Grand Theft Are You Fcking Kidding Me
Susannah Breslin has a post up today about the overwrought reactions of shock 'n' horror over the sex 'n' violence in just-released Grand Theft Auto IV.
After a video of the Ladies of Liberty City began circulating around, in which men drive around, pick up sex workers and/or drive over them, shoot prostitutes standing on street corners, and get some freaky-ass, legs-in-the-air, booty-shaking lap dances, everyone got all up in arms over it.LinkThe girls at Feministing weren't having it: "It is no question that GTA is merely reflective of the bigger misogyny embedded in capitalist patriarchy, but the question is why is a game that depicts such violence towards women so popular?" (Jesus Christ, if this is what degrees in gender studies hath wrought, polysyllabic bloggers still carping about the patriarchy, please fucking stop handing them out.)
Jack Thompson nearly had a heart attack over it. (To wit: "Grand Theft Auto IV is the gravest assault upon children in this country since polio. We now have vaccines for that virus... The 'vaccine' that must be administered by the United States government to deal with this virtual virus of violence and sexual depravity is criminal prosecutions of those who have conspired to do this.")
And Rockstar got a helluva lot richer. (See: "Record Sales Expected For Grand Theft Auto IV.")
Previously on BB:
* GTA IV world record attempt tonight, next door to BBtv
In the olden days, you could even run over the prostitute after she finished her work and get your money back.
I always thought that bit was a lot more tasteless than that Hot Coffee thingie. Never quite understood why people weren't upset about that.
In some strange way I'm glad to see Rockstar hasn't caved in and is as tasteless and sexist as ever.
Actually, a lot of the shock and horror this article refers to isn't about the video game, it's about that disgusting trailer. Which has been removed, because some people actually don't think it's funny. Nor is it an accurate promo of the game, and would be a pretty gross promo tool, which is what the common assumption of it's purpose has been.
http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/04/30/ign-yanks-gta-iv-sex-and-hooker-shooting-video/
Jack Thompson on the other hand can stop trying to censor people thankyouverymuch.
Why am I reminded of the peasant in Monty Python and The Holy Grail?
"Come see the violence inherent in the system!"
There's also sex in God of War for PSP. 333Mhz of hardcore MFF action.
Who cares tbh, if kids play this game and kill some whores, I'd be the first to point my finger to the kid's parents.
I am not amused. This blasé contrarian response just looks like yet another shallow "cooler than thou" post-feminist attitude. I'm all about sexual liberation, but I'm *very* disappointed to see Xeni / Boing Boing promoting an article so totally dismissive of anyone who is at all troubled by GTA's continuing misogyny.
There are two things about this article that I'd dispute.
First, he seems to assume that the feelings of johns represent the feelings of men in general. Maybe they do, but I'm gonna need a hell of a lot of evidence before I believe it.
Secondly, does it ever occur to this guy that these feelings aren't exclusive to men? I don't see a lot of American products pandering to women in this fashion, but I know quite a few women who pay hefty fees to import male exploitation and guro comics from Japan.
It's not as if the game specifically features killing hookers. You can kill anyone walking around. There are hookers walking around. So, you can kill hookers. I'm only a small way into GTA IV, but in the previous games I'm pretty sure there were no missions to kill hookers.
What I don't understand is why Jack Bauer torturing innocent people (in live action, as well) is acceptable, but a rendered cartoony Niko Bellic getting a rendered cartoony lap dance is destroying our children.
Also, I'm sure most people playing the game won't read as much into it, but the whole game is social commentary. Everything is exaggerated to ridiculous proportion, but from what I've seen so far, it's a pretty accurate, if not over-the-top, commentary on politics and American society, specifically in large cities like New York.
Madprime, I now present you with a prize. The prize is my approval. Thank you for being awesome.
If "Grand Theft Auto IV is the gravest assault upon children in this country since polio" -- does that make "Halo" more like Herpes? I think we could be on to a whole new "viral" marketing campaign!
Er, Feministing is pretty much the only reaction to the game that makes any sense at all. Reverse Cowgirl is as turned around on this as her favourite position.
Lure of the forbidden. The more feminists, and society, vilify this game, the more it will become an escapist fantasy and thus popular.
"Polysyllabic" is an insult in BoingBoing world now? I hope that was just an insult-without-thinking kind of thing. Allergies to academic-speak shouldn't shut down your own rational thought process, and there's frankly nothing especially academic -- or objectionable -- in the sneered-at sentence. Unless you think the very idea of using the word "patriarchy" is, like, so last generation.
Um, you can also shoot men in this game too...
"Grand Theft Auto IV is the gravest assault upon children in this country since polio."
The game is rated Mature by the ESRB and Target actually scanned my driver's license for compliance (I'm 35...), so I'm not so sure the game is an attack on children per se. If he was really interested in keeping this content away from children wouldn't he be more successful doing what he can to encourage retailers to adhere to the ESRB guidelines? Or is he really interested in keeping this content away from everyone?
To those that can't stop blaming video games for the evils in our world:
Please stop blaming video games.
Or, if you really can't stop, then blame TV shows, movies, magazines, radio broadcasts, the Internet, and every other form of expression we've devised, too. Don't single out video games. Yes, kids have access to all of those things, not just video games.
Violence does not happen because of (put form of expression here). People aren't selling crack because they see such amazingly cool people doing it in the movies. Likewise, people aren't killing because a video game involves killing. In fact, the video game involves killing because there are people in the real world killing.
GTA has always been a big satire, making fun of our own culture, and I think it's great.
Let me get this straight. This so-called game features sex *and* violence? And, despite that, it's extremely popular? Fascinating.
Fortunately, I'm sure graduate students everywhere will immerse themselves in further research. I look forward to the flurry of papers.
People who complain about GTA are stupid.
There. No big words needed.
GTA is some of the best satirical work out there, and it happens to be a video game. You're not required or even asked to shoot hookers. You just can. And you know what happens? The cops come.
And Jack Thompson... Ugh. He's just not even worth the keystrokes, but...
This is not a kid's game. It says so on the box. It has always said so on the box. Don't give it to your kids if you don't want them to play a violent game.
I will never understand why this is any different from a kid seeing, I dunno, Hostel. No one screams "This is an affront to children!!!" because kids aren't supposed to see it. Granted, kids will see it, just like kids will play GTA.
That is no one's problem or business but their parents.
I have a friend who only plays violent video games after his primary-school-aged kids go to bed, because he doesn't think they are appropriate for their age. And I think he's right.
Parenting! What a concept.
Finally, Women's Studies... Ugh. Actually, the whole liberal arts branch of higher education has been inundated with this "pile a bunch of big words onto an outdated outrage" line of thought. You get points for subverting the dominant paradigm instead of thinking rationally or clearly. I got into linguistics because it was the only part of the English department that I could go to to escape the onslaught of total and utter BS dressed up as an academic pursuit.
I'm going to say something and be vilified for it, but:
There is no patriarchy. Women hold the majority of political and social control, and always have. They lack power, to be sure, but they have always had the control. Control beats power every time. It's the pen over the sword. A man can beat his wife, but his wife instills values in his children.
This dichotomy has always existed, and has always favored women. Look to Lysistrata for the earliest example of this in literature (that I can think of). Even The Taming of the Shrew has this as a major theme. Kate is the one in control of that situation. Women vote more.
GTA is just a video game, folks. And a well-produced and interesting one at that. Put your shock away; it's boring me.
I can understand why teenage boys like this game, but all adults who buy it for themselves should be reclassified as minors and have their adult privileges revoked.
Seriously. Cars, guns, poorly rendered naked women and "soft porn"? I know that feminist male psyche simplification and general female disrespect for all things male has gone overboard during last few years, but WTF?
Did I miss a meeting or something? Have we men now officially decided to stop pretending that we too are complex, intellectual beings who desire more out of life than drive around abusing hookers? We really need to improve communication of these things. I just switched from now out of date metrosexual style to badly groomed true man style, and now I'm out of date again. I don't have driving license or a gun permit. Is it okay if I just drive around in a buss being unpleasant to women?
does it ever occur to this guy
Are you referring to Susannah Breslin as a guy? She might not take too kindly to that.
The video is pretty offensive from a violence standpoint. I think that Susannah's point is that this is the symptom, not the cause. The sex is just laughable. And what nationality is that guy supposed to represent? Transylvanian?
Ssnnh Brsln snds lk n ss.
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'v nvr hr f Brsln bfr bt wrtng, "Dd w nt hnt dwn ll th fmnsts nd sht thm p lrdy?" mks hr snd lk sm rghtwng tlk rd hst. t s s f Vlt Bl nd nn Cltr mrphd tgthr nt n prsn.
As my cousin (who was 5 at the time) said to my mother while playing Goldeneye, in response to her objections over the violence: "It's just a video game Becky". If he figured it out then, why can't anyone else figure it out now?
@15
Sadly the shock never gets boring for the ones that make the most noise.
There is no patriarchy. Women hold the majority of political and social control, and always have.
I literally just spilled orange juice all over myself laughing at this. That is not an Internet expression of disbelief. I literally have orange juice down the front of my shirt.
Anyway, I'm not blaming GTA for making kids go on shooting rampages or some such shit. I'm just saying that encouraging a scenario in which you have sex with a prostitute and then kill her to get your money back is an example of misogyny. Fin.
the gravest assault upon children in this country
Children can buy this?
Damn, a year ago I was denied Doom 3 at a games store. I must ask these children where they're getting their games from, being as it's labeled MATURE and only purchasable by ADULTS.
Ww, t fnd n ntry hr cmplnng bt wmn cmplnng bt vlnc gnst wmn.
Gd fckng by.
Just because a 5 year old says something doesn't mean he's "figured it out."
If Jack Thompson hates it, then I'm willing to cut back on food in order to buy a copy of the game when it is released for the PC. That's my knee-jerk response.
I draw two main conclusions from various people's reaction to GTA...
1: People in general care more about the health and safety of CG prostitutes than the flesh-and-blood variety.
2: Killing men is perfectly ok.
haven't the most recent studies on violent vid games and the gamer's behavoir stated that violence in video games actually relieves stress, and relaxes the gamer? i've played every gta game to date, and haven't had the uncontrollable urge to run over hookers or blast police with rpg's. well,... most police. as far as the sex goes, you can find a lot worse on limewire. these smeggin fraks need a smoke screen to keep pushing on the issues which are completely meaningless (violence in vid games), in order to distract from the things that they(sic) would rather you were not be thinking about( abu gharaib, the mortgage crises, our plummetting $). or like a supreme court justice who believes that torture is not a 'punishment'. sigh.
@#12 / Scraps: Spot on!
@Lauren O: thank you!
I am especially frustrated at dismissing these sorts of discussions as "Women's Studies". I happen to have studied and am currently working in science, after attending a well known "institute of technology" with a notably high male to female ratio. A far cry from "liberal arts"!
While I'm not the sort to raise a fuss about something like GTA, I'm glad someone out there does. Kyle's remarks only highlight just how much farther we have to go.
Damn, a year ago I was denied Doom 3 at a games store.
Have you considered human growth hormone?
After watching that video, I have to say game graphics are still not on the right side of the uncanny valley
Not sexy at all
@raya, wake up, "Susannah" is not a "guy" name.
-waves wildly to Kaphin-
I have no issue with it! I'm a woman! If I played GTA, I'd be a woman-killing-woman! But don't you see that we're -both- wrong because it's so more demeaning to simulate crimes against women, because, those kinds of crimes are worse than murder!
Fah. I'm fully against violence and am a calm sort who never willingly hurts anyone, but in video games for mature audiences, who cares? If anything, it's a sedative.
Then again I do have an instinctive reaction when snuck up on and stolen from (having my book taken out of my hands when my spatial sense is decreased because I'm listening to music in class) is to punch the perpetrator in the face. Maybe it's the games.
Can you imagine what the motion capture sessions must have been like?
I just switched from now out of date metrosexual style to badly groomed true man style
Woof.
Have you considered human growth hormone?
Was too young even if I was six feet tall. No ID.
I get handed the children's menu at restaurants still and called son. Despite the fact that my figure is anything but masculine. I'm only 5'0, though HGH IS out of the question now- too old- I could possibly invest in a medieval rack.
Any BBers out there with a torture fetish? I need longer limbs!
I'm only disappointed that there are still no male prostis and no gay strip club to hang out in. ;)
Well, if we can't prevent everyone from buying it, we can at least call ourselves a married couple, adopt male children, and prevent them from playing it.
all that control doesn't seem to get more than 6% of rapists into jail... but I'm sure KA has some exciting explanation for that.
wow, Kyle just when I think the 1950s (or the Victorian era) was over, someone pops up to tell me how my feminine wiles are the way to power. yeah, i don't need the vote either because my "control" over Teh Menz will make sure I'm represented. Of course if I am not 'attached' to any Menz I have nobody to control, so get me back to the kitchen in some man's house! Or get me to breedin' *but I'll need to make sure to have boys to "control"
More generally I think some of the point is that although the game is based on killing everyone, female characters are particularly limited, and that aspect reinforces stereotypes of women in a way that reinforces some pretty nasty sexist stereotyping. I think that's true for a lot of racial and gender stereotyping in GTA too, but the killing-hookers thing is pretty stark. Also, the fact that the game is popular is probably partly because of the way it portrays the world (which is not "reality" btw, do you see the hooker's kid starving to death or selling his tail because some asshole shot his mom? or does the hooker have a chance to grab the gun and shoot you to death?), which is kinda sad and revealing.
it's not that games are more to blame than other aspects of society.. but it's particularly lazy to keep pointing at OTHER media - when people target movies' reinforcement of sexism than it's all "nooo, why aren't complaining about that OTHER thing." Sexism is worth pointing out wherever you find it. Admitting it's sexist and figuring out how you want to deal with that is your call. Pretending it's not really sexist leads you into Kyle's fantasy-land, and, coincidentally, makes you an enabler of sexism.
Was too young even if I was six feet tall. No ID.
I could get into bars when I was twelve.
You can have your legs lengthened. They put screws into your bones with a rod in between and then you crank them farther apart every day. I don't know what the upper age range is for it to work. I gather that it hurts quite a bit. May I suggest that you practice yoga so that you at least stay at 5'0" as you get older. People shrink, women really shrink and most exercise is compressive.
Xeni, you make me smile! you too 13.
Reverse Cowgirl has been staring into the abyss too long.
"I was watching the video you can see for yourself here, and when the guy in the car with the commendable soul pole got what he wanted and then ran over the woman who gave it to him, you know what I did? I laughed. Because I thought it was funny."
You're sick then. No, seriously, that is a pathological response. You should probably seek out some professional help.
"this whole moronic outcry against what is nothing but an unabashed and unashamed articulation of Man's basest impulses run amok is nothing but hypocrisy. Here's a newsflash for you. This is the way people think. This is how things are. This is the way it is."
But it isn't how things should be. We should aspire to be better than our base impulses. Those of us who reject trash like this know full well that this is how the world is and we sure don't need to be lectured to by you. We are not content to wallow in filth. We want a better world for ourselves and for our children. This sure as hell ain't how we get there.
I repeat, this is not how we get there. This is not Buddha nature, this is not Christlike, this does not honor any religious, spiritual, humanistic, or philosophical tradition on the face of the earth now or in all of human history. This kind of filth represents the exact opposite and only serves to pull us all down into it's own cesspool of despair and degradation.
"here's a line from a letter I got from John 15: "My mom was nuts, and aside from the mental illness, loved her wine and valium... Sundays was a real carnival, and me being the eldest bore the brunt of her wrath." Oh, yeah--and, by the way, he's a state investigator."
"here's a line from a letter I got from John 30: "I would possibly seek companionship in this manner again, but honestly it was a frightening act of depravity fueled by a complete loss of morals related to my murder for hire status in the military."
And your point is what Susannah? Do you think we don't understand why people behave the way they do? I mean, really?
"The fact of the matter is that you cannot police the sexual fantasies of men. It isn't going to happen. You can't distill one man's desires into some reductionist understanding of 21st century America that posits women as the victims of men once again."
When I look at games like GTA and the boys who play them all I see are victims, the women and the men both. I don't believe games like this cause people to act out violently but I do think it is a giant red flag. A flag that says something is very wrong at a fundamental level.
"You can't continue to stick your head into the sand and refuse to believe that this isn't a part of how men really think and feel and fuck and want and love and hate and live. You just can't. To do so is insanity."
Because you know better huh? You know that this is how all men think and feel and fuck, right? Can we say confirmation bias? I think we can.
So what is your advice? It would appear from this rant of yours you feel society should simply accept that men are brutal rutting pigs and women are all whores. Is that the kind of life you'd like for your son or daughter? I sure don't.
No, you can't police the sexual fantasies of men or women. No one I know advocates that and certainly no feminists that I know do. You can however police behavior and I happen to think that is a good thing. It's sort one of the central ideas behind this thing we like to call civilization. Without some check on human behavior there would only be chaos.
So what should we do? Well, to begin with we instill some order in our society. Contrary to appearances we've had precious little of that recently. Oh I know, the right likes to pretend they are the law and order party, just like they like to pretend they stand for common decency and honor. We should all know by now what a lie that is.
We don't need this pretend order, we need the real thing. You know, where it doesn't matter who you know, or how much money you have, or what the color of your skin is, or what your gender or sexual orientation is that determines your guilt. We need the rule of law, which is the exact opposite of what we've been getting for the past eight years now.
Once we have established the rule of law then we can start to address the men you quote above. Those men are the true victims here. From that we set out to craft social policies that eliminate or reduce as much as possible the abusive home environments that created those men in the first place.
It may surprise you to learn that what I've sketched out above is something the majority of progressives and yes, even feminists, have been calling for for some time now. Which raises the question in my mind: "Who is this rant really addressed to?" Because it isn't us, your straw women bear little resemblance to anyone I know. So if not us, who is this really meant for? I think you know. I hope that someday, you'll be able to let that person know.
My reaction to this post is in no way a condemnation of GTA. I don't have a current gen system so I can't play GTA 4. I have played the previous GTA games and they are, like R rated films, meant for adults. The play mechanic of running over people, including prostitutes, is way over hyped by the sensationalistic media.
My reaction is a condemnation of summary dismissal of raising questions about what the depiction of women in the game means and the implication that not only is it an accurate depiction of the world but that all men are like that and that we should just shrug our shoulders in response and say "that's just the way the world is."
if i remember correctly, the ESRB was established back in 1994 because "mortal combat is destroying our children".
ohhhh.... those where the days. *sigh*
apparently that wasn't good enough for them. now "grand theft auto is destroying our children." i don't know where all these "children" are getting age 17+ drivers license to buy this game so they can poison their minds. granted, their parents might be buying it for them but then the poisoning no longer becomes the game publishers fault, but the parents.
im sure not all video game retailers follow strict regulations on ESRB code enforcement but theaters and movie retailers dont follow MPAA regulations very well, either.
so where is all the hoopla over movies like rambo and the like?
friggin' political bullshit, thats what...
#18 - Umm, I'm not sure why you think feminism is responsible for "male psyche simplification." Feminism is against the gender essentialism that stereotypes men as brutes who can't control their instincts. Feminists want everyone to be considered "complex, intellectual beings who desire more out of life," regardless of sex or gender.
Also it is a mystery to me why #20 got disemvowelled, but I suppose that is why I'm not a moderator.
"I'm just saying that encouraging a scenario in which you have sex with a prostitute and then kill her to get your money back is an example of misogyny. Fin."
its not encouraging, it's enabling.
you can play the whole game through and not do that.
you can do what you want inside the game and, yes, there are consequences. if you choose to kill randomly you get thrown in jail.
now explain to me how is that a bad thing?
@l'elk
That reminds me. Shouldn't the children all be destroyed by now?
I'm with madprime, here. This isn't amusing.
Grand Theft Auto IV doesn't bother me, but Susannah Breslin moronic perspective is offensive. Moreover, this is not an honest investigation, it's a sophomoric attempt to draw attention, to draw ire (not unlike the Grand Theft Auto promo). The attempt is working, too, as evidenced by this post, which is my first. Here’s the rub: Breslin can write whatever she likes, but I'm disappointed with BoingBoing for propagating this thoughtless, sensationalistic nonsense.
I already aired my dismay that Boing Boing is helping to promote this overhyped game, but geez louise, so nobody can say ANYTHING critical about hyper-violent and overly sexual games like GTA that are clearly marketed to teens?
Sorry but you know there is something amiss when people can't call crud for crud. And what is AMAZING about the current GTA release is how much they are couching what they do as being "satirical". How many new blurbs and reports repeat that "This is a satire..." mantra?
This isn't satire. This is a mass-marketed misogynist game that is specifically targeted towards teens no matter what Rockstar's company line is. They know their market. They know how to push the right buttons. And it's amazing how many people are drinking the proverbial Kool Aid.
Anyone remember when video games weren't all based on sociopathic murder fantasies?
would I play this game? No. But mostly because I don't get enough back from any video game to warrant the time. How do I know this? I played games. But not any more.
Would I let my children play this game? I wouldn't buy it for them. Up to say age 14, I'd say no. Would I stop them from getting it themselves after 14? No. Would I continually express my disapproval?
Oh yes.
Bottom line; if you haven't raised your children to KNOW robbery, rape and murder are wrong, no amount of games or no games is going to matter.
I would be curious to hear from people who have been raised on video war games and have actually gone to war. Do they let their children play them?
I also suspect police, front line social workers and emergency room personnel also have views about violence games when it comes to their kids.
Let's subject this to a simple litmus test. Replace the prostitutes with Jews. Queers. Small children. Cats.
"Jack" speaks the truth.
The unvarnished, unpopular and un-hip truth.
#47 - Do you get any health-point-type benefits or similar from having sex with the hookers? Are there any women in the game who are not strippers or hookers? Are any of the strippers or hookers actual characters or do they just strip and hook? Why doesn't enabling something and then glorifying it in promos count as encouraging?
Takuan my brother, is this kind of how you felt when "Aliens versus Predator: Extinction" came out on PS2?
As to your comment, though - I challenge you to rip the video game controller out of the hands of a Marine playing "Medal of Honor."
It's an interesting experience to play "Def Jam: Fight for New York" as a female playing a beefy male character, against a male friend who's playing Li'l Kim, and which male friend is much less skilled than you, to say the least, and watching poor computer-generated Li'l Kim get the crap kicked out of her. By you. I've worked with victims of domestic violence and I'm a female professional raised by a feminist mom, but apparently I'm still brainwashed by the patriarchy, 'cause I fail to see a problem with having that experience.
I prefer "The Sims" though - it's the least homophobic game I've ever played, and you can totally make your guy characters make out with other guy characters. Even the aliens.
I don't think that they should have pulled the video because they should be honest about what the game is about: sex and violence. Pulling the video is showing that they really are all about the money. "We're offended by the content, but we'll still take the cheque." Yeah well fuck you IGN and fuck you Rockstar. You are teh suck.
This game, in all its glory, really only appeals to one group: young men. And that is tragic.
As a 30-something man, I find the video a little funny because its silly to me. One viewing by a mature adult produces that result - humor. I am not remotely interested in playing the game. I don't think that the game would change my views about women because I am a grown-up and I'm not going to devolve to an adolescent and start objectifying women again, LIKE I WAS CONDITIONED TO BY SOCIETY GROWING UP. Someone 10 or 15 years younger playing the game extensively is going to experience something altogether different.
This is my point: pornography (sex + violence) does real harm.
It is inevitable that everyone is going to get exposed to pornography. The question is when and with what information in hand to deal with it.
If we educate our kids on gender issues, the senselessness of violence, and we reduce their exposure to porn until at least semi-adulthood, they will have better tools to deal with it and the impact on their relationships with each other won't be damaged.
Rockstar is really taking the low-road here, IMO. This game promotes violence, and especially toward women. How that is expressed by the kids exposed to it will not be to model the behavior in the game directly (in 99.99% of cases, at least) but it WILL have an impact on their views about their role in society and relationships with others, with women in particular.
Finally, the first step toward reducing harm to society by pornographic material is not necessarily censorship. That whole freedom vs values dichotomy is just an argument that goes nowhere. There is a middle road. It's harder to find, but there is one.
Irony: petulant posting about how "There's not a patriarchy and there never was so shut up about it all ready", written by a guy.
Seriously. I'm a guy, and you other guys who keep pissing and moaning about how feminists are all man-hating harpies who just want to symbolically or actually castrate you all for the crime of being male are a sincere embarrassment to those of us who don't think buying feminine products for our partners or watching a "chick flick" are emasculating experiences from which one can never recover.
Equally tiresome is the excuse of "It's satire and if you don't get that it's obviously because you're a humorless dolt". Putting women in the position of being a disposable commodity isn't "satire". It's mirroring how our society has viewed them for generations. It's mirroring how some people STILL view them.
It's okay guys, honestly, you can criticize stuff like this and be in no danger of having your genitals shrink or fall off.
Ummm what was wrong with my post #20?
I hereby present Geekazoid and Skullhunter with seals of my approval as well.
Noen wrote:
I repeat, this is not how we get there. This is not Buddha nature, this is not Christlike, this does not honor any religious, spiritual, humanistic, or philosophical tradition on the face of the earth now or in all of human history.
Do you think any Buddhist would accept a simplistic dualistic statement along the lines of "this is not Buddha nature"? And plenty of great humanistic art has explored the dark, seedy, cynical aspects of human nature without trying to condemn them in a didactic way or teach people to piously rise above them--look at Goya, Jonathan Swift, Mark Twain, even R. Crumb. I think true spirituality is not about using your superego to repress the parts of yourself you consider "bad" or "unspiritual"--one can accept that these darker impulses are a basic part of human nature, even laugh at them, while still trying to avoid acting them out in the real world in a way that harms actual feeling humans (as opposed to crude CG video game characters).
I'm with you #5 (and the rest of you). To sit back and say "we shouldn't do anything about this, because it's the way things are!" is just to give up. I'm not saying there aren't elements of the ridiculous in the whole issue, but when did we all throw up our arms and say "Yes, world, you're right. Men like to treat women badly, so we should just let it happen"? I'll be the uncool one in the room if I have to. I'm used to it.
Reading this article just made me feel sad, and defeated. WTF people?
@Antinous:
There are queers that can be beaten. No one makes a fuss about it, though.
I think there are legitimate concerns about the messages embedded in the game, though they are far and away not particular to GTA itself. However, the people who voice these concerns are 95% of the time people who haven't seen the entirety of the game. The critics strike me as the kind of people who would dismiss a film like Reservoir Dogs after seeing 5 minutes of it because the main characters refer to dark skinned persons as niggers.
I haven't played this game and have no plans to, but it's my understanding that the GTA series was revolutionary for being extremely 'open,' that is, you can do pretty much anything you want. You play a criminal, so the game's missions involve killing people, but those who beat up women on the street are just sad people taking advantage of the freedom the game offers them. You're equally free to escort old ladies across streets or take long peaceful walks in central park, but for some reason no one does, or at least it doesn't receive news coverage. It's not marketed as a virtual prostitute-killing game and that's not what it is. If the matrix were real and simulated reality perfectly, would it be condemned as misogynistic when people inevitably used it to exorcise their demons in the same manner?
"This is the way people [men] think. This is how things are."
Excuse me but speak for yourself.
Scraps #12, are you aware that the parenthetical you're complaining about was written by Susannah Breslin (and is part of the quoted text), not Xeni?
Anyway, you're right, the Feministing sentence uses common words of easily-understood (or looked-up) meaning. I've seen true pseudo-academic bafflegab, and that wasn't it.
Hemidemisemiquaver,
I don't see it as a cause so much as a symptom. Unfortunately it's a symptom that's become a marketing demographic. Rockstar has figured out that they can make a lot of money pandering to this attitude, therefore they do. They also know they'll have loads of people who'll rally around the flag of "political incorrectness", bravely standing side-by-side with the strong majority against the terror of the weak minority.
@63
No you actually can't escort old ladies across streets.
In the GTA 3 games, I may be wrong (it has been a while since I played any of them) but I don't think there were any old ladies.
There really isn't any way to deal positively with anyone in the game except for when you take over an Ambulance, Police Car, Firetruck or Taxi and then you just do those jobs.
You can't be nice to anyone man or woman. However, while you can have sex with prostitutes (or in GTA San Andreas your girlfriend) you can't have sex with men. The "have sex with a hooker and then kill her" is actually two separate game mechanics. You can have sex with prostitutes and you can kill anyone -- including prostitutes. None of the missions require you to do so (at least not that I played. I didn't play any of the "stories" games that started out on the PSP)
You can just walk around and people have done so. It doesn't make good news those.
It looks like an interesting "game".
Too bad it's console only.
No GTA IV for me.
Jesse M - thanks for expanding. My rant was already long enough. I don't really have a problem with the game so much as what it says about us. And Takuan as usual summed up everything I had to say in one or two sentences.
I was out of the country too long. So it comes as a great surprise to me to learn that non-drooling ADULTS play this shit.
Joshua: "How about a nice game of chess?"
I don't really give a crap about Grand Theft Auto, or the idea that teenagers might be playing a game that involves lots of sex and violence. Young humans interested in sex and violence! Pardon me while I fail to reel from the shock.
I'm also temperamentally inclined to be cranky about attempts to police fantasy and desire. People are what they are.
And yet I agree, a lot, with Scraps's #12. I've liked Susannah Breslin in the past, but the sneers at "polysyllabic" language are just fucking stupid. The stuff being quoted isn't even all that academic or jargonish. This is on the level of calling people with glasses "four-eyes."
I don't necessarily think some of GTA's content is appropriate, generally speaking, but I'll certainly defend their right to make it and sell it. People need to respect games just as they respect movies. Movies like Pulp Fiction and The Departed are clearly not intended for children, and neither is this game. Period. Do your jobs, parents. Don't let the government do your work for you.
But is the game sexist? Well, yeah, pretty much. This series constantly takes shots at all kinds of things, from sex to religion to race to government. It's called "satire." And also "lulz," I believe.
Incidentally, I wish I had a console this game was on. It looks fantastic. I love realistic, open-world, do-what-you-want games.
Just to add some detail to the discussion: I have been playing the game today, just like I played all previous versions of the game. The draw, for me, is how open the game is. I make no apologies for the game, I didn't create it. I do think there are a few points worth consideration, however.
1. The earlier poster who commented that old school games didn't involve killing anyone is absolutely wrong. Nearly every single game ever created involves the killing of someone/something. Even Super Mario kills living "breathing" mushrooms and the like.
2. Saying that your character kills prostitutes and gets their money back is a misnomer. In fact, anyone who is killed in the game (even if accidentally run over by your car) leaves behind money. You may as well say that the game promotes the killing of construction workers, since someone playing the game could kill one and "get" money. I also think, if I am not mistaken, that you got points in Super Mario for smushing/killing the little mushroom people.
3. I WILL say that I am unfailingly disappointed with how homophobic the game tends to be. Mostly this is demonstrated through "fag" remarks and the like. However, in this new version of the game, your character can date people he meets online, and the online database has both women AND men. So it would appear that the character can date men.
4. I think it is worth noting that I am 29, and have played all versions of this game, starting at age 18. I do not kill people. I do not rape, mug, shoot, stab, discriminate, abuse, use, or any other negative toward my fellow humans. Oh, and I've also looked at porn. So, it would seem that the argument that this game makes you develop an antisocial personality is mistaken. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of mental illness could have told you that.
I do agree that children have NO BUSINESS playing or watching this game. Just like they shouldn't watch the movie Saw. That is a matter to take up with their parents.
Actually I just discovered something interesting about the game via some comedy pals. There is a comedy club in GTA4, and there are digital versions of comedians there. But guess what you can't do to them? Shoot or kill them. Hypocrisy anyone?
So you know, that is what really gets me. For all the talk about the game being "open" and exportable, it's actually just a bigger predefined maze game where certain people—women and hookers—can be treated like crap, but others—such as comedians—can't have the same things done to them.
Ultimately the game presents the pretense and highly marketed pretense of "choice" and "exploration" with the reality being that you are being guided down a very specific path.
I actually grew up playing video games and going to arcades to place electro-mechanical shoot-em-up games. Shooting plastic ducks and random targets is one thing. This is something much more destructive and negative. Halo, Quake, Unreal and others are violent but morally neutral; this game is anything but. And that's what really sickens a lot of people.
You know why games like Katamari Damacy, Guitar Hero and Wii games are so popular and considered "revolutionary"? They drop the violence as the main motivating factor in gameplay and truly create worlds you can be a part of. For Guitar Hero's world is limited in the game, but the social interaction expands the world it exists in.
GTA4 is just a cynical psychotic nightmare of a game that pushes buttons but actually doesn't give much back in return.
@ #72 POSTED BY MATT SANDERSON:
"Movies like Pulp Fiction and The Departed are clearly not intended for children, and neither is this game."
Not a fair comparison. It's far easier for kids to get their hands on games than it is to see movies and we all know it. Granted nowadays it's a tad easier to see R-rated films if you are a kid thanks to file-sharing but still.
This game is not marketed as an adult game only to adults. It's very much marketed to kids with the ESRB rating being window dressing and not much else.
"...but I'll certainly defend their right to make it and sell it."
They have a right to make and sell it, and consumers have a right to voice their concerns. The ability to form yourself as a corporation doesn't shield one from public scrutiny. Rockstar Games is not some scrappy nerdowell company; why people defend them as if they are their personal pals is hilarious IMHO.
I don't buy the satire argument. The game exists for purposes of titillation, not philosophical exploration. Although I do agree that these games, like violent literature, can be used to work through aggressive feelings. Takuan summed it up by pointing out that your kids either have values by now or they don't.
#71 Patrick - it's true, it's an ad hominem. But I can understand the ire of pro-sex women against academic feminists. The latter group often willfully fail to see that sexual repression pretty much never correlates with liberation of women. Don't forget Andrea Dworkin collaborating with those lovely evangelical Christians to fight sex work and pornography in the 80s.
I appreciate Xeni representing for porn in her writing on BB.
Jack has a point, though - I for one have logged way more hours on I ♥ Katamari than on any GTA game.
Jack Thompson nearly had a heart attack over it...? I'm disappointed in Rockstar for failing to visually induce a full and complete cardiac arrest.
ok, when it comes to kids I don't really care. Parents need to raise them, not let them raise themselves, when it comes to women, most of us can handle ourselves and most of us aren't hookers, and even if we are (which i'm so not) its a choice. we all make choices. but i do have a beef with this game. it has made being trashy cool. there are some adults, (namely poorer, less informed ones), who DON'T know better. they think that because its in a video game its cool. for some reason our culture is going through a phase where being a gangster is cool. and i think this game is partially responsible. no i don't have any websites to back me up, its just an opinion. i've played these games and yeah they are fun, but i think there should be some kind of disclaimer that says in effect "you're retarded if you think this kind of behavior is in anyway shape or form is okay" i'm sure Rockstar has disclaimers but bottom line, they're a business. they don't care about people they care about money. and while there is a demand (obviously a large one) for this type of game, i think we should (as human beings who should give a shit about each other, whether or not we really do is a different story, im just saying we should) not buy into this lifestyle. its one thing if its a game, its another if people buy into it. and obviously they do. look at all the gang violence in america and tell me people dont buy into this. i think maybe we shoudn't buy this game or allow this type of thing to be so available. i don't believe in censorship, but think maybe in this case its warranted. if one game can change so many peoples point of view, or desensitize them to this level of violence, maybe its time we do something. and since we really cant stop anything, i think we should boycott this game. im sure no one is swayed by my opinion but i can say one thing, im not buying it. im not going to make Rockstar believe im okay with this.
Oh LAWD, wait till the kids find the easter egg in the game that lets them hijack a jet and fly it into the White House killing both Bush and Cheney. Then the reall uproar will commence, huh? LOL
The commenters at Feministing weren't calling for a ban or censorship of the game, they were raising legitimate concerns about the misogynistic content. Oh, and everyone saying "there's violence against MEN too!!!", yeah, okay, but is it sexualized violence? Can you pay a man for sex and then kill him? No? Hmm, strange, I wonder why...
And as if trotting out the whole humorless feminists trope wasn't lame enough, you then mocked them for using "polysyllabic" language (literal meaning, having more than 2 syllables. Oh nooooes, 2 many syllables, scary!!!!11!!) and acting like "patriarchy" is this ridiculously jargony word that, like, NO ONE understands, man.
Sexism, sadly, I'm not that surprised to see here. Anti-intellectual panic? Yeah, I actually am kinda surprised. This is way below the level of discourse I've come to expect from this site. I don't know what to say except that I'm fucking disappointed.
Can you pay a man for sex and then kill him?
Are you saying that there's a potential niche market here?
#81 posted by nico416
Ah, ha! Maybe THAT'S a secret level you can get to from an easter egg!
Sister Y, I'd hardly classify Feministing as "academic feminism." It's a pop-feminist blog that explicitly deals with pop culture, not advanced theory. Plenty of us feminists, especially of the variety that frequent Feministing, are down with non-misogynistic porn and think Andrea Dworkin was a bit of a crazy person.