A feature in the most recent issue of
RADAR is about a possible government program that tracks citizens' behavior (online and otherwise) to compile a list of people to detain in case of martial law.
According to a senior government official who served with high-level security clearances in five administrations, "There exists a database of Americans, who, often for the slightest and most trivial reason, are considered unfriendly, and who, in a time of panic, might be incarcerated. The database can identify and locate perceived 'enemies of the state' almost instantaneously." He and other sources tell Radar that the database is sometimes referred to by the code name Main Core. One knowledgeable source claims that 8 million Americans are now listed in Main Core as potentially suspect. In the event of a national emergency, these people could be subject to everything from heightened surveillance and tracking to direct questioning and possibly even detention.
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I knew it! But, of course just by saying that now I am on the Main Core list... So, really I ought to say it's not true!!! NO! I deny it!!! (Now I REALLY am on the list.)
Doesn't surprise me,
Probably includes every BoingBoing user!
if (($url =~ /boingboing\.net/)) { $maincore->add(identify_user_from_ip()); }Yay! I am on another list! Gonna go out and buy more Glazers now!
As long as it can't talk to skynet....
Seriously though, this is chillingly scary, and sadly, if true, not at all surprising.
Great. I'm sure I'm on that list because of this.
I asked about this a few months ago on DailyKos under the heading "How many Americans are going to camp?" It dealt with the use of the concentration camps being build in the US and whether they would be used for "unfriendly" American citizens.
Question: Would election of a Democrat president be enough of an upsetting event to invoke martial law?
Hey, waitaminute. Cory is supposed to be keeping us informed about the developing police state issues. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH CORY!?!?
"In the event of a national emergency, the executive branch simply assumes these powers"—the powers to collect domestic intelligence and draw up detention lists, for example—"if Congress doesn't explicitly prohibit it. It's really up to Congress to put these things to rest, and Congress has not done so."
Even if Congress does get up the courage, I believe the result of Congressional action would be a signing statement from Bush: "The executive branch is exempt from this legislation."
I'm a little uneasy that a government who can redefine "torture" can also be a government who can redefine "terrorist."
OH NOES1!!1! THEY HAS LIST!
The mere presence of such a list should cause fear, and should definitely make you think twice about standing up for your rights.
In the case of a bona fide national emergency, how much of the actual resources available would be dedicated to rounding up 8 million American citizens? Or rather, in the case of a FAKE national emergency, how many of the people not on the list would stand for that many disappearances?
#6: I have wondered the same thing myself, although if the past elections are any indication, it would have to be by a margin too great for the GOP to doctor.
"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Pastor Martin Niemoeller's poem, inscribed on a stone in New England Holocaust Memorial, about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.
they don't have to actually jail and/or kill everyone on the list. Like the No-Fly list, it can be applied when needed. Even if you aren't actually on the list.
I suppose the obvious question is: Is this true? How do we find out? Is this a different secret program than the stories of "camps" and "trains outfitted with shackles" that were circulating right after Waco? Does anyone understand the logistics of incarcerating 8 million people?
@Brouhaha: I knew I was hitting into that quote, which I don't take lightly, and see as a cautionary tale. But I think asking ourselves the question: "When would I speak up?" brings awareness and might prevent a repeat of the past. I, for one, am no German intellectual. I believe in active resistance, government accountability, and protecting our "freedoms". Which is why I'm probably on the list.
Don't forget that Kellogg, Root and Brown landed contracts about two-three years ago to build detention camps on USA soil for "immigration emergencies and other future projects." I will testify that was on their home page; they are quite proud of their concen- um, detention camps.
Paranoids are mentally ill. Pointing out what the Neocons and their fellow travellers are really up to is just pointing out the obvious. They want to round people up and make them go away if we are attacked again. NO dissenting voices. And will America take it? They took Gitmo in stride. Hell, it's a background for a comedy movie. Believe me, they won't care about rounding up the "liberals" during "wartime". The bad guys will have the guns, and they might have you. Even if they only round up a few dozen or hundred, the shock will shut everyone up -- not to mention the control they have over the internet backbone and the traffic thereon. In 2001, only a few newspeople were fired for not supporting the war. The others understood and shut up. This isn't augury. We've already watched this work.
They killed about 100 people under torture in Gitmo. Probably innocent people, most of them. No one cares. Mainstream news people don't bother to remember the slaughter in Cuba, so they are now unpeople. We can be too.
a few years ago an "emergency measures law" passed.
If congress were say, blowed up real good, guess who takes utter power?
anyone who thinks american fascism will arrive one day when they round up 8 million citizens needs to conduct some experiments with frogs and boiling water.
@Takuan:
Yup. The emergency measures law was one of many bricks laid down in succession since 2001. Under a state of emergency, the executive takes total control of... everything. Congress doesn't have to blow up: the law they themselves passed *removes them from power* as long as the executive cares to maintain an emergency exists. He/She will command the National Guard, the internet backbones, all media, you name it. It's called a "dictator". Do recall that the White House actually discussed, internally, suspending the 2004 elections... or at least some of the neocons did.
Okay, my turn at the quotebox:
"When fascism come to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." -Alexis de Tocqueville (1835)
The groundwork for fascism in America is already in place. My only hope would be that ordinary people will realize that losing their jobs over speaking out against injustice is the least of their worries. If this country is put under martial law, be prepared to lose EVERYTHING in the defense of your rights. That warm house and steady job will be the first things to go.
"Just who is on this list? All registered members of BoingBoing"
hehe. It would be funny if it said that.
Those fences they've been building along the borders have not been to keep illegal immigrants out, they've been to keep folks in. 9-11 was an inside job. Any close and open minded examination of the all of the facts inevitably leads to this conclusion. Keep speaking out and non-violently protesting! If we continue to get the truth out peacefully, then everybody ends up on their "list." What can they do then?
*puts on my V for Vendetta mask*
Prescott Bush is finally about to succeed.
rhetorical question, right? We've already seen the prototype, "kill 'em all (in this case blacklist) and let god sort 'em out thinking laid bare in the "do not fly list"
Its the United States Government trying to do this. This is the same organization that cannot get your tax information mailed to your most current address.
Let me give you an example of just how bad the U.S. Government is at collecting "security related" information:
I have an associate with a relatively high level security clearance. When they were doing his clearance, they brought up all kinds of obscure crap from his credit history, squirmed over inaccurate police reports relevant to someone else by the same name (different birth date), but didn't know or have on record that he had worked in a foreign country for a year (legally), and didn't make note of the fact that he had been convicted of a felony.
"When fascism come to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Alexis de Tocqueville (1835)
Prescient stuff for 1835!
Here is a discussion of the origins of this quote:
http://shii.org/knows/Fascism_comes_wrapped_in_the_flag
All,
Aileinduinn is completely correct.
The idea that integrated government DBs could track the movement of 8 mil different people in realtime is giving Big Brother WWWAAAYYY too much credit.
To the contrary, I think if most people on this site actually saw the state of the USG's capabilities in this field, they would be appalled; not by its invasiveness, but by its inepitiude.
There's been a list since WW1, when a young draft-dodging librarian from the Library of Congress, John E. Hoover, took the Dewey Decimal System over to the Justice Department's Bureau of Investigation and starting collecting the names of subversive and seditious individuals, which he added to and kept up to date for 53 years. Since his death in 1972 the list has been revised and enlarged by a number of successors, its size ebbing and flowing with the political currents of the times, and must now be the great mother of all shit lists.
If you are over thirty and you are not on this list, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
And yet, the liberals keep trying to take our guns away. Thanks, guys, that really helps.
Oh, look. A nascent gun control debate. That should be fascinating and groundbreaking.
'liberals' and 'guns' in the same sentence. SHOTS!!
the accuracy or completeness or competence of administration isn't the issue. Now they HAVE a list. "Why was he/she taken away?". "On the list". "Why wasn't he hired?" "On the list". Etc, etc. etc.
The list should not be permitted in the first place.
mercy Ross! I'm gonna go blind!
I am a liberal and I'm taking your guns because I want them all for myself.
Well, there's no getting rid of the list now. Do away with this one and there will immediately be another. The only way to protect those Listed is to all join them. If everyone is on the list, then nobody is.
I remember when the Supreme Court (I think) decided that everyone had a right to access to their FBI file. It was said that if you requested your file and there wasn't one, they would open a file on you because you must be up to something they had overlooked. I like the idea of there now being so many FBI files that it is no distinction at all.
Phikus
9-11 was an inside job
No, it wasn't.
http://www.debunking911.com/index.html
There are two forces at play here. One, the authoritarians who feel they must control everything and everyone. Two, the fear mongers who panic at the slightest growl from Dick Cheney. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
What will happen? No one knows. There are a lot of frightening signs but there are just as many hopeful signs too.
Karl Rove and George Bush are selling fear.
Naomi Wolf is selling fear.
Alex Jones is selling fear.
Fox News is selling fear.
The Daily Kos is selling fear.
Don't buy it. It doesn't keep well and stinks pretty bad. Try to look for someone selling you sobriety. It lasts and lasts and is very satisfying. None of this means we aren't in for some tough times, I think we are.
On the other hand, all bets are off if the aliens land on the White House lawn.
(thirsty..) LIBERALGUNSLIBERALGUNS!! ahhhhh......
I want to confiscate all your guns so I can take them home and have sex with them. Don't worry, they will returned to you... a little more "worthy".
Is this list any different from the one that includes all the FBI files from the 50s, 60s and 70s? I've been on a list for a loooong time.
our names have value. I think we should sue them if they are using our names to make their list. What's a fair rent for using a name for someone's meal ticket list?
They can have my name when they pry it out of my cold dead fingers.
Which could be shortly, considering the ill advised combination of ethanol and high voltage this evening.
ah relax! the shock can't stop your heart if you're already limp. Have another!
The lists are shared by all interested agencies, not always knowingly, of course; there is no secrecy among people who collect secrets. The insane no-fly list is an example of throwing all the lists into one pot and stirring.
If you're not on the list, I shamelessly paraphrase myself, then you're doing something wrong.
NOEN is right. Fear stinks. Stay calm. But resist.
*Ywn*. Cll m whn th Gstp cms. plc MG BSH S GNG T BCM DCTTR ND T BBS rghly n th sm ctgry s th ppl tht r ttrly cnvncd tht th wrld s gng t nd n _fll_n_dt_hr_.
Lk, th mrcn systm s xtrmly strng whn t cms t dfndng dmcrcy. Ys ys, y cn cry MG BT HT CRPRTNS, bt t dsn't chng th fct tht whvr wns th lctn wns, nd whvr lss lss. Any president trying to end elections would have his ass dragged out first by the police, then by the secret service, then (if all else failed, it wouldn't but lets play devils advocate) by the military that swears and oath to the constitution, NOT to the president.
Besides, even if the police, the secret service, and the military spontaniously went insane, it wouldn't change the fact that the majority of the American population is armed to the teeth. Btwn hpp lbrl mt shlds (h yh gys, y pcflly prtst n th frnt f th mrch) nd crzy gn ttng rd ncks (w s gn' t sht rslvs prs--dnt!) th d tht mssvly npplr nd htd prsdnt s gng t hld fw mlln ppl n dtntn, mch lss sspnd lctn s t bsrd t vn wst smrk n.
on a happier note; if the American military is in tatters and exhausted,is this a good time for the USA to use a small tactical nuclear weapon? It could be deployed through a client like Israel if need be, to draw out the revelation of the ultimate author and thereby forestall knee-jerk retaliation by other great nuclear powers. This would accomplish several purposes: forcing other players to accept that nukes were back in the game after 63 years and the exhaustion of the conventional US military was "not a problem", give justification for declaration of emergency powers and election suspension, and finally;keep the cheney gang out of jail.
This list could be a part of it.
They'll only nab the idiot dissidents that actually report for jury duty when they get that little postcard in the mail..
On the flipside, though, if you get locked up after the shit hits the fan, at least you'll be safe from the thousands of businesses that have a green light to use lethal force to protect their assets:
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/11/report_fbi_deputizes_23_000_business
http://www.infragard.net/
BB should join and post reports daily
Rindan,
the American system is extremely strong when it comes to defending democracy.
Do you base that on the McCarthy era or our overthrow of the Iranian democracy to install the Shah? Or perhaps some other shining moment from our history as the leader of the free world?
whoever wins the election wins
Were you not alive in 2000 when we got a president who was not popularly elected?
the idea that a massively unpopular and hated president is going to hold a few million people in detention, much less suspend election is too absurd to even waste a smirk on.
There are a few million people in detention, mostly on minor drug charges. Habeas corpus has been suspended. Halliburton is building detention facilities.
*Yawn*
If you're that bored, don't let us keep you. If you have any goal other than hearing yourself pontificate, try adopting a pleasanter tone.
@ #43
Didn't NYC do something like this a dozen or so years ago. They sent postcards to people with arrest warrants telling them they won money, or a TV or a boat or something???
They'll only nab the idiot dissidents that actually report for jury duty when they get that little postcard in the mail.
They issue bench warrants where I live. They take jury duty seriously.
Have any of you seen the American Community Survey?
http://www.census.gov/acs/www/index.html
You will get it eventually, and even the ACLU says you have to fill it out under penalty of possible incarceration!
It is an interim social information census survey.It is NOT the decennial Census.
Check it out and look at the questions is asks you.
Incredibly invasive...one question actually asks if anyone in your household has difficulty dressing or bathing.
so If you don't answer it, or refuse to be moved by their hired phone thugs then the gov't has the legal right to punish you for not giving them information...for refusing to essentially speak..for exercising your freedom of speech!!!
this survey has been around for a while. I wonder why it hasn't come to my attention before I received a copy.
anyone got an update?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7158
Have any of you seen the American Community Survey?
They called and harassed the bejesus out of me until I sent it in.
hope you lied on every question
Google wants your medical records??!
hope you lied on every question
I felt that the truth was more damning. Speaking of damnation, is now a good time to mention that it was 113° today and there's a hungry-looking coyote staring in my living room window? Internment might be an upgrade.
Spammishness reported.
Would someone please start beefing about Cory's book tour postings so I don't have to sober up before I'm done soldering this? It's going so well.
whatchya building?
Fixing on a beat up Yamaha P2100 PA amp. It'll be fine but it was pretty rough.
cool, bring it with a mike and speakers to the June 1st Photography Freedom Day
(you should stop drinking now)
The whatty what what??
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/05/15/photographers-stand.html
Thnx. Sleeeeep.....
Unplug that soldering iron!
And here I was, worrying about getting added to the Baskin-Robbins Birthday Club list... :-(
Onward Christian Solderers!
Noen: I agree with the latter half of what you posted 100%. I too believe in hope and not giving in to the fear being sold, and I believe, still, in the American people; but we have grown complacent, and are too easily being manipulated into divisiveness. I also believe that we must wake up to what those currently in power are capable of, based on recent actions, and yet not give in to paranoia and hysteria (I know, not an easy task!) I have meticulously combed point per point through the debunking you cite with an open mind, but it still fails to address the facts I have seen through multiple objective sources. I would love to enlighten you on each point, but this is not the place. Democracy requires diligence, and in an information war, we must arm ourselves with the best information we can. Suffice to say that I agree with what you and Buddy66, and Rossindetroit (If everyone is on the list, then nobody is) have posted: that we must not buy into what is being sold, yet we must resist, in peaceful, humorous and clever methods of civil disobediance designed to wake more of us up. (I am Spartacus, and so's my wife!) As John Lennon said: "It's the only thing the establishment are not prepared to deal with. As soon as you react with violence, they know exactly what to do with you." He was not simply paranoid that Hoover's FBI was surveilling him and actively seeking to throw him out of the U.S. (see "Gimmie Some Truth, The John Lennon FBI Files", the book that inspired the documentary, "The US vs John Lennon") but he also did not succumb to fear and stop pulling pranks for Peace. We must all become pranksters for peace.
This sort of thing is exactly the reason I recommend that every American own a capable rifle. Its not possible to round up 8 million armed dissidents for "the camps". Not unless they willing hand over their arms first.
I suggest you read some war history. Martial law governments have other methods than knocking on doors. Taking hostages for instance.
I was "slow" returning the long-form census. They scheduled a visit to "assist" me filling it out. I filled it out ahead of time, and just handed it to the person at the door. They insisted they still needed to "go over my answers" with me, but I refused.
Oddly, a couple months later I was "randomly" (so they claimed when I asked) selected for yet another even more detailed demographic survey, which of course required an in-home interview, responses entered directly on a laptop by the interviewer, no paper form available. They scheduled a follow-up interview six months later, to see if my "situation" had changed any during that time, just for the statistics of course (really)).
I'm a quiet, low-key tech worker. The most serious trouble I've ever had was traffic tickets a decade or two ago. But I'm not paranoid.
nixon had a list. so did j edgar hover. and both of them died just like everyone else.
Momzilla:
That looks like a job for the "put 'Jedi' in every field" technique. :D
All they really need is a list of people who are:
(1) Politically active, and
(2) Not Republicans.
They're not concerned about Mr. & Mrs. "We don't worry about politics". They're no threat. But if you are a registered member of the Democratic, Liberterian, Green, or other non-Republican political party, trust me: you're on the list.
Fictional newspaper article that provided the backstory to the computer game Deus Ex (released June 2000):
At least, I thought it was fictional... Time to found the National Secessionist Forces?my feelings about 9/11 are somewhere in between the "inside job" idea and the debunking site that noen posted. i believe the US gov. is quite incompetent, but ruled by facist maniacs.
it's pretty clear there was plenty of warning about the event, but the administration did nothing. see: "bin laden determined to attack the u.s."
it's pretty likely they just let it happen, because it would be a great excuse for war (kind of like pearl harbor, by some accounts).
so it's really unnecessary to be competent to exploit. it would also make the cover-up quite small...
also, my wife brought up some points i forgot...
there were charges on the building right, for just in case scenarios?
they could have used those charges to keep it from destroying manhattan, without any further diabolical implications.
also, the pentagon attack (and the one that crashed int he field) is a lot sketchier... the damage (to even the glass) being smaller than the planes wingspan comes to mind... also finding pieces of different aircraft there... also the surveillance video never being released, which sort of implies it doesn't help the story, etc...
It's just a list. I can make a huge list of "People ZikZak Will Fuck Up Some Day", but that doesn't mean I can actually fuck them up - it's just bluster.
I think the thing that scares people about the government lists is that we realize we've already given the government more than enough power to fuck us each up totally.
The only thing standing between us and fuckage is that the government hasn't seen fit to get around to it yet. And the list is a reminder that they're starting to think about getting around to it (and making a list! So organized! Maybe they'll use the GTD system! :)
So, to conclude, the problem isn't that they have a list of people to target and detain without cause, the problem is that our government is capable of targetting and detaining anyone without cause.
Undermine that power and government lists become laughable bluster, just like mine.
When is the last time you saw the news debate how the USA should react to the next terrorist attack?
When is the last time you saw Congress debate how the USA should react to the next terrorist attack?
"...a number of former government employees and intelligence sources with independent knowledge of domestic surveillance operations claim..."
"Sources familiar with the program say..."
"According to a senior government official who served with high-level security clearances in five administrations..."
"One knowledgeable source claims..."
"Another well-informed source—a former military operative regularly briefed by members of the intelligence community—says..."
"A host of publicly disclosed programs, sources say..."
"...the Journal reported, quoting unnamed officials..."
"A veteran CIA intelligence analyst who maintains active high-level clearances and serves as an advisor to the Department of Defense in the field of emerging technology tells Radar..."
And the only named sources who are mentioned as directly addressing the existence of this list?
-James Comey, who has "steadfastly refused to comment further on the matter.
-Philip Giraldi, who answers a hypothetical "If Main Core does exist" question.
Five pages of FUD.
Ok, since people are expressing that they want to discuss 9-11, I will leave you with a few salient points to research on your own. It is relevant, because it has become the cornerstone of US foreign policy and enabled the Viet Nam II quagmire in Iraq and Afghanistan we are stuck in. I have not seen these points sufficiently debunked, but please prove me wrong with objective reasoning and sources. I do not do this to educate anyone's fright, but "Evil flourishes when good [people] do nothing... Silence is complicity" and all that:
1: I wish I could believe we simply "let it happen", but many facts blow a hole in this possibility. Combined US air forces were engaged in "Practice Armageddon" training maneuvers that day simulating invader attacks, effectively blinding them to the real attacks taking place. Tell me this was coincidence. If Osama had access to this kind of intel, we would have had much bigger problems that day. Too many US officials were warned not to travel by air on that day, beforehand.
2: We all know bush posed for photos for a full 20 minutes at that elementary school after being told the country was under attack, but why was it a full two hours after Air Force One took to the air before they had any kind of escort? I am not saying bush knew. I think he was clueless to the plan hatched by Rove, Cheney, Wolfowitz, etc. I am just saying that if they truly believed America was under attack by a foreign power, and anywhere could be a target, he would have had an escort before they even took to the air, especially after a van of men "of middle eastern descent" dropped by where bush was staying at 6am that morning for an unscheduled "interview", but were turned away by the Secret Service.
3: The 9-11 commission report completely omits the steel cores that supported the TWC buildings in their "pancake effect" explanation. Similarly constructed buildings have burned for days without the cores melting. Even so, the buildings collapsed at terminal velocity, that is, at the same speed an object dropped would fall. If each floor crashed into the next, as they suggest, it would have produced at least some small delay per floor. The fires caused by the planes never got hot enough to melt the cores (office furnishings and computers do not burn hot enough.) Everything in those buildings was powderized. The only explanation is that they were professionally demolished, which would have taken weeks beforehand in preparation.
4: WTC 7 was destroyed utterly, but was not hit by airplanes or falling debris. 3 days later, it was still hot enough to melt aluminum at the site. Originally the 9-11 commission said they had no explanation as to how it fell, then the landlord later admitted that they had "pulled" the building, which is to say it was professionally demolished, which, again, would have taken weeks of prior planning.
5: Show me the airplane debris at the Pentagon. As Jamesgyre pointed out, why was all surveillance footage from the many surrounding buildings nearby pulled and classified except for the few frames of the one angle they wanted us to see? Why was it just a neat little hole punched through on the side of the Pentagon undergoing remodeling, much too small to have come from the plane they officially say made it? We were told planes at TWC caused flames hot enough to melt steel cores, but the hit at the Pentagon left windows above the crash, wooden furniture and even a book photographed aside the hole totally intact.
6: The Wolfowitz Doctrine, penned in 2000 outlining the Neo-con strategy, called for a "Pearl Harbor type event" to catalyze change in American Society sufficient to bring about an atmosphere where the US could remain the dominant superpower and preemptively attack other nations to secure American interests like, specifically, middle eastern oil. Don't believe they'd do it? -Operation Northwoods was a plan that got green-lighted all the way up the chain of command and signed-off on by the Secretary of Defense under President Kennedy, describing a falsified attack on American soil to create the pretext for an invasion of Cuba. Kennedy killed the plan, and look what happened to him.
These are just a few examples. There are many more contributing factors, which I welcome you to research. Don't just take it from me. Sift through the BS and find the facts and draw your own conclusions. We have nothing to fear if the truth is laid bare for all to see. Be the change you want to occur. Here are a few places to start:
http://www.freedom-fight.net/confronting
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/pentagon.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRqNIHVOcPU
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/Northwoods.html
@ #13
The Khmer Rouge killed 1.7 million Cambodians in a country the size of New York. Sadly, where there is a twisted will, there is a way.
"WTC 7 was destroyed utterly, but was not hit by airplanes or falling debris. 3 days later, it was still hot enough to melt aluminum at the site. Originally the 9-11 commission said they had no explanation as to how it fell, then the landlord later admitted that they had "pulled" the building, which is to say it was professionally demolished, which, again, would have taken weeks of prior planning."
Huh? WTC 7 was hit by debris from the falling North Tower and sustained heavy damage as a result. It collapsed due to a combination of a) fire and b) structural damage, with a lot of disagreement within the government about which played the more important role.
Brian: Where are you getting this from? All sources I have cited indicate no debris ever hit it. The official 9-11 Commission report was left inconclusive, but suggested the cause as fire, which, as I said, given the materials, could not have burned hot enough to collapse the whole building, much less leave it that hot 3 days later. I'd like to know where you got that info from. Thanks.
I meant to say, all sources I have seen show no substantial damage from debris, certainly not enough to cause the whole thing to collapse upon itself evenly like it did.
Check the videos here:
http://www.wtc7.net/
and here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2073592843640256739
(Boy am I on the list...)
Phikus "could not have burned hot enough to collapse the whole building"
Actually, any good materials engineer will tell you that jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel, but it does burn hot enough to destroy the structural integrity of girder steel with several hundred thousand pounds of weight on top of it.
Thank you, come again.