A blog written by a stripper who is also a fine writer.
Excerpt from a blog written by an "exotic dancer" named Grace, in Texas.
Rose was putting lotion on her face when she told me about the abortion. She was brief and matter-of-fact. Maybe I was supposed to ask more questions. The dressing room is not a tearful-hugs-sisterhood rah-rah-girlfriends kind of place. It's a zone of suspended emotion, mostly. It's where you go to get out of the whole chatty, google-eyed gushing sex kitten thing that you do out on the floor all the time. Even the girls on their cellphones breaking up with their boyfriends every day during shift change sound clinical and practiced. The only real raw emotion there is from girls who aren't making money, crouched by their lockers hissing curses into little piles of singles.Link to post, on Grace Undressed. Image borrowed from the Flickr stream of Cap'n Monky. (Thanks, Susannah Breslin)
Rose and I sat in front of the mirror and put our powder on. It seemed quiet, although it never actually is, with the stage music piped back here and the DJ on the mic hawking five-dollar you-call-em shots. Some people would be saying things right now, because some people show how much they care by saying things. Some people would want to know if she was still with her boyfriend and what does he think and are you OK and where are you getting it done? And maybe those people would be better than me in situations like this. I tend to try to show how much I care by saying as little as possible.
I wish I could let her know just by the quality of the silence that if she needs anything from me it's hers. We're not best friends or anything. Sometimes we sell dances together. Men like to see us entertwined, her slim frame and and spectacular breasts, my pale skin and substantial hips. I love the warmth of her skin and the light gold freckles she's powdering over now so meticulously.
On the floor, she is silly and bewitching, daffy smile and clownish gestures set off against the essential elegance of her -- her classical face, that serious lode of smoky black hair. She seduces me again and again, like she seduces everyone. I love Rose. But of course, there is no Rose. I don't really know this girl next to me, the girl who's legal name is in my phone. If I knew her, I would say more.
Weird that in blog terms the coolest job you can possibly have is being a stripper. Now I think about it it's a job people might venerate if they could, which combined with the feminist/prude controversy makes it a recipe for success. I mean, men want to know, undoubtedly, or at least the perverted ones (all of them). And women who are neither prudes nor feminists can look at it kind of liberatingly in a way, not that Xeni is exactly repressed.
Summer job found.
An excellent companion blog to Waiter Rant, and just as bleak.
What makes you think that feminists disapprove of strippers? Some do, some don't. I think there are more Camille Paglias than Andrea Dworkins these days.
Inverse Square, not every feminist disapproves of strippers and similar workers, have a read of "Defending Pornography" by Nadine Strossen.
Yes, that's good writing. A blog to checked out, for sure.
I don't think there's any environment more obtuse, embarrassing and pathetic than a strip club. I actually feel sorry for the men in them. How sad is that exchange of a wrinkled $20 for a peek at the "dancer's" naughty bits. It's about as erotic as watching a senior citizen being grifted.
Wouldn't the ones that do be very strictly classed as neo-feminists? Not that I'm looking to start a debate. Not that that'll stop one happenning.
Controversial, anyway.
Addendum: I'd start a debate over that though, Stharian. Those naughty bits posess powerful beauty, and if they aren't erotic then nothing is.
Wasn't it Mae West who said "the genitals ain't got no character"?
I thought it was, "Come up and see me sometime. I blog every evening."
^^^ Well she must have been talking out of her ass.
You should all be paying me for this.
#6 sounds jealous to me
Diablo Cody's "Candy Girl" is an excellent memoir (basically her first blog in published form) about stripping too.
Is this girl for real? Her writing is fantastic. She should know that great writing also "pays the rent".
#14--Great writing pays the rent? I'm happy if I can get it to buy me a cheap bottle of wine.
Not as well as stripping does, I'd wager.
Interesting blog. But, if like me you hate the anti-chronological order in the archives, forcing you to scroll down to the bottom of the page, scrolling up to find the title, reading the post, and then scrolling back up again to find the n-1th post, here's a Bookmarklet that reverses the order of posts in a page: http://pastebin.com/fae1eed3
...Hurmph. After reading some of her comments, I'm reminded of a gal who stripped around here in the mid-80s who wasn't all that attractive - in fact, where the chest was concerned, she was damn near androgynous! - but knew how to fake interest enough to hook in about a dozen regular customers who had money to blow. One day, the local communist propaganda rag, The Austin Chronicle, did a story on how tittie bars were now "Gentlemen's Clubs", and a girl could make $$$$ while still going to school *and* the IRS didn't get a dime of it. She was one of the gals interviewed, and when asked what was going through her mind while she did a dance for a customer, she responded with the following:
The guy could be having the largest hardon of his life, and the only thing going through my mind is what I need to put on my grocery list.
...Needless to say, her client list became almost nonexistent within a week of the story's publication. In one day she had five customers come up to her at the same time and tell her where she could put her grocery list. She saw her income reduced from $$$$ a week to $, and wound up having to quit and get a real job because she'd sunk her own boat so badly.
After reading this gal's blog, it wouldn't be surprising at all if she sinks her own ship as well in a similar manner...
She's currently deleting or hiding all of her blog entries.
It would seem that this blogger was not expecting traffic and has shut down all posts from the last two years.
bloody mammals
Boing Boing killed it! Well, I guess you always hurt the one you love. Unless you're not into S&M.
@ #1, Inverse Square:
"Weird that in blog terms the coolest job you can possibly have is being a stripper."
Who said being a stripper is cool? But blogs maintained by sex workers and others on the fringes are inherently fascinating since the expose the general public to a side of the business few people see/understand.
It also shows that there are minds behind these objectified bodies; I think that threatens people as well.
@ #22, Matt Sanderson:
If you go to the main page of her blog, you can see an explanation of what happened. She temporarily pulled posts just so she can double-check and make sure she's not exposing anyone who doesn't want to be exposed. Pretty reasonable. And ultimately if she did want to just pull the plug on the whole thing, that's her right as well.
Its odd. In that, personally speaking, (and I realize I'll probably be against the grain here, so before anyone hammers me be mindful that I am taking pains to indicate this purely how I feel and now how I think everyone else should live or think), but I'm in the camp that stripping/porn is debasing to both sides, but more so the stripper.
So, while I agree w/ the comment about how blogging may be cathartic for some sexworkers, I feel like I'm also justifying their existence... that by acknowledging them I'm giving legitimacy to something I'd prefer not to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know "oldest profession", pr0n ain't going anywhere... but I could say that about a lot of things where we make individual choices to show or withhold support to things we believe in.
This stuff conflicts me to no end. I'd legalize prostitution if I had the magic wand of power and I guess that stripping, et al, should be legal, but its just a product I wouldn't purchase and one that I think society would, for the most part, be better off without. But, that's naive and a bit misguided, in that I'm simply looking at the effect and not the cause.
Ok, I'll take my lumps now, lol. ;)
Honestly, all of you believe this? I guess it is kind of romantic - but just a little TOO convenient, isn't it? And the fevered response to it, deleting posts etc?
So it goes one of two ways:
1) Someone on or connected with Boing Boing has fabricated this to see where it will lead.
2) Someone saw Diablo Cody win an Oscar after starting a blog as a stripper. Hmmm. I wonder if lightning could strike twice?
I prefer 2) as the real answer, but really you've got to write a little more realistically to convince people this is for real - and have a better response prepared for when everyone comes a knockin'.
I call shenanigans - prove me wrong?
BTW - I quite like the writing, although I couldn't read a whole book of inelegant phrases like "daffy smile and clownish gestures set off against the essential elegance of her -- her classical face".
It's still better than I could manage however...
@Beneditor... given the links to all these precociously self-aware and literate strippers, I was wondering the same thing.
Interesting reading, interesting topic, interesting discussion... so. ;)
If she already posted it, it is too late. The internet is archived, and don't you forget it.
@18: Anyone who goes to a strip club thinking any of the dancers think otherwise is delusional. It's their job. You should assume that they care about you and your feelings about as much as the cashier at McDonald's does. That doesn't mean they won't put on a hell of a show for you, though. Suspension of disbelief, baby.
@27: Re: "precociously self-aware and literate strippers" - I have two close friends who were strippers, and both are literate, self-aware college graduates. Why are people always so quick to assume that dancers, porn stars, and sex workers are only in that line of work because they weren't smart enough to get a "real" job?
Looks like you freaked her out a little bit. Her subscribers went through the roof and she removed all her posts and is editing them for names and places.
Camille Paglia or Andrea Dworkin are our choices? Hurl-O-Rama. Paglia was an attention whore who didn't, I think, particularly like women. Much the same way that a lot of PETA people don't seem to particularly like animals. Paglia reminded me of that toddler on the playground who liked to pull her dress over her head, once she discovered that the boys would pay attention to her if she did.
How's about we get Susie Bright or Carol Queen or any of a dozen others as a standard bearer? Paglia? She's so over. And Dworkin? Oy.
Interesting that the blog posts got deleted. The writing is very noir, very stylized. Slick even. You can just about hear that smoky saxophone playing. Sorry I wasn't able to read more.
So I'm settling for reading the thread here. Boys talking about feminism, heh, that's always amusing.
I'm seriously creeped out by the story of the stripper who told the paper she wasn't actually sexually excited by her job and the reaction she got for doing so. Not so much that she lost customers, after all she popped the bubble of fantasy and the hard-ons went with it, but that a bunch of fucktards went up to her and angrily confronted her.
How infantile can you get? What spectacular egotism! Astounding that they'd be indignant that she wasn't actually aroused, especially because she "wasn't all that attractive" and didn't have large breasts. And the breast size would be a big issue to guys looking for a mommy substitute to give them their their lap dance.
Their maturity is on a par with guys who refer to women old enough to be working in strip bars as "girls". That is what poker players refer to as a tell.(Somebody had to throw a "Little Brother" reference in here somewhere.)
"She saw her income reduced from $$$$ a week to $, and wound up having to quit and get a real job because she'd sunk her own boat so badly."
So stripping is not a real job? I guess it is supposed to be one of those wonderful oh-my-gosh-this-is-so-great-I-can't-believe-they-pay-me-to-do-this kinds of gigs? That line of thought is another tell.
Heh, yeah, amusing.
Amen, sister.
"Boys talking about feminism" -- Yes, that's always good for laughs. Almost as funny as Republicans expressing their deep concern for the common man. And yeah, if there is someone more narcissistic and self absorbed than Paglia I don't know who it could be.
I'm one of those who thinks there are valid reasons why such things as stripping, prostitution, drugs and all the other vices are labeled as such. 10,000 years of cultural evolution should account for something.
good point Noen,but should this evolution not make us aware that practitioners of these "vices" are part of our same human heritage,not some evil other to be blamed or feared?
If you are interested in writings from more sex professionals (especially those that aren't afraid someone is reading it) check out the ladies and gents associated with the Sex Workers Art Show.
I also suggest going to one of their performances, because they are hilarious, mind opening, and uplifting.
You shouldn't be surprised that someone can write intelligently about their life and experiences.
valid reasons why such things as stripping, prostitution, drugs and all the other vices are labeled as such
Vices and sins are not universal truths.
"my pale skin and substantial hips." From the picture I'd say quite substantial indeed.
Well sure, of course. Her blog is down for now but I just note how empty and hollow her relationships are from the excerpt above. Yeah, that's what happens when you sell yourself. In order to survive emotionally she had to construct an impenetrable wall but that has further consequences. You become alienated from yourself and detached from reality. Prostitutes and strippers construct a false persona to deal with their clients. The woman who was thinking of her grocery list while stripping is hardly unique. But once you do that to yourself it pollutes every other part of you.
The men are no better. By choosing to go to a strip club or hire a prostitute you debase every other woman in your life. Men also try to wall off what they are doing and protect themselves. They simply externalize it instead of internalizing it like most women do. And so you have red light districts and seedy clubs or back street alleys. These are just attempts to separate parts of one's self out and prevent it from contaminating the rest. It never lasts and it always ends badly.
Why is it more amusing to watch uninformed people talk about feminism if they're male?
What valid reasons are there that cultural evolution should "account for something" by dissolving something that has been enjoyable for 10,000 years?
And why, I join the people asking, shouldn't a stripper be eloquent? Diablo Cody does indeed make me want to kill myself, but the conspiracy Beneditor suggests seems a little bit mean.
"Boys talking about feminism, heh, that's always amusing." and then 'Their maturity is on a par with guys who refer to women old enough to be working in strip bars as "girls"'
Better go tuck that in, your hypocrisy is showing.
Oh and girls talking about feminism is about as amusing as astrologers talking about astrology.
Isn't it a little oppressive by any account to find amusement in any specific gender doing anything?
Camille Paglia or Andrea Dworkin are our choices?
I chose them because they represent the most obvious extremes and because people have actually heard of them. Attention whores get attention.
Boys talking about feminism, heh, that's always amusing.
You'd prefer a world where men aren't concerned about women's issues? Try Saudi Arabia. I promise that you won't have to listen to men discussing feminism there.
Their maturity is on a par with guys who refer to women old enough to be working in strip bars as "girls".
Odd. You just referred to the men in this thread as boys. Get your story straight. I'm 50. I don't like being called a boy.
"..I just note how empty and hollow her relationships are from the excerpt above. Yeah, that's what happens when you sell yourself. In order to survive emotionally she had to construct an impenetrable wall but that has further consequences."
That sounds like most menial jobs I've ever had. I dunno about you, but I never really 'connected' with any of the other dishwashers or burger-flippers I ever worked with, we didn't have meaningful conversations and had nothing more than some shared-hatred-for the-job to call a relationship.
Whilst I'm certainly not condoning miserable working conditions for anyone, lots of jobs require you to suck it up and do something you'd really rather not do. At least strippers get a decent wage. There are plenty of people out there having their souls sucked out of them daily, for an awful lot less money.
"Prostitutes and strippers construct a false persona to deal with their clients."
Ever worked in any service industry? Most service jobs require you to leave yourself at home, and come to work with happy-beaver attitude. Obviously prostitution is the height of this, but it's not the only shitty job the makes you stifel yourself all day, every day.
"The men are no better. By choosing to go to a strip club or hire a prostitute you debase every other woman in your life.. ..These are just attempts to separate parts of one's self out and prevent it from contaminating the rest. It never lasts and it always ends badly."
Never? Always? How so? Only if they are conflicted in what they are doing, and if they are doing it in the first place, the conflict probably comes from other people deciding they are doing a bad thing, rather than their own feelings of such.
If the world wasn't selling us sex on the one hand, and shouting at us for taking it on the other, there probably wouldn't be so much conflict. Maybe we should just acknowledge that this thing (and others) have been going on for the 10,000 years mentioned above, and will continue for 10,000 more. Instead of trying to pretend we can stop it, start giving the workers the dignity of doing a legal job, with unions and benefits, and protection from bad bosses, bad clients and dangerous situations.. like any other profession.
""Boys talking about feminism, heh, that's always amusing.""
Please.
Cheers, Arkizzle, I wanted to say the same thing. I don't think superficial relationships are unique to sex workers: if anything, I think superficial relationships are pretty much the norm in every culture I've ever lived in. Sad but true.
Work always sucks, so what is unique to sex workers? Well, what do sex workers sell? I suppose a stripper is selling an image of her or his body--his or her body is vacated of its other qualities, its human subjectivity, in the process of commodification. This is demeaning, no two ways about it. But what is different about that and the service economy? If you're working at McDonald's, you essentially sell your ability to act like a robot. You get treated like shite, and it's an affront to human dignity that anyone would ever call it a decent way for someone to spend their time, let alone say it's only worth $7 an hour, or whatever they pay. But you have to do it, or else...unpleasantness. Or you can live off the dole. £45 a week to be converted straight into beer and fags. Brilliant system that.
It is true that men tend to hijack feminist discussions to talk about something else, and this is a perfect example. But in my mind, I can generalise the conditions of sex workers to the condition of workers as a whole. It isn't fun to have to work, but there it is.
"That sounds like most menial jobs I've ever had."
Sex work is not menial labor. What I am trying to suggest is that it is debasing because of how we are made psychologically. And some smart guy once pointed out that any system where you cannot enjoy the fruits of your labor is basically a corrupt system that will ultimately collapse. I think he had a point even if I am not sure I care for his remedy.
"Instead of trying to pretend we can stop it, start giving the workers the dignity of doing a legal job, with unions and benefits, and protection from bad bosses, bad clients and dangerous situations.. like any other profession."
That will never work, it can't work because the world isn't like that. Besides, the moment you legitimize it you take away the very thing that makes it so alluring. For many people it must be dirty, ugly, squalid sex. That's the whole point.
Sex is always more about power than it is about procreation so empowering women to make their own choices would be better. But I've seen Carol Queen's act and it didn't impress me in the least. It was just another con, just another means to sell books and masturbate in public.
"Odd. You just referred to the men in this thread as boys."
Anti, I did that very intentionally, to make the point. Hadn't intended to hurl any rotten eggs your way.
I'm all for everybody to be interested in everybody's rights. I'm all for conversations and dialogs and what all. But when guys get in a group, they usually aren't particularly interested in what women have to say. I can think of plenty of exceptions, but culturally that is the deal.
Go to some random even that gets people together, say a block party, and watch the dynamics. Men group with men. It is a very interesting thing to be a woman and to try to take part in those discussions. Women group with women because over the years they learn that they won't be listened to, will be talked over, aren't particularly welcome in the men's groupings. Go, observe, see for yourself.
No, I have no problem with men discussing sexual equality. And I don't believe all the posters here are coming from the same place. My mistake was combining comments on different posts, so you read my cut at the strip story as a cut at your post.
And you made a right smart shift into defense right on up to offense. This kind of thing happens on message boards all the time. One can't hear the voice, one can't see the face, one can't judge the emotion. And things escalate.
But that "try Saudi Arabia" line was something else. Shades of "America, love it or leave it" only uglier. Figure that would fix my little red wagon, finding myself in a place where I had fewer rights than a stray dog does here? I mean really, where do I get off complaining, look how much better I have it than those women over there.
Ever suggest to a black man who noted ignorance or arrogance among whites discussing race issues that he try South Africa during the Apartheid years? Hmmm? No?
Didn't think so.
For many people it must be dirty, ugly, squalid sex. That's the whole point.
Then wouldn't that satisfy you by ending it?
And, no, it wouldn't. There are places where prostitution is legal and it still occurs; evidently, those 'many' people are not numerous enough for their absence to make the sex trade unattractive.
Sex is always more about power than it is about procreation so empowering women to make their own choices would be better.
Funny. I thought in today's society it was about either pleasure, emotional connection, or pleasure. Women can make their own choices. Some go into the sex trade. Yeah, some are sucked in, but some people are also sucked into being drug shills or killing people or doing a low-wage job because they failed in acadmeics.
But when guys get in a group, they usually aren't particularly interested in what women have to say. I can think of plenty of exceptions, but culturally that is the deal.
Wait. You think there's a problem with the fact that men group with men and women with women?
I cannot be the only female around here to assert that men and women are -different-. Different plumbing, different genes, different hormones, different interests. When women are talking women things, men aren't welcome. When men are talking men things, women aren't welcome. If you want to talk men things, you are perfectly welcome, but you MUST accept that the group dynamic is going to change.
We are EQUAL we are not the SAME.
Women can NOT do anything men can do. This does not make us inferior, we should take pride in our differences. Women more emotional (in general) than men. Men are stronger and more protective (in general) than women.
We fill different evolutionary niches. We're different.
And for the record- I get along in those conversations with men rather well. I'm more 'masculine' in my identity than 'feminine' in certain mannerisms; yesterday, there were a ton of people at my apartment's pool. Women gathered, talked, tanned. Men threw around a football and talked. I was in the pool playing with the children and tossing a mini football with one of the elder kids.
Guy playing football with another guy outside the pool- ball goes into the water, I pitch it out, hop out, start playing catch with the men. Now I'm not a very good throw or catch, but hey, we talked politics and gas prices and the war and what work they were planning to do on their car, and never was a mention MADE of the fact that I was female except for someone mocking one of the others and saying "Hell, a teenage girl throws better than you!"
My mom was really freaked out by it and suggested foul thoughts. The thing is, its not. You can get along with men if you're on their wave length, and a majority of women are not.
Then again, there are conversations / situations that a group of men will ALWAYS act different with a woman in, and vice versa. We don't have the same experiences, we don't have the same genes, we don't think the same (for the most part, certain people always excluded).
This is humanity. Stop being sexist, it makes feminism look bad.
Pipenta,
Your comments are usually thoughtful and helpful. The one that I responded to was not. It expressed nothing but your rage and it did it in a way that some of us found arrogant, demeaning and combative. You mocked men for having the audacity to even discuss feminism and you got pissed off when you were busted for it. I reject your scorn.
the problem with the sexes is that they are composed of people. I have yet to meet one credit to their gender who could always keep their stupid, weak human fallibility under control.
"That will never work, it can't work because the world isn't like that. Besides, the moment you legitimize it you take away the very thing that makes it so alluring. For many people it must be dirty, ugly, squalid sex. That's the whole point."
I'm sorry Noen, but from the earlier "Never/Always" and now "it must be dirty, ugly, squalid sex" you are simply pushing your own agenda and have swapped facts for blunt, broad-strokes.
If legalized sex-work "will never work" how is there still a sex-industry in the Netherlands? Not only Amsterdam (where it is driven by tourists and first-timers, but the rest if the country, where the normal Joe gets his?)
How is there a sex industy in the UK, Germany, Belgium, France, Canada, Denmark, Australia, Israel (etc. etc.)?
And all the places where it is officially illegal (to various degrees) but where the authorities turn a blind eye? Nevada, Thailand, Japan, etc. etc...
Seriously Noen, WTF?
Oh, Tenn, you said most of what I was saying..
Sorry to repeat..
who here really knows what sex the other posters actually are?
You gave specific examples, Ark, you'd get a big red A on your paper as opposed to my study in generalizations.
who here really knows what sex the other posters actually are?
You caught me. All women on the internet are men, and all children FBI agents. I'm a male agent, turning in my badge now.
Every time I hear the 'women are men, children are fbi' line, I just crack up, brilliant :)
and the cephalopods are just what?
beyond hope of comprehension
my point exactly
Oooh, I know this one. See ever since I started doing a blog I've been collecting links that I occasionally whip out like cards at a bridge tournament. So anyway, I stumbled across this the other day, which is a story about a disabled woman who had some serious net presence back in the day who turned out to be a middle aged man just wanting to see what all that was like.
I guess it originally comes from a book by Sherry turkle, who is this really cool net theorist.
Anyway, since you asked: http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2008/05/the_strange_case_of_.html
"prominent New York psychiatrist in his early fifties who was engaged in a bizarre, all-consuming experiment to see what it felt like to be a female, and to experience the intimacy of female friendship."
Wow, that's interesting Scott!
I've masqueraded as a male on forums and sites. Actually, in my earlier years when I was a part of a medieval - fantasy text based roleplay, it never occurred to me to say that I was female- I thought my username gave it away- and it turned out everyone thought I was a guy. I've been told I have a now recognizably female 'voice' even on the internet...
but I'm still tempted to make another account and see how many of you I could fool into thinking I was a new person.
I hope none of you take it personally, but I have trouble thinking of internet people as 'real' people, in a way. Besides which the internet does tend to be a bit of a narrow dimension for human interaction. In my opinion. Not that I'm talking shit on the internet.
That said, glad to be of service, and I would invite you guys to my blog, but it would be a bit like showing up to a party while everything's still being set up. Just embarrassing for all involved.
I have trouble thinking of internet people as 'real' people, in a way.
I'm not. This isn't the real me. This is the part of me which does not speak quickly, which has time to meter her thoughts, which can look up facts to be certain she is correct. This is a humbler, kinder, smarter me- and as this me isn't very humble, kind, or smart (that doesn't count as humility, it's self-deprecation, also a flaw), you're only left to reel in horror at who the real me is.
nahhh, warts and all , baby. Feel the horror.
(Stay)
A-a-a-a-ah, just a little bit longer
(Please)
Please, please, please, please
Tell me you're going to
Now, how your daddy don't mind
And your mommy don't mind
If we have another dance
Yeah, just one more
One more time
Oh, won't you stay
Just a little bit longer
Please let me hear
You say that you will
Say you will
Won't you press your sweet lips
To mine
Won't you say you love me
All of the time
(Stay)
Just a little bit longer
(Please)
Please, please, please, please
Tell me you're going to
Come on, come on, come on and ... yey-yey-yeh
Come on, come on, come on and stay-yey-yey-yeh
Come on, come on, come on and stay, woops!
Come on, come on, come on...
Hey Tenn, I'm a male agent too!
Back to the blog for a second, for those of you who keep saying you can't read it, click here then click on the cached links. All hail the web-spiders.
I've often wondered about that... when someone belatedly realizes they have exposed themselves beyond intent,is it right to look? The curious urge is enormously gratified when you look - but as time goes by, I find more satisfaction in not looking. Can I, in all good conscience, proselytize to the younger - having already passed through that?
This isn't the real me.
This is the real me. There isn't any other me.
I don't deliberately act a better person, to add to my earlier words. I just make a lot less sharp abrasive comments. Kudos to those of you who manage to not be different on the interwebs.
Taku-san, Agent- she is less bothered by exposing herself than by possibly exposing someone else. I think I'll wait until she puts them up again, though.
It's a really really interesting subject though. Like you get all these wonky theorists banging on about how identity is just a construct, and you're like, oh yeah, somebody stole my construct last week and now I declared bankruptcy, but with the internet, in message boards and things, identity is more tangibly a construct. You can essentially be whoever you want to be, within the bounds of the internet. I'm not entirely sure that's a good thing.
how can we be "more" than what we are? If I can imagine it, am I not it?
Takuan,
aren't you conflating the 'imag[e]nary' and the 'real'?
One major difference between one's meatself and online self is that silicon never forgets. If (okay when) I'm an ornery jerk to my friends/wife/dog I can apologize. The present me takes the place of cranky yesterday me in meatmemory and all is more or less as it was.
Online is different. It doesn't go away. Want to see me getting my ass handed to me 12 years ago on a Usenet board? It's just as fresh as if it was yesterday.
That makes a difference. Maybe several differences, and now I'm not sure what it means...
Tenn
Then wouldn't that satisfy you by ending it?
No Tenn, I'm not looking for that, I'm just trying to explain and I'm trying to figure it out myself also. I am really not trying to moralize, I'm making a pragmatic argument. That is, people who do certain things suffer not because they are bad people or even that some behaviors are intrinsically bad. They suffer because we don't work that way. Or in some cases because that's what they're looking for.
I was just pointing out that from what I read here her life is sad and empty. Her relationships shallow and superficial. That's her choice I suppose but it needn't be that way. Legalizing sex work won't change any of this.
I've been there and I never met any happy, well adjusted prostitutes or junkies or winos or other assorted social outcasts. They are miserable but we won't end their misery by making prostitution or heroin legal.
arkizzle
If legalized sex-work "will never work" how is there still a sex-industry in the Netherlands?
It "works" for someone but not for the women involved. It is a very big mistake to romanticize the Dutch. They bring in young Eastern Block girls by the truckload on false pretenses who sadly find themselves indentured to a brothel. I fail to see how being a sex slave is an improvement.
Tenn
We fill different evolutionary niches. We're different.
We are not different species. I claim we are more alike than we are different. What differences there are are mostly learned. The differences that are left are mostly due to pragmatic realities. The shear fact of owning a uterus or of having testosterone in your system makes a huge difference in how you relate to the world. I categorically reject that there is some "essential" difference between males and females.
we don't have the same genes
Yes we do.
we don't think the same
Yes we do.
I thought in today's society it was about either pleasure, emotional connection, or pleasure.
What drives pleasure? Power. What is the worst thing that can happen when you seek out your pleasure? Getting what you want.
arkizzle
Seriously Noen, WTF?
It seems to happen a lot that I am not able to make myself understood. I don't know why that is.
"Seriously Noen, WTF?
It seems to happen a lot that I am not able to make myself understood. I don't know why that is."
I have a suspicion you're understood perfectly.
I am not so sure.
Anti,
I repeat, I was lobbing bombs at the fellow who told the stripper story, not you. If my comment generalized, it was sloppy of me.
What I'm laying on you is not scorn. I don't blame you for Paglia. Her, I despise.
And again, I ask you, you feel solid and justified about your Saudi Arabia comment?
Pip
please, this is unseemly. It distresses me to see you two at odds.
I know it's her shoes, but every time I look at that picture all I see is a Jawa smacking a droid.
now that you mention it
It's a Jawa smacking K-9
I had no idea it was shoes.
The shear fact of owning a uterus or of having testosterone in your system makes a huge difference in how you relate to the world. I categorically reject that there is some "essential" difference between males and females.
You just proved my point. Testosterone production / uterus / etc are CAUSED by different genes. You and I have a pair of X chromosomes; Antinous and Takuan have XY. That is -genetic-.
The 'essential' difference is that we relate to the world differently. 'Relating to the world' is a big part of what I meant by 'we think differently'.
There is a difference in how men and women think and act because they are different. Some of it is -certainly- learned, but not all of it. We do fill evolutionary niches that are different- you and I the child-bearers, the men the protectors.
I'm not going to bear children or properly fill my 'niche'; but then I'm a lot different from most females.
I don't think men should mistreat women, but equally I don't think they should be expected to accept women into their folds at block party or anything else.
I hope I don't sound abrasive, that isn't my intention at all. I enjoy this discussion.
I don't think power drives pleasure, though. It doesn't drive mine.
To the people oddly against this blog, what's your opinion of stories being made of pimps, players and others who are at the top of the food chain in exploiting women?
If there were a pimp blog, would any of the knee-jerks be jerking their knees at them?
I'm chiming in late here, I know. I haven't been able to follow the whole conversation but this line from Noen caught my eye, then Tenn reminded me of it:
"What drives pleasure? Power. What is the worst thing that can happen when you seek out your pleasure? Getting what you want".
To me, pleasure (whether physical or otherwise) has NOTHING to do with power. In fact some of the most pleasurable moments in life come along with complete surrender to something. And I really don't understand the bit about the worst thing that can happen when you seek pleasure, is to receive it.
What am I missing?
Jake, I'm not in 100% agreement with the power statement, but if you choose to surrender yourself, you are still in control of yourself—and hold power over yourself—by allowing that to happen.
Fair enough Jack, I understand about choosing to surrender, but take an example (and just for grins, leave the sexual aspect out of it for a minute). I am sitting on a bench at the beach, my wife is snuggled up against me, I have a nice cool drink, a delightful breeze is blowing in some lovely, exotic scent and I'm watching the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen. Pure pleasure, for a few moments at least. Where does "power" come into it? I'm just a passive receptor who happened to be at the right place at the right time.
As educated as a lot of strippers may be; or appear to be. I'll still feel like I've failed my daughter if she ends up on the pole.
That's the only problem I have with it; what if it were my child doing it.
Two things she can't be when she grows up, a blogger and a stripper. ;)
Jake, the power aspect comes from you choosing not to stand up and leave.
(sneaky, Tenn, but I do not even confirm having hemoglobin)
I suppose "choice" might be a more palatable word than "power"
in re:this whole difference of perception of what "pleasure" is.i think jake and noen are both accurate.there is pleasure derived from sensate experience;on a basic animal level all your needs being met=happy.
people have other "needs" as well though.needs created by someone becoming inured to certain stimuli.or having zero experience of certain other stimuli.or developing associations between things that aren't actually related outside of that someone's perception.and because of those needs,sex can be about power.if operating from the premise that certain situations in sexwork are abusive,then yes,the pleasure being sought in those situations is no longer about (sensate)sex.it is about power.
and i agree with pipenta that the saudi arabia compare/contrast is irrelevant and unkind.
Tenn
You and I appear to be speaking in different languages. I'm not sure how to overcome this.
Jake0748
"Where does "power" come into it?"
I'm sorry, I misspoke. It is one's position relative to power that is important.
"I'm just a passive receptor"
There.
Jack
"If there were a pimp blog, would any of the knee-jerks be jerking their knees at them?"
I wouldn't change a word.
Noen, you basically just ignored my whole comment there.
I gave plenty of examples of countries where prostitution is legal and "works" and you reduced it to "It is a very big mistake to romanticize the Dutch", and then straw-manned me (sorry Ant) by suggesting all legal prostitution is performed by slaves. That is simply untrue.
Frankly I'm not romanticizing anything, I mentioned the Netherlands because I had lived there and had experience of some of the trade there (not as a customer). I can tell you that although there are plenty of Eastern Europeans in the trade (as in all of Europe), it is certainly not slaves who dominate (actually there's a much higher proportion of slaves in places like Ireland, where it is completely illegal).
In fact, slaves are more likely to be found in illegal back-room brothels, where they just have to perform for the client, rather than (like free-workers) having to also sell themselves, be in charge of their plot, take money, arrange clients etc. For a large part, the sex-slave-industry is kept going by heroin addiction, keeping the women docile and constantly in need of a fix, those girls are not given free rein over their own bodies or clients.
In many places in the Netherlands/Belgium/Australia this is simply not the case, the women meet you and haggle prices at their own front-door/plot-door. There may be a co-op, or indeed a boss/madam, not usually a pimp as we know it, let alone a whip-cracker.
Of course the slave-industry exist there (and everywhere probably), but not in the all pervasive way you stated above as the-only-way-it-can-happen.
I think you have some facts, but are being far too broad in your opinions. You can't say how things are for everybody, and that is just what you are doing. All people, men or women, are so different from each other, that it's unreasonable to think you can tell everybody why they do a thing, and what the consequences for such a thing are going to be for their psyche. People do things for myriad reasons.
You can't know it all, and have to accept that there are limits to your opinions and experience.
--
I'm done with this portion of this thread now, because I don't think you are going to respond in any fairer a manner than you have already, I just wanted to clarify my thoughts and I don't want to get into it any further.
Dear Noen
difficult