Bush administration: Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to domestic military operations
Danny sez, "Following on from the memo allowing torture overseas, Kurt Opsahl from EFF has spotted a footnoted reference to a memo from the Administration that says 'our Office recently concluded that the Fourth Amendment had no application to domestic military operations.'
So, if you're abroad and deemed an enemy combatant you can be tortured. If you're in the US, and you're caught up in a "military operation", you lose the bill of rights. Where exactly is the constitution supposed to apply?"
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Speaking of living a false delusion...
When is Bush ordering the National guard to start wearing red coats?
"Where exactly is the constitution supposed to apply?"
It doesn't. Haven't you people been paying attention to the last 7 years?
Isn't it time to acknowledge that the U.S. has been under Martial Law since shortly after 9-11?
All that's missing is the name.
PAPERS! May I haf your papers, bitte!
Sheesh.
i hate cops
God almighty this moron can't get out of office fast enough......
We are one more "terrorist act on US soil" away from National Socialism.
\War is Peace
\\Freedom is Slavery
\\\Ignorance is Strength
\\\\Amsoc above All
I'm not advocating anything here, but whatever happened to the bit about defending the United States from all threats, foreign AND DOMESTIC? If you ask me, this sorta thing SURE sounds like a domestic threat to my country. Then again, I'm old-fashioned, and believe that one of the best things about our Constitution is (was?) the Bill of Rights.
At least I've got a backup plan if things head south quickly around here - my fiancée is French. Dual citizenship FTW.
To steal a line from Randy Newman's great song, "A Few Words in Defense of Our Country:"
"A President once said,
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"
Now it seems like we’re supposed to be afraid
It’s patriotic in fact and color coded
And what are we supposed to be afraid of?
Why, of being afraid
That’s what terror means, doesn’t it?
That’s what it used to mean"
Since when has Bush done anything but wipe his ass with the Constitution?
not to worry, the high degree of political awareness, the defiance of overbearing authority and the the extreme reluctance to resort to force of the the typical American solider will protect you from any misuse of the military against civilians.
i hate cops
what does this have to do with the cops?
Isn't it time to acknowledge that the U.S. has been under Martial Law since shortly after 9-11?
9-11-1862? Yeah.
Crap like this is why we have a 2nd amendment.
Second Amendment and snark are all well and good, but seriously, can we get the Supreme Court on this, like, ASAP?
Takuan in #11
"not to worry, the high degree of political awareness, the defiance of overbearing authority and the the extreme reluctance to resort to force of the the typical American solider will protect you from any misuse of the military against civilians."
Wow, did you know me when I was in the Navy?
I've always been cantankerous. I've always been a grand believer in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I've always known that following illegal orders will land you in Nuremberg, and I've always believed in the Geneva Convention.
In fact that was true when I did Army basic training between my Jr. and Sr. years in high-school as well.
All that said, while many soldiers believe as I did (and do) there are plenty that don't. And with the increasing police-icization (is that a word?) of the military I suspect those of us who really took seriously the "defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic" are rapidly being outnumbered by the "because we're in charge" crowd.
I weep for my brothers and sisters. (and the rest of the nation as well)
-abs
I know several people who would respond to this story by saying, "Hey, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about. Only criminals are always crying about their rights."
Or at least that's how they responded to many similar stories in the past.
the word you are looking for is "privatization", or possibly "commericalization"
When the hell will the people of amerika rise up??? WTF is wrong with you? The entire world is wondering why you elected a moron, why you declared war on everyone, why you abuse your own citizens, torture prisoners, maintain concentration camps, spend a billion dollars a day on a war that is idiotic and still sleep at night.
What the hell is wrong with you? Did you not study history? I wish I lived in the US so I could lead a protest!!
Do you remember when there was a 'coalition of the willing' to make Iraq another state of the US? WTF happened to the search for Bin Laden? Suddenly oil is double the price and no-one is making any noise?
Forgive me if I say it but amerika deserves to die. You were the great ideal once but now you're just sheep. You are already dead, you just don't know it yet. Maybe when you're done screwing over the world you'll figure it out.
And here is my last bit of vitriol: go to any country anywhere in the world and wave your flag proudly. See how long you live.
Censor me if you like. I already know how this ends.
All you paranoid liberal nutjobs are flying off the handle over a president that just wants to protect your children!! Get a life!!
I kid, I kid. Just thought I'd say it before our resident apologists-for-power chimed in with it.
But seriously, our constitution and society are extremely vulnerable to subversion in this way. That's why citizen groups like the ACLU are so important--because they take these things to court, and court precedents are very important in preventing and fighting this kind of thing.
As for the type of society that stands still for stuff like this, I can only quote Scoutmaster from the Dangers of Giant National Database thread:
"A whole lot of people believe that it's more important to do what you're told than to do what you think is right.... For them, thinking for yourself, being responsible, is horror and chaos. For them to think other people aren't under similar constraints is abject fear."
How on-the-nose is that? This describes to a T so many people I know!
PS: hey, ACLU--how come your stickers always peel off my car after 24 hours? Make better stickers, I beg you!
Thank you #9~!
That is why there is the second Amendment, so that We the American people can rise up and overthrow an unjust ruler sic. G.W. Bush. So when the end of his term is neigh and he formally declares martial law and suspends the election, we can rise up and slay his illegal government!
(I still get to fly, right?)
I don't want a flame-war. Don't waste time even responding to my rant. DO SOMETHING.
They have repeatedly said they (Cheney and Addington) intend to keep pushing until they meet some resistance. So far they have met none. Not from Congress and not from the people.
Nice to see that someone who "doesn't want a flame war" can be as coherent as the nutjob who is running our country. Separated at birth?
Thank goodness we have the Bush Administration to tell us what the Constitution really means. Before they came into power I wouldn't have known that the prevention of suspending the writ of habeas corpus only applies to those to which it has already been granted (???), that searches don't require warrants if the government feels that they are really important, and that the military can be deployed to search homes domestically without a rebellion taking place. I feel so silly now! If it wasn't for the Bush Administration I would have thought that the meaning of the Constitution was contained in its wording.
Oh Craig,
Your attitude is no different than the attitude of Americans that you so obviously loathe. "Why won't somebody ELSE do something?" Those Americans who even care about the current situation don't act because they a) don't think it will matter b) think somebody else is already acting for them and/or 3) haven't realized they should act, but instead whine about how nobody else is acting.
If you really cared you could be protesting for your own government (where ever it is that you live) to do something useful like call for the arrest and trial of Bush et al for war crimes, or at least go public with the fact that he's not welcome around for state dinners anymore.
I don't see any of our "allies" in the world holding us accountable. Perhaps their citizens aren't demanding it?
So, just sit back and lay your blame on the American people for all of this. That's the easy, lazy thing to do, isn't it? How American of you.
@#11: "the high degree of political awareness, the defiance of overbearing authority and the the extreme reluctance to resort to force of the the typical American solider will protect you from any misuse of the military against civilians."
Sure. Under martial law, abusing civilians is what the police are for.
Craig,
You won't be so uppity when we annex Canada. Imagine Guam, only really, really cold.
i have marched in a dozen peaceful protests over the last 6 years, ALL FOR NOTHING! i, for one, am getting sick and tired of the continued misuse of the constitution and the bill of rights! must we wait for marshall law to be declared before we, as a people, rise up and DO SOMETHING? they are already beginning to wage war on iran, do we wait til the troops are sent in en masse? i'm beginning to pull out my hair with frustration at both the administration and the populace. sigh. to all humans not affiliated with this country, i fell i must apologise . our president and vice president, in fact this whole admin. is pure evil, i am sorry...
Ceronomus:
Alls I'm sain is fixumacate it. Yew have a screwedimified country. And thats OK. I'm just shakin my hed and wonderin how such an intelugunt, bright, wonderful, free place is suddenly terrimified to the point of prosecutioning everyone and letting god sort 'em out.
Again, don't respondify; make the insanity stop. If you are a US citizen you have the power. More power than that guy in Afghanistan who's going to be shot in the head tomorrow morning for trying to get some water.
Please don't reply. DO SOMETHING.
@28
Well, given that the military in Vietnam couldn't tell which way was up between north and south, fighting in the streets with people who look, talk and share much of the same culture would be rather difficult.
As a voter who was disenfranchised in the 2004 election, tell me again how "I have all the power." Really, I love hearing about that when I wasn't even allowed to vote.
Hey Craig? Don't reply, get of YOUR ass and do something too. I have been, and my efforts have gotten ZERO results.
So, as a citizen of a government who doesn't give a damn about it citizens I must point out that you have as good, if not better, of a chance of forcing change in the US at the moment. After the next election?
Well, here is hoping that I get to vote this time.
Oh, and Craig? Your response is too coherent, so I apologize for thinking you were related to Bush. Everyone knows that HE spells it "Fihksoomikat"
Hi Craig,
I'm planning on doing something. I'm planning on voting. Same as I have every year. I'm also planning on pissing off my friends by talking politics at them until they get off their asses and vote too. (also the same as I do all the time)
Since the climate in the US is not currently one that would allow armed revolution I'm not on-board with anything else at the moment. When that climate changes I'll consider it.
For now I prefer the Rule of Law.
But if it gets much worse I'll have to start looking at the weather more often, so to speak.
-abs
The sad thing is that this administration is so obsessed with "national security" and the "war on terrorism" and so focused on this that they are forgetting what we as a nation stand for--or used to stand for. Constitutionally, the executive branch is weak. Read the document; Congress has the power. But over the course of history, somehow John Yoo's "Unitary Executive Theory" has become a reality. While I know that national security is a very pressing issue, it's not the only issue that we face in our society. And really... I don't think we have much of a society to protect. But regardless, it doesn't take the study of legal cases about warrantless searches and seizures to know that this "shocks the conscious" of even the most morally bankrupt Americans, even if they are watching MTV, playing video games, and planning to shoot up their school.
Mintfresh: don't apologize, and don't give up. Keep fighting the good fight.
I'd like to add here, if it's not too off-topic, that Mr. Supposedly Against Torture John McCain recently failed to live up to that position in the Congress.
So now the idea that waterboarding is not torture is the law of the land. Thanks, Congress!
PS: why is Craiggnoble yelling at people who agree with him, and why has he started talking like Li'l Abner? :)
I'm more depressed by the day. I would say that I can't wait for Jan 20 2009, but that will change little to nothing. We aren't getting out of Iraq. We will probably go into Iran, or stay if we are already there (well... we probably are). We will continue to ignore international law. We will continue to treat our citizens like criminals... etc, etc. And I don't think it matters if we take to the street to protest and vote in the dems in November... Obama or Hilary, either, it doesn't matter because nothing real will change. Obama's deal is working within the system, but what about the system itself? I'm really at a lost for what to do... we can get incremental change of sort, but that is about all we're gonna get.
Craig- yes, we can get out on the street and raise a ruckus, but frankly, all we'll get are democrats who are just as bad as the repubs. And what would an out and out revolt change, really? Not much... It would still end up the same old system or possibly some sort of cult of personality regimes that far too many revolutions end up as. What happens to the idealistic revolutinaries when the revolution is over? They have to run a country, that's what. They get stuck in the same conundrums that those who run nation-states get into now. No one EVER questions the system, and tries to fix that in any meaningful way.
I'm really at a loss to know what to do about this or anything else... It makes me understand why so many in the 60s just sort of gave up...
Mindy
xopl;
I'm not an american. and, yes, I have protested the shit out of this. and, yes, your government doesn't want me in their homeland.
I'm pretty much betting that I can't fly anywhere. I don't want to try that theory because my guess is that I would end up in a torture cell for five years with no trial, no charges, no recourse and lots and lots of torture.
Forgive me if I say 'wake the hell up'. You and your country are doing really, really bad things. If you aren't doing anything to stop it then you are collaborating.
----------
Antinous:
I said I didn't want a flame war. I think you underestimate the resolve of Canada. I think your president underestimates it. We're not in your war, we welcome your draft-dodgers, we have peace and sovereignty. And the last time I checked your dollar was plummeting as everyone suddenly realizes that you are spending a shitload of money on a made-up crusade and the foreclosure-guy is knocking at the door.
Maybe we should close our border now.
What I can tell Americans is: "beware the military governments".
This kind of action (deciding for the suspension of civil rights and allowing the use of brute force for extracting information - and confessions) was largely used by dictatorial governments in Latin America in the 60ies and 70ies.
I think that Bush administration is taking a lot of "preemptive" actions directed to assure continuity. And I feel that these people wont be ashamed to go as far as they think necessary.
Here in the lands of south we have large experience in governments closing congress, closing courts, establishing "state of emergency" (and it would be easy to do that, all they have to do is to blow up another building...).
Remember that lost freedom takes decades to be found again.
@ Craig in #39
"Forgive me if I say 'wake the hell up'. You and your country are doing really, really bad things. If you aren't doing anything to stop it then you are collaborating."
Whoah there cowboy. I call "Bullshit".
Collaboration requires action. French who didn't help the Nazis were NOT collaborators, they were victims. Your usage implies that everyone who wasn't a member of La Resistance was a collaborator, and that's just wrong. That term has a specific meaning, and you are misusing it badly.
If someone helps the Bushies, then they're collaborating. If someone fights them they're resisting. The rest of the people might morally repulse you because of their inaction, but they aren't collaborators.
-abs
Please make the big movement. I don't care what it is but please DO SOMETHING. You are already inside. You are smart people, you know what's going on. Your news progammes tell you the body count from Afghanistan and Iraq every evening, right? You are watching this... uh... because you're paying for it... uh... explosions... people dead... your entire country on a mortgage to the East... hello?
On the other hand; maybe I'm nuts. It's plausible that I see conspiracies where there are none.
What makes this particularly worrying is the last eight years of filling vacant spots in the lower courts with judges who only make passing reference to the law. As it stands, this sort of thing is merely an opinion, the justification that would be used in court if it ever came up. it isn't law. however, as much as conservatives like to bleat on about judicial activists, if you look at recent [conservative] supreme court decisions, they come dangerously close to giving 'because I said so' as justifications of their opinions. Also, seeing as this applies to domestic military operations, by the time a fourth amendment violation got to court, Operation Dumbo Drop would be complete; I don't see Barney Fife going down to arrest the generals for constitutional breach. just why is the US preparing to attack its own citizens anyway? Are you guys actually terrorists? Tell the truth now.
Of course this all leads back to my pet theory that the United States is anarchy in action, but I'll save that for when the trolls arrive.
Okay, I give up. There. You win.
Yippee.
"A whole lot of people believe that it's more important to do what you're told than to do what you think is right.... " (comment #20)
For them, doing what you're told is the right thing to do.
You're not nuts. There are major problems in the US today. The "war" in Iraq is one, but not the only one, and from my perspective not the important one either. (Personally I'm more concerned about the abridgement of civil rights.)
What you are doing however is overestimating the amount of power anyone in America has. So long as the Rule of Law remains in force Americans have little choice about doing anything.
The only power the American people have, within the law, is that of voting the bastards out. Protests are cute and cuddly and all, but they have no force within the eyes of the law. All they can do is hope to convince voters that the NEXT TIME they vote they should vote better.
Beyond that the options of an average American are about nil, provided they do wish to resort to extra-legal sanctions.
And most of us Americans don't think assassinating our government officials for their actions is a really good idea. (at the moment we don't at least) Most of us think Anarchy would be worse.
(If you're Canadian you should bloody well prefer our current state to anarchy as well. If you really think about what the repercussions on Canada would be in the event of REAL anarchy in the USA you would never want it.)
I understand you're frustrated. So am I. But put the rhetoric aside and be realistic about what Americans can and can't do about their government. It won't make you less frustrated, but at least you'll sound more sane.
-abs
Craig, you're telling us to do something, but what should we do, in your opinion? What is to be done? A revolt (end result, violent oppression, things worse than before)? A protest movement (cooption that leads to only incremental change)? I think that there is a whole other level to this that I see no way out of, if that makes any sense. You work within the system, your screwed, you work outside the system, you get nohwere, marginalized and ignored.
See why we're frustrated? It's not that many of us don't think your right, and lots of us are doing stuff... but...
I'm just at a loss, frankly. I think I'm not the only one.
Mindy
#19 - I don't suppose you have any specific suggestions about what "DO SOMETHING" would actually involve, do you? Because people *have* been trying. Maybe not as many as I wish, but still a hell of a lot of people, and nothing we're doing appears to be working. We want to stop it, we want to "do something," *we just don't have a damned idea what to do that could actually accomplish anything at all.*
Conventional protests are apparently completely useless - they happen frequently, and mean nothing. Voting drives and similar efforts are omni-present, and maybe that will result in positive change following next November, and maybe it won't. Armed revolution and the like just ain't gonna happen, and any attempt would be a disaster on par with 9-11 that would make our current national state of sociopathic, xenophobic paranoia look like a minor nervous twitch.
So please, for god's sake, if you have any ideas, please share them with us.
You aren't in "Our War" Craig? Last time I checked, Canadian troops aren't due to be pulled out of Afghanistan until maybe Feb 2009.
As for Iraq? That is nobody's war but Bush's.
Go easy on Craig.
As hard as the current administration are on American citizens who complain, they're much, much harder on foreign nationals who complain and then fall into their grasp.
Redaction (kidnapping) and water-boarding (torture) are just the beginning.
And Canadians get no leniency. In fact, Canadians have become somewhat of a target for refusing to invade Iraq, criticizing U.S. policy on domestic spying and torture, not cooperating with REAL ID and Total Security Awareness, and resisting efforts to militarize the U.S.-Canada border (among other acts of "terrorist support").
Clean up your yard, America. All of your neighbors are complaining.
Craig,
We don't really have flame wars on Boing Boing. We do try to have a sense of humor. What seems to be happening here is that you're screaming and everybody else is scratching their heads wondering why.
I'm not clear why someone in Canada is so interested in vilifying individual citizens of the US. Maybe you don't keep up on economic news. Our lives have kind of gone to hell down here. Many of my compatriots have lost their homes. We've certainly lost our liberties. If I could find a Canadian guy to marry me (and big thanks for making sodomy not just legal but glamorous), I'd be up there last week. Are you hating on the Burmese for their government? The people of Zimbabwe? Yeah, our government sucks. Is that a good reason to hurl poo at us?
Mindy:
You sound like an idealistic person. You're exactly the kind of person who must not get discouraged or succumb to despair.
Hope is the only thing they CAN'T take away from you. They can only gleefully accept it as a gift from you, and congratulate themselves on having worn you down and won that way.
Where would we be if the Civil Rights Movement gave up? They didn't capitualte to depair, and they were being murdered and beaten. I think we can tough it out here, don't you?
Per the Dems: I'm as dissatisfied with them as anyone, and they are decidely too centrist for me, but until a viable third party candidate comes along, the only rational political position to take is to support them. They are at the moment to only alternative to the Republicans.
Three weeks ago, I watched "V for Vendetta" for the first time. The parallels were absolutely chilling. I believe this country was founded on freedom as its guiding principle, not safety. And yet, as our standard of living has grown, We The People have demanded safety: safety from Big Bad Businessmen, safety from hurting ourselves as we voluntarily ride motorcycles, safety from vaguely threatening folks from the other side of the world. I will never make my kids wear helmets or pads (hell, by not wearing those as a bike-riding, skateboarding kid, I learned how to fall) and I teach them to stand up for themselves and to do so for the weaker amongst them. I will not live as a victim and I will not perpetuate that mindset in my family. The government should fear the People, the People should never fear their government.
CStatman, this isn't the police. Let's pray it stays that way.
Craig Noble, we understand your frustration. We've been living with insane levels of frustration for a long time now. Believe me. We know.
Also, can you please make that first screed of yours your ceiling for inflammatory language? It's no damned use to tell us that if we're not fighting back, we're collaborators. Many of us have fought back on every occasion we could.
When is the rest of the world going to figure out that this is a years-long slow-motion coup, and send in the UN peacekeepers and election observers?
Oh and as it relates to protesting in this country, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the repression and persecution of ordinary citizens of the US that tried protesting the WTO meetings held here. Remember? Governors and mayors conspired to outlaw lawful peaceful protest. The times they gotta change...
ACK Ack ACK Aack ack ack ACK Ack!
Remember when they look at each other, shrug and say "it worked the last time" and then go back to "We come in peace" as they fry the Earthmen?
That is you. And the Martians are the neo-con mafia.
ACK Ack ACK Aack ack ack ACK Ack!
It alarms me that I knew exactly what this references without reading any further.
#50 is right - inflamatory language in general probably won't help anything, and I desperately hope the those outside the US are at least vaguely aware that many Americans are aware of what our country has been responsible for around the world and have been trying (however unsuccessfully) to stop or even mitigate it. But given the severity of our country's actions, the rest of the world has every logical reason and right to be incredibly frightened and angry.
Want to help? Go to *your* governments. Go to the UN. America doesn't seem to be capable of stopping itself at this point. We are a rogue state, we're out of control, and our locally-grown agents of sanity are trying to reign us in, and it's not working. We need help. I doubt it could actually happen here and now, but for our own sakes and those of everyone else I wish the UN was actually powerful enough to step in here.
The coup taking place is slow, but it's happening quickly and overtly enough that we could stop it if we cared enough.
The fact that it's so overt is the neo-cons' way of saying two things: 1) See? Americans agree with us, or we couldn't do this; and 2) Protest, you little pissants. You can't stop this.
It's time to prove them wrong on both counts.
Per frustration: sometimes I'm so sick at heart that I want to go out and kill honeybees so as to hasten the demise of our species!
Then it passes and sanity returns.
The EFF is jumping to some pretty far-out conclusions here.
When you are talking about "Authority for Use of Military Force to Combat Terrorist Activities Within the United States" you are talking about the imposition of martial law, which would suspend the fourth amendment among others. If there was a severe terrorist attack that put the population of a city in to mass panic, I could see where military force could be required. I really don't think this applies to domestic surveillance.
I don't put much stock in one organizations's opinion or propaganda, which is all this EFF article is. Does anyone else here see how crying "surveillance on the everyday communications of millions of americans" vs. "terrorists are constantly trying to kill millions of americans" show just about the same level of fermongering?
fear not. A great underclass looms. When enough are hungry, change comes.
**note - the "want to help - go to your governments" was directed at Craig, and any others around who are posting from outside the US. Our country desperately needs to be called on its actions, and the governments of Europe are the closest things to friends that we still have have. People might bitch and moan, but we aren't *actually* going to bomb France.
Teresa @#54 asks:
"When is the rest of the world going to figure out that this is a years-long slow-motion coup, and send in the UN peacekeepers and election observers?"
A team of monitors observed the 2004 United States election, after concerns of voter inaccuracy in the 2000 U.S. election:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election%2C_2004#International_observers
I wonder how many people, twenty years down the road when all the dirty laundry has been dug up and classified memos published, will actually admit to having voted for Bush.
"Oh, I was a Republican back then, but I could tell he wasn't a real conservative."
Nick-
Thanks, I guess... I don't know how idealistic it is to see the system as the problem. That means that no matter what, we're up that brown creek of poo completely paddle-less, and short of life vest. It waffles between humans being responsible and the system being responsible... the system has become invisible and human action is almost an after thought when we assign blame...
The two party duopoloy, as Nader likes to call it, doesn't let viable third parties into the game, hence we will never know if a 3rd party can be viable. Let's take Nader... he made serious inroads in 00, and look what happened to him- the democrats decided that those votes "belonged" to them, and that mean old Ralph stole them. What has a tendency to happen is that the major parties will often co-opt 3rd party positions to bring some of those folks into the fold, at least in the past. Now they don't have to budge an inch, because CNN and Fox will tell everyone that the 3rd party candidates are just crazy go nuts, and either "liberal" (ie communist) or "conservative (ie fascist). They don't need to give, and this is what has happened to the democrats, most especially (for some reason liberalism is worse than conservatism).
Sure, in theory, black Americans are now equal. In theory. Reality is another ball game. There is still economic and social inequalities, but of course, people start yelling "affirmative action is bad for white men" and "reverse racism" and everyone backs off, because that's "liberalism" or communism, and that's bad. And we still have far more black men in jail than white. And we have subprime lenders going into communities that "regular" banks won't touch, and then the rug gets yanked out...
Sure, I'll vote. I'll pick a side. Sure, I'll be part of the system, but how am I supposed to hang onto my idealism, my love of humanity, when I'm part of the system, that keeps people doing these awful things to one another (Kosova, Bosnia, Rwanda, The Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, the Cultural revolution, the world wars, the holocaust, the Armenian genocide, the native Americans, slavery, imperialism, colonialism- and these are just the big ones off the top of my head). I guess my question is- what do we do about modernity? I suppose I could drop out, but then nothing gets changed, and no one is around to say anything... so here I am. I can point and tell everyone what I think the problem is, and I can have a forum, thanks to the internet, but god damn if things will change because I rant, either in the tubes, or in my academic work, or whatever.
See my problem, Nick?
Mindy
#59 -- Stop it, how? Protests are dismissed or ignored. I call and write my congressmen. I vote when given the chance. None of it seems to make a difference, not that I've stopped trying.
The constitution is dead, or at least parts of it. Coming this November, whoever wins, the constitution looses. You have to pick. One candidate will do all that they can to ignore/abolish the 4th and 5th amendments, and the other will do all they can to destory the 2nd amendment. If you believe, like me, that the ENTIRE constitution is worth defending, then you are out of luck.
The trouble is, that, even now, there is no civilized country that has the freedoms that America still allows you to have.
This discussion gives me faith. It's not all done for.
I have no problem being some sort of target. There is never anything fatal. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir.
I have this to say:
Take it back. I don't know how, I don't know what, but your values and opinions and way of life have been taken away from you. Take them back. Stop killing people. Stop torturing people. Stop ignoring those less fortunate. Stop just being really, really evil.
If this were a galaxy far, far away; yer bildin teh deth str.
Does anyone else here see how crying "surveillance on the everyday communications of millions of americans" vs. "terrorists are constantly trying to kill millions of americans" show just about the same level of fermongering?
WeightedCompanionCube:
Your comment presupposes that my and others' positions are predicated on the statements of one organization (EFF), rather than on our lived experience of the past eight years, and on our analysis of recent events and legislative abominations.
The problem with recent (past eight years or more) legislation is twofold:
1) it increasingly accords the Executive Branch the power to be the sole arbiter of what constitutes a threat, what constitutes an enemy, what constitutes reasonable cause, what constitutes legality, etc., etc., etc. The list goes on and on;
and
2) it increasingly positions the military, under direct command of the Commander-in-Chief, as the sole administrator of order and the rule of law. As these things are interpreted solely by--guess who?-- the Commander-in-Chief.
All of which is a subversion the idea that the military is answerable to the civil government.
Thus we have Bush saying that the sole reason he needs to do whatever he wants in the area of surveillance or security is that he thinks it's a good idea.
There are those who downplay recent amendments to laws by saying, "This has been in force for years, it's nothing new, we've always had provisions for martial law."
My question for them is: why then do we need to make these changes? Changes to laws that were good enough for us during WWII, in the wake of Pearl Harbor? Why is it that Roosevelt could combat Tojo and Hitler under these laws, but Bush finds them too constraining?
I invite you to prove me wrong. If you can, I will thank you for it, I promise.
I think there's been some confusion about the duties of the members of our federal government. I'd just like to put up a quick reminder.
President's oath of office:
"I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Congressional oath of office:
"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."
Judicial oath of office:
"I do solemnly swear that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me under the Constitution and laws of the United States. So help me God."
and
"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."
Of course, its a bit old fashioned, but may i suggest that since economic power and political or legal power are inextricably linked, it may be wise to seize economic power throuh workplace organisation? Easier said than done, I know, but the fact is any real problem for US citizens, apart from increasing un and under employment, lies squarely in the future. It remains a rich country, and as much as we take the piss, a cultured country, of sorts, which is to say plenty of distractions. You can still, for instance, go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art for free, which is enough to last many lifetimes.
The word radical literally means at the roots; it assumed its present meaning throuh marx, for whom radicalism was precisely getting to the roots of politics and power. so throuh research, we can begin to understand where exactly politicians get off spouting the crap they do; but to change things, that is something that can only be understood through practise. People have tried, succeeded and failed to change thins for as lon as there have been things to change. If you're from the US, the reason you didn't have to work sixteen hours a day six days a week in a coal mine or at a loom is because people fought, bled and died for the right not to do that, a cause much more worthy than your war of independence...and because some poor kids in Singapore are stuck doing it now.
historically, progressive elements are marginalised as a state moves toward more totalitarian powers, so simply meeting a few like minded mates in a pub once a week, month whatever to discuss what's going on is probably an excellent start. I mean, just see what happens. or do people need to be told even how to do this these days?
"I know several people who would respond to this story by saying, "Hey, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about. Only criminals are always crying about their rights."
My reply to this is always "If you have nothing to hide, why bother sending your mail in an envelope? Would not a postcard be easier and cheaper?..."
#23 Noen - citation please?
#60 -
Well, there's two parts here, weightedcompanioncube. Firstly, there's no mention of martial law in the memo reference. If you read it in the context of the original memo, it seems clear to me that the implication is that the memo is claiming that the fourth amendment does not apply to *any* military domestic operation, not just those under martial law. Martial law is the ultimate act, and not one to be undertaken lightly. As the Supreme Court said: "If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war." That's a far step from any domestic military action.
Personally, I find that easily disturbing enough, and I think that's what most of the people here are upset about.
Your second part is connected to EFF's current lawsuit regarding warrantless surveillance. You should understand that EFF is currently in a lawsuit where the government has yet to present its case as to why it believes that its program is legal, although it has repeatedly asserted that it is, and has indeed fought against having to define its defence in court. It has also attempted to change the law to grant retroactive immunity to the defendants in our case, which I humbly suggest might indicate that they are not quite as confident of their legal position as all that.
Of course we are going to assert that what is taking place is warrantless wiretapping of millions. The telcos arguments in Washington that our lawsuit would bankrupt them (their argument, not ours) also seem to back this up, as only the penalties attached to the illegal wiretapping of millions of Americans would cost that much (statutory fines are on a per person basis - a few thousand American contacts of suspects would be pocket change to the telcos).
The questions this Deeplink is mulling is what exactly is the Administration's case that their program was legal. As far as EFF is concerned, both the law and the constitution rules against wiretapping the domestic communications of Americans (we're not talking about domestic->foreign calls here). I don't think it's fearmongering to actually mull what argument is being made behind closed doors. We're as curious as anyone else -- that's part of the many, many reasons that EFF wants this case to continue.
It's painful as hell to stand by and watch this train wreck happening on the other side of the border, and to be unable to participate actively in the process. From a Canadian perspective it is hard to appreciate how entirely fubar'd the American political process is.
You have to remember that up here we produce a major new political party every couple of decades. They often get absorbed into the current edition of the Conservative Party eventually, because the Liberals have effectively staked out the broad political center for so long that they are know as "the natural governing party" in some circles.
But when crazy groups like the CCF/NDP, the Progressives, the Social Credit, Reform/Alliance and the Bloc Quebecois form they are effective at shifting the balance within and between the two major parties. The Greens might be the next force to be reckoned with if they can dump their doctrinaire lefty leader and broaden their appeal to homeless Red Torys.
So from our point of view, the American political process is almost incomprehensibly broken. We feel like we're standing on the outside and if we were just there we could do something. But we forget that unlike Canada, the United States has a completely moribund political culture.
And that is the fundamental enabler for Bush and company. They have no real opposition. It is the political class vs the people, and neither party is on your side.
I don't know what I'd do if I was an American right now. Probably join the Democratic Party and work for change from within, in the hope that a generation from now the rule of law would be restored. Or maybe attack partisans from the outside, and encourage independents to run.
Either way, it is the work of a generation, just like the Civil Rights movement was. You guys are good at this stuff, once you figure out where you want to go and have a rough idea of how to get there.
I just hope that the Bill of Rights isn't completely shredded first. Pasting it back together again would be for another generation entirely.
Mindy: idealism isn't the belief that the system is good or getting better, or even that it CAN get better. It is simply the belief that it should be better.
My ethos dictates that I have to fight for my ideals whether or not I believe I can win. Anything less is cowardice.
Per your other comments: I think you're letting your discouragement color your views. Ask any black man or woman if they would rather be living today or in the 1950s. I think they will, to a person, answer that things are better today. How can you not be encouraged by that?
@ Bluemonq: thank you. I don't think we can remind ourselves too often of what our officials are supposed to be loyal to, by law. Bush's sin is that he has demanded loyalty to nothing but himself. Shame on him and those who have played that game. May they rot in hell.
# 75, Tom said "So from our point of view, the American political process is almost incomprehensibly broken. We feel like we're standing on the outside and if we were just there we could do something. But we forget that unlike Canada, the United States has a completely moribund political culture.
And that is the fundamental enabler for Bush and company. They have no real opposition. It is the political class vs the people, and neither party is on your side."
I think you hit the nail on the head on that count.
#70- Agreed.
#71- Again, agreed. It's quite powerful, but the state of the unions is pretty sorry right now, and of course, Unions can often have their own problems. So, again, we get back to the system, or in the case of unions, another system...
Mindy
so, you think the election will change anything?
Nick D - I didn't argue there was a problem with recent legislation. I was referring solely to the EFF's conclusions and argument that this administraton is possibly conducting surveillance on "millions of Americans". I don't agree with that kind of paranoid assumption any more than I agree with giving up civil liberties because "if you don't, the terrorists will kill millions"
Oh, and if the question is "Why is it that Roosevelt could combat Tojo and Hitler under these laws?" Look up Executive Order 9066, and consider that was enacted after a clear military target was attacked by a clear military combatant. 9/11 saw a civilian target get attacked, which is a situation far more unexpected and uncertain. Considering we didn't round up every person of middle eastern ethnicity on the East Coast, I'd say we have improved a bit. I don't place blame or credit on any administration for the difference in reactions, I just think we've evolved as a nation.
Whenever there is a significant shock to a nation, the administration is going to get paranoid, imagine the threat to be greater than it really is, and compensate by trying to grab more power. This is not a good thing, but it is inevitable. Also, you are going to have organizations that recognize this, but they also overestimate the situation and make exaggerated claims.
Both of these resolve when cooler heads prevail. We're seeing that start to happen.
Nick- I'll grant you that now is better than then. Doesn't that go without saying... But, one could argue that Jim Crow was better than slavery, and did, in fact. Overall, I just think it was a case of co-option and compromise. But that doesn't mean that it's as good as it could be. We have a tendency to fix the effects, not the causes. I'm just wondering if there can ever be anything but compromise under the system as it is, when it has such a pervasive reach into our everyday lives, now more than ever. We have one of the most effective tools for organizing than ever before, true... but they have to most effective surveillance tools ever devised as well. We are at a tipping point, according to Moglen, or we were recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NorfgQlEJv8
The question is whether we've gone past that point and it's too late.
As for idealism, I do have some. I do believe that people can do great and wonderful things, but we can do some shit things too. Human nature channeled through group think can be downright scary.
Mindy
Takuan- I'm not sure who you're asking, but I think no. Not in any real way. Anyone else?
Mindy
I was asking any person eligible to vote.
Next question: If your vote is no longer a vote, what do you do now?
Well, the logical next step here, if things are as bad as the commenters here seem to be saying, is armed conflict and resistance. When can we expect you guys to begin your guerrilla war?
Frankly (and maybe I'm just getting cranky here because I'm tired--if so, please excuse me) but there is a point where commiserating about the state of things turns self-indulgent. Let's not go there.
heh!
change "western"to "middle eastern"
“The days of looking the other way while despotic regimes trample human rights, rob their nations' wealth, and then excuse their failings by feeding their people a steady diet of anti-Western hatred are over.”
Dick Cheney quote
wooo-woooo! the spirits are about to speak! EEEEEEEE! (adjusts turban): Ma Feller Boingerinos! Ah has been holdin outs on ya, I can furtell da futchur!
"Quarter Of Americans Now Think Iran is The Biggest Enemy
Consistent neocon propaganda campaign paying off...
by Steve Watson
Global Research, April 2, 2008
A quarter of Americans believe that Iran now poses the biggest threat to the United States, confirming that a sustained neocon propaganda campaign to demonize Iran and its leaders for their own strategic benefit is having a significant impact.
According to a new poll by Gallup, Iran is top of the enemy list, with 25 percent, followed by Iraq at 22 percent, then China with 14 percent, and North Korea with 9 percent.
Republicans are more than twice as likely as Democrats to see Iran as the top U.S. enemy, while Democrats are likelier to name Iraq. Older people and those who say they closely follow world news are less likely to cite Iraq than the younger and less informed, reported the AP.
It was September last year when the New Yorker magazine reported that Barnett Rubin, a highly respected Afghanistan expert at New York University, asserted that Dick Cheney ordered top Neo-Con media outlets, including Fox News and the Wall Street Journal, to unleash a PR blitz to sell conflict with Iran.
The fruits of that propaganda campaign are now clear to see."
Thets all Boingers, carry onz a-dying!
Dear Nick D.:
Pas du tout monsieur! pas du tout. There is a continuous spectrum of actions regarding your social engagement and direct personal participation in the political process. I suspect there is a host of actions between not using a disenfranchised ballet and taking up arms against the thieves and bullies that have hijacked your nation. Exercise your mind sir, "What do you do next?"
Well gosh, at least my country's still good fer sumptin! makin' cutsie spellin' Canadians feel morally superior!
-- @ #68 watch your pronouns sir. I'm not torturing anybody. I hope you realize that being born on the other side of an imaginary line does not free you from all responsibility. Do you ever buy American products? do you not enjoy a cozy little place in this fine World Order of ours? As someone pointed out, Canadian troops are also currently in the Middle East.
Go make a youtube video for Obama or something.
WeightedCompanionCube:
I'm afraid that I do agree with the EFF's assumptions.
Remember: it's not that the Bush administration is pushing for the right or ability to surveille our communications--it IS surveilling our communications. Every telephone call is automatically routed to government servers. This is not something that we're afraid will happened, it HAS happened. And it has received legal legitimacy from the US Congress, so that now it's the law of the land.
Don't take my word for it--look it up. But then you probably know this already. So I'm not understanding why pointing this out and objecting to it is "paranoid."
As for "cooler heads will prevail": it's been 8 years since 9/11 and frankly, I don't see the reversal of the trend you're referring to. When exactly can we expect these cooler heads to get busy. In time for the next millenium?
Mindy:
"I'm just wondering if there can ever be anything but compromise under the system as it is"
Compromise gets a bad rap sometimes. Nothing gets done in a democracy without compromise. Only totalitarian regimes can change things by fiat. Change doesn't always happen overnight, and mostly it probably shouldn't. Deliberate, thoughtful change usually gets better results.
But no, I don't think we have got to the point of no return, and thus I'm hopeful.
hey there #87! izzat "Algernon" from "Flowers"? and the "Birdsong" somehow evokes a story with a Dr. Chanson D'osieaux... can't place it but he was a psychologist that made people "happy".....
"What do you do next?" (Takuan)
That's the question of the day, isn't it?
I guess the main thing I'd like to contribute to that discussion is the idea that political action takes many forms, including the social and economic.
An example of economic action: when Verizon pesters me to use their Fios system, I tell them that I will when they stop collaborating with the government in their surveillance activities. I use their pre-paid envelope to do this, so it's on their dime.
When I walk into a BJ's and they have a big sign bragging about how they drug test their employees, I turn in my membership card, and tell their manager exactly why.
When my employer asks me to sign a form giving them direct access in perpetuity to my DMV records, I refuse to do so.
These are all things I've done. In themselves, they're little actions. Done en masse by significant numbers of people like yourselves, they would get results, mark my words.
SPREAD THE WORD!
CraigGNoble, there's far more things going on than you seem know about... there's water flowing underground in these here United States of America, but you're not going to find it on Canadian television either.
absimiliard said:
You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
ATTN: To those who don't know what's being inferred about up there....
This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes... ((It's about fucking time Boing Boing had a link to this thing anyway, damn))
► Red Pill
► Blue Pill
If you choose the red pill, use VLC to watch it, download here
Well, you are right, I should justify the "i hate cops" simple, snarky post.
Pre-coffee this morning.
But cops appear to be the best metaphor for what is happening throughout our country.
10 years ago, you could approach a police officer, who was dressed in a uniform, and ask for directions.
today, most ( I said 'most' I am sure someone in Beaver Dam, Wisconsin will point me to the exception) officers are dressed like soldiers, ready for the next SWAT takedown.
And if you approach to ask a question, you ARE instantly, a suspect.
That's the part I don't like. Suspect. Everyone is now a criminal till proven otherwise. Heck, even the different administration agencies fight over who is the better power.
SCREW THIS.
It is not the USA I grew up in, it is not the USA our founding fathers built, and it is not the USA I want for my son.
Ya know what I want?
I want the kitchen of the future, and my personal jetpack.
I want us to stop spending TRILLIONS of dollars on a stupid war, and get back to spending it on education and infrastructure improvement.
I want to be able to travel without the TSA roto-rootering my rectum looking for fake explosive liquids.
I want to not have to say "Naww, I'm not from the US, I'm from TEXAS!" whenever I am overseas to deflect a barrage of hateful anger to the current president.
(as a sideline, I want people to understand GWB is NOT a Texan, he was not born IN Texas, he went to Yale, and he smirks. NOT TEXAN)
but I sum it all up thinking about the metaphor, of the cop dressed like a soldier, patrolling the streets roughing up skateboarders and holding "REAL ULTIMATE POWER"
Where is our freedom?
What happened to the Great Society?
Why is dinner bad for us?
Nick- I'm not disagreeing with that, but compromise can go both ways. It can be a way of undercutting discontent, and breaking apart movements. You zero in on specifics, give a little, and what do you know- some of us bow out because we got our little piece of the pie... compromise can be good, as it can force change, but, it can be bad, because it stops people looking at the root of the problem...
I'm not sure about the tipping point. Sometimes, I think we have, sometimes, I don't think we have. It's hard to tell, and that is up to historians to sort out later, I suppose.
As for your personal actions in #90- that's great. I wish more people would take principled stances, but most people don't. Most people compromise on those basic ideas, because it's common sense that we do those things (you employer has the right to tell you whatever they want, and most people are afraid of getting fired, so they don't bother to say no, even if they know they are right). You should be proud. And encourage others, too.
Don't believe them for a moment
For a second, do not believe, my friend
When you are down, them are not coming
With a helping hand
Of course there is no us and them
But them they do not think the same
It's them who do not think
They never step on spiritual path
They paint their faces so differently from ours
And if you listen closely
That war it never stops
Be them new Romans
Don't envy them my friend
Be their lives longer
Their longer lives are spent
Without a love or faithful friend
All those things they have to rent
But we who see our destiny
In sound of this same old punk song
Let rest originality for sake of passing it around
Illuminating realization number one:
You are the only light there is
For yourself my friend
There'll be no saviors any soon coming down
And anyway illuminations
Never come from the crowned
Illuminating realization number one:
You are the only light there is
For yourself my friend
Mindy
Cowicide,
I took that red pill for five years. If it didn't work in the 60s and 70s, it sure as hell ain't gonna work now.
Weather underground is laaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. When will someone make a documentary about Up Against the Wall Motherfuckers? Some of them are still kickin around, I think.
@Takuan
Is it true that the majority of Americans have really been made to believe that Iran is our biggest threat? It just seems like such a stretch for people to jump on, propaganda or no.
I think one of the core problems is the illusion people have that they have to compromise, that is, giving up their privacy will actually provide them with greater security.
Bruce Schneier has written about this:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/01/security_vs_pri.html
"If there's a debate that sums up post-9/11 politics, it's security versus privacy. Which is more important? How much privacy are you willing to give up for security? Can we even afford privacy in this age of insecurity? Security versus privacy: It's the battle of the century, or at least its first decade.
...
Security and privacy are not opposite ends of a seesaw; you don't have to accept less of one to get more of the other. Think of a door lock, a burglar alarm and a tall fence. Think of guns, anti-counterfeiting measures on currency and that dumb liquid ban at airports. Security affects privacy only when it's based on identity, and there are limitations to that sort of approach."
(etc)
I am of the mindset that the lack of information and education of the majority is what needs to be solved-
But if the majority of the public would vote and make decisions without ignorance, would that make a difference?
What next, references to the White Panthers and the MC5?
Oh man, reading/comment latency for the grand ultimate loss.
@Nick D #90,
I completely agree with this
Scott Free,
You're in over your depth on this one. Up Against the Wall Motherfuckers committed a few acts of civil disobedience. The WUO and it's above-ground organizations and splinters (SDS, Prairie Fire Organizing Committee and May 19th Communist Organiztaion) were tied to most of the national liberation movements around the globe and were considered the legitimate revolutionary groups in the US.
Antinous:
Uh, that's pretty much the entire point of the documentary that I posted, Antinous... but, the WU didn't "go away" as you say; it's evolved. Keep swallowing that pill, I don't think it's taken complete effect yet.
the WU didn't "go away" as you say
I didn't say that. I know what they've evolved to. And unless you're not telling me something, my credentials on this subject trump yours and probably those of the other commenters here.
Dear Akasha:
If an one American bomb falls on Iran, that will be all both sides need.
I ask you to look at Cheney, the others.
LOOK at them.
Do you think they will hesitate?
This is my most solemn and serious warning of danger.
America and the world CANNOT AFFORD a war with Iran.
#73 trr
"Noen - citation please?"
David Addington on the Separation of Powers:
Also good:
David Addington on the FISA Court:
RE: #102 POSTED BY ANTINOUS:
Spin it all you want, but you definitely implied they "went away" when you said, " ... it didn't work in the 60s and 70s, it sure as hell ain't gonna work now. .... "
I assume what you meant was that violent revolution isn't going to work. But, if you bothered to watch the documentary I posted, you would've seen that nearly all members of the WU renounce those tactics for a multitude of good reasons, but some continue the struggle to this day in more evolved ways (That, for one, make it far more difficult for the FBI, etc. to come fuck with you, divide & conquer, etc.). There are tactics far more subversive and effective than bombs.
But, you knew that already, didn't you? After all, you gots teh credentials.
Jesus Christ, listen to yourself there.... you might need to see a life coach yourself there partner and learn a bit more on the topics of humility and blind assumption.
So you're pretty convinced you know more about the WU than everyone else on Boing Boing? Congrats. Did you run through the AT&T wiretap data on everyones "credentials" here? LOL
I'm not going to play this inane pissing match with you on who knows more about WU or whatever trite shit you're trying to pull here.
I'll just await your authoritative book on the matter instead.
BTW, if you're bitter because no one has patted you on the back for "swallowing the red pill" (as you say) for 5 years or whatever, get over yourself. Effective activism is often incredibly thankless at its best and results in death/torture at its worst... if you are doing it for attention or to get laid... you're doing it wrong.
Sincerely,
Cowicide
Extreme Moderate
(Yes, I called myself that well before the HBO John Adams mini-series, you can look it up) LOL
antinous,
if you're implying what I think you seem to imply, /awesome/. Probably a few good stories there, eh?
But as neither group is particularly remembered as accomplishing an awful lot--the WU chiefly remembered for blowing themselves up and arrested for their trouble--Up Against the Wall is way more interesting, theoretically. Also, they had Marcuse s son in their lot.
Who really interest me, for their theory but also for their epic fail, is the Autonomia in north Italy, early seventies. Probably even more influential then the situs and far cooler. Semiotexte did an anthology of them I really want to get my hands on.
Cowicide,
You're a gas bag. I have first-hand experience. You saw a documentary.
"Let us be lovers we'll marry our fortunes together"
"I've got some real estate here in my bag"
So we bought a pack of cigarettes and Mrs. Wagner pies
And we walked off to look for America
"Kathy," I said as we boarded a Greyhound in Pittsburgh
"Michigan seems like a dream to me now"
It took me four days to hitchhike from Saginaw
I've gone to look for America
Laughing on the bus
Playing games with the faces
She said the man in the gabardine suit was a spy
I said "Be careful his bowtie is really a camera"
"Toss me a cigarette, I think there's one in my raincoat"
"We smoked the last one an hour ago"
So I looked at the scenery, she read her magazine
And the moon rose over an open field
"Kathy, I'm lost," I said, though I knew she was sleeping
I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
They've all gone to look for America
All gone to look for America
All gone to look for America
neither group is particularly remembered as accomplishing an awful lot
That would be a pretty accurate summation. Unless you consider pissing off every human being with whom you come in contact an accomplishment. I'm not sure what would be my 'finest hour'. How about standing at UC Berkeley screaming through a megaphone at three thousand students that the US hostages in Iran were agents of imperialism and deserved to die?
Antinous , April 2, 2008 6:03 PM
Well, John. Maybe you should go turn yourself in finally? LOL
At my uni, there was a something called a Freshers fair, with all the clubs and societies and whatever in little stalls. I was physically picked up and carried out by a security guard for denouncing university investment in a weapons manufacturer throuh a megaphone. good times.
I was at a demo the other day.
We waved signs.The cops watched. The passing cars honked support. The Chinese coerced agent (singular) very angry/nervously irritated one demonstrator. We broke up. Some Chinese kid in a Jeep tried to follow me home. Pre-tty standard really.
Beijing is running scared. All because a handful of foreigners dare to tweak their nose in broad daylight.
Do not underestimate your power.
If you assume you have none, you don't.
Thanks Cowicide for trying to threaten me by demonstrating that you have access to my real name. I've been visited by the Secret Service. They already know me.
Antinous , April 2, 2008 6:21 PM
Dude, you were 12 years old in 1970... get real. The SS could give two shits about you, trust me. Moove on... Moove on...
It appears that John Yoo subscribes to the Lady Macbeth theory of government.
"what need we fear who knows it when none can call our power to account?"
hmmmm, seems familiar...
—Directive by Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel, May 1941
John Yoo Says President Bush Can Legally Torture Children
The vile uncivilized savages our glorious soldiers are bringing freedom and democracy to.
What we do to them.
From Time Magazine 6/23/2006, via "Oath Betrayed" by Dr. Stephen Miles:
"Of the 136 documented deaths of prisoners in detention, Miles found, medical death certificates were often not issued until months or even years after the actual deaths. One prisoner’s corpse at Camp Cropper was kept for two weeks before his family or criminal investigators were notified. The body was then left at a local hospital with a certificate attributing death to “sudden brainstem compression.” The hospital’s own autopsy found that the man had died of a massive blow to the head. Another certificate claimed a 63-year-old prisoner had died of “cardiovascular disease and a buildup of fluid around his heart.” According to Miles, no mention was made that the old man had been stripped naked, doused in cold water and kept outside in 40? cold for three days before cardiac arrest.
Other doctors just looked the other way, their military duty overruling the Hippocratic Oath. One at Abu Ghraib intervened to ask guards to stop beating one prisoner’s wounded leg and quit hanging him from an injured shoulder. He saw it happen three times. He never reported it. In Mosul, according to Miles, one medic witnessed guards beating a prisoner and burning him by dragging him over hot stones. The prisoner was taken to the hospital, treated and then returned by doctors to his torturers. An investigation into the incident was closed because the medic didn’t sign the medical record and so he couldn’t be identified."
John Yoo's war crimes
(1) The fact that John Yoo is a Professor of Law at Berkeley and is treated as a respectable, serious expert by our media institutions, reflects the complete destruction over the last eight years of whatever moral authority the United States possessed.
(2) While Yoo's specific Torture Memos were ultimately rescinded by subsequent DOJ officials -- primarily Jack Goldsmith -- the underlying theories of omnipotent executive power remain largely in place. The administration continues to embrace precisely these same theories to assert that it has the power to violate a whole array of laws
(3) This incident provides yet more proof of how rancid and corrupt is the premise that as long as political appointees at the DOJ approve of certain conduct, then that conduct must be shielded from criminal prosecution. [...] That's the central argument behind both telecom amnesty and protecting Bush officials from their surveillance felonies (it's unfair to hold them accountable for their illegal spying behavior because the DOJ said they could do it).
(4) Since the Nuremberg Trials, "war criminals" include not only those who directly apply the criminal violence and other forms of brutality, but also government officials who authorized it and military officials who oversaw it.
Yale Law Professor Jack Balkin
"Orin [Kerr] wants to know whether John [Yoo]'s theories are consistent with my views of the living constitution. If he wants to know as a substantive matter whether John's theories of Presidential dictatorship are consistent with the Constitution's text and underlying principles, they are not."
Harper's Scott Horto
"These memoranda have been crafted not as an after-the-fact defense to criminal charges, but rather as a roadmap to committing crimes and getting away with it. They are the sort of handiwork we associate with the consigliere, or mob lawyer. But these consiglieri are government attorneys who have sworn an oath, which they are violating, to uphold the law."
John Yoo has committed war crimes.
"Yoo wasn't acting as a lawyer in order legally to analyze questions surrounding interrogation powers. He was acting with the intent to enable illegal torture and used the law as his instrument to authorize criminality."
Every breath that John Yoo takes as a free man is an affront to the dignity of all humanity.
Cow; quit being a jerk.
Respect to Nick D, #90 above.
It's going to take some more concerted and organized grass-roots action. Still, if another terrorist incident happens with the Republicans in power it'll be National Socialism for sure.
I don't see Hillary being much better, and am uncertain Obama can overcome the prevailing mentality in Washington and the world generally.
takuan, i couldn't agree more on the fact that morally, spiritually or financially we cannot afford the wars we're in, let alone the one we have begun ( bushco has already frozen iranian assets, sent black-op sorties, and mobilized the rest of the u.s. fleet to the persian gulf) with iran. the plan is now that most of the opposition has been removed, the u.s. can start mobilizing ground forces as soon as the rest of the navy arrives. having the propaganda working with 25% (holy shit, that many?) of the populace actually thinking we're in any way threatened by iran is just icing. they will invade, and lie about it as they always do. just as they planned it long ago. from day one i have protested this admin. from the pooch-screwed election of 2000, the stonewalling of the 9-11 commission, the war with iraq, iran, and the theft of the last election. millions of us protesting; thousands of us arrested! this country was founded on dissent, but i've been called about every name in the book, and had my patriotism questioned at every goddamn turn! the really sad thing is, no matter how blatantly their lies are exposed, again and again, i still know MANY people who still stand behind these assholes and DEFEND THEIR ACTIONS! they also believe fox news is telling them the truth. it completely blows my mind, as these are otherwise intelligent human beings. again, I AM FRUSTRATED. THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'VE GIVEN UP HOPE. I AM WAITING FOR A GOOD IDEA. ANYONE? seriously. anyone?
I find a good sign that those six cruise missiles with nuclear warheads that were intended for backdoor shipment to Israel never got out of the USA. Pity about the collateral damage.
It does show there were high ranking people in the military that said no to Cheney's scheming.
#116 posted by Takuan , April 2, 2008 6:56 PM
You mean, calling out BS on someone being rude, arrogant as hell, etc. to me? Sure, I'm done.
BTW, calling me names isn't helping. It only puts you beneath me at this point. Try to have a good night.
Tak-nii,
I thought that we had also established whether you are a top or a bottom.
neither. I am the container. Call me Victor. The container.
Cowie, I said "being" as in "acting like". Sorry if that was not clear. We are in the arena according to our mutually agreed rules. Live, die, prosper or pine accordingly to own merit. The moment anyone steps outside the rules, we are all threatened.
To seek information about another not freely given with intent to USE that information is the act of an assassin - not an associate.
If you must "win", win legitimately and respectably.
We in America have given up. The rest of the world can insult us for it, but we're really just tired of the Bush administration and their gutting of fundamental rights, and a Democratic congress that has done nothing for the last eight years. We're sitting here doing nothing, just biding our time until the election gets rid of these criminals.
Now, if McCain were to somehow win the election, I think then you'll see blood in the streets.
so what if they start another war before they are tossed out?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/0,,337484,00.html
Who says this has anything to do with Bush? As far as I can tell, he is just a useful idiot. You all might want to look into the domestic FEMA camps that have been built by the good folks at Haliburton, or maybe the executive control of the National Guard. While we might find some comfort in the fact that our own boyz & girlz in the US military would be reluctant to shoot at their fellow countrymen (they are specifically queried on this as part of a slew of evaluations) you should know that they now have a bunch of non-lethal compliance devices like the microwave heat dispersal beam at their disposal to ease their strained consciouses. Kind of like the blank shell for the lucky soldier on the firing squad. Lastly, there have been foreign troops conducting citizen round-up drills on US soil for the last 3 administrations, so maybe we should all take time to learn a foreign language.
y'know tae-kwan, that sounds like just the kinda thing dick cheney would say...
you mean Bizarro Cheney in Opposite Universe?
oh these
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/010206detentioncamps.htm
i coulda sworn we was livn in Bizarro Cheney's Opposite Universe...(play appropriate theramin music here)! damnit, u made me capitalise...great band name tho.
Demidan @ 21 whos said "...So when the end of his term is neigh and he formally declares martial law and suspends the election, we can rise up and slay his illegal government!"
If the head puppet doesn't "allow" some small town into being irradiated or sprayed with bio-weapons from people within the US first, forcing his hand at declaring martial law, my bet is on the elections being rigged through Diebold. It won't make a difference how obvious this is.
What are you going to do about it? As people have been saying, what can you do?
I'm glad that I still won't be in that country come November. When the roundups of the anti-government protestors occurs.
Maybe it's today's anniversary, maybe it's the weather, maybe it's the lack of practical ideas from this thread on the topic (with the possible exception of Takuan, who is almost always on the ball)... but I'm feeling despondent over this a bit. I want to be hopefully, as Nick D. suggested I am, because hope means that you feel that action can change things. So, what can be done. No one seems to be answering that question, not really. They hint, perhaps, especially those from other places than the states, but, no one is saying I think the solution is this... shouldn't that tell us something, namely that easy answers just aren't at hand?
#126- I agree, it has little to do with Bush and his administration and more to do with the system.
#123- Why would McCain, over Obama or Clinton, mean blood in the streets? I'm just curious to understand what you mean.
Mindy
This just confirms that we have had an idiot in the office for 7 1/2 years. Only a couple of more months left.
Meh, feeling depressed over something like this is a bit self indulgent in my opinion. While changes for the worse tend to happen quite quickly, changes for the better take years, and last longer as well. So I would just strap yourself in and worry about yourself for the next twenty years or so. It'll be a fun ride.
'We do not anticipate the world with our dogmas, but instead attempt to discover the new world throuh the critique of the old. ...If we have no business with the construction of the future or with organising it for all time there can still be no doubt about the task confronting us at present: the /ruthless criticism of the existing order/, ruthless in that it will shrink neither from its own discoveries nor from conflict with the powers that be.'
--Marx
and
Because a man is human
Means he likes to eat and talk a lot
But words wont take the place of meat
Or fill an empty pot.
So step etc
And just because a man is human
Doesn't mean he likes a kick in the face,
A man wants no man under him
and above no master class.
--Brecht
Get involved in the mainstream political system (Nader or Paul don't count -- literally).
They're betting that you will be cynical and frustrated and apathetic. And/or that you'll all split up your power into a half dozen fringe candidates and varieties of purist political ideologies -- so pure that you can't even consider working with the rest of the nation, since that might mean compromise. They're betting that the majority, us, will split up into ineffectual and bickering twits. Which is how Bush got into office twice.
Don't take to the streets. Don't build big puppets. Don't throw fake blood on anybody.
There are two parties that get presidents made. Find the one closest to your views, go to your local party HQ, get involved, and push from the inside with a focus on the candidate who also seems to hold positions closest to yours.
Baby steps: If you sit there just bitching, you're not going to take them. And those in power will keep doing whatever the hell they want with the Constitution.
Time to grow up, grow a pair, back away from the blog, and earn your freedom.
#134- Meh... perhaps you're right on that count, on being self-indulgent, I mean. It still sucks, though. And besides, it isn't just about me, but about the future as well. Who's to say that the good changes will come. After all, this John Yoo unitary executive nonsense is not just Bush administration, but there has been a concerted effort since Carter to build back up the power of the executive. This administration just had a better opportunity than the rest of them. Good quotes. Thanks!
And #133- It's not just the Bushies, I think. It's again, the system.
Mindy
#135- Bat, I guess this gets back to the "inside" vs "outside" debate that has long gone on in outsider political/cultural communities, right? Whether you can be part of the system and change the system from within, or if you have to be outside the system to not get subsumed by it. If you look at the history of revolutions, of uprisings, or political or cultural discontent (or whatever you want to call it), that is I think one of the most common themes (the film Paradise now is a good example of an explicit expression of this debate within the Palestinian community).
As for Nader- he's not that radical, really. He gets marginalized because he makes a valid point in his campaigns about corporate power and the corruption of both parties. The Dems were all on board when he was on the sidelines, going after the right, but once he started making noise about their own party.... He's a threat because he makes people understand a different point of view that challenges the status quo. That should tell us something, I think. If someone gets marginalized, not on their views (there racist, sexist, reactionary, whatever), but because of something like "he's a spoiler" or "the war is his fault because he took votes away from Al Gore", well, that should tell us something about the message that the person has. Honestly, I'm still not sure what side of that debate (in the system vs out of the system) I'm on. I see utility in both. Maybe we can do both at the same time? Sure, we need good people pushing thoughts that are considered a bit outside the mainstream, that challenge hegemonic "common sense", as it were. But, having people of good conscious on the inside is needed too.
I think I want a new way to put all this together, really.
Mindy
Akasha @98 who said "I am of the mindset that the lack of information and education of the majority is what needs to be solved-
But if the majority of the public would vote and make decisions without ignorance, would that make a difference?"
You are an optimist of the sort who doesn't like to pay much heed to either the bell curve or recent finds in genetics and neurobiology. Humans have both classes and castes - biologically, as well as through education and environment. The worker bees, the grunts, are needed by any society to die in huge numbers against the invading grunts. It's been that way since we've been social chipmunks.
The greater bulk of any human society will be grunts, and incapable of an educated vote.
Only transhumans could be different.
What is to be done?
Well, lots of people are already acting and they could use your help. DailyKos, Open Left, Move On, The Net Roots campaign, all have had an effect. Just ask Joe Lieberman:
This from a man who was once a respected Democrat and the nominee for VP. He is now out of the party and reviled by all but the DLC diehards. I'd call that real progress.
Of course, progress is slow and incremental but people tend to want what they want NOW. Sorry, doesn't happen. The conservative extremists have been working for what they want for 30 years. What you are seeing now is the result of decades of hard work on their part. Expect it to take just as long for those who wish for a different future.
I suppose that I should remind people that no one knows what the future will bring. No one. You might think you do, you might think "Bush is gonna declare martial law!" or that "It's over, we can never win, boo hooooooo!!!! But you don't know.
So quite yer cryin' and either get to work or get out of the way.
Mintphresh @118 who said "they also believe fox news is telling them the truth. it completely blows my mind, as these are otherwise intelligent human beings. again, "
You may be interested to read the writings of social scientist Bob Altemeyer about authoritarian personalities. A significant percentage of people refuse to think, to the degree that they basically simply can not think. The cognitive dissonance is too great a strain.
Our liberal upbringing makes this very difficult for us to accept. We don't want to swallow the fact that other people are not like us, will not be like us, and can not be like us.
At a fundamental and deeply disturbing level, human beings are divided into classes.
@138
I didn't realize there was any sort of optimism in that statement. I honestly don't think it's a problem that can be solved(easily or at all). I was implying the vote was hacked, and that solving the ignorance of the masses wouldn't fix anything either.
To restate my view, I think it is mostly the artisan and business classes that are capable of some measure of introspection and self interested free will. If humans were homogenously capable, we would resist fascism with a spritely step.
It is for this reason that I agree that when the Diebold count is found to be false, the warrior class will largely go along with whatever they learned when they were 5, and Believe, and Believe hard and tight and fight it right.
This may sound bigoted and racist and classist to educated ears, but these opinions are born not from ignorance but reading recent psychological and gentic research, as well as having lived more than two or three decades.
It is the grunts among us, the necessary police grunts and military grunts, the necessary religious zealouts, the followers of orders, the willing to die soldier ants and munitions factory bees, that must be won over from the Dark side if the Diebold count is to be successfully contested.
Remember the 60s? The grunts were won by Rock and Roll idols. They followed hippie heroes.
We need hippie heros, or the updated version.
Ah - I think I have a glimmer of the beginnings of a viable powerful social movement. It has something to do with women being promiscuous. Women can help to win over the hearts and minds of the calicified incalcitrant, win them, and make them instransigent into politico-transients. Be very promiscuous, as if the future of the country depended on it.
WHAT is "The United States of America?" Is it just a large section of North America, or a population of a few hundred million, or maybe only one political section of "true Americans"?
I would postulate that the United States IS the US Constitution. In theory, if all of North America were destroyed, or the Earth were made uninhabitable, we could go to the Moon or Mars or Rigel-7 and recreate the USA from the Constitution.
The USA is not a flag or a picture of the Statue of Liberty or bald Eagle, anymore than you can eat the word "sandwich" and satisfy your hunger-- these things are just symbols. BUT the Constitution IS the embodiment of the USA, nullify the Constitution and you have nullified the USA.
Are we a "nation of laws" or not? The President is not above the law, and he/she cannot decide to follow only those laws he/she wants to follow, anymore than you or I can do that. If the President decides to break a law for some issue of national security, he must be damn sure of himself, and willing to face the consequences of breaking that law. Think of it like pleading "self defense" in a murder trial-- sure, the President can break the law, and a court will decide afterward if it was justified, NOT the perpetrator.
" he must be damn sure of himself, and willing to face the consequences of breaking that law"
There comes a point when the leader is the law, and must maintain leadership in order not to be judged. It seems that some politicians embrace becoming the law, and are certain of their willingness to face any consequences.
It isn't a matter of judging dictators after the fact and saying I told you so with a waggly finger over their corpse. It's a matter of who will be the grunts who sacrifice for the possibility of a dictatorless future.
ill,
that's why people write these memos: to make damn sure. As the Yoo memo yesterday outlined, the Supreme Court nearly always sides with the executive branch on issues of national security. Additionally, law in theory is different from law in practice. A lay reading of the US constitution would not particularly yield an accurate assessment of us law, as it is the supreme courts interpretation, not yours, which is, in actual fact, law.
for instance, it is taken for granted that the constitution allows free speech as per the first amendment: Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press. however until the sixties, this was interpreted to mean that speech could not be prevented, but /could/ be punished. So during WWI people were arrested just for advocating pacifist views etc.
As I mentioned above, a study of the decisions of Roberts and Scalia, for instance, in the Supreme Court is actually frightening, because in my opinion, and more importantly the opinion of legal scholars like Dworkin, they do not make an extensive assessment of precedent, nor, when they rule against precedent, do they set a coherent new precedent. In other words, their opinions tend to sound similar to 'because I said so', which would suggest a lack of integrity in the law. Any legal scholar will tell you that equal application of law is the minimum requirement for its integrity, however in the US at the present day there is a tendency to apply law rather selectively. You're back to the wild wild west or Capone's Chicago. yippee-ki-yay.
#118... One good idea is to quit shopping as a narcotic. Train yourself to be a minimalist with a very small energy footprint. When the money dries up so does war. The funny money Bush and Co. are floating will gag them. Not enough calories for life support.
How exciting, this is my very first comment.
Firstly, Antinous @28. I know your were joking, but as a Canadian there is nothing funny to me about the annexation of Canada by the US. Canada now exports 65+ per cent of its energy supply to the U.S., and imports almost 60 per cent of the oil it consumes.
Your southern states are drying up, what are those who live there going to do in 10, 20 or 30 years? Where will their water come from? Perhaps from Canada? Under the SPP and the proposed North American Union, the process of annexing Canada is already underway. Its a terrifying prospect.
With regard to the issue of you good people in the US having an effect on how the country moves forward. Look at the current conflicts between States and the Federal Government. The Federal Government only has power because the 50 states give it that power.
New Hampshire has a long smoldering secessionist movement.
http://www.republicofnh.org/
Secession is the key I believe. Perhaps groups of states forming trading blocks, ie. on the west coast as Cascadia. Making power structures local would would really help to keep power in check. This is something that can be lobbied for on a local/state level.
To the barricades, the wonders of secession await you all!!
Thank you, this concludes my first comment.
don't you worry Tynen. Clinton is on record saying she'll tear up NAFTA. When that happens,China will out bid America for virtually every resource and Canada will make even more money.
Canada now exports 65+ per cent of its energy supply to the U.S., and imports almost 60 per cent of the oil it consumes.
We have huge wind farms around Palm Springs, but get none of the energy from them, and we have some of the highest electric rates in the world. California grows much of the world's produce, but the best of it goes elsewhere. The rich don't get rich by producing things, they get rich by moving them around.
The President is not above the law
US Presidents are pardoned. Even if the next President is a Democrat, Bush would likely be pardoned if he were charged with something. The Mandate of Heaven/Divine Right of Kings mindset regarding the presidency trumps other considerations.
They hanged Saddam. Why not Bush? The crimes are the same.
Saddam Hussein met his end with panache. I'm pretty sure that Bush would shit his pants at the gallows. History will probably revile Bush as a monster and view Saddam as a great hero and martyr. And by history, I mean most everybody, pretty soon.
they're both dinks, but I guess you're right