Los Angeles Metrolink abolishes the Fourth Amendment, begins bogus "random bag searches"
Wil Wheaton sez,
Starting this month, the Los AngelesMetroMetrolink will be infected with some super-neat security theater: random bag searches will inconvenience the new crop of MTA riders who are turning to Metro to escape high gas prices.The thing is, the searches will "randomly" target different stations, where signs will announce to everyone (except, presumably, illiterate terrorists) that they should go to a different station if they don't want to be searched.
Explain to me again how this makes us safer?
Update: Wil adds, " I made a mistake in my post at Blogging.la. The security theater is not coming to the MTA, which is our subway; it's coming to the Metrolink, which is our commuter rail. The idiocy of the thing still stands, but I regret my mistake and wanted to take responsibility for it as soon as it was pointed out to me." Link (Thanks, Wil!)
When this stuff happens in the lower, left quarter of the US, it's about immigration, no matter what excuse they give.
Safer? Pfffffffffffft. This was never about protecting the public, it is about training the populace to expect and accept intrusive government action as normal behavior.
We've had this idiocy in New York and New Jersey for a couple of years.
so who is waiting outside the station to grab the refusers?
Phew. Now I feel safer. Somebody won't set up us the bomb.
I made a mistake in my post at Blogging.la. The security theater is not coming to the MTA, which is our subway; it's coming to the Metrolink, which is our commuter rail.
The idiocy of the thing still stands, but I regret my mistake and wanted to take responsibility for it as soon as it was pointed out to me.
Ah, that makes more sense. I was going to make a snarky post about "What, you're telling me people ride the LA Metro? That I don't believe," but now I have no excuse. (Seriously, when it's cheaper for them to hand-check a random sample of the passengers for tickets than to install turnstiles, you know they're not getting a lot of customers.)
a minor point, the principle is what matters
@7 It's always been random hand-checks for the Skytrain in Vancouver, and I guarantee you there are a lot of customers for that.
Wil, it's time for your "freedom search". ;)
Just started taking the Orange Line myself, and I was surprised to find it's basically on the honor system. Buy ticket, get on board. If they check for bombs with the same frequency they check for tickets, you could set up a WMD pipeline from Woodland Hills to Noho for $1.25 one-way (presumably).
I'm surprised this is new. I frequently take the LIRR trains and the conductor never fails to remind the passengers that we are all subject to random searches by being on the train.
p.s. greetings to all the rich kids in Manhasset and Glen Head.
@9 The only checking they ever do on the Skytrain is to see if people have paid.
The NYCLU litigated against this in New York and lost.
http://tinyurl.com/644ubt
which #15 tells me its constitutional.
The MTA and NYC police have been doing this in NYC since shortly after 9/11. But here is the irony. They ONLY man stations that have active token booths and multiple turnstiles. If you go to a station that has just an entry turnstile or a station agent, no bag searches. It's ridiculous.
And as far as "big brother" goes, the newer Japanese made train cars in NYC play a pre-recorded message about being aware of your surroundings, being alert and—generally—being paranoid.
We're really this close to a true Blade Runner dystopian environment in NYC.
so you can't bring a bag on the train; wear a big coat with lots of pockets
Yeah, but guess what? Despite all of these efforts, NYC has MORE people (literally) crapping on NYC subway platforms than I ever remember back-in-the-day, and homeless folks with TONS of bags and junk are still riding the trains without issue.
Oh, and the WTC site is still a big hole in the ground 7 years later despite NYC having a massive real estate/construction boom.
Complete tangents but related. Please Obama, be our president already.
I was hoping it would eventually lead to a ban on coats - and eventually on clothing altogether.
Because what they have now with this is a de facto bag ban.
Almost time to put rocks in our shoes.
too ouchy,just tape your calves
I ran across a temporary 'bag search table' in Grand Central Thursday afternoon, a few cops with a folding cafeteria-style table with posterboard signs taped to the fencing. I happened to be carrying an overnight bag with some clothes, toiletries, adaptors for a couple different phones, and some little white sort-of tubular Cellboost battery packs. I was prepared for all sorts of grief, but they didn't actually seem to be checking anyone's bag. I made eye contact with one of the officers and smiled, and he gave me a sort of wan -half smile that seemed to say 'I can't believe I'm here either'
there should be a competition to see who can cram the most sex toys and porn into the most suspicious looking bag
Hehe Tak-kun. On that note, I'm half-keen keen to test the new anti-alcohol laws on the London Underground by carrying around and drinking from a screw-top wine bottle full of water...
(Of course, there's always booking you for "obstruction of justice", or something.)
Next up: Random home searches. Why not? To hell with the Constitution. Bend it until it breaks. We the people must be protected.
"The threat of terrorism is great and the consequences of unpreparedness may be catastrophic. It would be folly not to allow random home searches to take place." There, fixed it. - If you ever hear a judge say this, shoot him. It's your patriotic duty, isn't it?
Don't trust anyone over 25.
h qt dwn ppl. gv t 10 yrs nd y wnt vn cr. t tht tm y'll b cryng bt rndm hm srchs. thn y cn gv tht nthr 10 yrs nd nc gn.. wh crs? r bst bt t b hppy s t bcm kp r.. cp nd mk th cvlns fr r wrth.
there should be a competition to see who can cram the most sex toys and porn into the most suspicious looking bag
Yeah but then you'd never hold public office[1] and they'd like that. Don't do it, Takuan, we need you, now more than ever.
[1] Well, except in Berkeley.
I look forward to the day when we are all given our papers for inspection at any given time.
This is not America,
This is not...sha la la la la
A little piece of you
The little peace in me
Will die
[This is not a miracle]
For this is not America
-David Bowie
Whoa for a minute there I thought I had a vision of the LA metro being attacked by terrorists, then realized it was just a Verizon FIOS ad with flames appearing over this article.
Look at the flipside, people-- imagine what happens if someone hijacks a subway train and drives it off course into the side of a major office building.
@31: RealID. What is that if not "Papers, please?"
The goal is not security. The goal is to create Passive Man. These people would be much happier in Stalin's USSR or Mugabe's Zimbabwe, bunch of anti-patriotic fascists that they are.
This is just another useless means to provide a further illusion of safety and gradually erode our rights further.
In NYC this has been in place for awhile now. If you refuse to the search you have to leave the station.
I've been stopped 4 times so far and I have refused each time. At which point the befuddled police officer (I'm guessing people rarely assert their rights) tells me to leave.
I walk 2 minutes down the road to the next subway station and catch my train - rendering the whole exercise useless.
Looking at all the details, it is hard for me to NOT think this is an attempt to cow the populace into accepting harsher security measures in the future, as it truly (and obviously) does nothing to prevent terrorism-- they WARN potential terrorists that they will be searching!! HOW does that help?
"Well, I don't want to be late for work, so I'll just play along." And so they get their power grab.
And they say it's "random" huh? Get a willing victim who is dark-skinned and wearing a keffiyeh and an olive green army jacket, and carrying a cardboard box wrapped in brown paper (containing a heavy replica of the Statue of Liberty for ironic value), and then we'll see how "random" it really is. Meanwhile the little old lady carrying a concealed gun gets ignored.
"there should be a competition to see who can cram the most sex toys and porn into the most suspicious looking bag"
At L.A. Union Station that's probably not too uncommon. :P
Pupdog at 24 - we have the same sort of set up in London on the tube every now and again. Seems just to be done to raise the general tenor of paranoia and reinforce the message that we, the dumb populace, should never be tempted to question authority.
#25:
"there should be a competition to see who can cram the most sex toys and porn into the most suspicious looking bag"
I'm not far from Union Station, but despite being a typically modest person I'd gladly do that just for the laughs.
Imagine the look on the officer's face when they unzip the bag and discover 15 pounds of sex toys, 56 hours worth of appallingly unsanitary fetish porn DVD's, and a truly diverse selection of latex clothing.
After they stop laughing, you shake their hand, utter some pre-prepared message about how they shouldn't be doing what they're doing, then waggle your eyebrows suggestively and step onto the train.
Oh... and as an afterthought:
I seem to recall there being notices to the effect of there being random bag searches for a couple of years now.
It's always unsettled me to hear it but I've never seen anyone actually searched... which is enough to make you think you're pretty much never going to get searched, which hardly deters people from stashing 50 pounds of Comp. B or opium or counterfeit Hello Kitty submachine guns in their giant dirty duffel bag.
Unless, of course, they're wearing a long black trench coat and have a greasy handlebar mustache.
9/11 Changed everything! Yes we the people now know that terrorists no longer hijack, they kill so we now know the situation if we are ever faced with it.
For most of my adult life I have bought season tickets for football games, this is the first year I am not handing the NFL my money, why? I do not want to be subject to my rights being violated and being searched. Unfortunately you can’t use your purchasing power on public transportation.
It's exactly the same bullshit in NYC, as Avram pointed out. In addition, they seem to have launched an active anti-shopper campaign on the PATH train, which links NJ to NY. Now they don't just remind you that anything you're carrying can be searched, they actually "remind" you "not to carry bags or packages on PATH."
I'd really like to find a free country somewhere, but I think the world is pretty much fresh out. So I guess I'll have to stay here and fight the good fight as best I can.
there should be a competition to see who can cram the most sex toys and porn into the most suspicious looking bag
Like the cops would even figure out what this is.
a new taser?
Hey Kieran, is that some new islamic inspired rule?
Increases in security don't always have to be this stupid.
In the book "The Tipping Point", the author describe how they started cracking down on turnstile-hoppers in NYC. They found that most of them had warrants, and had an entire infrastructure set up for the resulting mass arrests. The drop in crime in New York City is often credited to stuff like this.
As far as I can tell, LA never did anything this smart to control its gangs. Every morning I listen to Adam Carolla's radio show, and he talks about how all the freeway signs are covered with graffiti, and how the cops are doing next to nothing to control gangs, but are equipping themselves with the latest state-of-the-art technology, both electronic and legislative, to collect as much money as possible for traffic violations. It makes me glad I live in Phoenix, where I've never been in a vehicle that's been pulled over.
We the Sheeple are being conditioned to accept the Police State. Slowly, but deliberately, we are being taught to accept less and less freedom, to ask fewer questions, and to accept fewer rights.
America is over.
Airpillo: ...counterfeit Hello Kitty submachine guns...
Win.
(and where do I get one?)
America is over.
Bullshit. And BTW thanks for twisting the knife. I guess you have your job to do.
Yes and no. Malcolm Gladwell makes a decent argument, but ignores the fact that the subway jumper crackdown was just part of a larger plan started under the Dinkins administration and then followed through during the Giuliani administration of simply cleaning up NYC in general.
the new policy is at the behest of the new small package delivery business recently opened by the nephew of (redacted)
4th amendment? what 4th amendment? we've had this outrageous violation for a few years in New York. You do NOT have to submit to the search, i never have. simply tell them no, turn around and walk out and back into another entrance. the minor inconvenience is worth keeping your rights where they belong.
Time for a revolution?
Go on then.
how does revolution begin?
http://home.apu.edu/~blamkin/BostonMassacre.jpg
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/core/pics/0255/img0006.jpg
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/french/liberty.jpg
It only takes a single spark to start a prairie fire.
Freedom and privacy have always been hellaciously inconvenient, and getting more so.
The more we can slow down our lives and avoid being sucked into the frenetic pace of this rocket-sled dystopia that passes for a 'culture,' the more privacy and freedom we can have. Using only cash, walking the extra block to avoid the bag search, not owning a cell phone, riding a bike when possible and things like that are doable if we prioritize freedom and privacy above living our lives like we're stuck running in little hamster wheels spinning at top speed going nowhere in particular. The less we want, the less we need to give up. It takes some getting used to, but then again so do anal probes. The choice is ours.
BTW: It's getting trickier, but you can still slip some cash to the right people and get a little corner to sleep in on some kinds of commercial ships (not cruise lines of course) for a trip across an ocean should that be necessary. Takes a long time and is inconvenient, but the privacy and freedom quotient is much higher. When returning or coming to the US that way however, find a ship going to Mexico then come in from there. You can even still walk right over the border in large stretches of Arizona for the ultimate in inconvenient privacy (don't believe the hype about border "security;" be sure to be polite to the people with 50 pound backpacks full of marijuana you meet on the way North). I would never say freedom and privacy were safe, just inconvenient.
Antinous
I was barely able to figure out what that is, specifically.
Mm, random bag searches. So what is the idea of this? That somehow, someway, they'd catch the one lone terrorist on the one day he plans to do it, on the one train he plans to explode? I'd almost accept mandatory searches more than this, because at least that's almost understandable. (Not really, but it has more backing.)
Reasonable Measures test:
Check One:
Would terrorists be deterred by this measure: (Yes)(No)
Does evidence suggest terrorists are interested in this location: (Yes)(No)
Do terrorists actually exist in enough numbers to make any measure like this necessary: (Yes)(No)
If you cannot say yes to all three, the 'security' measure cannot even be considered reasonable.
Freedom and privacy have always been hellaciously inconvenient, and getting more so.
Good comment. How come you don't have a blog listed on your profile page? You're a good writer.
Tenn-chan,
Where have you been for the last three days? If I don't hear from you, I worry that your mother's had you abducted and put in an Armageddon re-education camp.
what can random bag searches be a cover for?
what can random bag searches be a cover for?
It's INS. Everything in SoCal is INS. Traffic stops, ER visits, school registration. If I've seen a hundred traffic stops in Palm Springs, 99 of them have been Hispanic drivers. Immigration drives every aspect of life here.
You don't need freedom, this is America.
Where have you been for the last three days? If I don't hear from you, I worry that your mother's had you abducted and put in an Armageddon re-education camp.
Well, there was no re-education camp. There was grounding, and walking home four miles from the mall because I committed mortal sin, and seized phone and computer, but nothing so dire as those Bible Camps. (Though have I mentioned that there ARE camps she is interested in sending me off to? She's shown me. They are like boot camp, missionary camps which do good deeds in other nations. I saw only this part and was in support.
Then, cutscene. Once the kids are exhausted and have lost any defenses, the Group Worship.)
Appreciate the concern. If I'm ever sent off, I'll think of you, thinking of my possible, and actual incarceration.)
I am fairly certain that they have not yet built the Bible Camp that can contain you. Chuck Norris has nothing on you.
When are you going to be eighteen, anyway? At that point, you can just travel the US and Canada, crashing on our couches. Although I should point out that it's 112° at the moment.
Maybe I'll just be burned like Bruno.
In retrospect, that could be a catchy song. Or title. Or chapter in "Buddhists Handle Snakes Too."
Epilogue: Burned Like Bruno.
Freedom and privacy have always been hellaciously inconvenient
One of the main drivers and something that I've harped upon before, is the crush of too many people. Overcrowding by itself creates the social pressure to choose security over privacy. It's a difficult question to answer because there are legitimate concerns on both sides.
Time for a revolution?
We call them elections here. Not fast enough? Too bad. Violence will only provoke the state into a harsh reaction thereby negating everything would be revolutionaries claim they want. There is no quick fix. You want change, work for it. How many people here even know who their city council rep is? Have you spoken to your mayor? I have, one on one in a small group for about an hour with the mayor of Minneapolis. How many people have lobbied their state legislature? Again, I have, I lobbied several state senators in favor of housing legislation I was in favor of. This is not to brag, I'm no uber activist, but I pay attention, speak up on issues I care about and I vote. That's how things get changed. They don't get changed by people wringing their hands proclaiming "it's over, America is finished" that kind of defeatism actually hands victory over to your opponents.
As an aside, I am of course totally voting for Cthulhu. There's a platform I can believe in.
just twitter "arrested"
@Noen:
"...I am of course totally voting for Cthulhu."
Well, THERE'S your population-issue fix right there...
the faithful will be eaten last
Neon- NO, we don't call them elections here. Our founding fathers gave us the 2nd Amendment believing that it was possible, or even likely, that the Federal government they were founding would one day no longer be a government by, of and for the people.
Jefferson himself said:
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
A (s)election where we choose between two pre-vetted statists does not even fall close to being a revolution. I mean, OMFG, I get to choose 100 kinds of toothpaste at Mall-Wart, but only 2 possible courses for the nation governed more by ABCNBCFOX-n-C BS than by the will of the people.
... in which the plot of Little Brother comes true.
Next thing you know they will put liquids restrictions in place.
I thought the faithful were eaten first so they were spared the true horror?
Thebes, First, it's noen, it means "anyone" in Norwegian, I'm from Minnesota. Second, you aren't going to be rebelling against this military so forget about that NRA wet dream. Third, I was taught in civics, back when they had such things, that elections were the functional equivalent of a revolution. That is, in the past people suffered injustice after injustice until someone lost their head, literally. Government with it's laws and electoral process, is a compromise between the King and the rabble. If overthrowing the king is out because he now has F-20s and smart bombs then the only route to change is through peaceful means. If not then our future truly is that of a boot stomping on a human face forever.
Noen, sorry I got your name wrong, no slight was intended.
I suppose, however, that your civics teacher knew more about the founding of this nation- and of revolution, than Thomas Jefferson?
Also, a few percent of the population of this once great nation, armed with rifles, would never be defeated by smart bombs. Not only have the Iraqi's, Viet-Cong, and Afghani's proven that a nation of men armed with rifles CAN wage an effective guerrilla war against a technologically superior army; But also, I do not believe that the average enlisted man in our military would wage a war against their fellow Americans... I can see it of F-20 pilots and officers, but the average infantry-man would be as likely to frag his CO as obey orders to napalm his grandmother's hometown.
The true danger of endless tyranny will come if and when we have a one-world government. A Chinese soldier would probably torch a US town, and vise-versa. This is a technique Stalin used to put down rebellion during the darkness of his reign.
the only hope for a one world government is the Old Ones
The Faithful will be eaten last because it is their just desserts
OUCH!
OW!
go backwards then: "Give my big hearts to Maude, Ray, Dismember me for Herr Rolds choir"
OW! OW, SHIT!?! i bow, humbly.
Seriously, when it's cheaper for them to hand-check a random sample of the passengers for tickets than to install turnstiles, you know they're not getting a lot of customers.
The L.A. Metro (light rail & subway) system was designed this way from the beginning, though they're working on a plan to install turnstiles.
Ridership per mile in 6th in the U.S., right between Chicago and D.C.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership
@78 Noen, your name actually means "someone". "Anyone" would be "hvem som helst". I hope you still feel comfortable with your name despite the slight change in meaning. Speakers of Norwegian are scare in the grand scheme of things, so I wouldn't worry too much about it :)
On the notion of the sex-toy and porn packed decoy, I feel that the contents should include a latex cop uniform, some serious uniform fetish videos, and lots and lots of navy-blue buttplugs. And the carrier can just smile the whole time.
#46: Well, "Boris" (the popular epithet for London's new mayor) is half-Turkish, but I really doubt this is Islamic in its inspiration.
Or is that a troll ... ? ;)
Anyway, the law makes it illegal to drink in public on the Tube (and other public transport in London), despite it being perfectly legal just about everywhere else in the country. The reason given is that it will lower crime (less white trash drinking on the Tube/buses = less crime commited by white trash on the Tube/buses). Of course, people inclined to engage in criminal behaviour as a result of drinking will just drink before they get on. It's also really convenient for him, since it carries no direct infrastructural costs, but he can trumpet it as much as he likes.
Anyway, the fun thing was that somewhere around 20,000 people gathered for a gigantic party on the Circle Line on the last day of legal drinking. Remarkably, only a handful were arrested, and nobody died... It makes me happy to see that the British still have it in them.
Worth watching: "Boris is a wanker" compilation - this chant was particularly popular during the event. The best bit is the little old lady in the middle: "Well I think this is just wonderful, and I think Boris is a wanker, too."
As others have pointed out, this has been going on in New York since 2005. As has also been pointed out, you have the right to refuse to be searched, but you are then not allowed to enter the subway system.
What I've been asking for the past three years -- and have yet to receive a straight answer from ANYONE about -- is what would happen if I were to enter the system anyway, either right in front of the cops, or at the next subway station a few blocks away. They tell me that I'd be risking arrest, but no one, cops included, has been able to tell me what I'd be charged with. And the last time I checked the MTA's rules, which are helpfully posted online, there was nothing in there about being ejected from the system or not allowed to ride if I'd refused to be searched. (The rules tend to concern themselves with things like having valid fare media and not crapping on the platforms.)
Here's something I wrote on the NYC searches before the NYCLU litigated it; IANAL, but these searches seem to me to be unsupported by the law. I find Judge Berman's reasoning to be bizarre, consisting of his taking one side's word for it over the other's without apparently looking at Fourth Amendment jurisprudence.
What if they are explosive devices masked as sex-toys?
"Sir, I'm just not even going to touch your 47 dildos. You can pass ..."
There's got to be some specialist willing to try them all out- My vote goes to Asia Carrera!
#79 Thebes: I have to jump in here and say that violence just isn't the correct answer, as much as I'd like to throw in with the "NRA wet dream". That's not going to offer up as good of a end product as working within the system. Getting to know what's going on your local city council meetings, with your state legislation, voting during non-presidential election years in an informed way, and just generally working to get your voice or your group's voice heard will reap far better benefits at less cost than a bloody revolution.
I had to stress the getting involved in the election process. If you show up for the caucauses and there's less than a hundred people in a state of millions, there's something wrong. And if all the people that preached about change or ideals actually got out and voted, this country would be a very different place.
As far as random searches on public transportation goes, I currently work for the company that provides public transportation in my city. We have a "papers please!" badge reader at the main entrance that will snap the door shut in front of you if your badge isn't identified correctly. I watched the 3rd-in-command today climb over it (the doors are 3 feet tall) while the security guard was away from the desk while he muttered about how this shit wasn't going to keep us safe. It was hilarious and mildly reassuring that it's not just political/ business "outsiders" that think that these measures are stupid.
a predictable stage in this development of irrational paranoia into state policy is the emergence of the anarcho-surrealist terror-artist. As the absurdity and real world inconvenience becomes more pronounced, there will be those that choose to express opposition by acts that are borderline not-so-funny jokes verging on actively dangerous events.
Thebes @79
So you put the US soldiers in Iraq, and Blackwater in the US. Easy.
To avoid detection and searches, simply carry a visible roll of duct tape with you at all times and a US flag lapel pin. That will mark as not being a terrorist.
I sure do hope they don't find my pet rattlesnake, Bernard. He doesn't like to be found.
Seriously though, I am boycotting all locales that have these invasive, unconstitutional, policies.
As a buyer for a major corporation, I have not gone to shows in California, Jersey, and Chicago because my gun is not as welcome as my money.
Everything else I have to say sounds like sailor talk.
Yay sailor-talk!
-abs (ex-Navy sailor)
what kind of "buys" require a gun?
Freedom requires a gun.
Buys require money.
It's nonsense like this that makes me itch to start tucking outrageously perverted sex toys and unguents in my bag and then PRAY I'll be searched.
Since my perverse nature is concealed in a deceptively anglo "white bread" package I tend to be the "apology" search when my husband and I travel. I can almost hear the Airline security yelping "See? We pull aside blond, blue eyed people TOO!" whenever I and my luggage are diverted for groping and probing.
Can't wait to see the look on the Metro cop's face when they search my bag and find stuff that takes D batteries! ("That? Oh..I'm a sex educator. This IS the line for West Hollywood, you know. Here, want some brochures?")
"I'd really like to find a free country somewhere, but I think the world is pretty much fresh out. So I guess I'll have to stay here and fight the good fight as best I can."
Come to Canada friend! We are not entirely f*cked up... yet anyway...
dear grisly
guns are extra. If you need a gun,you are not free.
Dear Takuan,
I respectfully disagree. This is not a gun control debate so I will not take it there. I merely brought it up because it would be the thing found on me that would get me in trouble in those locales, LA in particular.
In America, our freedom is defined and defended with our firearms.
We are free because of willing brave people who take up heavy, ugly (sorry 1911), inanimate objects in defense of what is being taken away before our eyes.
Truly, peace be with you. Others have to walk a different path for your benefit.
Grisly out.
What if you get a free gun with your bank account? A free gun, for a free populace!
Agent 86
OK. I mean, I think that's been done, but OK. Are there many violent criminals with bank accounts? Probably not. Not a very stable job, violent criminal.
There's a Brady background check whenever you get a gun anyway. I would assume a bank would follow the law.
Sorry, I just had a wet dream about getting a gun at my bank...what were we talking about again?
I couldn't tell ya, I was too busy fantasizing about robbing a bank with their own guns.
how about a new standing thread? Guns, abortion, any suggestions? We could put it all in one pile and wade in (or out) as the mood takes us without tainting other threads. All truly immovable topics under one glorious roof?
Seriously, this one gets harder to find every day...