Gun owners are the happiest people in the US
According to the 2006 General Social Survey, which has tracked gun ownership since 1973, 34% of American homes have guns in them. This statistic is sure to surprise many people in cities like San Francisco – as it did me when I first encountered it. (Growing up in Seattle, I knew nobody who owned a gun.)LinkWho are all these gun owners? Are they the uneducated poor, left behind? It turns out they have the same level of formal education as nongun owners, on average. Furthermore, they earn 32% more per year than nonowners. Americans with guns are neither a small nor downtrodden group.
Nor are they "bitter." In 2006, 36% of gun owners said they were "very happy," while 9% were "not too happy." Meanwhile, only 30% of people without guns were very happy, and 16% were not too happy.
In 1996, gun owners spent about 15% less of their time than nonowners feeling "outraged at something somebody had done." It's easy enough in certain precincts to caricature armed Americans as an angry and miserable fringe group. But it just isn't true. The data say that the people in the approximately 40 million American households with guns are generally happier than those people in households that don't have guns.
The gun-owning happiness gap exists on both sides of the political aisle. Gun-owning Republicans are more likely than nonowning Republicans to be very happy (46% to 37%). Democrats with guns are slightly likelier than Democrats without guns to be very happy as well (32% to 29%). Similarly, holding income constant, one still finds that gun owners are happiest.
Happiness really is a warm gun!
I suppose it must be more satisfying to imagine shooting someone for idiocy when you can actually fondle your weaponry while doing it....
Jiminy Cricket! Guns are expensive and, if you plan on actually shooting the things, ammo costs add up fast (unless you make your own), plus it costs to go to the range. Owning a gun is a lot like owning a purebred pet: it's fun, but it ain't a hobby for the impoverished.
its cheaper than video games.
I have to say i own a gun, but i'm lazy so when i moved to california I left it with my father, and while i did enjoy shooting at the range I can't say I miss it all that much.
Count me as a happy gun owner. It's fun and relaxing to go out target shooting.
Is there a correlation between bore and degree of happiness?
Target shooters of BB,
Do you think about blowing someone away when you're at the range? If I were practicing archery, would people assume that I was thinking about killing someone? My experience with target shooting is that it takes a lot of focus to put the bullet in the middle of the target. If I were fantasizing about shooting someone, it would almost certainly cause me to lose concentration and my aim would suffer.
It's likely that a significant percentage of that 34% have an old gun that was given to them from a deceased relative or something, never shoot it, and don't even have ammo for it. Or they got it when they were going to be a hunter 20 years ago, went once, and discovered what a pain in the ass it is to actually hunt and put it away in the closet. These are the same people who would probably not blink twice, (or perhaps only twice) were their gun to become illegal and were asked to turn it in, or wouldn't care if it became increasingly difficult to get ammo, or whatever method ends up (note the implication there...) being the way they deal with making guns a little more difficult to get in this country.
What I'm saying is that it's not the case that 34% of Americans are loony gun nuts who go bezerk when their constitutional right to participate in a militia is threatened.
As to the connection between owning a gun and being happy, my guess is that there is some poor statistical correlation at work. Something like an increase in the sale of ice cream leading to more deaths by drowning.
(they only SEEM related because they are both caused by hot weather...)
Thus the comment by #3 about how expensive they are could play a factor, since guns are expensive, people with guns probably have more money, and yes Virginia, there is an actual statistical correlation between having more money and being happy. I read it a couple days ago in the NYTimes. Thus it is a fact.
Happy Hunting!
Jim
Is Herr Frauenfelder a gun owner? A Hillary Clinton supporter? Or does he have some other stake in extending the life of the debate over this non-issue?
It could be that people who are in areas that allow gun ownership are, in general, happier that people living in areas that don't allow gun ownership.
I have several firearms, and I know that I would not be happy in any state that disallowed ownership, but only partially for the regulations themselves. Places like New York, Chicago, and San Francisco restrict firearm ownership the most. They also tend to have higher crime, higher real estate prices, higher taxes, and longer commutes than other places.
I love my Beretta .40 S&W as well as my Chinese SKS ($150 for a capable target rifle isn't bad!). I see gun ownership as a civil right, something to be respected as much as the first amendment. I don't have any illusions of using them for self defense, I just love target shooting.
Gun ownership is a good wealth indicator. The cheapest gun I ever bought was a used Mossberg 88 pump shotgun for $120, and the cheapest handgun was $200, a used Ruger 95 9mm pistol.
Ammo and range time are also expensive.
It's not a hobby for those who struggle to make rent and buy groceries. Also, you are more likely to own a gun for protection if you have a home, a wife, kids, since you have something to protect.
So basically, middle-class and well-off people tend to be happier and less bitter than struggling people. That's really what this poll is saying.
You could probably take a similar survey of people who own backyard pools against those who don't and get similar results.
All the people I know with one or two guns are fine.
It's the people that collect them and run drills as to when they are going to be victims of a home invasion that are scary. It's like they want it to happen so they can inflict some kind of justice; their way of armchair vigilantism. Maybe they see some terrible things on TV and it's their way of not really solving the problem, but hoping that there will be a chance when they can make a dent in it.
I used to really enjoy target shooting (pistol and bow). I never felt the urge to go hunting; too much hiking for my tender, urban sensibilities. But target shooting was a hobby that my (now ex-)wife and I shared; I gave it up after we split and sold my pistols.
As far as fantasies of violence go - there is a large divide between the stylized gunplay seen on TV and film and the rather grimmer reality - the idea that exposure to the realities of weapons would enhance or promote violent fantasies seems dubious to me.
The relation between bore and degree of happiness is simple - those trapped by their macho self-image into target shooting with .50 caliber rifles and pistols can be seen weeping softly to themselves later as they grip their empty wallets; those who have graduated to the pleasures of a well-tuned Ruger MkII .22 caliber pistol leave the range whistling a happy tune!
They're happy now, but wait until they're unhappy. Look for cover.
copiesofcopies (who signed up just for this one comment),
Did Mark forget to call you to get approval before posting? We'll have administration get on that oversight pronto.
JamesMason #8, that was my first thought, but I read the post all the way to the end, where the author points out that, even controlling for income, the correlation still holds.
Not that there's not some other factor causing both things, but apparently it's not mere income. Harrkev #10 has an interesting idea - perhaps the culture of the South (high concentration of gun owners there, based on my mucking through census data) leads people to want to own guns, and for those people to feel extra happy and socially comfortable - in general.
In my case - all my male relatives own guns. They all live in Idaho. They're shy, quiet guys who hunt for meat (not for fun).
Interesting story, thanks for posting it.
Ask them how happy they are with the government, which was the point Obama made, and I'm willing to bet you would get a much different percentage.
Look. There is a certain amount of irreducible time between one's perception of being threatened by another person and the arrival of the police. This period varies from place to place and time to time. During this period, an individual has a absolute right to defend themselves, and an obligation to defend their family and/or others similarly threatened. I have a handgun for exactly that purpose. It threatens no one who does not first threaten me.
I don't have possession of that handgun in China, where I presently live. That is because this government well understands that an armed population is more difficult to control than is the other kind. The passage in the Constitution regarding bearing arms was written by people who had just dealt with what they considered to be an oppressive government. Part of the reason Americans have the right to bear arms is to protect themselves from the tyranny of an out of control government, something like what we now have in the US. Before you jump to any conclusions, I am a left wing, Obama supporting, six figure income, CEO, and married for a grand total of 44 years, some of them happily (Thanks Al F.).
Freedom makes people happy. Being able to defend your freedom makes people happier.
@Antinous
Just like you, I can't really think of anything but the target when I'm shooting. I'm a very nonviolent person, but like most target shooters, I enjoy the relaxation and focus that comes from target practice. It's like any other high-focus skill, and probably represents an instance of flow state.
let's do a happiness survey of all those killed by guns
For a fascinating read on the subject of target shooting/focus/flow state; Zen and the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel (sp?). And yes, the title of this book (written in the late 30's IIRC) did inspire the title of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
#13 collect and run drills is spot on.
collect, however, I dunno, (me)
I am not obsessive, my guns are not like, oh, say, my super cool vintage balsa & tissue model airplane kit collection. (yes, I just scored an original Nobler in cellophane wrapping!)
I actually have guns I have never shot, nor own ammo for.
This was a topic of dinner conversation recently. The economy is going right straight to heck. The dollar is weak against the Euro. Stocks are plummeting like Paris Hilton's panties when a photographer is around.
What can an average person invest a medium amount of money in, that will continue to appreciate faster than depreciate, is easy to hold as an asset, and has use no matter what?
Well, I cannot buy super exotic cars. Although I understand the Ferrari Enzo rises 25% in value every time some rich guy crashes one.
I do not want to touch gold. The Hunt brothers taught us you cannot corner the silver market. So what?
Guns. Not a chicom sks but something a bit different, a bit collectible. The .44 Magnum Dirty Harry used, for example. If you bought a Smith & Wesson model 29 in 8" barrel for $500 in 1990, you got a deal. they are now running $1500 and up.
So I have a proper gun safe, and every so often, I purchase a pistol or rifle, put it in the safe, and know, the value is appreciating. There is little maintenance cost. And if Zombies come for us, I stand a better than average chance.
I am not sure if that makes me happier, or indulges any violent fantasies. But I know, if the dollar plummets in value, I will still be able to sell or trade some of these firearms for food for my family.
It's just a thought, I am not suggesting it as a total portfolio strategy.
Not too surprising, the Amish are supposed to be really happy people too, it's all a life style thing. The real question is would happiness increase or decrease on average among a group of non gun owners who where given guns for a year. I think I would be less happy to go Amish for a year, which is why I haven't gone out and started living the Amish life style.
Takuan: not very happy, I guess:
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
Also, there's a positive correlation between gun ownership and suicide. That may be our answer - the gun owners left alive to answer the question are the happy ones. 16,000 per year is a lot. (That might sound flippant; I certainly don't mean it that way, I'm just trying to be clear.)
http://tinyurl.com/44nmxb
"Ridiculous," .243 M77 spit.
"You have so much to look forward to in life. You bought a new car. You may be saddled with debt for the next 5 years to be sure, but you got such a good APR."
Miguel swiveled around in his office chair; "You always knew how to cheer me up with depressing crap like that M."
.243 M77 turned away and watched her children play outside on a squeaking swing set. '5 years..' she thought. Just 5 years ago she was new out of the box. Factory fresh, with a spent .243 Winchester cartridge tucked away in a neat little envelope nuzzled next to her.
Only 2 years of freedom.. then what? A middle-aged, cheap, silver tongued Italian shotgun with years of experience whisked her away to a
Motel 6. The rest was straight out of daytime TV. She would never see the 200-yard range again.
.243 M77 piped up quietly, "Did I ever tell you about the crush I had on you?"
Miguel's typing paused almost imperceptibly.
"It was at the club. You had just signed up and you were taking your first stroll around the ranges. You had some horrible looking thing with you, a crusty Remington with gaudy scope rings. I remember how she glinted in the sun, a slathering of Break-free on her worn, blued barrel. No doubt trying to cover up all those scratches."
"Ah, 700... I remember her. I picked her up at some seedy consignment shop. She didn't last very long," Miguel chuckled. "You broke me in though, M, you taught me how to be happy on the range again."
.243 glanced at the clock, Friday was drawing to a close. It was time for her children to leave, they were spending the weekend with their father.
"I have to go, Miguel. Don't be so hard on yourself. Hey, I'll see you tomorrow at Ruger's Barbeque, right?"
"Sure, I'll be there."
Miguel couldn't help but smile as .243 M77 gently closed the door to his study. "A crush, eh?"
Correlation does not imply causation. However, this could be self-skewing sample: very unhappy gun owners might be selecting themselves out of the sample.
It would be interesting to do a similar survey of sleeping pill, rope or even thimble owners and compare the results.
The majority of gun-owners I've known are of the, shall we say, hippy, variety? They believe in coddling the weak and helping the downtrodden. Yet they own guns. They also use sharp knives to carve their food... food they cook with that scourge of man- the all-consuming flame of Prometheus!
I was in a European city recently, I was just as afraid of being mugged there as I was back home. Moreso, I might add, for in that city I was a tourist and therefore a target.
It's not the weapons we should fear, it's other people.
THIMBLE owners!?! I question your sanity, man. There's a group you really don't want to mess with.
Ha ha, gun owners are happier because we know that we can take care of ourselves. I have never fired my gun at anything with a heart beat, but I was trained in the use of a gun. I am not a member of the NRA, but I am glad that they are out there fighting for the right to keep and bare arms. I do not ever want to shoot anyone, in fact if a dangerous situation should present itself I hope and pray that I never have to fire my gun.
The thing is that places like New York, D.C. and Chicago have some of the toughest gun laws on the books, yet they also have some of worst gun violence. Chicago reported 26 shootings in one weekend, six are dead with 20 wounded.
But of course I'm bitter, and I cling to my guns, religion, and intolerance. *sarcasm off
the people that collect them and run drills
So.....Trekkies?
I don't buy the generalization that "an armed population is harder to control than an unarmed population," it's just the control is differently expressed. It looks to me like guns in the US serve symbolic purposes that prevent us from organizing to resist tyranny.
At what point do we get or have we gotten armed resistance to government in recent years within the US? Mostly when there has been a fanatic religious group involved. It wasn't gun ownership that fueled resistance, it was a rival ideology where those who held it believed in it enough to challenge the government in an organized way.
Having a world view that supports organized resistance to government does not require guns.
And judging from recent examples in the US, having guns AND a rival world view doesn't seem to work out so well either..
s rgstrd Dmcrt wh wns n K-47 nd shts n cmbt pstl/rfl mtchs, fnd trgt shtng qt rlxng nd mdttv. n cnnt b cncrnd wth nythng thr thn prtng th wpn - nt th dy's vnts, nt n's wrk. Jst y nd th trgt. Flw stt, s sggstd bv.
nd t's nt ncm, s th stdy crrctd fr tht:
"Smlrly, hldng ncm cnstnt, n stll fnds tht gn wnrs r hppst."
dn't fnd th stdy srprsng. Gn wnrshp s n mpwrng thng, nd mpwrd ppl tnd t b hppy ppl.
t hs ls bn fnd tht chldrn tht wn lgl gns hv lwr jvnl dlnqncy rts thn chldrn tht dn't wn gns. Crrltn nt cstn, f crs.
http://www.ncjrs.gv/pdffls/rdl.pdf (p. 25)
you know, the last Superbowl could have been memorable. If he hadn't changed his mind at the last minute and turned around...well, 200 rounds of rifle fire in a packed stadium, those killed and maimed in the panic when everyone tried to leave at once when the shooting started.....
I'm totally in favor of attractive people's right to bare arms. (Just teasin' ya #31, I know what you mean. Don't shoot me!)
Sstr Y, th frrm s th mst ffctv mthd f scd, wth smthng lk 70% f frrm scd ttmpts sccdng. S f crs w'r gng t hv lt f ppl ffng thmslvs wth frrms, thy hppn t b ffctv. f smn wnts t ff thmslvs, lt thm d t. Mst ppl try mltpl tms t kll thmslvs bfr sccdng. Hvng gn n th hm jst mns tht scdl prsn s gng t hv t try lss tms t kll thmslvs bfr sccdng. Ppl hv th rght t nd thr wn lf.
MH, th whl "bn th gns t sv scdrs" rgmnt s cmplt nn-strtr.
From what a friend who lived in Austin told me, its counter-intuitive, but the everyone owning a gun thing seems to work for them down there. Eh.
But urinalpooper, you really don't have much of a chance of being mugged at gunpoint in Western Europe. Seemingly the only people who shoot people in the UK are the police. I was mugged once in my many years in London, by a bunch of unarmed kids, whilst drunkenly wandering down back alleys late at night in a bad part of town absent mindedly looking for my mate's house. They took my phone, and didn't even bother noticing I didn't have any money. Its the happy slapping you have to worry about.
"y knw, th lst Sprbwl cld hv bn mmrbl. f h hdn't chngd hs mnd t th lst mnt nd trnd rnd...wll, 25 prpn cnstrs xpldng n pckd stdm, ths klld nd mmd n th pnc whn vryn trd t lv t nc whn th xplsns strtd....."
"y knw, th lst Sprbwl cld hv bn mmrbl. f h hdn't chngd hs mnd t th lst mnt nd trnd rnd...wll, 500,000 cbc ft f chlrn n pckd stdm, ths klld nd mmd n th pnc whn vryn trd t lv t nc whn th chkng strtd....."
"y knw, th lst Sprbwl cld hv bn mmrbl. f h hdn't chngd hs mnd t th lst mnt nd trnd rnd...wll, 10,000 vnms snks n pckd stdm, ths klld nd mmd n th pnc whn vryn trd t lv t nc whn th btng strtd....."
JLBRAUN,
You know the rules. You're banned in gun threads until you participate in other comment threads. If you try to dominate the conversation, you know what will ensue.
jlbraun, your thoughtful comment will bring such comfort to the parents of every depressed teenager who has "offed" himself with a gun. Weed 'em out of the gene pool, eh?
JL, I mentioned an established fact. You,on the other hand, are just being boring.
If you wish to debate, debate. That will require work.
#34,
So, how does it feel to have the political party that you support try to snuff out one of your favorite hobbies?
Just wondering...
I have a gun, but I can't say it's why I'm generally happy. In fact, I only have it through bizarre circumstances, not because I wanted it. I'd be just as happy a person without it. I'm pretty neutral about gun control, but I do wish there weren't so many handguns on the streets.
My youngest brother is a gun nut, NRA all the way, goes shooting, has a full gun vault, subscribes to magazines, whole nine yards. He'll say he's happy, but he's usually discontented with one thing or another.
So obviously there are different kinds of gun owners, with varying degrees of happiness, just like the general population.
I'm pretty tired of studies like this. One small aspect of someone's life or personality mixed with some emotion doesn't really mean much in a larger societal picture. As we've seen on this board, people tend to see the word "Christian" and automatically there is a stereotype applied, completely ignoring the fact that there are different kinds of Christians, with very different beliefs and political persuasions. Any poll that says "X % if Christians think blah" says nothing, because some of those Christians are liberals, and some are conservatives. Same with gun owners; some are liberal, some conservative, some radical libertarians and others totally apolitical.
Some are happy, some are depressed. Big whoop.
Now that I think about, maybe some of the depressed gun owners shot themselves.
Interesting study. One of the most pressing questions, however, is whether the mean temperature of said guns correlates to the owner's described level of happiness, as was first theorized by British researchers over 40 years ago.
34% will sound quite low to some European friends of mine. I have a Swedish friend who asked me if I had a gun since he assumed all Americans had them. (I do not.)
@ntns
hv bn prtcptng n thr BB tpcs, sr.
@ndythbrt
n 2005, thr wr 807 frrm scds n tngrs n th S. n th sm tm prd, 758 tngrs klld thmslvs by sffctn. Shll w bn rps, grdn hss, nd ntrnl cmbstn ngns?
Th strns fnd tht th rt f frrm lcnss ws *hghly* crrltd wth th frrm scd rt, bt *ncrrltd* wth th vrll scd rt, n th ppr "Scd by shtng s crrltd t rt f gn lcnss n strn cnts".
RSLTS: W fnd strng crrltn btwn th vrg gn lcns rt fr th prd 1990-2000 nd scds by shtng (r = 0.967), nd nly vry wk crrltn, nd fr sm f th yrs ndr nvstgtn ngtv crrltn, wth thr mthds f cmmttng scd (r = 0.117) nd th scd rt n gnrl (r = 0.383).
prsn tht klls thmslvs wth gn s jst s dd s n tht klls thmslvs wth rp, bt w wn't cll t bn rps. nstd, w chng th cltr nd tlk t r chldrn s thy dn't thnk tht kllng thmslvs s smthng thy shld prs.
@tkn
Wht stblshd fct ws tht?
@hrrkv
blv tht th Dms s whl hv mr ptntl t trn th S rnd. spprt Dmcrts lk Bll Rchrdsn, pr-chc, pr-nvrnmnt lbrl wh stll crrs cncld hndgn ccsnlly.
@TIKUAN "let's do a happiness survey of all those killed by guns"
Or a happiness survey of all those people saved/defended by guns.
#37 FYI I am not in favor of "gun bans," whatever that means. I wasn't arguing pro- or anti- guns, just proposing a hypothesis to explain the guns=happiness data.
Why don't you all have a look at the stats in #26 for a moment while I fetch something (don't worry, it isn't a weapon....much)
let's see; a link? a block quote? a link?.....nahh!
too important to let the lazy pretend it didn't happen:
February 8, 2008 - 7:01PM
Super Bowl massacre averted at last minute
Gary Grado, Tribune
A distraught Tempe man was within sight of the Super Bowl on Sunday with an assault rifle, but a change of heart kept him from unloading 200 rounds of ammunition on the crowd, court records show.
Gun in Super Bowl plot was banned, now popular
Drunkenstein's bar name scares off Tempe
Kurt William Havelock, 35, turned himself in Sunday to Tempe police and the FBI at the urging of family and confessed his plan, which he hatched in retaliation for the Tempe City Council rejecting a liquor license application for a restaurant and bar he owns.
According to court records, Havelock is charged with mailing threatening communications in the mailing of eight copies of a “manifesto” explaining the planned massacre.
“I will test the theory that bullets speak louder than words ... I will slay your children. I will shed the blood of the innocent,” Havelock wrote. “No one destroys my dream. No one.”
Magistrate Judge Edward V. Ross said in a hearing in U.S. District Court on Tuesday: “I haven’t read more chilling words, and I’ve been doing this a long time.” Ross found Havelock was a danger to the public and ordered him held without bail.
Havelock on Sunday mailed copies of the manifesto intended for friends and media from a post office at 59th and Peoria avenues in Glendale, but authorities were able to intercept them.
In the letters he says his family has been attacked and the futures of his children have been destroyed.
In October, Havelock was before the Tempe City Council to get approval for a liquor license application for a restaurant called The Haunted Castle, a Halloween-theme bar where horror-theme bands and actors could gather to promote themselves, according to city records.
Liquor licenses are typically rubber-stamped by city councils, whose votes are only advisory.
The State Liquor Board makes the final decision.
Council members, however, got word from a blog written by Havelock that the business would be called Drunkenstein’s and questioned him about it.
Havelock said there would be a sign with that name but would be only one corner of the business at 6463 S. Rural Road.
The council voted 6-1 to deny the application, which is still pending before the liquor board.
“Alas, this all boils down to an econopolitical confrontation. I cannot outvote, outspend, outtax, or outincarcerate my enemies,” Havelock wrote in the manifesto. “But for a brief moment I can outgun them.”
According to court testimony by FBI Special Agent Philip Thorlin and Havelock’s father, Frank Havelock, he bought an AR-15 assault rifle on Jan. 29 from Scottsdale Gun Club.
Thorlin described the rifle as the U.S. military’s weapon of choice.
Havelock began Sunday by going back to the gun club for target practice, but there was a private function and he couldn’t get in. Besides the rifle, Havelock was carrying at the time six 30-round magazines and 20 loose rounds.
Thorlin said Havelock’s original destination was Desert Ridge Marketplace in northeast Phoenix. It’s unclear according to court documents why Havelock changed his mind about Desert Ridge and headed for Glendale instead.
He drove to different post offices in the West Valley to obtain the envelopes and postage for his copies of the manifesto and mailed them before he went to the parking lot of Jobing.com Arena, which can be seen from University of Phoenix Stadium, where a host of activities were happening before the 4:30 p.m. kickoff.
“He waited about a minute and decided he couldn’t do this,” Thorlin said.
Havelock then called his fiancee and met his parents at his Tempe condominium.
“He was very upset, he was sobbing hysterically,” Frank Havelock said. “He said, ‘I’ve done something terribly, terribly wrong.’ ”
Frank Havelock believed his son was talking about financial problems he was having with his restaurant, which the elder Havelock learned about for only the first time on Sunday, but then he confessed about the letters and the rifle.
Frank Havelock said he went to his son’s car and moved the weapon and ammo to his car and persuaded him to turn himself into Tempe police.
When authorities searched Havelock’s car, they found another typed letter to police with a handwritten note at the bottom that read: “do not resuscitate.”
Havelock has no criminal history, and a mental health evaluation conducted at his arrest found “no mental defects” that would warrant a commitment to a mental hospital, Thorlin said.
Frank Havelock said he’s never had any problems with his son.
Neighbors who live next door said Havelock lived with his fiancee and two small children and two large dogs. Martin Trump and Danny Q. Rivera said Havelock kept to himself and had a variety of cars, including a white hearse with a vanity plate that read “drtnap.”
They were shocked to learn of Havelock’s plan to use an assault rifle on crowds at the Super Bowl.
“The Patriots versus the Giants — do you see the ironic parallel? How many dollars will you lose? And all because you took my right to work, to own a business, from me,” Havelock wrote in his manifesto.
"Perhaps ( Web sites) will print up some cool t-shirts like I SURVIVED SUPER BOWL XLII."
I recommend Jules Verne's from the earth to the moon for a very entertaining, albeit dated, European perspective of rampant American gun ownership. Jules Verne didn't think very much of Americans, apparently, to the point of stipulating that members of the American gun club averaged less then one arm each. You really have to laugh at the stereotype.
I have obtained a picture of Havelock
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2007/11/moeedition1.jpg
of course, some city councils are not so lucky
updated 2:02 a.m. EST, Fri February 8, 2008
Five shot to death at City Council meeting in Missouri
* NEW: Mayor was critically injured in shooting, hospital official tells AP
* Newspaper: Gunman had filed lawsuit on right to speak at meetings
* Gunman's brother says "my brother went to war tonight"
* Two of those killed were police officers; three were city employees
*
(CNN) -- A gunman killed five people and wounded two at a police station and City Council meeting in suburban St. Louis on Thursday night before officers shot and killed him, police said.
Wow another boingboing gun "discussion"! Look at all the pretty nonsense...
@50
Fr ngh, nd thnk thr's sm mt t tht. Th scnd mst ffctv mthd f scd s sffctn, nd th mthds t sffct nslf r mr wdsprd thn gns. S f th nhppy wr ffng thmslvs, nn gn wnrs wld b ffng thmslvs s wll.
Thr wr 15635 nn-frrm scds n 2005, cmprd t 17002 frrm scds.
f 34% f ppl n th S wn gns, nd thr r 17002 scds by gn (ll gn wnrs), nd 15635 nn-frrm scds, thn frrm scds wld rmv prprtnlly lrgr nhppy bt f th gn wnrs thn th nn-gn wnrs. Fr t t b wsh, thr wld b nly hlf th frrm scds s thr wr nn-frrm scds.
"let's do a happiness survey of all those killed by guns"
I dunno, Kurt Cobain seemed pretty happy; he was even on the TV! (and the walls and the couch)
Ct-nd-pstng msss f txt s nt n rgmnt, tkn. Y'r dltng th dscssn, n cld rg ntntnlly.
gee jingle, which bits are "nonsense"?
Gun owners have a 30% greater chance of dying from a gun in the home. John Kerry owns guns. A much higher percentage of Canadians own guns than Americans. Many gun owners are or were in the military. Amish don't own guns. And the conclusion I should draw from this is?
As far as the gun nut who thinks NYC and Chicago have some of the worse gun violence -- wrong. Try Houston, Miami, Atlanta, DC, and Baltimore. And why does DC and Baltimore have some of the worse? One word -- Virginia. Nice try.
How many of the gun owners out here, and I could care less about most guns being owned, have actually used them to "defend their freedom?" Don't justify your gun fetish on that kind of bull crap. People that own guns have a greater chance of dying than people who don't from violence and no one has defended their freedoms with their guns.
I just wanted to play the "see if you can find a flaw in the study" game . . . .
What does it mean the authorities were able to intercept the manifestos? I find that potentially the most worrying aspect of the article.
@61
"Gn wnrs hv 30% grtr chnc f dyng frm gn n th hm."
Src? f t's vrnt f th Kllrmn mthdlgy, t's bn dbnkd. Mst f th dcdnts n ths stds lv n vlnt nghbrhds nd hv flny rp shts. nd th stds dn't vn cntrl fr whthr th gn th dcdnt wnd s th n tht klld thm! Ldcrs xcss fr scnc.
"n n hs dfndd thr frdms wth thr gns."
http://www.clytncrmr.cm/gndfnsblg/blggr.html
I'm on the fence on this and I really don't belong there. In the last 5 years 2 members of my extended family killed themselves with guns. Within the last 2 weeks a close relative shot a friend to death in a freak accident. I should be hating on the guns with the best of them, but I'll still enjoy target shooting the next chance I get. I think we get accustomed to the danger and take them for granted.
Oh, and that 'protect the home' argument: pure unadulterated bullshit. Accidental gun deaths in the home outnumber successful defenses of the home by orders of magnitude. The disconnect here is that anyone can imagine that revolver in their hand when a burglar breaks in but nobody can imagine that their son could find where it's hidden.
@65
"h, nd tht 'prtct th hm' rgmnt: pr ndltrtd bllsht. ccdntl gn dths n th hm tnmbr sccssfl dfnss f th hm by rdrs f mgntd."
n 2005 thr wr 789 ccdntl frrm dths n ttl n th ntr S.
Dsn't t sm ldcrs tht thr wld b nly 7-8 dfnss f th hm wth frrms *n th ntr S* n tht yr, n rdr t mk yr sttmnt tr?
I'm right up there with #7 and #34. I own a 12-gauge pump-action and a .40 Sig Sauer P226, and while I don't get to the range as often as I'd like, I find target shooting to be relaxing and meditative. Good stance, place the sights, breathe evenly, squeeze; it's almost like a form of yoga.
"They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or antitrade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Isn't that the usual historical perspective? The economy starts to suck or society goes weird and the politicians hawk their usual fix-alls. People get bitter and become Know Nothings. Commie spies are executed. People complain in the expected manner and politicians are shuffled about. It's not really "guns or religion or [etc.]" that we bitter people cling to, it's whatever insignificant trope gives us a sense of self.
That said, I'm not convinced gun-ownership-to-happiness is the correct correlation. Gun-ownership just seems more likely to be an expression of something else that does correlate to happiness. Besides, what self-respecting paranoid answers a survey?
"Firearm suicide rates are strongly impacted by the rate of gun ownership. (Kaplan and Geling, 1998)"
excerpt: "When place of committing suicide was added to the equation, it was found that victims killing themselves at home were over 2.5 times as likely to use firearms as those dying in outdoor settings (OR = 2.501, CI = 1.078, 6.051)."
@26 cited the following statistics:
"In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004)"
*Legal Intervention*? Is that what they call it when they shoot some elderly grandmother at 3 a.m. in the morning because their CI lied about drugs being in the house? Wow, what a euphemism.
I'm waiting for the follow-up wherein we find that 34% of WoW player are still dateless losers who live in their mom's basement (and I say this as someone who has way too many days played on his rogue).
My mistake. I was referring to gun deaths of all intents. I stand corrected. According to the CDC, there were 30,694 gun deaths in the USA in 2005.
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html
@68
"Gn-wnrshp jst sms mr lkly t b n xprssn f smthng ls tht ds crrlt t hppnss."
xctly. wnng gn dsn't mk y hppy, myb f y'r hppy y'r mr lkly t by gn. dnn.
d thnk tht Sstr Y hs pnt, n tht gn wnng ppl mght b mr sccssfl n kllng thmslvs whn thy chs t d s thn nn-gn-wnng ppl, s nhppy gn wnrs mght tnd t b bl t kll thmslvs t hghr rts thn vrg. Tht wld b n ntrstng thng t lk t, n Frknmcs knd f wy.
@69
S? Dd t hm s jst s dd s dd tsd. Wht's yr pnt?
but they died for Freedom!
ctlly, rtrct tht. f thr r 200 mlln gns nd 130 mlln gn wnrs, thn th nmbrs r s lrg s t mk th scd nmbrs hv nglgbl mpct t crt s mny mr hppy gn wnrs. Smthng ls s t wrk.
something else indeed
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."
Frank Zappa
I tend to wonder how many non-gun owners out there are unhappy specifically because they are surrounded by people who choose to have a gun around. I know it would irritate the crap out of me.
@68,72
If someone obtains a gun solely to commit suicide, they might not have time to answer any happiness surveys, but they may be counted in firearms suicide rates.
Additionally, gun ownership provides access to more than just the owner. The whole situation is much more complex than the pro-skub/anti-skub dynamic allows.
"pr-skb/nt-skb"
Y wn t th ntrnts fr qtng PBF. Kds.
Of course, the fact that this article is in the spotlight at all is proof of the phenomenon that Senator Obama pointed to (albeit in a way that was offhandedly mentioned and so quickly taken out of context).
Gun control, when compared to Iraq, the economy, health care, and the environment, could just as easily be a non-issue in this campaign. But those issues are complicated, and it is more and more difficult to have a simple one word "yea or nay" response, or a sound byte solution to any of it.
As people become less confident in their future being better than their present, or bitter about their circumstances, they seem to gravitate to issues that divide us quickly and cleanly like gun control. Fear-based arguments (zomg! ppl has teh guns!1!, or wtf!? ppl want to take mah guns!) have a calming effect because at least you know where you stand. The media and the candidates themselves invoke these issues when they want to play us, and typically when they have nothing better to say.
But the point is that they distract us from the issues that really matter, that have the power to unite us toward a solution, and that unfortunately are much more difficult to define.
"Bt th pnt s tht thy dstrct s frm th sss tht rlly mttr, tht hv th pwr t nt s twrd sltn, nd tht nfrtntly r mch mr dffclt t dfn."
dnn. Gvn bm nd Clntn's grgs nt-gn psts, t's t thr bnft t sy thngs tllng ppl "w shldn't b tlkng bt gns hr" - bcs tlkng bt gns cn nly hrt thm. t rmns t b sn f thy wll gn tk p th gn-bnnr flg f thy ttn hgh ffc. My mny s n "ys".
Gns mttr t m, tht's fr sr.
@76
" tnd t wndr hw mny nn-gn wnrs t thr r nhppy spcfclly bcs thy r srrndd by ppl wh chs t hv gn rnd."
Lss ppl thn y wld prfr, prbbly. :P
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ECcS1leZQNk
or the less funny version
http://youtube.com/watch?v=viBsXakfTrI
@79...couldn't disagree more. I don't own a gun (mostly because I'm cheap and good guns are expensive), but Obama's anti-gun position is an important issue. Obama's campaign has previously said he supports Washington DC's ridiculous handgun ban, and of course now is trying to wiggle out of that position.
Oftentimes the positions a candidate takes on these sort of issues tells us a lot more than the policy speeches that other people write and the candidates regurgitate. For example, you can learn everything you'd want to know about the lying control freak POS that is John McCain by following his late 1990s vendetta against extreme fighting events.
@82
Tht ws fnny!
it's hysterically funny how politicos that will live their whole, cosseted, safe,heavily fenced lives come out on the side of the need to have guns to "protect oneself".
Translation: "Let the peasants slaughter each other, in this compound we have law"
Another example of how to lie with statistics...there is no explanation of the sampling error and whether the survey was a scientific one ... I think I am going to shoot myself or go bowling...
Wll, tkn, gvn tht mst f th njrs nd dths n yr scnd vd r frm ntnl rms nd nt frm ndvdl ctzn-wnd wpns, 'd sy tht th ctzns cn b trstd wth ddly wpns mch mr thn stts cn. Smwhr btwn 18-20 tms s mny ppl hv bn klld by gvrnmnts thn by rdnry prsn-t-prsn mrdr.
http://www.mg.n/mpp/rmml/pwr.rt.htm
Thnks fr th scnd vd.
♫ Don't try to understand 'em! ♪
♪ Disemvowel and then ban 'em! ♫
♫ Why? We've got reason on our side! ♪
♪ Shut 'em down, throw 'em out, ♫
♫ Throw 'em out, shut 'em down, ♪
♪ Troll on! ♫ ♫ ♫
Thanks to Noen for the inspiration.
Guns matter to me, that's for sure.
And there will always be some like you, for whom it is a pet issue. You'll want to further the argument.
But with the dollar in the crapper, an unprecedented budget deficit, a policy abroad that has another five countries in line for endless war beginning with Iran, the costs of health care skyrocketing with millions uninsured, and the earth's resources less and less able to sustain human life, I would argue that there are more important issues that concern quality of life for the average American than the ability to get a carry permit or own an assault rifle. You may disagree.
@#76 posted by Daemon , April 21, 2008 5:37 PM
And how many law abiding, tax paying gun owners out there are unhappy because people like you blame guns for mans inhumanity toward man? they're just inanimate objects that need to be treated with respect and caution, people like you would have parents lock their children up in the house until age 21 because the world is 'dangerous!'
Switzerland seems to do just fine giving every 20 year old male who hasn't figured out how to get out of military duty a full automatic riffle and ammunition to use (against any foreign invaders, one hopes). Hell, they even let the kids (20 year olds) carry them around willy nilly (well.. respectfully, and it might not happen as much now as it did 30 years ago, but it still happens)
Gttng klld by gn vlnc s fr lss lkly thn gttng klld by yr mthr wh dcds tht shs nt 'rdy' t brng y t trm nd gv y wy, bt gss nc yr brn y knd ls sght f ll th nfrtnt stff tht hppns t chldrn dpndnt f th cr f thr mthrs (nt: 'm fr mthrs^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwmns rght t chs, t ths pnt n my lf hr n rth, nd whl 'm fr gn rghts dn't ctlly wn, r pln t by, gn)
Is there a corollary to Godwin's Law about discussions tangentially related to guns, and abortion?
#67
"Good stance,"
Lotus position
"place the sights"
about three feet in front you, eyes slightly closed
"breathe evenly"
Look, owning a gun, learning to use it well, and importantly when to use it involves the zen of personal responsibility. And with a gun, the stakes can be high, so the zen value is high.
Being responsible enough to own a gun affirms you have a level of discipline. You might even be disciplined enough for self determination.
What's not to be happy about?