Busy Hanoi intersection has no traffic lights

Scott Beale says: "v!Nc3sl4s created a really cool time-lapse video showing the harmonious nighttime traffic flow in Hanoi at an intersection without any traffic lights." Link

[#1 posted by GeekMan, June 10, 2008 9:31 AM]

Traffic signals are a tool of imperialist oppression.

[#2 posted by Enochrewt, June 10, 2008 9:34 AM]

Holy Cow! I wonder what the accident statistics for that intersection are. I'm not sure if it's safer because everyone knows there are no traffic lights and that they have to be careful, or if human carelessness prevails and it's an very accident-ridden intersection.

All I know is this wouldn't fly on American streets, we have trouble with the simple concept of the roundabout. I even saw one or two cars making unnecessary loops through the traffic.

[#3 posted by Baldhead, June 10, 2008 9:35 AM]

I wish the video showed ita real time, instead of either sped up or slow mo. and audio for all the cursing that no doubt happens :)

[#4 posted by SamSam, June 10, 2008 9:42 AM]

Wow, very interesting. I'd also be interested in knowing the accident statistics. I have a friend who designs intersections and complicated traffic areas, and his general strategy is to remove as many extra signs, lights and paint as possible. He believes that his ideals intersection would have nothing at all -- just like this one -- because if people were actually using their brains instead of blindly following rules there would be a lot fewer accidents.

This would be an excellent case-study to see if that's actually true.

Of course, you couldn't just have one intersection like this in London or in New York -- no one would have any idea what the hell was going on. But if the majority of intersections were like this..?

[#5 posted by misscatofmontrealfame, June 10, 2008 9:58 AM]

Gah! I just broke into a cold sweat. I was in Vietnam a few months ago, my first trip to Asia, and one of the first things I did was cross that very intersection to get to beautiful Hoan Kiem lake which is right across from it. After much panic I succeeded by observing how locals did it and essentially following them until I reached the other side safely. There really is a chaotic order on Vietnamese roads... vehicles rule the road and the beep of your horn is the cue for other people to get out of the way. It seems to work intuitively for them. That said I did see quite a few accident scenes with motorbikes.

[#6 posted by dragisak, June 10, 2008 10:05 AM]

This is also called "Verkeersbordvrij" (anybody know how to pronounce this ?) meaning "free of traffic signs" in Dutch. An experiment done by several European countries to regulate traffic by "built environment of the public space" rather than by conventional traffic control devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

[#7 posted by umgrego2, June 10, 2008 10:05 AM]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are fewer accidents at this intersection compared to one of a similar size with traffic controls. I agree that if people are forced to actually think they act in a safer manner. It's too easy to blindly proceed through an intersection when there's a green light and not check for someone careening through a red light in the other direction. Sure, you had the right of way but you're still suffering the results of the accident.

Also, I think it's worth noting that traffic really gets slowed in the video when the concentration of four-wheeled vehicles increases. Two-wheelers put you in tune with the traffic, conditions, etc. When you're driving a four-wheeled enclosed vehicle, you lose touch a little bit.

I also think that the anonymity of a closed vehicle promotes road rage, selfishness and generally unsafe driving.

[#8 posted by Drowse, June 10, 2008 10:18 AM]

NPR had someone on yesterday discussing eliminating stop lights & signs in America to increase fuel mileage.

What do we replace them with? Roundabouts.

It seems to make sense, its sort of why highway interchange clovers were designed, to keep drivers moving through an intersection instead of stopping.

I just don't see American drivers being very open to it.

[#9 posted by arkizzle / Moderator, June 10, 2008 10:23 AM]

Drowse, there is definitely a policy of ncreasing roundabouts in UK and Ireland, it works pretty well.
Why would Americans not go for it?

[#10 posted by dragonfrog, June 10, 2008 10:27 AM]

There are several smaller cities in Europe that have removed all traffic signs entirely - signs, lights, paint lines, sidewalks, everything.

The interesting effect is that it reduces serious traffic accidents by a huge margin. Apparently a paradoxical effect of having all these traffic signs is that drivers assume that everyone else will follow the rules, and that the rules were laid out sensibly., and drive according to the signs, not to what others are actually doing on the road. By making driving seem "safe", we encourage drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians to act as though it was; the result is that they drive carelessly.

Removing the signs forces everyone to acknowledge the true danger of the situation - that they and everyone else are piloting several tonnes of metal around, completely dependent on fallible human attention, reactions, and engineering. Acknowledging this, they are forced to cooperate to get home safely, with the result that they are much safer than those who think they are safe.

Has anyone here ever been to one of these towns? I'd be very curious to hear about it.

Some more info on these projects is at
http://www.ukip.org/ukip/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=458&Itemid=68
and
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html

[#11 posted by dragonfrog, June 10, 2008 10:32 AM]

Ah, here we go - the Wikipedia rundown on the concept and any well-known implementations of it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

[#12 posted by Ryan Waddell, June 10, 2008 10:47 AM]

Arkizzle (#9) - I found that the number of roundabouts in Ireland was actually DECREASING, at least in Dublin, while I lived there (2005-2007). Or if not actually decreasing, they were being turned into light-controlled roundabouts, which weren't really all that efficient IMO. But those ones that were light controlled, if they didn't have traffic lights, you would NEVER be able to get onto them because the flow of traffic from other directions was so massive.

[#13 posted by Enochrewt, June 10, 2008 10:53 AM]

#9 Arkizzle: Because American's are stupid. (I'm American). I live in a city that has roundabouts in some of the suburbs, as well as in Boulder, CO and Vail, CO nearby. People here just don't get it, and it's not just because these roundabouts are new, in most cases they're 5-15 years old. We find something intrinsically wrong with having to yield to vehicles even if we're just going straight down the road. That's the only way I can describe it. Cooperating
with strangers for the betterment of both seems to be a foreign concept here.

Personally I like how they drive in Boston, if you make eye contact with the driver/pedestrian that wants to make a "traffic move" you have to yield to them. No eye contact, no go.

[#14 posted by Tsuyoi, June 10, 2008 10:54 AM]

I've thought about this a bit since my travels have taken me all over. In particular my interest has been on the cultural difference between the US and countries in Latin America.

To me it appears that in the US most laws are aimed towards safety. Often achieved by the over-use of regulations and signals. St. Louis' love of the stop sign is an example of this. The effect is to make things predictable. Even the general lawlessness of drivers is fairly well predicted; like the expectation that everyone will speed some and won't make complete stops at stop signs.

By law, the pedestrians and bicyclists have the greatest protections. And from my experience we get away with a lot more here on foot and on bike than you would in most countries.

In countries in Latin America my experience is that the car is king. What laws there are aren't enforced well so there's much less predictability. Although seemingly chaotic to my western eyes, people are able to get where they are going. Often in more efficient manners than we do in the US. But woe to the pedestrian that's in the street when someone driving a car believes they have the right of way.

My time on the road in Asia has been limited because of the saturation of public transportation in the areas I've visited. But the video does remind me of intersections I've seen. Hong Kong, for instance, reminded me a lot of Latin America except the cars would drive within inches of each other instead of feet.

It makes me wonder as our gas prices go higher and higher if in the US we'll be willing to trade in safety (through predictability) to make our commutes more efficient?

[#15 posted by KurtMac, June 10, 2008 10:59 AM]

I love the small silver car at the 1:01 mark that does a complete 360 in a circle and ends up going in nearly the opposite direction.

This would never work in the US. The intersection would get clogged by SUVs, semi-trucks and buses. Like others have said, I think the advantage here is that the majority of vehicles are small motorcycles. Hell, those things get, like, 80mpg, maybe I should start thinking of getting one.

[#16 posted by FarmerOnMars, June 10, 2008 10:59 AM]

The video soundtrack covers up the *continual honking* that is an intrinsic part of such traffic negotiations...

[#17 posted by trr, June 10, 2008 11:02 AM]

I like roundabouts/rotaries. My wife hates them.

We were in Ethiopia and even in Addis there are very few traffic signals and few of those that exist actually work. Not to mention a lot of roads have barriers so you can't make a left turn onto a road. You have to make a right and go to the nearest break in the barrier then make a u-turn, so there are lots of people waiting to make u-turns all over the place. Still, I think I only saw one accident involving more than one vehicle there and I really didn't see it to know what happened.

[#18 posted by trr, June 10, 2008 11:05 AM]

Oh, and the attitude of Americans (I am one) would make it difficult to have the kind of traffic flow in a roundabout like we saw in Addis Ababa. Vehicles there get real close to each other as they push through the traffic in the roundabout. Americans value their cars and personal space too much to tolerate that kind of proximity.

[#19 posted by solstice2005, June 10, 2008 11:15 AM]

This is the intersection at the top of Cau Ga in Hoa Kien District. I have spent many evenings watching the fascinating traffic patterns from one of the terraces in the bars, filming and never seeing any accidents. One of the most fascinating thing is to see pedestrians or couples leisurely strolling through it all.

[#20 posted by atomix, June 10, 2008 11:56 AM]

Here in Wisconsin our DOT is going Roundabout-Crazy! We've gotten like 15 of them in the last 5 years, including a multilane roundabout installed and more in the works.

Even though some people are so stupid about how they use them, they still save lives because everyone enters them at

[#21 posted by Knife Knut, June 10, 2008 12:13 PM]

Atomix was typing on his laptop in whilst sitting in the passenger seat when another motorist ignored the roundabout, drove straight through the intersection and hit the car he was riding in.

[#22 posted by DanL, June 10, 2008 12:43 PM]

Another thing to keep in mind about these kind of intersections (at least in Vietnam) is that the traffic is flowing at an average of 5 - 10mph... which is what lets it work. It is probably due to the majority of vehicles that are either pedal powered or 2 wheeled (scooters).

If this intersection were in the States or another western country, the traffic would no doubt be going a bit faster and thus the pedestrians (especially) would have no chance.

I had a great time there and didn't mind the traffic at all - my wife, on the other hand, just couldn't adapt and had to be dragged across the road (in a nice way :^)

[#23 posted by manicbassman, June 10, 2008 12:48 PM]

oh dear deity... I thought driving in Jo'burg was scary...

[#24 posted by Keneke, June 10, 2008 1:09 PM]

In relation to this, you might want to see my Flickr set of Vietnam pics from my visit last year:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14359698@N07/sets/72157602753890945/

It was an amazing vacation.

[#25 posted by Enochrewt, June 10, 2008 2:29 PM]

#324 Keneke: It looks like a great vacation. Michelin had a deal with the VC eh?

And the reclining budda made me think of Sagat's stage from SFII Link

Thanks for sharing them.

[#26 posted by Luke1972, June 10, 2008 2:39 PM]

I drove through an area with a powercut at the weekend just gone and all the traffic lights were out. It was the middle of a Saturday so very busy and it was the smoothest and fastest time I've ever passed through there. Seems with no lights people think and look more so traffic flows better.

[#27 posted by Keith Talent, June 10, 2008 3:08 PM]

On Friday nights that intersection becomes the centre of Hanoi's scooter/youth culture. And yet traffic still navigates through with 10,000 kids in the intersection.

And the fanciest KFC in the world is just out of frame on the left.

[#28 posted by emic, June 10, 2008 4:50 PM]

traffic lights often get ignored in the hanoi intersections that do have them. the bikers don't wear helmets so they can hear the honks around them - they're driving with their ears as well as their eyes.

terrifying at first, until you realise everyone is paying attention. so to cross a road, you just slowly step in to the traffic... waaaah

[#29 posted by napdaddy, June 10, 2008 4:57 PM]

#9 arkizzle: Roundabouts? People can't even understand how to properly merge onto an expressway. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that you need to be traveling at the same rate of speed as the traffic you're merging with.

[#30 posted by egregious philbin, June 10, 2008 6:04 PM]

I stayed just about a 2 minute walk from that intersection in Dec.

It looks scary, but all you have to do is just walk out and the traffic avoids you.

Scary at first, but you get the hang of it after a while.

Things just flow in Vietnam, if you think about it, it is scary.

[#31 posted by Lloydville, June 10, 2008 6:42 PM]

Low-tech traffic systems (poorly maintained road surfaces, lack of lane markings, signs and lights) can be safer than high-tech systems, since they require greater attention to the behavior of other drivers. In high-tech systems, drivers "consume" the extra safety advantages and use them to drive more inattentively -- while talking on a cell phone, for example. This is a phenomenon called "risk homeostasis" and explains why it may be safer to drive in Baja California than in Alta California.

[#32 posted by leonjacobs, June 10, 2008 8:24 PM]

I was in Hanoi last week.
Yes, the rule of the road is controlled by The Force. You trust it to cross the road.
To cross it whilst pushing your offspring in a stroller, requires massive brass ones.

[#33 posted by Baldhead, June 10, 2008 8:38 PM]

I noticed the smae as what many are describing in Russia... lights and signs are all over the place (in St. Petersburg anyway) but are treated as more of a suggestion than a rule.

And here in Vancouver, we have many small interesections with roundabouts- the number of people who can't even figure out that you go counter clockwise around them (even with a sign telling you this) is astonishing.

[#34 posted by crispernaki, June 10, 2008 10:01 PM]

Roundabouts? Started to hate then while living in NJ, and don't even mention the jughandles or right hand turn lanes...!

Sorry, I vowed long ago to stop complaining about the East Coast.

I'll take the Michigan Left any day.

While in Chile, I noticed folks who are waiting for traffic to clear when making a left turn pull over to the right side of the street. Do drivers do this in other places?

[#35 posted by Takuan, June 10, 2008 10:19 PM]

it's simple: never make eye contact

[#36 posted by MJI68, June 11, 2008 1:45 AM]

Having lived in Hanoi in '96 for a year - this was a fabulous peek at what it's like, as I am ashamed to say I haven't been back since then.

The poetry of how traffic merged at intersections throughout Hanoi, with no traffic lights, is still something I vividly remember.

On my bike it was a case of just keeping a fairly straight line with no sudden turns, and the waves of other cycles and scooters would part, red sea like!

[#37 posted by elNico, June 11, 2008 2:09 AM]

Ahhhh....I love it!! Every time I go to Thailand or Vietnam I can't wait to get on a scooter. It's got such a nice flow to it and gets really relaxing - the video does actually capture that very well, rather than showing an unrealistic distortion.

Interesting thing is that many Westerners seem to adapt quite well, but you get back home and it's all back to rigidity.

And I completely agree with some of the comments here in regards to crossing the road...you really just have to go...the less you look the better - they really are good at flowing around you. You'd have to do a lot of filming to capture something resembling road rage.

[#38 posted by arkizzle / Moderator, June 11, 2008 4:35 PM]

Ryan (#12)

Did you check out around Dundrum, where the shopping-centre development was? Roundabout city! And definitely since the 90's, lots of them.

Also, in both the UK and Ireland, they have started putting mini-roundabouts in the intersections of built up housing estates and business parks. Kind of 6ft diameter slightly-raised disks in the middle of the intersection, forcing you to curve through the cross roads.

Mini Roundabout 1
Mini Roundabout 2
Mini Roundabout 3

[#39 posted by Anonymous, June 13, 2008 11:11 AM]

I have also been to this intersection and I must say it feels surprisingly safe once you get over the chaos of the scene.

The thing to remember as a pedestrian in this system is that you should not try and avoid the speeding vehicles (they will avoid you). This is really hard to do for Americans at first, but once you let go you feel totally safe.

[#40 posted by Anonymous, June 19, 2009 2:06 PM]

As I recall, there is a "rotary" in the center of this intersection - off to the right and off screen in the starting and subsequent shots. Clearly the Vietnamese are not "encumbered" by western traffic sensibilities. Usually things work because people tend to drive slowly and watch out for the other drivers (I think if you hit someone you are responsible, so they generally drive appropriately so that they don't normally hit someone - but heaven help you if you are out there and don't know that key "rule of the road"). The traffic is deadly however. Even at the intersections WITH lights!