake von Slatt (#16) said what I was thinking. I can see that in some twisted perverse way skinheads might go for Masonry because it has that
exclusionism and secrecy and hierarchical authoritarian structure they seem to crave, but real punks are usually anarchists or libertarians.
Maybe they are just in it for the crazy jewelry.
I once had a book called "Morals and Dogma: Ancient and Accepted Rite of Scottish Freemasonry" or something like that. Reading it was like reading a book by Zecharia Sitchin.
"DIY Punks" joining a fraternity, submitting to a higher power and excluding women. Weird. Ain't no punk I ever knew. If anyone wants to engage a social group and extend in charity, another option would be to check out (or start) your local food not bombs. They're also everywhere, inclusive and the rituals are useful in daily life (how to cook). Starting a chapter with friends is easy, recruiting help on craigslist even easier.
Although some lodges would make decent venues, alternatives do exist for your DIY entertainment. My favorite DIY venue was a community center for the blind. On top of a refundable deposit, we would give them a percentage of the door and clean everything.
"DIY Punks" joining a fraternity, submitting to a higher power and excluding women. Weird. Ain't no punk I ever knew
John Lydon had a great remark about when Punk went off the rails. See, at first everyone dressed and acted however they wanted. Then you started seeing a uniformity to the style (leathers, collars, spikey hair), being a punk became less about being yourself and more about fitting a framework, a mold, a style. Be yourself, just like everyone else.
The guy who turned me on to Bad Religion became a Mason though his brothers lodge. He's met a number of friends, a mentor andregularly has drinks with some smart older guys who do cool ceremonial stuff dating back centuries.
The least punk thing you can do is whip out a punk measuring stick to hold up to other people. Just be you and let them be them.
So does this mean the Masons have a mosh pit now?
Quite frankly, you usually only end up talking about (fill in your occult group) to other group members. Outsiders aren't trusted with secrets. Anyway, first rule is keep your mouth shut about the internal goings-on. We aren't like churches, but are private clubs. You have to be asked to join.
Uniformity of style is classic Boston Punk Rawk - at least since 1992 or so. This article really doesn't surprise me at all...I left the scene in Boston (after having grown up in Charlestown) because of the overriding influence of the "Unity" crews in the late 80's/early 90's.
Somehow Unity turned ugly in Boston, and became an all out attack on anyone "not like us". The fact that Punk Rock embraces outsiders was lost on a core group of people intent on excluding anyone not showing the proper "respect". Is it any wonder that self-proclaimed Boston Punk Rockers would turn to the Masons?
"Punks not dead it just deserves to die when it becomes another stale cartoon. A close-minded, self-centered social club - Ideas don't matter it's who you know..."
This is the town that spawned FSU after all...
My family has a long history with Masonry, and it's really not all that secret or exciting. As I've said to more than one friend, if they were running the world I wouldn't be flippin' poor. I was in one of the girls' groups growing up and it was a good experience overall. Learned public speaking, how to run a meeting, serve on committees, did a lot of charitable work, etc. Not bad things to do as a kid, really. It gave me a lot of self-confidence in public that I might not have had otherwise.
Masons (and all related groups) do a lot of charitable work, and much of it is based on public service. Oh... and some of them wear really cool hats. Had to include that. I always wanted a fez.
Yes, well, of course, this is just the sort blinkered philistine pig ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit there on your loathsome, spotty behinds squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss about the struggling artist. You excrement! You lousy hypocritical whining toadies with your lousy colour TV sets and your Tony Jacklin golf clubs and your bleeding Masonic handshakes! You wouldn't let me join, would you, you blackballing bastards! Well I wouldn't become a Freemason now if you went down on your lousy, stinking, purulent knees and begged me!
@mgfarrelly -- I think you might be missing the point of John Lydon's critique of punk. I think he actually was holding up a punk measuring stick -- he said there's more to punk than just listening to music, going to shows and dressing the look.
While punk music can sell cars, punk culture has a long history of anti-consumerism (do it yourself). So yes, we can all have our own hyphen-punk music and still have enormous differences.
So if you feel like me (mason-punks, huh?), I would suggest that we're reading "punk culture" when we should be reading "punk music". I'm sure the Boston Herald doesn't see the difference between culture and it's co-opted musical expressions. That's probably what bothers me because this isn't the punk culture I experienced.
This confusion is probably true for any young culture with just enough history to have evolved. How many fans of modern hip hop know "the four elements" (MCing, DJing, breakdancing and graffiti)? As things change, those of us who remember how things were get crotchety and say things like "back in my day punks opposed authority, religion and sexism" when things change.
As for Bad Religion and the Masons, whatever. I was turned on to the Dead Kennedys by a Mormon. That doesn't mean the Mormons and the Dead Kennedys share most of their values.
Great to see this coverage and so many comments! I've been a Freemason for a bit over a year and am really enjoying it. Pablissimo and others were asking about the appeal.
As someone who believes in God, enjoys theology, but is not religious per-se, it's good to gather with people of different spiritual and religious beliefs as equals, without religion or background getting in the way. Most young masons I know are heavily tattooed, and I assume that's what is meant by 'punks'. Often punks like to go for beers after the meetings, and beer is delicious. So there's also a comradely element; basically the point of it being a fraternity.
Takuan, that's an interesting question about resisting fascism. Freemasons are often targets of fascists because they represent a diverse worldwide network of people that they can not control and who would oppose them for moral reasons. In WWII Germany, Freemasons were forced to were an inverted red triangle, were sent to concentration camps and between 80,000 and 200,000 Freemasons (though I'm sure many were also Jews) were killed. So, no it might not help if you live in a fascist dictatorship.
keep it underground then, you will be needed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdaRuTwWl9I&feature=related
I think folks would be mildly amused at who in the indie/underground-ish music and arts worlds are Masons and have been for a long time, but I ain't namin' names. If they're takin' over the world, they sure are burning a long fuse to do it.
#16 posted by Jake von Slatt:
My sentiments exactly. Well, at least they aren't calling themselves hardcore or anything... then, that would be fightin' words.
I've had family in the Masons and they weren't strange, outwardly evil or anything. But many years ago when a friend's older, wealthy parents died suddenly without warning in an accident, we later got access to his Dad's books (who was at a very high degree within the Masons - he wore the ring, he had the compass and ruler on his grave, etc.) and we read the fucked up rules and strange rituals in the Masonic book he had under lock and key (we had to have the safe opened by a locksmith). We had access to his private correspondences as well, but I won't get into that except to say, we knew his specific degree.
Being the sane atheist that I am, the gothy rituals don't "scare" me at all and I just find them almost as laughable and ridiculous as where a bunch of frat boys stick their thumbs up each other asses (to bond)... I mean, I do find grown men performing rituals strange to say the least, but I know the rituals are really just about physiological mind-fuck "bonding". Anyway, I digress... it was the rules that pissed us off.
The rule that upset us is the fact that the highest law in the land for them is NOT the American law system. That's treason as far as I'm concerned.
You can go ahead and deny this, Masons. But, you and I both will know you are lying. And, as far the supposed Mason above who said they don't go out of their way to do business with each other, etc.? That's also complete, laughable bullshit. That's like saying frat boys avoid hooking each other up with their parents for jobs... it's half the reason some of the boys are in the frat in the first place... it's for the connections and money.
That said, are all Masons the same? No. But are they all under a treasonous premise of following a "law" that is "higher" than our American law system? Yes. And that sucks.
I just wish the Masons would quit being cowards and finally end the secrecy surrounding the organization and come out into the light and quit hiding like roaches.
If you can't find better ways to bond with your fellow man... that's just sad.
you don't think a little secrecy held in reserve is good insurance?
#44 posted by Takuan:
I actually respect the truly secret organizations "out there" that need to work in secret because they are subverting larger authority (imperialism, etc.). At least they don't go around trumpeting how moral and fantastic they are. They are too busy being down to fuckin' business and are some of the true selfless heroes of this world.
But, when the authorities (such as huge organizations like Freemasonry) cling to a secretive nature, it just holds the door wide open for corruption and cronyism.
How would you feel if the ACLU, Amnesty International, the EFF and other such organization became as secretive as the Masons and started slinking around in the dark? You know, just a little secrecy held in reserve for good insurance? Would you still trust their intentions? I would certainly hope not.
Compared to other issues, the Mason frankly bore me, but I'm not going to celebrate any authority who cherishes themselves above the law as they do.
I'm looking forward to when people with backbones stand up for themselves and no longer find the archaic need to embrace cronyism with a secret handshake, wink and nod.
I'm all for a meritocracy and this old, stanky shit finally dying off. Evolve.
I was raised when I was 21, following in my father and grandfather's footsteps, but quit participating soon after because of the atheist thing.
Well also I just really didn't care for the exclusion of women and the racial segregation of lodges that goes on.
It only took about a half dozen Demolay meetings for me to realize how truly bizarre this stuff was. Aside from dictating a weird regimental pagan/christian mishmash of woo on you, it requires you to memorize TONS of crap in order to work your way up the ladder. Even more nuts than conventional religions.
Cowie:
if the need arises, we take the existing "secret" organizations and turn them into real secret organizations from within. If someone is chuckling at your silly fez they overlook the dagger in your hand.
The above entry refers to the Boston Globe, when it should refer to the Boston Herald.
I didn't see it listed in the comments (up thru 49) so thought I'd mention the Jack Chick tract about the masons..
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp
AblestMage, that's AWESOME - finally we know the cause of suicide - it's witchcraft!
"His depression is gone and he's hungry as a bear!"
My very first slow dance. At a DeMolay dance. I had friends in DeMolay, but no interest in joining. Still a nice memory.
De molay thou art avenged!
I think we're all missing the real issue here. A drummer for a J. Geils cover band is described as 'punk'? What has the world come to?
Personally, I don't care to belong to any secret society that would accept me as a member.
I don't want to go off-topic, and I've no idea how US masons do things, but this is news to me.
Here in England all masons promise that they will do nothing that is contrary to "the ordinances of the realm" (i.e. the law), promising to act in strict conformity at all times with the laws of the country in which they reside; further, they promise to do nothing that conflicts with their "moral, civil or religious duty". So it's not just no illegal stuff, but also no immoral stuff (like cronyism).
Is it different in the US?
#32
what do johnny rotten or bad religion have to do with punk rock? i don't think i know anyone who's actually involved with any DIY scene who would even admit to enjoying the sex pistols.
cowicide:
I don't know where you got the idea that we value our rules over those of the law - or anything similar, but it's not true. In fact, one of the concepts we're taught first is that nothing in Masonry will conflict with your obligations to God, Family, or Country.
Masonry, at it's purest, is meant to be a continuous improvement plan for men who want to be better than they are.
BIG shout out to all my brother Masons reading Boing-Boing! So awesome to see you out there (mostly because I know so many of you have to be similar in age to me)
Lee Coursey
Junior Warden
Russellville, #17, GL of KY
I was about to post more or less exactly the same thing. It's too bad we've both been preemptively called liars!
Hey everybody, my boyfriend is one of the newest young punk members of Amicable, the lodge featured in the article above. Unfortunately he couldn't make it to the interview. I let him know that he and the guys made BoingBoing though, and I'll see about getting on here to dispel rumors and answer questions.
From my standpoint, I'd say the cries of discrimination against females are kind of ridiculous. Not only are there similar organizations for women if one wishes to join, but Freemason meetings are another form of guys' night out. Nothing sinister about it. Just dude enjoying the company of other dudes.
I joined DeMolay for the girls. The ritual was mostly psychodrama, intended to reinforce ideals of clean living, respect for others, and patriotism. In a conflict between your DeMolay afiliation and your country's needs, you were expected to put your country first. I'm not a Mason myself, but my father's lodge has a good mix of Caucasians, Hispanics, African-Americans, Christians, Jews, and best of all, has a Sikh Worshipful Master. The racial exclusion is not institutional to Masonry, but rather to the individual lodges.
And BTW, appointment to offices in De Molay is by vote, not by ability to memorize weird shit. (And frankly, a lot of the ritual is overly wordy.) The dances were fun though, as were the State Conclaves.
Hi! I am a member of Amicable Lodge, Cambridge MA, which was featured in the article. It's great to see my lodge up on this board. A lot of the guys are musicians (myself included)- current and former members of some pretty well known punk and rock bands - but there's also investment brokers, ministers, lawyers and retirees. Freemasonry is a fantastic level ground where tattooed rockers can dine with venture capitalists and not feel strange about it. I'm very proud to be a member and encourage anyone interested to check out www.freemasonry.org for information.
You know, it's still easier, and probably cheaper, to join the Church of "Bob". The only drawback is that you have to supply your own fez and tiny clown car. But who needs all that when you get your own flying saucer?
But are they all under a treasonous premise of following a "law" that is "higher" than our American law system...
Any Mason with an hour on the internet reads stuff like this all the time. Web sites, forums, even books all make many of these kinds of allegations. Interestingly, nobody ever has any proof to back them up - even those who claim to be (or have been) Masons themselves. One of the more well-known books a few years ago was authored by somebody who claimed to be a "high ranking" Mason, and it was later proved that he was lying. Most of the people who rant against the fraternity seem to have gotten their information from a mashup of Dan Brown novels and konspiracy theorist Youtube videos.
The Masonic rituals are really simple morality plays, containing allegory and symbolism pertaining to leading an ethical life. That's all.
Do some Masons use their fraternal connections to network for jobs and such? Of course - Masons are regular guys. But generally this is discouraged; in fact, some Masons are already members of other organizations in which networking is common, and they come to their Masonic lodge so they can relax and not have to deal with business matters.
To the actual topic at hand, though, I've been seeing a large percentage of younger (mid-20s) men joining the fraternity. It's a huge change from the last generation: I see some very cool tattoos, and many lodge buildings are now wi-fi hotspots. My own lodge has 9 officers, 7 of which are under 30, and most of them are MMOL or LARP gamers, Ren Faire geeks, and have a wide variety of interests.
The old attitudes that you can't talk about any of it outside the lodge has dissipated; these guys are proud to flash their Masonic bling and to talk about it with anyone who will listen.
Cowicide:
I must add to the comments by my brothers in the UK and US; Canada has the same rules: you abide by the laws of the country in which you reside.
Shuwadhi:
To clarify, it's not the Church of "Bob" but rather The Church of the SubGenius. I know a number of Freemasons who are also SubGenius ministers. It's definitely a good time but is limited to The Joke, and really doesn't serve the same purpose - it's much closer to Church of the Spaghetti Monster. Plus, it's ten years after X-Day and I'm still waiting for my spaceship! Great to see "Bob" on boingboing, btw!
#63 posted by Tom Accuosti:
Interestingly, nobody ever has any proof? Well then, let's finally set the record straight and show your proof please? Why don't we quit hiding in the shadows here and ditch those "old attitudes" you speak of and publish the "official rules" to the public? Surely, you've got nothing to hide by doing that, correct? Of course, you'll probably just go ahead and publish some low level B of C that any newbie Mason can access.
And.. despite the assurances of others here, I didn't read the rules from some novel and I'm not going around trying to quote Taxil here.. It was Masonic law straight from a source just outside of Washington, D.C. under the cirumstances I already clearly discussed in a previous post above... But, you're right... I don't have proof, I don't have the book in my own hands right now. I just know what I read and what I've experienced with Masons directly (especially in the D.C. area and I'll leave it at that). I dunno, all this talk has got me curious and I honestly will get back in contact with the guy who has the book and see what he's willing to do with it. No promises.
As far a racism goes, yes the Masons have come a long way along with the rest of America, but the sexist shit and cronyism (please don't insult our intelligence by saying that cronyism isn't propagated through Masonry) is very old and very tired.
And, a hardcore punk rock freemason is an oxymoron. Sorry, you guys just don't "get it" then. I mean, I can definitely see some trendy art punkers who don't understand the foundations of punk maybe being Masons though...... XD
I think Freemasonry served its purpose in the foundation of this country, etc. but now it's time to put it out to pasture. Like I said earlier, I'm looking forward to when people with backbones stand up for themselves and no longer find the archaic need to embrace cronyism with a secret handshake, wink and nod. I'm all for a meritocracy and this old, stanky shit finally dying off. Evolve.
I already know the programmed responses I'll get here, so we can just skip it and get into something really interesting now that we have a nice Masonic roundup here.
How do you guys feel about Skull & Bones? You like where they've taken our country so far, or no? Also, do you enjoy the incredibly increased levels of government secrecy we are now subject to under the current regime? Love to hear about that from some Masons. Do you despise the FOIA like they do?
I have noticed over the last 10 years the Masons have become more and more open, are you finally beginning to realize that large-scale organized secrecy just might not be the healthiest thing for a democracy any more? (and, yes.. to those who shudder at the "democracy" word... I know, I know... we are a republic here in the usa)
I don't think these questions are off-topic at all, BTW. After all, we are talking about... XD ... Punks in the Masons. Hello, Masonic Punk Rawkers... chime in? How does widespread, organized authoritarian secrecy and punk ethos fit together? Humor us.
Interestingly, this is exactly the kind of tactic that I see all the time from Masonophobes elsewhere on the net. It's a nice way to deflect potential responses, since you're already assuming that anything I - or anyone else - says will be a lie. Can't really have much of a discussion with those ground rules, you know?
But for the sake of anyone who's interested, Masonry is not a society for people interested in secret cronyism; there are a lot of other groups available which promote networking; anyone joining the Masons in order to improve his business contacts is going to be frustrated.
In fact, it's probably more correct to suggest that the kind of people who are interested in secret deals and cronyism are also the kind of people who are driven to join a number of different groups, the Masons being only one of them. I can think of several local politicians who are members of my lodge, but who never show up. Secret handshake or not, not much networking happening when you don't show up for 10 years. They do, however, also belong to the Elks, the Rotary, the Lions, and some of the local ethnic-based groups (Sons of Italy, for example.)
I don't understand why it's so difficult for some people to accept the truth - that most of the men who join the Freemasons do so because they are interested in a secular approach to improving themselves through moral teachings and allegories. In a lodge, you are surrounded by other men who tend to be honest, trustworthy, and concerned with doing the right thing; and they manage to get together without issues over politics or religion.
In my own lodge, it's amazing to see guys in their 20s hanging with guys in their 50s and 60s; in the fall they will get together to rake leaves or clean gutters for some of the guys in their 70s and 80s. Or they'll spend a day in a local community service program, anything from cleaning up winter debris in the hiking trails to running a clothing drive. Quite a bit different than the old-school fraternity that kept to themselves, maybe having a pancake breakfast once in a while.
The last 30 years have seen a huge decline in population, both from lack of interest in joining to the older members - literally - dying off. It's nice to see a resurgence, especially one in which the new members are interested in the more spiritual and esoteric side.
#66 posted by Tom Accuosti:
Yes, but who really set the ground rules here? It's no "tactic" on my part, it's no conspiracy... I honestly just don't trust large, secretive organizations.
That's the problem with you being a part of a secret (*cough*... esoteric) society, isn't it? It breeds mistrust in the first place. It's laughable how "shocked" you guys act when you find that people outside of your iron curtain just might not trust you. XD If I walk into a convenience store with a group of guys and whisper in secret in the corner with them, I'm sure I'll still get the stink eye from the clerk no matter what the hell I tell him at that point. In that case, I set a bad precedent by acting in a nefarious manner and I have to take personal responsibility for my actions or I'll just be forever confused and befuddled by that clerks evil eye upon me.
Also, don't you find your approach and that of some of the other Masons here a tad bit hypocritical? For example, making broad statements saying that basically all your detractors got their information from "some book" or "some website" pack full of lies and based on "no proof". Yet, if your organization would just finally bring down its iron curtain it would finally put most of these so-called baseless accusations to rest, wouldn't it? Bring down the wall, Mr. Grand Masters, bring down the wall. Ah, but then you wouldn't have your... mystery... would ya? XD
By the way, I'm not a Masonophobe. I don't fear the Masons and I certainly don't fear any of my family members that are Masons. I don't find the rituals scary... I was in a death metal band for a spell and we were so goth that we shit bats, my brother. Hell... skulls and altars and shit? I call that decor. And, as I said before, I understand the purpose of the Masons as far as the American Revolution goes and I've got much respect for that. But, at his point in history the secrecy shit is stale and archaic. It doesn't help anymore... it hurts you.
You also continuously ignore the fact that I didn't get my information from Barnes & Noble or the dreaded "internet". It was directly from a high ranking Mason. Hell, you might have very well had a few drinks with him before he died.
Anyway, couldn't we just simply eradicate all this bullshit by just finally switching out secrecy for openness?
Welp, let's sweep the ground rules aside for a bit... As far as secrecy goes what do you Masons think about this? Here we have one of the most secretive regimes in modern American history running our government, yet they just love peeping into our windows any chance they get. You can see where organized, authoritarian secrecy is hurting America, can't you?
Which secret societies are those? Skull & Bones, perhaps? Why don't you peep over that iron curtain for a spell and whisper your thoughts on them? I mean, I wouldn't want you to break the first rule of Fight Club or anything, but I'd sincerely love to hear your input on these guys.
Yes, that's nice. I think most people are very aware of the charitable things Men's Clubs do in general and that aspect has always been a very commendable and honorable thing. I actually dig the Lion's Club, personally, but...
I help out the elderly sometimes too, but I don't do it because they joined my secret club. Instead, they are in the much larger, much more open club called humanity.
I get nothing out of it except personal, private pride in myself, I suppose.. but that's how a lot of us stupid atheists work. I'm actually embarrassed even bringing it up here in relative anonymity, because I feel it only takes away from the honest gesture of doing things like that in the first place.
I don't feel the need to report my good deeds to a community or certainly not to my own boy's club (friends)... I just do it and leave it at that. Anyone who gives to charity and takes it out of their taxes and/or uses it to trumpet how great there are is an asshole in my book. Call me nuts, but I think charity that's not anonymous has less honor and honesty to it.
Speaking of honesty, I congratulate you on running a lodge that you claim actually frowns upon cronyism. Now maybe you can take the next step and ditch all the secrecy that breeds mistrust among your fellow man and elevate yourself to an even higher degree of human that transcends your secretive nature. I wish you luck on your journey.
Then again, I may be wrong.. if you've got REAL punkers with shaved heads and stuff joining maybe you guys are finally planning on blowing up all the banks. Now, that would be badass.
:::Yawn:::
Usonian,
If you have a point, make it.
Cowicide:
Here's the deal: we could lay everything out in the open, make it public, release it to the news media - and then what? When what you believe is there isn't released (because it doesn't exist, whatever your "it" is) you'll claim the secret 33rd Degree Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry is still hiding in the shadows, and we'll be left with a destroyed organization.
I think we'll keep on making good men even better and giggling that you think you've found the "real" truth.
Peace to you man. We're not the boogeymen. That's the Trilateral Commission. Or was it Bilderberg? If you believe that many people can keep that many secrets for that long then you can believe anything you want.
Lee Coursey
Russellville #17, GL of KY
#70 posted by leecoursey:
Destroyed organization? You mean like scattered cockroaches in the light?
No, here's the deal... you make the Masons sound like a badly written proprietary closed program that once opened to the public, they'll find all the flaws and reject it and you'll be left with a "destroyed organization". Then the public, of course, will move on to other more open source applications (organizations) that have been challenged and improved over time by peer reviewed consensus and contributions. Your closed, proprietary approach to organization won't survive as humans continue to evolve and demand more openness with each udder. You'll either change (become more open) or die off, it's inevitable.
The fact that you've had to become more open in recent years due to your declining membership should already be the writing on the wall for you.
Ah yes, only you know the real truth, that's right. Ok, fine... the book I read was "planted" by the deceased Mason just so he could trick and confuse his son even in the afterlife. I'll go with that. Anyway...
So giggling like little girls because no one knows your "real" secrets is the making of good men? No wonder you don't let women in on your meetings, they'd fuck up the whole program because they'd get tired of your childish nonsense and finally ask, "What's the point, boys?" and you'd might have to actually come up with an answer! Haha...
If the big secret of the Masons is that there IS no secret (giggle, giggle)... then quit strutting around like idiots in your windowless buildings and grow up. I don't think you guys are the boogeyman, I don't fear you.... I think you guys at this point in history are becoming a backwards, sad, archaic joke.
Did you copypasta that or come up with that tired, repeated stuff all by yourself? XD Your copypasta jedi mind tricks don't work on me, sorry. Now you want me to go off on a bunch of diatribes about UFOs and udder nonsense. Ain't gonna happen, sorry.
Well, the nice thing about your smarmy attitude and snooty nature is that it's a turnoff to those of us out here in the real world that would rather deal with honest, up-front organizations that aren't afraid of the public view and can handle honest public discourse. You know, superior organizations that don't collapse when you apply light to them.
Once again, if any of you Masons would like to have an intelligent conversation on the Skull & Bones and the issues that surround them, then please have at it. Or, you can just keep giggling in private like real men, I suppose.... and keep throwing that typical, mindless copypasta at me. It's up to you.
Cowie, wouldn't it better to be beating up republicans?
Sorry, Antinous. I am loathe to feed the troll, but since it's clear that there is no possible response to Cowicide that will not result in further ad hominem attacks and vague accusations of treason and skulduggery anyway, I will go ahead state that I am unimpressed by his preemptive "anyone who contradicts my claims is a liar" debate technique.
Cowicide accuses all American Freemasons of swearing unspecified treasonous oaths, based on unquoted passage in an unnamed, super-secret book belonging to an unnamed, "high-ranking" Mason in an unnamed location. Were I to suggest that it is impossible for anyone to prove that unnamed books and indeterminate criminal oaths do not exist, my guess is that the counter-argument would have something to do with my being a liar, a coward, a cockroach, engaging in high cronyism, with a straw-man about the Skull & Bones society thrown in for good measure.
#72 posted by Takuan:
You mean that udder secretive organization rampant with cronyism and worldwide distrust?
#73 posted by usonian:
Yes, my "technique" and abusive "tactic" of not trusting large, secretive organizations.
Sigh, life is so hard for secretive organizations. It seems no one wants to trust them unless they join them. How on Earth could we remedy this problem for them that we outsiders have caused?
Mason are victims, I tell you. For the love of gawd, please... someone... let's all rack our brains together and figure out a way they could build more trust among their fellow man.
I just can't think of any possible way...
Oh great, here we have another conspiracy theorist who just doesn't take my word on things. If you'd just worship the secret Cow Gawd with me in my secret basement lair, you'd understand just how silly your accusations are.
hah! "Bush, Musharraf, Ahmadinejad least trusted leaders". There's his "legacy"!
Wow. I'm offended on Musharraf's behalf.
Just to clarify, the Boston article was not specifically about Punk Rockers joining the Masons, it was musicians in general. Although the Punk scene was represented, bands like Dashboard Jesus and The Men are Rock/Metal bands. The organiztion is filled with many musicians from many different styles.