Simon says: "James Gurney, who's famous for his Dinotopia books and his science fiction art, has begun letting in Jehovah's Witnesses who come to his door as long as they pose for his portrait sketches." Link
heartwarming, I often feel sorry for these as I watch them trudge from angry door to slamming door. Then I remember how they advocate killing children by denying them medical care and also practice extreme social cruelty among themselves by shunning any (even to the point of suicide) who dispute the totalitarianism of their "faith".
Takuan-
Does anything you wrote mitigate the gracious kindness of Mr. Gurney sitting down and sharing his home with them? This speaks alot more about defying social mores of "being bothered" by people at your door than it does about the JW religion. Mr. Gurney's social experiment in kindness is an inherent good to me.
I had some JWs come to my door today. I politely told them "I'm not interested", and when they continued their pitch, I politely said "I'm not interested" again, and they left.
I learned long ago never to bother with people that are satisfied in their delusions. They won't hear whatever I say, they won't understand it, and they will interpret whatever I say or do in light of their delusions. What this artist did was cute & all, but pointless, except to amuse the artist. The JWs didn't learn anything from it, it didn't change them, it didn't lessen their grip on their semi-cultic delusions.
I let some cute Mormons in one time when I was bored and there was nothing on TV. It wasn't awful. They wanted to pray with me and share their religion. I debated with them for awhile and we tacitly agreed (in my opinion) that neither of us would bend to the other's religion, but we most certainly saw the other's point of view. It was an interesting hour, plus I got a free Book of Mormon out of the deal.
@lil,
Pointless? Did you read the article, or Gurney's original post? And in your language I detect some hostility... Read the article(s), then you'll see it wasn't about trying to change their minds, or a clash of beliefs. It is more about how one artist delt with a fellow person coming to his door.
with respect, this is more than just a cute story.
Ok, I'm off to look for kitten photos.
@ Cyenobite- Yes, you have a point. But, how did the encounter better the lives of the JWs? It gave everybody some warm fuzzies, sure. It made everybody happy. If one subscribes to the viewpoint that all religious paths are equal, then certainly, it was enough. According to that view, just to hand out some warm fuzzies and teach people to be nice is plenty good enough in this life. No, it wasn't about changing anybody.
But, if you ascribe to the view that all religious paths are NOT equal in the sight of God, then you would likely look on the JW doctrine as cultish and dangerous. In that case, it would certainly be doing the JWs a disservice to validate their beliefs with tacit approval and acceptance. So, that is why I said what the artist did was pointless- it did not change the JWs, only handed out warm fuzzies and subconsciously promoted the concept that all religious paths are equal to God, and thereby lend tacit approval to their beliefs.
if you look at the photo on Gurney's blog, you'll notice they didn't actually make it into the house: they're sitting on the porch. and having a fine old time of it.
my brother - a staunch and loud-mouthed atheist - has a grand old time talking scripture with the JW's when they come to his house. he uses passages to support his side of things, they use it for theirs. neither will win the other over, but they enjoy being human and humane with one another.
The story was pretty cool, and would welcome someone to draw me while I am at the door .. my ugly mug might frighten some children though.
Takuan,
I would like to hear how we advocate the "killing of children" by refusing certain medical procedures. I would imagine that you are talking about how we refuse to take blood.
It might benefit you to read a bit on bloodless surgery. It's gaining wide acceptance in the medical community as the safer way to do surgery. The recovery times are decreased dramatically, the risk of contracting other diseases is gone and more.
subconsciously promoted the concept that all religious paths are equal to God
Yes. He did the perfect thing. He treated their beliefs with respect. He showed them by example. Apparently you feel that he should have tried to convert them to whatever his belief system is. That would make him exactly like them. Arguing religion with strangers: what a great way to create positive change in the world.
Peace Of The Waterhole be upon ye, Sri Sutherland.
If you wish to join to combat, so be it, but understand I take no prisoners and frequently eat the wounded.
It was "the perfect thing" according to YOUR belief system. According to MY belief system, it was not. So, is my belief threatening to you in some way?
And actually I do not advocate "arguing religion with strangers." Unless it is a mutually agreed-upon, civilized debate/discussion, then there is no point. That is why I, myself, ignore JWs that come to my door, remember?
lwys fnd t msng t fnd flks sch s yrslf tht prch tlrnc f ll rlgs pths- NTL thy mt wth rlgn thy fl s "ntlrnt." Thn, thr wn tlrnc qckly cms t n nd.
Your comment is, as usual, hostile, trollish and based on a warped reading of my comment. I recommend that other commenters ignore you until you wander off.
Actually I have no idea what you are talking about, Antinous. I thought it was a very clear, straightforward response. I don't see how I'm being hostile- I have nothing against you, Antinous. But I see how you (Antinous) are being hostile, and most definitely not tolerant of a religious path that differs from your own.
All I'm saying is that there are two viewpoints here- 1) all paths are equal, (the artist's response) 2) all paths are not equal. If one path is wrong, then it would not be helpful or kind to the person on the wrong path, to make as if their path was NOT wrong. In that view, to merely hand out warm fuzzies to the person on the wrong path is pointless at best, and misleading and detrimental to them at worst.
Why should you get so worked up over my believing that a given path is wrong? Am I hurting anybody? You're just picking and choosing what criteria you believe constitutes the "right" path yourself, and practicing your own form of intolerance.
I have not called anyone names here, I have not been rude to anyone here. I have not been a troll. I think Antinous is very worked up over it, because I have exposed the flaw in his reasoning.
Whilst Honeymooning in Canada, we stayed with some of my Wife's Jehova's Witness cousins for a few nights. Being extremely irreverant, I was somewhat apprehensive.
They were awesome folks, took us to our first Ice Hockey Match and plied us with beer, and the subject of religion never came up once.
This is a very typical bit of JW redirection. At its core, the JW refusal of blood transfusions is based entirely on faith, not on science (as their own "Blood Brochure" is very specific about). Bloodless surgery as a *preference* may be more popular than it once was, but that is not the issue at hand. The *doctrine* and practice of letting someone die rather than allow the use of blood in life-threatening situations is the real issue. And at its core is the blind adherence to the dictates of an organization of men. The "blood issue" is the JW's Jonestown Kool-Aid. It is their baseless test of loyalty to their Society. Despite the fact that it makes little sense to a silent majority of them anymore, they think it proves their faithfulness to "God's organization". People who die refusing blood, or who let their children die, are considered heroes.
"Apparently you feel that he should have tried to convert them to whatever his belief system is. That would make him exactly like them. Arguing religion with strangers: what a great way to create positive change in the world."
I talk to any religious people that come to my door because I'm open-minded and curious about other peoples' beliefs. That having been said, I've never had any JW's try to "convert" me and I've certainly never heard them argue with me or anyone else. They typically offer to share religious info and leave the decision whether or not to listen up to me. No big deal.
I've never heard anyone that died for refusal of blood called a hero.
You say it makes little to no sense to the majority of Witnesses, so that means that you are able to read the hearts and the minds of people.
You are very gifted, indeed! (please note my sarcasm).
My refusal of blood, as well as others, is not baseless by any means. I have studied the Bible and believe that blood is sacred to God, and the misuse of such goes against His will. However, no matter what I say I believe, not because SOMEONE told me to believe it, but because I studied the matter and came to a conclusion, you will just spin it to say I am brainwashed, etc. I've heard it a million times, and the excuses never change.
I'm not here to argue or try to convince someone who does not want to see things from another perspective. You see things as black and white, as well all do, but we all see black and white in different shades.
when the J.W's came to my door, i openned it wide and let them in, saying:"make youselves at home, i'll go get some iced tea." they graciously accepted, walked three paces into the room, saw my skull collection, and my airbrush paintings, and i never saw or heard from them again. several years earlier ( when i was in college and not as 'nice'), a family of J.W.s banged incessently on my door at 8 o'clock in the freekin mornin. when i answered the door ( obviously hung-over from the night before ), instead of appologising and going on their way, they started up with " Did you know that Jesus Christ is alive, and living with us at this very moment?" i said" yeah,he's in the next room over, and he gets really pissed off when unfeeling cretins wake him up at 8 o'clock in the freekin morning!" the look of sheer befuddled-terror on thier faces was in fact priceless.
that's the nice face of them. Had a lesbian friend who politely explained why they would have no sale at her house. The next day she discovered these "emissaries of Jeebus" had knocked on every other door in her apartment building and made sure every other tenant knew who and what their neighbour was.
And then there was the more recent friend; he couldn't get a girl. Tried everything and was looking at Russian mail order brides. Last I heard, the Witnesses came though for him - so long as he converted.
I heard about some people ("Aquarians," they were called then...now we'd call them neoPagans) back in the 60s who did something similar, MinTPhresh. The JW's who lived upstairs from them stopped by EVERY WEEK on their way out to do rounds.
Eventually the Aquarians got tired of this, so one of them dressed in a horned helmet and a scawy cloak, and banged on THEIR door at o-God-o'clock in the morning. "Do you know Odin?" he asked when they blearily opened the door. "Well, All-Father hung on the tree for nine days and nights to bring you the Runes of Knowledge, and I think you should know about it!"
By the way, the JWs have fought some religious freedom cases that have benefitted everyone. For example, kids can't be legally compelled to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school because of them. (Of course they can still be illegally compelled, but that's not the JWs' fault.)
I usually find your posts quite clever and enjoyable, but you seem to be unduly hostile toward JSutherland, who has been nothing but polite in this exchange.
No idea what www.lambsroar.org is. Never heard of it, and as far as anything is concerned, watchtower.org and jw-media.org are the only official sites "we" produce.
As far as the other links go, I have no clue if any of that is true or not. I personally, have never heard first hand of anyone being abused in any manner. However, Jehovah's Witnesses are everyday ordinary people, and can make mistakes and get into trouble just like any other human being. We do not harbor or protect any individual who willingly commits an act such as that, as it goes DIRECTLY against what the Bible teaches.
As far as those who say we harbor people who abuse others sexually, they also seem to get in an uproar because we disfellowship (excommunicate) members who are not repentant. As far as I see it, people are going to complain about anything and everything regardless of what is done.
We obey the laws as long as they do not go against the laws that God sets out. The Bible says that man-made governments are put in their relative positions of authority by God to keep some form of law/order until God's kingdom is setup. The Bible does not teach toleration of such things like sexual abuse, so we have no toleration of such either.
My dad tells the wonderful story of how he once converted a visiting Jehovah's Witness.
My dad's undergrad degree was mostly focused on Christian theology, so he was very familiar with the more popular modern translations and had also learned to read the Greek and Hebrew texts. His student digs were on the circuit regularly visited by a lone Witness who made the rounds of students year in, year out. Until finally, the knock arrived at my dad's door.
The story runs that my dad invited the chap inside, made a pot of tea and sat down to discuss religion; the Witness with his King James, my dad with several modern editions and his Greek, Hebrew and annotated texts.
To cut a four-hour long story short, the Witness - having conceded a lot of points during the discussion - left rather shakily. His visits stopped and he wasn't seen again by the students for some months, until he was spotted rather nervously taking communion in an anglican church.
==
I won't weigh in to the JW debate because my experiences have been very mixed. The witnesses who visited my student home were lovely people, much nicer than the Anglican "Christian Union" types I met on my campus. Unfortunately, another pair of Witnesses I met condemned my dad as a "man of blood" because he'd occasionally stood in as a minister for the local RAF base. I was similarly condemned for being his son. I also spent a summer working with a former Witness who, as an 18 year old, had developed a gambling addiction. By his account he was cast out of his community as a sinner, chucked out of his home and had been left to his own devices since.
So my money is on JWs being like any other religion I've encountered: a mixture of good, average and bad people all claiming that God inspired their good acts and endorses their bad ones.
I`ve always found that even if I`m not particularly interested in converting - all of the JWs who come to my door are very nice people.
While I don`t have have any plans to take part in their religion, I do find it inspiring in a way that they dedicate part of their lives to something they so strongly believe in. Back when I was in high school, I simply could not believe that they were really the mission work because they wanted too - but rather that they must have been forced in to it by parents, etc. Then I befriended a JW guy, and found that he really did believe from the depths of his heart everything he was preaching.
I was a bit jealous. I wish I could have that much faith in something. Even after it was absolutely clear that I wasn`t interested at all, he would stop by as a friend, leaving religion out of the conversation (unless asked by someone).
I`m still always very nice to those who come by these days (yes, they even come around in Japan). While they have no chance of converting me, I feel they deserve my respect. A good person is a good person in my book, just as a bad is a bad.
so $scientologists have never heard of Xenu - or are selectively deaf in that matter,and JWs have never heard of the damage their cult does to the weak and unwary in terms of psychological harm. The "Lambs Roar" site you so disingenuously disown is for survivors of religious sexual abuse. JW is mentioned there - often. I suppose though, you will not bother looking at these testimonies or any other that are critical of your belief-set. You edit reality by denial. There are no victims since you will not see them. Any who say otherwise are liars. Only you can interpret scripture. Scripture justifies everything you do. The blood runs cold to think of the lives of the weak and powerless, children and the emotionally vulnerable,under your rules. Your contempt for any law but your own shows how dangerous JW is.
Zizek has some interesting things to say about tolerance. Wish I understood it well enough to put it in my own words, working on that. I think the short version is that people today tolerate, but only at a distance, which really isn't tolerance. Sort of like todays atheism, which believes itself infallible.
I know several people who were raised as Jehovah's Witnesses and left the church. Their families don't speak to them except to threaten them with eternal torment. They all suffer from chronic depression and anxiety and have substance abuse problems.
You asked me what lambsroar.org was.I have never checked it, never heard of it, nor do I care. So now you are trying to beat me over the head with it?
The problem with websites like these, is not that they are "critical of my beliefs", but that they are a harbor for people who can remain anonymous and say whatever they want.
I respect that everyone has their opinion, everyone has something to say. I do not keep away from sites like these because they might scare me, or cause me to doubt my beliefs, but because the fact that none of it can go beyond "he said she said".
I am going to end my conversation with you because there is no need to get upset about anything. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that.
They threaten them with eternal torment? I think you might be thinking of another religion. Witnesses do not teach the belief of eternal torment in hellfire, which completely contradicts what the Bible says about God being loving.
I hope that I can help other people by sharing my experience.
I was born into the Jehovah Witness cult in 1972. My mother was active
in the organization. My father was disfellowshipped for smoking
cigarettes. I am the third child. I have two older sisters. My younger
brother was born in 1975, the year that JWs should be looking forward to
Armageddon, according to the JW literature.
My oldest sister, Leah, started sexually abusing me when I was four years
old. She was a teenager. I told my mother what was happening. She
didn't do anything to help me. She told my unemployed father, but he
didn't do anything to help me either. Leah started molesting my little
brother when he was still a baby. My parents let Leah molest both of us.
My mother took all four of us kids to the five weekly meetings. The
pictures of Armageddon in the organization's literature scared me. My
mother told me that I would die a horrible death like the people in the
pictures if I ever stopped going to the meetings or field service.
The sexual abuse stopped when my family moved. The physical
abuse from my parents continued. When I was five years old my father
hit me with a wooden ping pong paddle so hard that it broke in half. My
brother and I were frequently whipped with a belt. I had a severe case
of chicken pox when I was six years old; my mother threatened to whip me
with the belt even though I had sores all over my body. My brother and
I were always dragged from our chairs at the meeting to the bathroom to
be spanked by our mother for talking or being restless.
When I started kindergarten, my mother told me that I could not
participate in school activities that included holidays, birthdays, the
American flag, etc. My kindergarten teacher had a surprise Christmas
party with a Santa Claus that came into our classroom. I didn't want to
be killed at Armageddon for being at a Christmas party, so I ran and hid
under the coats hanging from the coat rack. I stayed there until it was
time to go home. I was not allowed to have "worldly" friends at school.
I didn't have any JW friends because my father was disfellowshipped.
Everyone who has been a JW knows that there are cliques in "God's
Organization". Everyone is labeled whether they know it or not.
If you meet the Buddha on your path, slay him. If you meet Jesus, slay him. If you meet Mohammed, slay him. Whatever gods you meet, slay them. If you seek freedom, let none live.
More have died from their Watchtower spiritual and medical quackery than Jim Jones and David Koresh cults combined!
Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs:
A) They are at your door to recruit you for enslavement to their watchtower corporation,they will say that "we are just here to share a message from the Bible" this is deception right off.
B) Their 'message' is a false Gospel that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.The problem with this is it's not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim "..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple..."
C) Their anti-blood transfusion ban has killed hundreds if not thousands
D) once they recruit you they will "love bomb" you in cult fashion to also recruit your family & friends or cut them off. There are many more dangers,Jehovah's Witnesses got a bad rap for good and valid reasons.
99% of the world has rejected the teachings of the Watchtower Jehovah’s Witnesses, the darker truth is they are a destructive and oppressive organization.
Mind control is a terrible thing.
--
Danny Haszard Jehovah's Witness X 33 years http://www.freeminds.org
The Jehovah's Witnesses have settled lawsuits alleging church policies protected pedophile men who sexually abused children for many years. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/
The victims were required to sign gag orders to prevent them from saying anything about the money or more importantly about their abusers. Yet more importantly the court documents that were part of the five year legal battle shows exactly what despicable sinks of debauchery that supposed leaders and elders of Jehovah's Witnesses will go to in order to protect pedophiles.
The written record is incriminating and shows the cover up, protection and enabling of Jehovah's Witness child molesters around the world.
yeah, but....NO X-MAS?!? why the hell bother to have a Jeebus (pardon my spelling Oh High and No-Bull Costello) based religion and cut out the only decent part of it?! I call shenanigans on the ignants.
@ Takuan,
Hello again Tak.
Previously on these pages, I have accused you of being glib, and having ill thought out responses.
I have intimated that you tend to poke people for a response without actually holding a stated position.
I apologise unreservedly for any slight on your character.
I see that in regard to organised religion and dangerous cults our view points are similar, and that you will research a point before attacking.
Continue to go hard my friend.
As soon as the alleged church that soured my childhood is held up for ridicule here, I will bare my soul.
Expect nothing different from JW or Co$ crap.
Oh, and John, what about Xenu?
Fuck, wrong thread, sorry...
Takuan again....
We have a moderator here, Teresa Nielson Hayden, whose threads show up as Teresa Nielson Hayden / moderator.
There is also a stealth moderator on these threads.
I submit that from now on YOU sign in as Takuan/Immoderator.
Give some of the poor fish in the barrel a sporting chance at least.
And for those religious types who think that the JWs are "cultish", you're just a slightly more accepted cult, garnering yourselves the label "religion".
Dear sir, as a fellow atheistic sort, that condescending, intolerant manner is rather repulsive. I'm a religious type. I know plenty of religious types who focus on being good to others as part of their religion.
Sure, because we do not teach belief in Hellfire. If their parents did this, they were not witnesses.
You sure you're following the same program as the rest of the JW corps? You're using the royal 'we' there- are you the fellow in charge of legislating everything JW teaches? There's substantial anecdotal evidence against the idea that JW doesn't teach Hellfire.
Dear sir, as a fellow atheistic sort, that condescending, intolerant manner is rather repulsive. I'm a religious type. I know plenty of religious types who focus on being good to others as part of their religion.
You have some contradictions there.
Anyway, you're probably right, I was being condescending and intolerant, just like the people above when they slam JWs for their faith, yet cannot see the silliness of their own.
If people start laughing at people because of their silly beliefs, I am then under no obligation to "be nice" about their silly beliefs.
Actually we have several official moderators; Teresa (in charge) Antinous and Avram (deputies) and myself (in training). We also have of course the Editors themselves, but the idea is that they get to concentrate on content and creativity instead of having to continually remind people there are rules here (some rules, anyway).
In regards to my own commenting: moderation is a separate duty and function from commentary and contribution. If some imagine they are constrained in some way because they find themselves discussing or arguing with a moderator - well, that is in their heads. The unequal power a moderator has here is used to defend the general rights of all to have a decent and free place to air their views. If those views include stomping on others unfairly, then moderation is deployed. It's really pretty simple.
I admit to an immoderate delight in exposing what I see as dangerous hypocrisy. I do not need anything but truth to do that. I also imagine that if I misuse any official moderation capacity,I will have three others landing on my neck in short order. As I would do for them.
Not your own beliefs, Mister Sutherland, but the beliefs as purported by Jehovah's Witnesses in majority. You may believe otherwise, but the testimony of JW, the JW meeting I've sat in upon, the friends (and friends of friends) I have whom have experiences that are far different from yours, say that my and other person's characterizations of JW as a cult is accurate.
You may have rational beliefs, you may be a good person; I do not know you well enough to say. I do not think you are a bad person. I do think, however, that the beliefs of the society you associate with are dangerous and cultish on the whole.
Wow. I don't think I've ever seen so much bigotry or intolerance in a single thread before. Getting back to the original story, I think Gurney is an exceptional artist and I really enjoyed his blog about this experience. (And I agree with the poster who said that the guy in the drawing looks a bit like Urkel.)
Even though I am an atheist, I just don't get people who are rude or mean to the Jehovah's witnesses who come to their door.
Evey one of them who I have ever me has been a very kind and caring person.
When I was a kid, my father lost his wallet just as we were going on vacation. When we got home they returned the wallet with everything in it. They refused to take any money from my father when he offered it.
I honestly don't know enough about their religion to dispute or agree with anything mentioned in the comments above. All I can say is that from my personal experience, they have done me no harm, and seem to be a nice group of people.
OK, on a very simple level: How many times have you answered your door to the same people in the past twenty years at the same address to politely say: "We don't want any"?
AhhMyEyes 60: We've already had a long discussion in these pages about atheist religion. The fact that you think 'atheist' is synonymous with 'not religious' shows how much you've bought into the Christian worldview that pervades our society.
Takuan 68: OK, you can't fault them too much for THAT. I don't know if any of the other stuff is true, but given the amount of hostility expressed in this thread, going by twos seems like a reasonable safety precaution to me. Mormon mishes do the same (though in their case they really are also supposed to keep each other in line).
My religion expressly forbids proselytization, but if it required it instead, I certainly wouldn't go up to a stranger's house alone to try to sell them on it.
We've already had a long discussion in these pages about atheist religion.
Was another thread. We can't fault people too much for not being cosmopolitan. Western religion is predominately if not entirely theistic.
Agreed on the traveling-in-pairs thing. I've got more respect for mishes now though, being as one of my good friends is going to do so out of high school for two years and then heading to college. He's a Mormon. What's this about keeping each other in line?
You're polytheist, aren't you? Or was that someone else? Why the ban on proselytizing?
ummm, perhaps then, there is a danger in the behaviour they engage in. When the world speaks to you through danger, it is usually saying something.
I wonder what the message is? Could it be that what they are doing is not well received by others? Which leads to the question: Why is it not well received?
The Ur-spam, the Proto-spam must have been someone at your cave door right after that difficult night you spent not being eaten, waking you up with earnest questions about which animal totem you revere. And the first troll was the one that kept coming back after being soundly clubbed.
I've known a few JWs, as I have lived a few blocks from one of their temples most of my life. Nice people, a bit controlling (helicopter parents), and no more bat-shit-crazy/creepy than most of the religions I've had contact with.
Also - why wouldn't they look happy when dealing with outsiders; they're trying to sell something. In my short time in the service industry, I smiled more than I did in any time in my life... while being miserably unhappy. (Conversely, I frowned more in my short stint in the theatre, while elated.)
...and
a·the·ist
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
I see nothing about religion!
re·li·gion
n.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
Look, a definiton of religion that doesn't have god(s)!
Mmmm. Goes nicely with my hobby as a non-stamp collector. And the hair colour "bald"...
Right. You know what, never mind, Xopher, it's not accidental ignorance that's the problem here. I already said what my 'atheist religion' is.
Agent86
I actually came home from my 17 hr shift at Chick-Fil-A with sore cheeks from smiling so much and practically new smile-wrinkles. I'm not a smiling person, even when I'm thrilled, but man, in the service industry...
Tenn 71: He can search. I'm not inclined to provide links to someone so self-satisfied.
Mormon mishes are under a lot of restrictions. They're not really supposed to go out at all except in pairs, or talk to anyone but other mishes except in the context of the missionary work itself. I don't really know much beyond that, except that their partners really ARE supposed to rat them out if they stray.
I'm Wiccan. Wicca isn't really monotheist or polytheist at base, though it looks polytheistic in practice. That polytheism-in-practice is exactly why we don't proselytize. We know our path is right for US, but we don't believe in interfering with someone else's path. I have friends who are excellent people, and Christianity really works for them. They would make lousy Wiccans. I would make a lousy Christian.
I certainly believe in assisting a seeker in finding a religious path...but I've been known to send someone back to church, because not going to church made him so unhappy. Wicca is not for everyone; it follows that trying to influence someone into Wicca is wrong sometimes.
@77;
Mormon Missionaries. 10 years ago I inhabited an apartment and 2 very nice earnest young fellows came to live upstairs. I could tell by their clothes, bikes, books and frightened looks that they were LDS on mission and they definitely weren't from Detroit. My then roommate, a very mischievous young lady made it her business to subtly flirt with them at every opportunity. She was a real pro at that. After two days she had them walking into walls, forgetting their own names and nearly fainting from embarrassment every time they saw her. It was evil, but a great deal of fun to watch.
As an adult, I researched them thoroughly before making any decisions about my own faith.
They have claimed the end of the world several times, yet warn others of following false prophets.
They dont celebrate birthdays, but oh... if someone is married and has an anniversary, roll out the kegs and crank up the music! Apparently marraige is ordained by God, but birthdays arent.
Being forced to go door to door as a kid was one of the most soul-breaking experiences of my life... well that, and having to stand outside the classroom in 1st grade as the kids exchanged paper Valentines.
And the blood issue... they've gone back and forth so many times on health issues. Transplants being the big one, it used to be banned by the society, now it's ok. Too bad for those that couldnt get them when it was against God's blood rules.
And yes, I've seen many families torn apart myself. Including my own. And I hate to sound cliche but yep... I was also abused by a JW when I was 12 years old. He's still married to my sister because she'd rather keep her covenant with God and not be divorced than leave a child molester. Nice, huh. He did have to step down from being an elder though.
Another creepy fact: No copy machines in the kingdom halls. The "society" that big nameless beast that feeds them magazines, yet dont have to take any personal responsibilty, because it's all from "the society" doesnt want any records/copies kept... just send them all to Brooklyn and dont make copies. Fascinating.
I could go on... I know this article isnt really about this... but reading everyones conversation, I just couldnt help but comment.
I do believe most are good people and believe they're doing Gods will... just dont come to my door, or you'll get an earful, not a drawing. I wish these people weren't so completely brainwashed where they can't even think for themselves anymore.
FYI, the best way to avoid missionaries is to live next door to them. I lived for six years next to a Mormon family that regularly hosted missionaries. They told the elders up front to stay off our block based on the 'don't shit where you eat' doctrine.
Right. You know what, never mind, Xopher, it's not accidental ignorance that's the problem here. I already said what my 'atheist religion' is.
Just because a little discussion took place on BB and a couple of you decided that atheism actually is a religion (despite definitions to the contrary) doesn't make it one.
You can be an atheist and a Buddhist, yes. Then Buddhism is your religion. Atheism has no dogma, nothing religious at all. The only thing qualifying you as an atheist is if you say, "there is no god". And atheism isn't a prerequisite for being Buddhist, so it's not your "atheist religion", sorry.
You could even go so far as to say that secular humanism is your religion. Still not atheism. Fact is, atheism is not a religion. Redefine if you like, it matters not.
Try not to take this personally, but you're just a figment of my imagination. I knew that I shouldn't have eaten that lime pickle before my nap.
I don't, I will try my hardest to ensure the continued eating of lime pickles before naps though.
AhhMyEyes 84: No one here is saying that atheism is a religion, just that some religions are atheist.
Just because your lack of belief in $DIETY means, for you, that you have no religion, doesn't mean that it has that consequence for everyone. For me it's as if you're saying that anyone who doesn't believe in ghosts has no religion; it narrows the field of things that qualify as "religion" to the ones that include a belief in ghosts.
Then I apologise in my turn for speaking dismissively of you earlier, before considering that it might just be a misunderstanding. I can well understand how an atheist might get very tired indeed of saying "no, it's not a religion" and having people insist that it is.
The analogy that occurs to me is the "So, which one of you is the guy?" question that I got tired of answering before my 25th birthday.
Of course atheism isn't a religion.
I echo Xopher's apologies for getting all snarly.
Xo, I always want to punch people that ask that. If I'm ever a millionaire, I'm going to air Public Service Announcements declaring that, dude, gay relationships are gay because they are between two GUYS, hello.
Apparently the word for the beliefs that lead to questions like this is 'heteronormative'.
Very interesting conversation here. I am one of Jehovahs Witnesses, I was raped by a fellow member at the age of five. He was taken to court and dealt with, my family moved for my mental, emotional, and spiritual health, and I am now nineteen and a regular pioneer. As far as the way the elders handeled the situation, he was a minor and not a baptised member, but they gave a talk warning about the benefits of talking to your children about sexual abuse, and without naming the offender warned that their had been a situation in the congregation. Before you judge on that, think of the sex offenders list in the area. This person committed wrong against me, and his thinking and reasonings were dangerous and he needed psyciatric treatment. I have no issues with the way things were handled.
It is interesting how people think that just because someone goes through something terrible in life, if they are a mormon, jehovahs witness, or otherwise that it ALWAYS can be blamed on their religion. Despite the fact that we try to live our lives in harmony with the bible, bad things do happen. I doubt any on this forum could say that they have not been hurt or cheated or misused by someone in their lifetime in one way or another. I also don't believe that anyone could say that they have not made a bad choice or two, I know I have had my share of mistakes in this lifetime. Yes there have been some (many) child abuse cases that have been mishandled, but things have also been mishandled in courts, political systems, as well as other religious societies.
Why do I continue to do what I do? Why have I not been stumbled or angered by the constant threats that my religion is a cult and I am brainwashed? And told when at the door that I physically abuse children, all the while having known the pain of abuse and never having any intention of hurting one hair on a defensless childs body?
Because I know that there have been situations mishandled, but I know that we are human. Our judgment system is imperfect. Therefore I heavily rely on the bibles teachings because they are reasonable. Even the ones dealing with blood. Which I will get to in a minute. The elders who mishandle situations are dealt with. There are people all over the world who are raised with different backgrounds. Thats why I appreciate a BODY of elders, because they make decisions together. On top of that, we have circuit overseers who deal with mishandled cases. On top of that we have district overseers, brothers at bethel, etc. All who trust in the bible and live by its standards to the best human extent possible. If they do not, then they loose their position and they must take their decisions up with Jehovah.
As far as blood transfusions, that is a personal decision that is made by Jehovahs Witnesses. Each individual uses their own reasonings in concordance with what the bible teaches. We have medical forms that we fill out, we are aware of all bloodless medical procedures. We are not radical. We deeply care for our brothers and sisters and during these times try to comfort and help them. If someone decides to leave the orginization we are saddened, but it is their decision. Their is no yelling, no outcasting. But to get to my point:
I believe in the teachings provided by Jehovahs Orginization because I have thouroughly researched other religions and know that what I believe is the truth. I have a good personal relationship with God and I go door to door not because I am made to, but because I want people to know the wonderful promises that I know. The bibles speaks of a ressurection of the righteous and unrighteous, and Jesus himself talked about the hypocrisy of judging, so I refrain from judging others because of their chosen lifestyle. I do what I do because I love people. I have had many issues to work through with my rape, but have found loving comfort in my family, the congregation, and especially the bible.
We travel in groups usually for protection and just for fun. But I have went to doors by myself before. I have been threatened with physical harm. But I wanted to share this because I am not brainwashed, and I am not a sick person. I have a regular life, I watch tv, go to movies, hang out with friends, travel. But I dedicated my life to jehovah, and I will obey his commandments in the bible because I love him. If you meet me at your door, I will not try to convert you, because converting someone does not involve faith, and faith is what I am here for. Because there is a brighter future that the bible speaks about, and I want to let you know what that is. If you say no, I will leave. it is your choice. You aren't going to hell, I do not hate you, and I have no right to judge you. So, anyone who has any questions about what I have just said, if this does not explain enough, then feel free to ask. I have not read the story yet, going to read it now. And yes, the brother does look like urkel :) how cute!
That's wonderful! Look at the smiles on the faces of those Jehovah's Witnesses in the story.
@1: And they're thinking, "So this is what a front hallway looks like! After so many years! I can't wait to tell all my friends!"
But how does he get them to leave?
heartwarming, I often feel sorry for these as I watch them trudge from angry door to slamming door. Then I remember how they advocate killing children by denying them medical care and also practice extreme social cruelty among themselves by shunning any (even to the point of suicide) who dispute the totalitarianism of their "faith".
Takuan-
Does anything you wrote mitigate the gracious kindness of Mr. Gurney sitting down and sharing his home with them? This speaks alot more about defying social mores of "being bothered" by people at your door than it does about the JW religion. Mr. Gurney's social experiment in kindness is an inherent good to me.
yup, and he could have done it with any itinerant beggar, glad-handing, blood-sucking politico or encyclopedia salesman (remember those?)
I had some JWs come to my door today. I politely told them "I'm not interested", and when they continued their pitch, I politely said "I'm not interested" again, and they left.
I learned long ago never to bother with people that are satisfied in their delusions. They won't hear whatever I say, they won't understand it, and they will interpret whatever I say or do in light of their delusions. What this artist did was cute & all, but pointless, except to amuse the artist. The JWs didn't learn anything from it, it didn't change them, it didn't lessen their grip on their semi-cultic delusions.
I let some cute Mormons in one time when I was bored and there was nothing on TV. It wasn't awful. They wanted to pray with me and share their religion. I debated with them for awhile and we tacitly agreed (in my opinion) that neither of us would bend to the other's religion, but we most certainly saw the other's point of view. It was an interesting hour, plus I got a free Book of Mormon out of the deal.
@lil,
Pointless? Did you read the article, or Gurney's original post? And in your language I detect some hostility... Read the article(s), then you'll see it wasn't about trying to change their minds, or a clash of beliefs. It is more about how one artist delt with a fellow person coming to his door.
with respect, this is more than just a cute story.
Ok, I'm off to look for kitten photos.
@ Cyenobite- Yes, you have a point. But, how did the encounter better the lives of the JWs? It gave everybody some warm fuzzies, sure. It made everybody happy. If one subscribes to the viewpoint that all religious paths are equal, then certainly, it was enough. According to that view, just to hand out some warm fuzzies and teach people to be nice is plenty good enough in this life. No, it wasn't about changing anybody.
But, if you ascribe to the view that all religious paths are NOT equal in the sight of God, then you would likely look on the JW doctrine as cultish and dangerous. In that case, it would certainly be doing the JWs a disservice to validate their beliefs with tacit approval and acceptance. So, that is why I said what the artist did was pointless- it did not change the JWs, only handed out warm fuzzies and subconsciously promoted the concept that all religious paths are equal to God, and thereby lend tacit approval to their beliefs.
if you look at the photo on Gurney's blog, you'll notice they didn't actually make it into the house: they're sitting on the porch. and having a fine old time of it.
my brother - a staunch and loud-mouthed atheist - has a grand old time talking scripture with the JW's when they come to his house. he uses passages to support his side of things, they use it for theirs. neither will win the other over, but they enjoy being human and humane with one another.
(glad you liked the link, BB!)
here's the original post:
http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.com/search/label/Rabbit%20Trails
The story was pretty cool, and would welcome someone to draw me while I am at the door .. my ugly mug might frighten some children though.
Takuan,
I would like to hear how we advocate the "killing of children" by refusing certain medical procedures. I would imagine that you are talking about how we refuse to take blood.
It might benefit you to read a bit on bloodless surgery. It's gaining wide acceptance in the medical community as the safer way to do surgery. The recovery times are decreased dramatically, the risk of contracting other diseases is gone and more.
http://www.baptisthealthsystem.com/services_surgery_treatments_bloodless.aspx
Technology has come a long way and proven that blood transfusions are not necessary in many situations.
Nonetheless, very cool article about Mr Gurney. I would welcome this at any door. :)
subconsciously promoted the concept that all religious paths are equal to God
Yes. He did the perfect thing. He treated their beliefs with respect. He showed them by example. Apparently you feel that he should have tried to convert them to whatever his belief system is. That would make him exactly like them. Arguing religion with strangers: what a great way to create positive change in the world.
Peace Of The Waterhole be upon ye, Sri Sutherland.
If you wish to join to combat, so be it, but understand I take no prisoners and frequently eat the wounded.
As someone who spent two years as a full time missionary, I must say this is great. Mr. Gurney has my admiration.
@ Antinous:
It was "the perfect thing" according to YOUR belief system. According to MY belief system, it was not. So, is my belief threatening to you in some way?
And actually I do not advocate "arguing religion with strangers." Unless it is a mutually agreed-upon, civilized debate/discussion, then there is no point. That is why I, myself, ignore JWs that come to my door, remember?
lwys fnd t msng t fnd flks sch s yrslf tht prch tlrnc f ll rlgs pths- NTL thy mt wth rlgn thy fl s "ntlrnt." Thn, thr wn tlrnc qckly cms t n nd.
Lilorfnannie
Your comment is, as usual, hostile, trollish and based on a warped reading of my comment. I recommend that other commenters ignore you until you wander off.
Actually I have no idea what you are talking about, Antinous. I thought it was a very clear, straightforward response. I don't see how I'm being hostile- I have nothing against you, Antinous. But I see how you (Antinous) are being hostile, and most definitely not tolerant of a religious path that differs from your own.
All I'm saying is that there are two viewpoints here- 1) all paths are equal, (the artist's response) 2) all paths are not equal. If one path is wrong, then it would not be helpful or kind to the person on the wrong path, to make as if their path was NOT wrong. In that view, to merely hand out warm fuzzies to the person on the wrong path is pointless at best, and misleading and detrimental to them at worst.
Why should you get so worked up over my believing that a given path is wrong? Am I hurting anybody? You're just picking and choosing what criteria you believe constitutes the "right" path yourself, and practicing your own form of intolerance.
I have not called anyone names here, I have not been rude to anyone here. I have not been a troll. I think Antinous is very worked up over it, because I have exposed the flaw in his reasoning.
♪ ♫ Tall and tan and... ♫ ♪
a challenge and puzzle then, an opportunity for growth
Whilst Honeymooning in Canada, we stayed with some of my Wife's Jehova's Witness cousins for a few nights. Being extremely irreverant, I was somewhat apprehensive.
They were awesome folks, took us to our first Ice Hockey Match and plied us with beer, and the subject of religion never came up once.
ah, but did you check you still had your soul when you left?
@Jsutherland
This is a very typical bit of JW redirection. At its core, the JW refusal of blood transfusions is based entirely on faith, not on science (as their own "Blood Brochure" is very specific about). Bloodless surgery as a *preference* may be more popular than it once was, but that is not the issue at hand. The *doctrine* and practice of letting someone die rather than allow the use of blood in life-threatening situations is the real issue. And at its core is the blind adherence to the dictates of an organization of men. The "blood issue" is the JW's Jonestown Kool-Aid. It is their baseless test of loyalty to their Society. Despite the fact that it makes little sense to a silent majority of them anymore, they think it proves their faithfulness to "God's organization". People who die refusing blood, or who let their children die, are considered heroes.
"Apparently you feel that he should have tried to convert them to whatever his belief system is. That would make him exactly like them. Arguing religion with strangers: what a great way to create positive change in the world."
I talk to any religious people that come to my door because I'm open-minded and curious about other peoples' beliefs. That having been said, I've never had any JW's try to "convert" me and I've certainly never heard them argue with me or anyone else. They typically offer to share religious info and leave the decision whether or not to listen up to me. No big deal.
The guy in the pic above... it's my eyes or does he look as Steve Urkel? You know, the nerdy guy from Family matters?
@Anonymous
I've never heard anyone that died for refusal of blood called a hero.
You say it makes little to no sense to the majority of Witnesses, so that means that you are able to read the hearts and the minds of people.
You are very gifted, indeed! (please note my sarcasm).
My refusal of blood, as well as others, is not baseless by any means. I have studied the Bible and believe that blood is sacred to God, and the misuse of such goes against His will. However, no matter what I say I believe, not because SOMEONE told me to believe it, but because I studied the matter and came to a conclusion, you will just spin it to say I am brainwashed, etc. I've heard it a million times, and the excuses never change.
I'm not here to argue or try to convince someone who does not want to see things from another perspective. You see things as black and white, as well all do, but we all see black and white in different shades.
when the J.W's came to my door, i openned it wide and let them in, saying:"make youselves at home, i'll go get some iced tea." they graciously accepted, walked three paces into the room, saw my skull collection, and my airbrush paintings, and i never saw or heard from them again. several years earlier ( when i was in college and not as 'nice'), a family of J.W.s banged incessently on my door at 8 o'clock in the freekin mornin. when i answered the door ( obviously hung-over from the night before ), instead of appologising and going on their way, they started up with " Did you know that Jesus Christ is alive, and living with us at this very moment?" i said" yeah,he's in the next room over, and he gets really pissed off when unfeeling cretins wake him up at 8 o'clock in the freekin morning!" the look of sheer befuddled-terror on thier faces was in fact priceless.
Two sutras of the Radical Pantheist Aphorismata:
Tolerate everything except intolerance.
Doubt everything except fallibility.
that's the nice face of them. Had a lesbian friend who politely explained why they would have no sale at her house. The next day she discovered these "emissaries of Jeebus" had knocked on every other door in her apartment building and made sure every other tenant knew who and what their neighbour was.
And then there was the more recent friend; he couldn't get a girl. Tried everything and was looking at Russian mail order brides. Last I heard, the Witnesses came though for him - so long as he converted.
I heard about some people ("Aquarians," they were called then...now we'd call them neoPagans) back in the 60s who did something similar, MinTPhresh. The JW's who lived upstairs from them stopped by EVERY WEEK on their way out to do rounds.
Eventually the Aquarians got tired of this, so one of them dressed in a horned helmet and a scawy cloak, and banged on THEIR door at o-God-o'clock in the morning. "Do you know Odin?" he asked when they blearily opened the door. "Well, All-Father hung on the tree for nine days and nights to bring you the Runes of Knowledge, and I think you should know about it!"
They were never bothered again.
By the way, the JWs have fought some religious freedom cases that have benefitted everyone. For example, kids can't be legally compelled to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school because of them. (Of course they can still be illegally compelled, but that's not the JWs' fault.)
hey there sutherland!
what's www.lambsroar.org? something about roaring lambs?
is any of this true?
http://www.exjws.net/sexabuse/index.htm
http://www.cftf.com/comments/blood/BloodDeathOdds.html
Takuan -
I usually find your posts quite clever and enjoyable, but you seem to be unduly hostile toward JSutherland, who has been nothing but polite in this exchange.
Why all the religious argument?
Can't we talk about how fucking awesome the Dinotopia books were?
@Takuan
No idea what www.lambsroar.org is. Never heard of it, and as far as anything is concerned, watchtower.org and jw-media.org are the only official sites "we" produce.
As far as the other links go, I have no clue if any of that is true or not. I personally, have never heard first hand of anyone being abused in any manner. However, Jehovah's Witnesses are everyday ordinary people, and can make mistakes and get into trouble just like any other human being. We do not harbor or protect any individual who willingly commits an act such as that, as it goes DIRECTLY against what the Bible teaches.
As far as those who say we harbor people who abuse others sexually, they also seem to get in an uproar because we disfellowship (excommunicate) members who are not repentant. As far as I see it, people are going to complain about anything and everything regardless of what is done.
We obey the laws as long as they do not go against the laws that God sets out. The Bible says that man-made governments are put in their relative positions of authority by God to keep some form of law/order until God's kingdom is setup. The Bible does not teach toleration of such things like sexual abuse, so we have no toleration of such either.
My dad tells the wonderful story of how he once converted a visiting Jehovah's Witness.
My dad's undergrad degree was mostly focused on Christian theology, so he was very familiar with the more popular modern translations and had also learned to read the Greek and Hebrew texts. His student digs were on the circuit regularly visited by a lone Witness who made the rounds of students year in, year out. Until finally, the knock arrived at my dad's door.
The story runs that my dad invited the chap inside, made a pot of tea and sat down to discuss religion; the Witness with his King James, my dad with several modern editions and his Greek, Hebrew and annotated texts.
To cut a four-hour long story short, the Witness - having conceded a lot of points during the discussion - left rather shakily. His visits stopped and he wasn't seen again by the students for some months, until he was spotted rather nervously taking communion in an anglican church.
==
I won't weigh in to the JW debate because my experiences have been very mixed. The witnesses who visited my student home were lovely people, much nicer than the Anglican "Christian Union" types I met on my campus. Unfortunately, another pair of Witnesses I met condemned my dad as a "man of blood" because he'd occasionally stood in as a minister for the local RAF base. I was similarly condemned for being his son. I also spent a summer working with a former Witness who, as an 18 year old, had developed a gambling addiction. By his account he was cast out of his community as a sinner, chucked out of his home and had been left to his own devices since.
So my money is on JWs being like any other religion I've encountered: a mixture of good, average and bad people all claiming that God inspired their good acts and endorses their bad ones.
I`ve always found that even if I`m not particularly interested in converting - all of the JWs who come to my door are very nice people.
While I don`t have have any plans to take part in their religion, I do find it inspiring in a way that they dedicate part of their lives to something they so strongly believe in. Back when I was in high school, I simply could not believe that they were really the mission work because they wanted too - but rather that they must have been forced in to it by parents, etc. Then I befriended a JW guy, and found that he really did believe from the depths of his heart everything he was preaching.
I was a bit jealous. I wish I could have that much faith in something. Even after it was absolutely clear that I wasn`t interested at all, he would stop by as a friend, leaving religion out of the conversation (unless asked by someone).
I`m still always very nice to those who come by these days (yes, they even come around in Japan). While they have no chance of converting me, I feel they deserve my respect. A good person is a good person in my book, just as a bad is a bad.
Plus, they always give me home made cookies.
so $scientologists have never heard of Xenu - or are selectively deaf in that matter,and JWs have never heard of the damage their cult does to the weak and unwary in terms of psychological harm. The "Lambs Roar" site you so disingenuously disown is for survivors of religious sexual abuse. JW is mentioned there - often. I suppose though, you will not bother looking at these testimonies or any other that are critical of your belief-set. You edit reality by denial. There are no victims since you will not see them. Any who say otherwise are liars. Only you can interpret scripture. Scripture justifies everything you do. The blood runs cold to think of the lives of the weak and powerless, children and the emotionally vulnerable,under your rules. Your contempt for any law but your own shows how dangerous JW is.
Ahhh Jehovah's Witnesses, the abusers religion.
Xopher
"Tolerate everything except intolerance."
Zizek has some interesting things to say about tolerance. Wish I understood it well enough to put it in my own words, working on that. I think the short version is that people today tolerate, but only at a distance, which really isn't tolerance. Sort of like todays atheism, which believes itself infallible.
I know several people who were raised as Jehovah's Witnesses and left the church. Their families don't speak to them except to threaten them with eternal torment. They all suffer from chronic depression and anxiety and have substance abuse problems.
@ Takuan
You asked me what lambsroar.org was.I have never checked it, never heard of it, nor do I care. So now you are trying to beat me over the head with it?
The problem with websites like these, is not that they are "critical of my beliefs", but that they are a harbor for people who can remain anonymous and say whatever they want.
I respect that everyone has their opinion, everyone has something to say. I do not keep away from sites like these because they might scare me, or cause me to doubt my beliefs, but because the fact that none of it can go beyond "he said she said".
I am going to end my conversation with you because there is no need to get upset about anything. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that.
Thanks!
@ Antinous
They threaten them with eternal torment? I think you might be thinking of another religion. Witnesses do not teach the belief of eternal torment in hellfire, which completely contradicts what the Bible says about God being loving.
We don't believe in Hell/eternal torment/etc.
sure
http://www.exjws.net/
We don't believe in Hell/eternal torment/etc.
Shall I have them all contact you?
exerpt:
Dear Randy,
I hope that I can help other people by sharing my experience.
I was born into the Jehovah Witness cult in 1972. My mother was active
in the organization. My father was disfellowshipped for smoking
cigarettes. I am the third child. I have two older sisters. My younger
brother was born in 1975, the year that JWs should be looking forward to
Armageddon, according to the JW literature.
My oldest sister, Leah, started sexually abusing me when I was four years
old. She was a teenager. I told my mother what was happening. She
didn't do anything to help me. She told my unemployed father, but he
didn't do anything to help me either. Leah started molesting my little
brother when he was still a baby. My parents let Leah molest both of us.
My mother took all four of us kids to the five weekly meetings. The
pictures of Armageddon in the organization's literature scared me. My
mother told me that I would die a horrible death like the people in the
pictures if I ever stopped going to the meetings or field service.
The sexual abuse stopped when my family moved. The physical
abuse from my parents continued. When I was five years old my father
hit me with a wooden ping pong paddle so hard that it broke in half. My
brother and I were frequently whipped with a belt. I had a severe case
of chicken pox when I was six years old; my mother threatened to whip me
with the belt even though I had sores all over my body. My brother and
I were always dragged from our chairs at the meeting to the bathroom to
be spanked by our mother for talking or being restless.
When I started kindergarten, my mother told me that I could not
participate in school activities that included holidays, birthdays, the
American flag, etc. My kindergarten teacher had a surprise Christmas
party with a Santa Claus that came into our classroom. I didn't want to
be killed at Armageddon for being at a Christmas party, so I ran and hid
under the coats hanging from the coat rack. I stayed there until it was
time to go home. I was not allowed to have "worldly" friends at school.
I didn't have any JW friends because my father was disfellowshipped.
Everyone who has been a JW knows that there are cliques in "God's
Organization". Everyone is labeled whether they know it or not.
@ Antinous
Sure, because we do not teach belief in Hellfire.
If their parents did this, they were not witnesses.
so many, many stories at http://www.exjws.net/, just there to be read by anyone,by the whole world...
If you meet the Buddha on your path, slay him. If you meet Jesus, slay him. If you meet Mohammed, slay him. Whatever gods you meet, slay them. If you seek freedom, let none live.
Sorry, dude, but Mohammed, at least, would beat your ass raw.
Just like a cult in every way.....
More have died from their Watchtower spiritual and medical quackery than Jim Jones and David Koresh cults combined!
Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs:
A) They are at your door to recruit you for enslavement to their watchtower corporation,they will say that "we are just here to share a message from the Bible" this is deception right off.
B) Their 'message' is a false Gospel that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.The problem with this is it's not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim "..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple..."
C) Their anti-blood transfusion ban has killed hundreds if not thousands
D) once they recruit you they will "love bomb" you in cult fashion to also recruit your family & friends or cut them off. There are many more dangers,Jehovah's Witnesses got a bad rap for good and valid reasons.
99% of the world has rejected the teachings of the Watchtower Jehovah’s Witnesses, the darker truth is they are a destructive and oppressive organization.
Mind control is a terrible thing.
--
Danny Haszard Jehovah's Witness X 33 years http://www.freeminds.org
The Jehovah's Witnesses have settled lawsuits alleging church policies protected pedophile men who sexually abused children for many years.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/
The victims were required to sign gag orders to prevent them from saying anything about the money or more importantly about their abusers. Yet more importantly the court documents that were part of the five year legal battle shows exactly what despicable sinks of debauchery that supposed leaders and elders of Jehovah's Witnesses will go to in order to protect pedophiles.
The written record is incriminating and shows the cover up, protection and enabling of Jehovah's Witness child molesters around the world.
yeah, but....NO X-MAS?!? why the hell bother to have a Jeebus (pardon my spelling Oh High and No-Bull Costello) based religion and cut out the only decent part of it?! I call shenanigans on the ignants.
@ Takuan,
Hello again Tak.
Previously on these pages, I have accused you of being glib, and having ill thought out responses.
I have intimated that you tend to poke people for a response without actually holding a stated position.
I apologise unreservedly for any slight on your character.
I see that in regard to organised religion and dangerous cults our view points are similar, and that you will research a point before attacking.
Continue to go hard my friend.
As soon as the alleged church that soured my childhood is held up for ridicule here, I will bare my soul.
Expect nothing different from JW or Co$ crap.
Oh, and John, what about Xenu?
Fuck, wrong thread, sorry...
Takuan again....
We have a moderator here, Teresa Nielson Hayden, whose threads show up as Teresa Nielson Hayden / moderator.
There is also a stealth moderator on these threads.
I submit that from now on YOU sign in as Takuan/Immoderator.
Give some of the poor fish in the barrel a sporting chance at least.
Sorry to break it to you, but there is no god.
And for those religious types who think that the JWs are "cultish", you're just a slightly more accepted cult, garnering yourselves the label "religion".
Sorry to break it to you, but there is no god.
Dear sir, as a fellow atheistic sort, that condescending, intolerant manner is rather repulsive. I'm a religious type. I know plenty of religious types who focus on being good to others as part of their religion.
Sure, because we do not teach belief in Hellfire. If their parents did this, they were not witnesses.
You sure you're following the same program as the rest of the JW corps? You're using the royal 'we' there- are you the fellow in charge of legislating everything JW teaches? There's substantial anecdotal evidence against the idea that JW doesn't teach Hellfire.
Dear sir, as a fellow atheistic sort, that condescending, intolerant manner is rather repulsive. I'm a religious type. I know plenty of religious types who focus on being good to others as part of their religion.
You have some contradictions there.
Anyway, you're probably right, I was being condescending and intolerant, just like the people above when they slam JWs for their faith, yet cannot see the silliness of their own.
If people start laughing at people because of their silly beliefs, I am then under no obligation to "be nice" about their silly beliefs.
Not all religions are theistic. I'm a Buddhist.
I think the slam is more because JW beliefs lead to direct harm- the blood issue, for one- than the presence of beliefs themselves.
@ Tenn
You seem to know so much more about my own beliefs and what is taught, so what is the point of going on and on about this anymore?
Thank you to Mr Gurney for sharing his experience. It made for a cool article.
Dear Piove
Actually we have several official moderators; Teresa (in charge) Antinous and Avram (deputies) and myself (in training). We also have of course the Editors themselves, but the idea is that they get to concentrate on content and creativity instead of having to continually remind people there are rules here (some rules, anyway).
In regards to my own commenting: moderation is a separate duty and function from commentary and contribution. If some imagine they are constrained in some way because they find themselves discussing or arguing with a moderator - well, that is in their heads. The unequal power a moderator has here is used to defend the general rights of all to have a decent and free place to air their views. If those views include stomping on others unfairly, then moderation is deployed. It's really pretty simple.
I admit to an immoderate delight in exposing what I see as dangerous hypocrisy. I do not need anything but truth to do that. I also imagine that if I misuse any official moderation capacity,I will have three others landing on my neck in short order. As I would do for them.
Let's all keep it civil, I will try to myself.
my own beliefs and what is taught
Not your own beliefs, Mister Sutherland, but the beliefs as purported by Jehovah's Witnesses in majority. You may believe otherwise, but the testimony of JW, the JW meeting I've sat in upon, the friends (and friends of friends) I have whom have experiences that are far different from yours, say that my and other person's characterizations of JW as a cult is accurate.
You may have rational beliefs, you may be a good person; I do not know you well enough to say. I do not think you are a bad person. I do think, however, that the beliefs of the society you associate with are dangerous and cultish on the whole.
Wow. I don't think I've ever seen so much bigotry or intolerance in a single thread before. Getting back to the original story, I think Gurney is an exceptional artist and I really enjoyed his blog about this experience. (And I agree with the poster who said that the guy in the drawing looks a bit like Urkel.)
Even though I am an atheist, I just don't get people who are rude or mean to the Jehovah's witnesses who come to their door.
Evey one of them who I have ever me has been a very kind and caring person.
When I was a kid, my father lost his wallet just as we were going on vacation. When we got home they returned the wallet with everything in it. They refused to take any money from my father when he offered it.
I honestly don't know enough about their religion to dispute or agree with anything mentioned in the comments above. All I can say is that from my personal experience, they have done me no harm, and seem to be a nice group of people.
OK, on a very simple level: How many times have you answered your door to the same people in the past twenty years at the same address to politely say: "We don't want any"?
another point: why are they never alone? I think it is so they can inform on each other. Anyone?
all that real estate? I had no idea
http://www.cultnews.com/?cat=73
AhhMyEyes 60: We've already had a long discussion in these pages about atheist religion. The fact that you think 'atheist' is synonymous with 'not religious' shows how much you've bought into the Christian worldview that pervades our society.
Takuan 68: OK, you can't fault them too much for THAT. I don't know if any of the other stuff is true, but given the amount of hostility expressed in this thread, going by twos seems like a reasonable safety precaution to me. Mormon mishes do the same (though in their case they really are also supposed to keep each other in line).
My religion expressly forbids proselytization, but if it required it instead, I certainly wouldn't go up to a stranger's house alone to try to sell them on it.
We've already had a long discussion in these pages about atheist religion.
Was another thread. We can't fault people too much for not being cosmopolitan. Western religion is predominately if not entirely theistic.
Agreed on the traveling-in-pairs thing. I've got more respect for mishes now though, being as one of my good friends is going to do so out of high school for two years and then heading to college. He's a Mormon. What's this about keeping each other in line?
You're polytheist, aren't you? Or was that someone else? Why the ban on proselytizing?
atheist religion
Mmmm. Goes nicely with my hobby as a non-stamp collector. And the hair colour "bald"...
ummm, perhaps then, there is a danger in the behaviour they engage in. When the world speaks to you through danger, it is usually saying something.
I wonder what the message is? Could it be that what they are doing is not well received by others? Which leads to the question: Why is it not well received?
The Ur-spam, the Proto-spam must have been someone at your cave door right after that difficult night you spent not being eaten, waking you up with earnest questions about which animal totem you revere. And the first troll was the one that kept coming back after being soundly clubbed.
When did "Erkel" become a Jehovah's Witness?
I've known a few JWs, as I have lived a few blocks from one of their temples most of my life. Nice people, a bit controlling (helicopter parents), and no more bat-shit-crazy/creepy than most of the religions I've had contact with.
Also - why wouldn't they look happy when dealing with outsiders; they're trying to sell something. In my short time in the service industry, I smiled more than I did in any time in my life... while being miserably unhappy. (Conversely, I frowned more in my short stint in the theatre, while elated.)
...and
I see nothing about religion!
Look, a definiton of religion that doesn't have god(s)!
Mmmm. Goes nicely with my hobby as a non-stamp collector. And the hair colour "bald"...
Right. You know what, never mind, Xopher, it's not accidental ignorance that's the problem here. I already said what my 'atheist religion' is.
Agent86
I actually came home from my 17 hr shift at Chick-Fil-A with sore cheeks from smiling so much and practically new smile-wrinkles. I'm not a smiling person, even when I'm thrilled, but man, in the service industry...
Food service is hell.
Tenn 71: He can search. I'm not inclined to provide links to someone so self-satisfied.
Mormon mishes are under a lot of restrictions. They're not really supposed to go out at all except in pairs, or talk to anyone but other mishes except in the context of the missionary work itself. I don't really know much beyond that, except that their partners really ARE supposed to rat them out if they stray.
I'm Wiccan. Wicca isn't really monotheist or polytheist at base, though it looks polytheistic in practice. That polytheism-in-practice is exactly why we don't proselytize. We know our path is right for US, but we don't believe in interfering with someone else's path. I have friends who are excellent people, and Christianity really works for them. They would make lousy Wiccans. I would make a lousy Christian.
I certainly believe in assisting a seeker in finding a religious path...but I've been known to send someone back to church, because not going to church made him so unhappy. Wicca is not for everyone; it follows that trying to influence someone into Wicca is wrong sometimes.
@77;
Mormon Missionaries. 10 years ago I inhabited an apartment and 2 very nice earnest young fellows came to live upstairs. I could tell by their clothes, bikes, books and frightened looks that they were LDS on mission and they definitely weren't from Detroit. My then roommate, a very mischievous young lady made it her business to subtly flirt with them at every opportunity. She was a real pro at that. After two days she had them walking into walls, forgetting their own names and nearly fainting from embarrassment every time they saw her. It was evil, but a great deal of fun to watch.
I grew up as a JW.
As an adult, I researched them thoroughly before making any decisions about my own faith.
They have claimed the end of the world several times, yet warn others of following false prophets.
They dont celebrate birthdays, but oh... if someone is married and has an anniversary, roll out the kegs and crank up the music! Apparently marraige is ordained by God, but birthdays arent.
Being forced to go door to door as a kid was one of the most soul-breaking experiences of my life... well that, and having to stand outside the classroom in 1st grade as the kids exchanged paper Valentines.
And the blood issue... they've gone back and forth so many times on health issues. Transplants being the big one, it used to be banned by the society, now it's ok. Too bad for those that couldnt get them when it was against God's blood rules.
And yes, I've seen many families torn apart myself. Including my own. And I hate to sound cliche but yep... I was also abused by a JW when I was 12 years old. He's still married to my sister because she'd rather keep her covenant with God and not be divorced than leave a child molester. Nice, huh. He did have to step down from being an elder though.
Another creepy fact: No copy machines in the kingdom halls. The "society" that big nameless beast that feeds them magazines, yet dont have to take any personal responsibilty, because it's all from "the society" doesnt want any records/copies kept... just send them all to Brooklyn and dont make copies. Fascinating.
I could go on... I know this article isnt really about this... but reading everyones conversation, I just couldnt help but comment.
I do believe most are good people and believe they're doing Gods will... just dont come to my door, or you'll get an earful, not a drawing. I wish these people weren't so completely brainwashed where they can't even think for themselves anymore.
I like you, James Gurney.
http://jamesgurney.com/bio.html
My daughter was a young JW. She got better. So was my grandson. He got better too. Saw them last Xmas: Tree, turkey, and hot toddies. Yaay.
Sorry to break it to you, but there is no god.
Try not to take this personally, but you're just a figment of my imagination. I knew that I shouldn't have eaten that lime pickle before my nap.
FYI, the best way to avoid missionaries is to live next door to them. I lived for six years next to a Mormon family that regularly hosted missionaries. They told the elders up front to stay off our block based on the 'don't shit where you eat' doctrine.
Right. You know what, never mind, Xopher, it's not accidental ignorance that's the problem here. I already said what my 'atheist religion' is.
Just because a little discussion took place on BB and a couple of you decided that atheism actually is a religion (despite definitions to the contrary) doesn't make it one.
You can be an atheist and a Buddhist, yes. Then Buddhism is your religion. Atheism has no dogma, nothing religious at all. The only thing qualifying you as an atheist is if you say, "there is no god". And atheism isn't a prerequisite for being Buddhist, so it's not your "atheist religion", sorry.
You could even go so far as to say that secular humanism is your religion. Still not atheism. Fact is, atheism is not a religion. Redefine if you like, it matters not.
Try not to take this personally, but you're just a figment of my imagination. I knew that I shouldn't have eaten that lime pickle before my nap.
I don't, I will try my hardest to ensure the continued eating of lime pickles before naps though.
@ 84
"And atheism isn't a prerequisite for being Buddhist, so it's not your "atheist religion", sorry."
If I understand you corectly, I don't think that's the meaning s/he was going for. The atheism isn't an article of faith here, simply a descriptor.
Bhuddism, as you said, doesn't require belief in a God. Believeing that God doesn't exist is called atheism.
Bhuddism is therefore a religion that is -- or at least can be -- atheist; an atheist religion.
AhhMyEyes 84: No one here is saying that atheism is a religion, just that some religions are atheist.
Just because your lack of belief in $DIETY means, for you, that you have no religion, doesn't mean that it has that consequence for everyone. For me it's as if you're saying that anyone who doesn't believe in ghosts has no religion; it narrows the field of things that qualify as "religion" to the ones that include a belief in ghosts.
Xopher 86:
Then I was completely misunderstanding and I apologise.
Then I apologise in my turn for speaking dismissively of you earlier, before considering that it might just be a misunderstanding. I can well understand how an atheist might get very tired indeed of saying "no, it's not a religion" and having people insist that it is.
The analogy that occurs to me is the "So, which one of you is the guy?" question that I got tired of answering before my 25th birthday.
Of course atheism isn't a religion.
I echo Xopher's apologies for getting all snarly.
Xo, I always want to punch people that ask that. If I'm ever a millionaire, I'm going to air Public Service Announcements declaring that, dude, gay relationships are gay because they are between two GUYS, hello.
Apparently the word for the beliefs that lead to questions like this is 'heteronormative'.
@ tkn
y r nthng mr thn bbblng dt tht dsn't knw hs hd frm hl n th grnd.
@ ll
grw p nd qt pntng fngrs t vryn ls nd d wht y knw s rght n yr hrt.
Very interesting conversation here. I am one of Jehovahs Witnesses, I was raped by a fellow member at the age of five. He was taken to court and dealt with, my family moved for my mental, emotional, and spiritual health, and I am now nineteen and a regular pioneer. As far as the way the elders handeled the situation, he was a minor and not a baptised member, but they gave a talk warning about the benefits of talking to your children about sexual abuse, and without naming the offender warned that their had been a situation in the congregation. Before you judge on that, think of the sex offenders list in the area. This person committed wrong against me, and his thinking and reasonings were dangerous and he needed psyciatric treatment. I have no issues with the way things were handled.
It is interesting how people think that just because someone goes through something terrible in life, if they are a mormon, jehovahs witness, or otherwise that it ALWAYS can be blamed on their religion. Despite the fact that we try to live our lives in harmony with the bible, bad things do happen. I doubt any on this forum could say that they have not been hurt or cheated or misused by someone in their lifetime in one way or another. I also don't believe that anyone could say that they have not made a bad choice or two, I know I have had my share of mistakes in this lifetime. Yes there have been some (many) child abuse cases that have been mishandled, but things have also been mishandled in courts, political systems, as well as other religious societies.
Why do I continue to do what I do? Why have I not been stumbled or angered by the constant threats that my religion is a cult and I am brainwashed? And told when at the door that I physically abuse children, all the while having known the pain of abuse and never having any intention of hurting one hair on a defensless childs body?
Because I know that there have been situations mishandled, but I know that we are human. Our judgment system is imperfect. Therefore I heavily rely on the bibles teachings because they are reasonable. Even the ones dealing with blood. Which I will get to in a minute. The elders who mishandle situations are dealt with. There are people all over the world who are raised with different backgrounds. Thats why I appreciate a BODY of elders, because they make decisions together. On top of that, we have circuit overseers who deal with mishandled cases. On top of that we have district overseers, brothers at bethel, etc. All who trust in the bible and live by its standards to the best human extent possible. If they do not, then they loose their position and they must take their decisions up with Jehovah.
As far as blood transfusions, that is a personal decision that is made by Jehovahs Witnesses. Each individual uses their own reasonings in concordance with what the bible teaches. We have medical forms that we fill out, we are aware of all bloodless medical procedures. We are not radical. We deeply care for our brothers and sisters and during these times try to comfort and help them. If someone decides to leave the orginization we are saddened, but it is their decision. Their is no yelling, no outcasting. But to get to my point:
I believe in the teachings provided by Jehovahs Orginization because I have thouroughly researched other religions and know that what I believe is the truth. I have a good personal relationship with God and I go door to door not because I am made to, but because I want people to know the wonderful promises that I know. The bibles speaks of a ressurection of the righteous and unrighteous, and Jesus himself talked about the hypocrisy of judging, so I refrain from judging others because of their chosen lifestyle. I do what I do because I love people. I have had many issues to work through with my rape, but have found loving comfort in my family, the congregation, and especially the bible.
We travel in groups usually for protection and just for fun. But I have went to doors by myself before. I have been threatened with physical harm. But I wanted to share this because I am not brainwashed, and I am not a sick person. I have a regular life, I watch tv, go to movies, hang out with friends, travel. But I dedicated my life to jehovah, and I will obey his commandments in the bible because I love him. If you meet me at your door, I will not try to convert you, because converting someone does not involve faith, and faith is what I am here for. Because there is a brighter future that the bible speaks about, and I want to let you know what that is. If you say no, I will leave. it is your choice. You aren't going to hell, I do not hate you, and I have no right to judge you. So, anyone who has any questions about what I have just said, if this does not explain enough, then feel free to ask. I have not read the story yet, going to read it now. And yes, the brother does look like urkel :) how cute!