Transgender man is pregnant
Thomas Beattie lives in Oregon and is married to a woman named Nancy. He's pregnant.
Link (Via YesButNoButYes)To our neighbors, my wife, Nancy, and I don’t appear in the least unusual. To those in the quiet Oregon community where we live, we are viewed just as we are -- a happy couple deeply in love. Our desire to work hard, buy our first home, and start a family was nothing out of the ordinary. That is, until we decided that I would carry our child.
I am transgender, legally male, and legally married to Nancy. Unlike those in same-sex marriages, domestic partnerships, or civil unions, Nancy and I are afforded the more than 1,100 federal rights of marriage. Sterilization is not a requirement for sex reassignment, so I decided to have chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy but kept my reproductive rights. Wanting to have a biological child is neither a male nor female desire, but a human desire.
How fascinating. How sf is this? And it makes me very uncomfortable, but in a way that indicates I have a bit of dogma to hunt down and kill.
hoo-boy! Just one has to blow it for everybody...now all men everywhere have to learn how to work the washing machine.
He's not the first FtM transperson who's been pregnant. I've met one. He ended up being a pretty good parent too.
I guess it's a sign of how out of sync with most people I am that I'm really not even thinking this is interesting news.
I knew a guy who found a surrogate to impregnate, had a sex change during the pregnancy, then became his biological child's mother. This was about twenty years ago. I bet that there's more of this sort of thing going on than people suspect.
you knew Mrs. Cartman?
Maybe I'm being too literal, or socially inconsiderate, or whatever, but that person is female, not "transgender".
It strikes me as odd that she wants to have a "biological child," and that particular definition is important to her, but when it comes to her sex she uses the legal definition even though she's quite clearly biologically female.
...and when will NOT wanting a child be considered normal ?
Transgender rights aside, this seems very questionable from a biological point of view. Yes the baby seems to be fine, but were there increased risks of birth defects? And although his menstrual cycle returned, how certain can we be that everything would be normal in terms of pregnancy? I doubt that there's much research regarding this particular situation and that's probably a big reason why they had so much trouble finding doctors willing to help them. Feels to me like the child is exposed to unreasonable risk, especially when adoption is an option.
So, do you tell the kid, "I'm your birth mother but your father"? That might be a bit odd. But I guess we'll just have to get used to it. I expect a future where people can selectively pick their gender, morphing into whatever it is their nano-enabled minds and bodies will allow.
This is awesome.
I promise she was never in any German scheisse videos.
And it begins...
"I guess it's a sign of how out of sync with most people I am that I'm really not even thinking this is interesting news."
ditto.This kind of item is useful as educational I suppose, but it really ought to be considered passe.
Pity the planet is still so backward.
Now, formal legal recognition of full, basic human rights for this person - and child - now that IS worth posting.
More I think about it, sex really ought to be dropped from all legal constructions. We are ALL human. We all have the SAME rights. Matters of DNA and social roles are secondary to our intrinsic value.
and it ends, a trivial, humourous sidebar is just that.
While "biologically female" may be technically correct, "genetically female" would be more apt.
Now, less P.C. - I wonder if (s)he has dangly parts?
How...
ummm...
Wha...
From a technical viewpoint, I thought if you changed gender from female to male that you kinda got the whole package, penis and testicles. Did this guy not get that? If not, how is he a man? Flat chest + testosterone pills = male?
And if he has a penis and testicles, then that begs the question how was he inseminated? And how the baby will be born? I assume caesarian, but is the birth canal still there?
We need diagrams and illustrations here, people! Not to be crass or a perv or anything. I draw charts and diagrams all the time to figure out how to code something, I just think better that way. And could use a bit of a hand here to figure this out.
This story reminds me of a great David Byrne song:
Now I'm You're Mom. From the "Uh-Oh" album.
Last week NPR's "Fresh Air" had an interview with a veterinarian who had written a memoir. One of his patients was a dog who had to be both spayed and neutered. Don't know how functional s/he was before the surgery...
"From a technical viewpoint, I thought if you changed gender from female to male that you kinda got the whole package, penis and testicles. Did this guy not get that? If not, how is he a man? Flat chest + testosterone pills = male?"
Apparently, most transmen (correct me if that's not the proper term) only get the top done, since phalloplasties (having penis made) doesn't work that well. They don't look very good, and don't have much sensation. So most transmen skip it. I guess many of them have hysterectomies and have their ovaries removed, but not all, and clearly Thomas kept his. So from the waist down, he probably look like a normal, if hairy, woman.
As for what makes him a man, one can have one's gender changed on one's birth certificate is almost every state. So feeling strongly that he is a man and then having his legal identity changed to reflect the gender he identifies as is what makes him a man.
truly looks like someone who could, if the mood stuck him(?), go fuck himself. wouldn't be great for the gene pool tho. will he breastfeed? ya know, one has to take a test, pass and buy a license to catch a fish or drive a car, but anyone with proper genitalia can have a kid. who knows, maybe they will make excellent parents... lov3 ya b-b!
:O!!
bloody mammals
Gender is in the brain.
Sex is in the crotch.
Whatever works for you.
Why don't you all grow up and either discover eggs or fission?
Maybe I'm being too literal, or socially inconsiderate, or whatever, but that person is female, not "transgender".
(adj) transgender, transgendered - involving a partial or full reversal of gender
sounds like he's transgendered, though i suspect he doesn't care what you think.
hold that thought, I have to go kill something, I'll be back
This sis sooo cool.
If I were him I would get a tattoo of a seahorse, after delivery of course.
Don
Check on the new stadium while you're there.
I am going to propose and finance legislation which replaces "sex" or "gender" in official documents with a "Y Sex Chromosome" checkbox.
Hopefully it will make this "official" nonsense simpler, it includes those XXY types, and as a bonus will annoy everyone who wants to pretend they don't or do have one.
Re: #18 AARONSTJ
Good write up - one additional note on phalloplasties is that they can cause complications that are life threatening. NYTimes mag just had a nice article on the topic of transmen at women's colleges a few weeks back:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16students-t.html
It might pay to read up a little as this is a complex area and there are divisions in the trans community itself on key issues.
I'm a little surprised by the ignorance and discomfort in this thread, especially here on Boingboing. Though, people are being honest about their feelings, and honesty is always a good place to start.
FTMs typically don't have genital surgery, as the results are generally disappointing in terms of getting a working penis or penis-like appendage. Penis simulation is generally dealt with through packing (soft dildos, usually, for daily wear) and strap-ons, toys, etc. for sexual activity. One assumes too that the wife/partner of an FTM knows what sort of natural equipment their partner has, and that there isn't necessarily a need for a penis. Being a man isn't strictly about having a dick.
FTMs will often have hormone therapy and/or breast-modification surgery, along with more obvious changes in dress and mannerism. Sometimes a person might identify as FTM without any physical/medical intervention happening. At any rate, there is nothing about the FTM process that interferes with 'normal' female reproductive function, apart from the hormone therapy, which Mr. Beattie states in the article he stopped several months before attempting to conceive.
Regardless, the concept of gender is pretty detached from biology at this point, though the vast overwhelming majority of people do live the gender role determined by their genitals. But, it certainly is a lot more fluid than that, for some people. Ditto ditto to the people who think this isn't really news, but I live in San Francisco where this isn't really unheard of. It's something of a bubble here (but a happy, diverse bubble!)
I am not an FTM, nor am I a sex educator, though I'm embarking on training in the latter shortly; so, take this for what it's worth. I would love to hear comments from an FTM Boingboing reader about this.
(Grr, probably duplicating already-posted info, fricka fracka fast typists.)
For #6 posted by ivan256 :
Actually, Thomas IS transgender. Gender can be a fluid, malleable thing that some believe doesn't even exist in binary form.
Sex is the physical manifestation of your genetic code. However, even this definition has its pitfalls, if there are disruptions or multiplications in the expression of the code.
And, although you can't change the expression, you can change the manifestation, hence transexuals.
IVAN256
It's a guy NOT a woman,
and please don't call him "she" that is a really insulting thing to do.
This article was incredible - I am in awe of his bravery and strength. Thank you for posting this
I agree: not all that weird. I've lost track of how many transsexuals I know socially.
One of my favorite-ever blunt kid questions: "But if Daddy's decided he's really a woman, and Mommy's decided she likes girls better, WHY do you have to get a divorce?!"
Ivan256 (6), trust me on this one: that's a transgendered person with a working uterus and ovaries. Insisting on a strict male/female divide just gets exhausting for all concerned. When you lift (well, diminish) the social stigma attached to being something other than strictly male or strictly female, you suddenly find the world is full of 'tweens and others.
Cherry Shiva (7), that's a different argument.
ChetOverton (8), transgenders are conscious of biological issues. I can't imagine the prospective parent is taking the kind of hormones that can cause birth defects.
Gandalf (16), we're nowhere near being able to make functioning reproductive organs from scratch. At most, you get cosmetic simulacra. The female-to-male versions don't work well.
May I ask why addressing a transgendered person in their genetic pronoun is so insulting? Is it more or less worse than addressing someone with the incorrect title, or using "Dr." and "Prof." incorrectly?
It seems to me it has to be one of those learned things, which frankly shouldn't be insulting in any way.
Enh. Pre-op, post-op, therapy or not, doesn't matter to me. If someone identifies as male, I call him "he". If someone identifies as female, I call her "she".
I still find the 'pregnant man' thing kinda creepy.
May I ask why addressing a transgendered person in their genetic pronoun is so insulting? Is it more or less worse than addressing someone with the incorrect title, or using Dr. and Prof. incorrectly?
Please reassure me that you're being deliberately thick. "Dr." and "Prof." don't come equipped with appearance cues. Let me put it for you this way. Calling a woman 'he' is like saying, "I know that you're really a man." Would you say to your doctor, "Gee, it sounds from your accent like you grew up in a trailer park."
Arronstj, I did not know that. Thank you.
ANNOYEDCAPITALIST (32): That's a well-thought-out way to ask what's a very important question. Put simply, gender is not determined by chromosomes. An easy-to-remember phrase is "Sex is what's between your legs; gender is what's between your ears." That's not a perfect way of putting it--and if you're in gender studies or a similar field, it's easy to pick apart--but it's easy to remember and gets the gist kinda right.
Ultimately, gender is constructed in many not-so-subtle ways. For example, parents put baby boys in blue and baby girls in pink. This is before they're anything like sexual beings and, lets be honest, before anyone should even care if they're a boy or a girl. We're lucky to live in a society where some people "grow out of" that initial programming and actually get to think about--and feel for themselves--whether or not they feel more like a "boy" or a "girl" by the way society has (unfortunately, maybe?) defined boys and girls to be. So, in the end, what matters most is what someone feels like on the inside, not what a DNA test might or might not reveal.
The most unfortunate thing for me is that modern english doesn't have an a priori gender neutral pronoun. And, on that note, FYI "they" or "them" is currently deemed appropriate for use in gender-neutral speech and writing instead of the awkward s/he variants.
Hope that helps... (and that I didn't accidentally stick my foot in it somewhere in there. lol)
I want to be a dolphin, and I'm not the first.
I've always been attracted to vast, open expanses of ocean but feel like I was given feet by mistake, so have been anxiously awaiting the necessary technology to remedy the problem. If I can't have flippers, I guess I could settle for a prehensile tail, which would be my second choice for expressing my true self. I suppose I shouldn't limit myself with either/or choices... So, I want to be the first dolphin with a prehensile tail and I'm willing to pay big money to make it happen (just in case someone who can do it reads this).
"I find it interesting that you refer to the Weekly World News as, 'The paper.' The paper contains facts."
"This paper contains facts. And this paper has the eighth highest circulation in the whole wide world. Right? Plenty of facts. 'Pregnant man gives birth.' That's a fact. "
I once learned that a person was transgender after watching them melt-down after someone used the phrase, "you guys." The strength of that reaction was almost frightening. While most of us take gendered pronouns for granted in some cases, understandably those who have undergone gender transformation are a lot more sensitive about it.
I've always found transgender psychology interesting. While someone above has stated that "Being a man isn't strictly about having a dick," a large portion of male psychology IS about the penis.
I wonder how full of a gender experience any transgender person can every truly get. Can a transgender man without a penis ever experience life exactly as a genetic male? Can a transgender woman ever experience life exactly as a genetic female without even having the capability to bear a child?
I don't think so, at least not yet. Of course the matter of EXACT isn't important, but it certainly would be interesting to learn what the differences in those life experiences are.
I do not disagree that gender identity is important and that people who view themselves as a different gender should have the option to transform their body cosmetically to fit their self-perception.
Because so few in the medical community seem to understand gender dysphoria and GID it is really hard to say if any transgender person is getting the full experience.
Now, THIS (this being my comments and opinions) isn't really an important issue. But I just got to thinking about that with a father giving birth to a child. Childbirth is a female experience, much as some men might claim to empathize or to understand it, let's face it, we really don't. It is something wholly wrapped up in the life experience of woman.
It leaves me wondering what the possible long-term effects on this father's gender identity may be. The whole thing is simply fascinating and I hope that the couple consider telling their story to a psychological journal as this event could serve to teach us all a great deal more about ourselves.
Then I guess I'm not human, since I have absolutely no desire to reproduce biologically or otherwise.
Also, is his wife technically a lesbian? Seriously, I'm confused. What?
I think you are reading too far into that statement.
"Wanting to have a biological child is neither a male nor female desire, but a human desire."
That doesn't mean that you aren't human if you don't want children, only that the desire to have a child is not a gender specific desire.
Although I have heard of such stories in the past I think it is important that we keep hearing about them. Many people are simply not used to nor have ever heard of such things, and these types of stories help to open people's minds.
I find the entire trans plight to be quite inspiring. I feel admiration for anyone who would go to such lengths to create the life they want to live, in the body they want to have, and with the identity that rings true for them. I find them courageous.
On top of all of that deciding to have a baby, in spite of the conflict it might bring upon them from their community... well, I completely admire them both for undertaking such a journey.
I think that in another 30-40 years it could be possible for genetically male persons to carry a baby to term. This is a topic that can get peole thinking about all of the things the future might offer.
Our current times are the sci-fi of 20 years ago... just imagine what another 20 years could bring.
Can a transgender woman ever experience life exactly as a genetic female without even having the capability to bear a child?
So infertile women are not really women? That's pretty close to the Baby Machine Doctrine.
Fine, I admit it. I'm confused. I thought the whole point of being transgendered was that you were not comfortable with your original gender. That is, you believe you were born the wrong sex.
So in this case, this woman hated being a woman, so she became a man. Then why give birth which is pretty much the one thing that makes a woman, a woman biologically? As a transgendered man wouldn't that be the most far thing from your mind? Men don't give birth in general. They're not built to. There is no culture behind it. So, why would someone who wants to be seen as a man get pregnant?
I don't know. Would someone, please, explain this to me because like I said, I am confused.
Would someone, please, explain this to me
Six billion humans can't be squeezed into only two psychological profiles. Have a cocktail.
No Antinous, not once have I said that ANYONE, transgendered or not, is not a woman simply because they can't bear children. I think you need to cool your jets and read the rest of my post.
As for infertile women? Being infertile is often a sharp blow to the psyche. One moment you think you are capable of bearing children and then you learn for certain that you are not. So the vast majority of infertile women STILL have a very different life experience to a transgendered woman because most of certainly didn't know they were infertile for their entire lives.
I'm speaking about the differences in gender life experiences here, and I'm certainly not trying to put out biased gender views. I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from overlaying your own bias onto my words.
@Antinous: I assure you, I'm being deliberate, but not thickly so. My question arose because of a negative reaction to a wrong pronoun in discussing the article. We don't really have a lot of visual cues about the person, and I would naturally use "she" when discussing a pregnant person. Focusing on female sexual organs brings them out. What makes anyone think I am using that pronoun in a gendered sense instead of a sexual one?
And titles can be incredibly powerful. Use them incorrectly in Germany. Try to stifle a laugh when a PhD repeatedly insists on being referred to as "Dr." Watch the sadness of a woman who is addressed as "Ma'am" by a child when she is too young.
Frankly, I'm a bit amused by the fact that anyone can be so incensed by these usages, or of "incorrect" pronouns when referring to transgendered people. It seems hilarious to me that their comfort requires them to force people around them to conform to them.
I have nothing against transgendered people. Nor anything against voluntary amputees.
I do have issues with people who are offended at mere parts of my speech.
I do have issues with people who are offended at mere parts of my speech.
@47, I am fairly certain that if you were regularly referred to by a pronoun that did not match your gender, you would not be quite so amused by it.
I think you need to cool your jets and read the rest of my post.
@46, Your post was lovely, but that particular statement was an epic fail. Try re-reading it.
AnnoyedCapitalist, what you may have done in ignorance, others do with malice. Having been corrected, it would behoove you to remain so.
On a related note, is there a preferred pronoun cue I can learn to figure out what to use? Dress doesn't always help, nor hair, nor physical appearance. Is there a polite way to ask in an ambiguous situation?
No Antonius, I think your grasp of what I am saying is an Epic fail. If you stop projecting your bias (or your defensiveness against perceived slight)you will see how wrong you are.
Honestly, it just looks like you are trolling for a flame war with me, and I have no idea why.
As for #47? Gender identity is VERY important to Transgendered people. Think about it, you are talking about a number of people who felt so strongly about their gender identities that they underwent surgery.
Of course they are going to be offended by the wrong gender pronoun.
Billions go hungry, war rages, the planet fails...
yet some find it profitable to debate if others are fully human or not on the basis of notions of bits of flesh and social roles that have always been ever changing.
what's the big deal? this guy and his wife want a kid and are doing it in the most biologically feasible way. he has a functioning uterus, she does not... badda-bing.
besides, as a couple they discussed it, planned for it, have been through numerous difficulties to achieve it... sounds like this child is fortunate enough to be very much wanted.
what i find much, much more bizarre are "women" such as britney spears, who reproduce in the "normal" way, yet are not emotionally or mentally prepared, possibly not fit, to be parents... it is ill-advised pregnancies like these that i find revolting...
@44 for Mekkio:
Of course I cannot speak for them, but I think the couple's desire to have a child overruled the father's need to identify as a male.
One can argue the option to adopt, but their family profile might make it difficult (especially considering the doctors' receptiveness) to find approval.
They had one perfectly good uterus & set of eggs between the two, so I think this was a logical decision to make. They are having a child (with very little in the way of artificial methods) that will inherit the genetic code of at least one parent.
As far as childbirth being a female experience, now being experienced by a man, I don't think he could ever have forgotten that he was once female in gender & sex regardless. This could be treated as a temporary return to that state for the greater good of the family as a whole.
I hope that helps.
I find it ironic and fascinating that they resorted to "home insemination" when several doctors refused them care. Adoption seems like it would have been a far simpler means of procuring a child.
I wonder how full of a gender experience any transgender person can every truly get. Can a transgender man without a penis ever experience life exactly as a genetic male? Can a transgender woman ever experience life exactly as a genetic female without even having the capability to bear a child?
A large portion of general male psychology is about the penis, and for most women their reproductive ability and the experience of childbirth is a significant aspect of their understanding and experience of womanhood.
But there are many people, including but very certainly not limited to trans people, who are exceptions to this general rule. Trans men are not the only people who have to figure out a way to assert an identity *as* men despite a lack of a penis. Trans women are not the only women who could never bear a child.
Injury and disease rob many men of male genital anatomy. There are men born intersex, neither physically male nor female. Penile cancer is rare, but exists. And the phalloplasty procedure has actually experienced a sudden surge of demand - thanks to the Iraq war. When a man's leg is blown off, there's no magic shield protecting the slightly higher extremities. All men in such circumstances have to consider either the imperfect and mind-bogglingly expensive surgical options available (if they can even possibly afford them), or have to learn to live with a reality in which they do not have a penis, and yet are men anyway.
And with regards to the ability to bear children - most of the women in my immediate family will never be able to bear children. We have a very high rate of infertility, and as a result, all of my cousins are adopted. While my aunts would greatly love to have the capability to bear a child, they can't, and barring medical advances they never will. This is not a particularly unusual situation.
Our experiences aren't the same as those of cisgender (ie, not trans) people. But everyone's experiences of their gender is different. A straight woman is not going to have the same experience of being a woman as a lesbian. My aunts will not experience womanhood or motherhood exactly the same way my mother did. A man who has to undergo castration and estrogen treatment (a common last resort to combat aggressive prostate cancer) is not going to have the same experience of being a man as the average guy.
But these differences do not invalidate a given individual's status *as* a man or woman. Just different kinds of men and women.
Is there some reason why adoption wasn't considered? I don't understand people's insistence on reproducing their own DNA, even in the face of hundreds of good reasons not to, when we're all virtually identical anyway.
Is there some reason why adoption wasn't considered? I don't understand people's insistence on reproducing their own DNA, even in the face of hundreds of good reasons not to, when we're all virtually identical anyway.
Because the fact that you don't understand it puts you in a very small minority. Even most people who don't want their own genetic kids understand why the large majority does.
Since trans people are still discriminated against, I can see why adoption may be a more difficult option than home insemination. The adoption process usually requires a very detailed background check. This would turn up the fact that Thomas is trans, and it is more than likely he and his wife would be discriminated against...
With understanding, many aspects of life will be open to trans people, but we're not there yet, unfortunately
What we really need is to separate marriage from the legal aspects. When will a political candidate have the guts to propose that full legal rights are afforded to all couples of a generously defined civil union / domestic partnership, and marriage is an optional thing, perhaps religious or spiritual, that can be done in whatever way the couple feels appropriate but is wholly separate from any legal recognition?
#54- This may seem laughable to you, but have you thought about it? The dr won't treat him due to personal discomfort- it's like those pharmacists who won't dispense birth control pills to a woman they believe or assume isn't married. What place is it for them to judge?
To address several other things:
-Being transgender has nothing to do with hating one's gender. It's more with feeling and being of another gender.
-Sexual identity is not defined by genitalia, nor is it a simple binary system. Far from it. Many biologists believe rather than two genders, we should be more on a scale of five genders. This man not having a penis has nothing to do with his identity. He says he's a man, that is fine by me.
-I refer to someone how they prefer to be addressed. It's not my judgment call. If I don't know, I ask, the same way I would ask a professor what title they would like to be addressed as.
-It's easy to say 'oh, that kid is gonna have a messed-up life! that kid has weird parents! how could they do that to their child?' A mother of color, a person with a disability, a parent who is 'too young/too old', all of these people have probably experienced discrimination for who they are and there have been programs from time to time that have sought to limit these people's reproductive choices. If a mother of color is going to have a child, do we say 'no, your child will have it too rough!' or do we say 'screw it if the naysayers have a problem, it's the world that has to change'
Pro-choice. Your body, your decision.
#7 - When will not wanting to breed be considered normal? Probably not ever. Propagation of the species is a biological imperative. That doesn't mean that if you don't want to breed you are wrong or broken somehow, but it is the norm. As a woman who has chosen not to breed, I am often frustrated by people's lack of understanding regarding my choice, but I also get that it will always be considered unusual. We aren't programmed to NOT breed, and it's a good thing because we wouldn't be here if we were.
#8 - There are a number of endocrine dysfunctions that can cause severely unbalanced hormones in women. Untreated, they can cause most or all of the effects that a transman would be shooting for with hormone therapy. Women who suffer from this often get treated and then go on to breed, without any more risk than other healthy women. I can see no reason why the same thing wouldn't apply to a woman who purposely raised her testosterone levels artificially as to a woman whose testosterone level was raised because of a dysfunction within her body.
#16 - Did you read the article? It states pretty clearly exactly what he has going on in his pants.
#19 - I think that it is unlikely that he will breastfeed. I think it mentioned somewhere in the article that he had reconstructive chest surgery which would have removed much of the mammary tissue that produces milk. Even if he still has milk-producing mammary tissue it is possible (maybe even likely, don't know, not a surgeon) that there would be scar tissue and other damage that might prevent breastfeeding. When doing a breast reduction (or removal) they often take the nipple off completely during the surgery and then sew it back on at the end, and I would assume this would interfere with getting the milk to and out of the nipple.
#32 - Even thought I think you are being purposely inflammatory and provoking, I will explain why you are way off the mark on this. A pronoun that references one's gender identity is inherently more personal and sacred than a title like Dr. Your gender identity is not bestowed upon you by a university.
Addressing a transgendered person by their "genetic pronoun" is inconsiderate because that person has obviously chosen to identify as a different gender, does not want to be identified by their "genetic pronoun" and for you to continue to refer to him or her as such is showing no respect for his or her wishes. The concept of respect in this situation is not much different than if you told people that you preferred to be called by your middle name, but they insisted on calling you by your first. It's not the end of the world, but it shows that those people have an inherent lack of respect for your choices.
#39 - You ask if a transgender male or female can ever experience life exactly as a genetic male or female. I think that this question is a non-starter, even if you take into account the ability to bear children or the lack thereof. There is no official male or female experience that biological men and women have. My experience as a female is different from the experience of every other woman on this planet. Because each of us has our own unique experience, it doesn't make any sense to think that even if a transwoman could carry a child she would be given to having the same life experience as biological woman who can have children. Of course women and men have shared experiences within their genders, but that doesn't mean we all understand everything about all the people who share our gender. As a childless woman, there are a lot of life experiences that my friends with babies have that I just can't even begin to relate to. The unusual girl who had a hysterectomy early in her life doesn't understand the experience of menstruation, but that doesn't mean that her experience as a woman is less full.
All this discussion about rights and gender has me a little confused. On the one hand we have an emphasis on gender that is so strong that people are traumatized by it. But at the same time we maintain that gender really doesn't make any difference.
So what about the gender identification needs of children? Is it such a radical idea to think that kids need both a mother and father? If someone wants to make their own lifestyle choices that's one thing.
But to insist that gender is so essential to your identity that surgery is the only answer and then to claim that gender is so irrelevant to your children that it makes no difference seems like trying to have it both ways.
#62 - I'm sorry, it's just plain wrong to suggest that a child needs a mother and a father to grow up healthy and or happy - and it is double wrong to suggest that a child needs a mother and a father that were born a specific sex or gender.
Studies have shown that children of LGBT parents are at least as healthy, happy, and well adjusted (if not more) than children from conventional marriages. What's most important is to have parents who wanted you, and prepared for you and made a very intentional decision to bring children into their lives. Thomas obviously has - rock on.
#62 - I don't think anyone here has said that gender doesn't make any difference. People have said that it is fluid and subject to change, and people have said that it shouldn't matter, but I don't recall anyone laboring under the delusion that it doesn't matter.
That said, two gender parenting isn't necessary for the healthy development of a child. Need examples? How about all of the examples of gay couples raising well-adjusted children? How about the endless examples of single parents raising solid kids? I knew a girl in high school who was being raised by her grandmother and her aunt, and she seemed pretty okay.
If that's not enough, let's take a look at nature. Two gender parenting is not generally the norm among mammals. Males are programmed to spread their seed as far and wide as possible and, as such, don't tend to stick around for the rearing. Elephants raise their offspring in communities that do not include any adult males.
I think that while gender identity is important to each individual's sense of self, it is not very relevant to their child. I think that most children are not very concerned with what is in mommy's pants as what is in mommy's heart.
Rush Limbaugh's head just exploded!
If we just a donkey to give birth to a human being, we can also get Hannity and Savage's head to explode!
Hahahahaha! Good job, transgender dudette/dude/whatever!
:D
It may in some ways be dated now, but I highly recommend the chapters in Butlers gender trouble dealing with psychoanalysis.
Although in practice, transgender should be simple [ie you're transgendered, I'm over it already], I agree with #62 to some extent; in the realm of theory, it tends to be more complicated. With FtMs I understand surgery isn't done; testosterone injections swell up the clitoris into a small penis, and thats as good as technology currently allows, although in a few years, who knows? But even MtF isn't a massive medical procedure. Both genetic men and women come from the same stuff; to make the change, simply rearrange.
Anyway, its a whole other argument, but I agree with Freud that gender is more less derived from having to deal with ones parents. You eventually identify with your competitor for love. Or not, if you're weird. For Freud, everyone starts out bisexual. Butler added to that gender as a performance conditioned by desire [which as Lacan says is /always/ desire for the desire of the other]. The Buddhists here may disagree, but one cannot escape desire, and therefore gender. It does not follow that there are only two genders, however. Admittedly, people are more or less the same, but why not say there are as many genders as sexualities?
I really wish I had the link, but an Australian group issued a manifesto demanding new artificial sex organs more efficiently designed for sexual pleasure. Really, up with that sort of thing.
Here... I can be someone for everyone to hate:
Allow me to partition you off.
Side A) Gender Matters - it's sick.
Side B) Gender Doesn't matter - it's brave.
Side C) There's no such thing as gender.
Side A: Not your life. Be glad your mother didn't have a full beard. There was once a time where people didn't have machine or baboon hearts. That time is gone.
Side B: If gender doesn't matter, then why change it in the first place? A person's sex doesn't match their gender, they change it... fine. But this whole mix-n-match, one from column A one from column B salad bar approach IS WEIRD. The vast majority of people do not do this. You can go on and on about how it's beautiful, or special or anything you can conjure - you will never trump, ever trump, the fact that it's just bizarre. Doesn't negate any of your points... just deal with the fact that it's odd.
Side C: I'm quite sure there's biological stratum of gender, but it's not a naturally occurring phenomenon for this to manifest itself physically.
Just because medical science is now allowing for us to build physical representations of these levels doesn't mean everyone should be like "Oh, what an understandable phenotype!"
So in conclusion, layer whatever caring and sensitive or confused and aggravated patina over the following, indisputable truths:
Genetically male humans don't give birth.
We're now at a point where we're surgically manufacturing ones that do.
Focus on whichever of those two points that irritates you and beat it into your skull until you accept that fact.
Honestly, it just looks like you are trolling for a flame war with me, and I have no idea why.
Perhaps you could re-read your own comment and then read most of the other subsequent comments, particular the ones from women and transgendered persons. That might help you understand that a lot of people are offended by the question, Can a transgender woman ever experience life exactly as a genetic female without even having the capability to bear a child? You have asked if women can truly be women if they can't be used as baby machines.
Way to go, boingboing. Thanks for posting this.
#63, I see your point--there aren't any long-term studies on what happens when trans men who have taken testosterone in the past have children. We do know that testosterone levels drop off pretty quickly after you discontinue testosterone shots, and that several trans men have had healthy kids. On the other hand, we do also know that fetuses are extremely hormone-sensitive. That's why I personally hope to adopt, but there's a definite chance I'll be discriminated against by adoption agencies, and in the event that I ever split with my partner, I would lose out on the rights courts tend to afford biological parents.
Also, what rudimentary scientific evidence there is about the brains of trans people suggests that our brains are morphologically more similar to the gender we identify with rather than our birth sex.
#49 Diatryma: "On a related note, is there a preferred pronoun cue I can learn to figure out what to use? Dress doesn't always help, nor hair, nor physical appearance. Is there a polite way to ask in an ambiguous situation?"
This is exact same issue I have. Everyone has a default. I don't believe the man who insists you call him "Dr." is any less offended than the person who underwent this surgery. If you proposed this gender question, meant for the transgendered, to a strange-looking "normal" should she or he not be offended by your presumption? My point is that getting offended at these things that even the kindest heart can make is absolutley silly and pedantic.
The best response for the person offended would be to politely ask for a change. An kind person would comply. Should you run into me and demand my compliance, however, you will be met with my pronouns: "sex-she" and "sex-he".
Everyone done yet?
Now, shall we send Thomas and Nancy some of the traditional gifts associated with the birth of a human child?
On the topic of pronouns, some people have thrown out ze/hir as alternatives to the traditional specific pronouns, but I don't think its caught on at all, really.
@68: You missed an option.
D) Gender matters; this is awesome.
Kristy
Chetoverton @8:
Man, you must get incredibly worked up about anyone over 30 having kids! Those folks are known with certainty to be increasing the risk of genetic defects. Could you send me links to any comments you've ever made anywhere addressing this issue? I'd like to see your thoughts on this.
Antinous @everywhere: It's never insulting to make a mistake. I don't have any idea what gender or sex you are, so I might in ignorance call you he or she in error. It would be silly to be insulted by that. Transgendered people aren't sufficiently common that most people can be expected to know what most of them consider the proper form of address, and taking quick offence at the errors of the ignorant isn't going to open anyone's mind.
To whoever said "they" isn't an appropriate gender-neutral pronoun: "'He' started to be used as a generic pronoun by grammarians who were trying to change a long-established tradition of using they as a singular pronoun. In 1850 an Act of Parliament gave official sanction to the recently invented concept of the 'generic' he."
#68
I can understand and accept homosexuality, and I can accept transgender people. I understand that people are the way they are sexually, and I believe that people are free to do with their bodies as they wish provided they are willing to pay their own way.
What bothers me is not the two points you mention. I understand that homosexuality is not a choice, but what bothers me is transgender people who try and claim that what they did to their bodies wasn't a choice they made, and therefore we shouldn't judge them by it. Discriminating based on what somebody is is a terrible thing, but discriminating based on choices people make is completely fair territory. I respect their right to do what they do, and I would hope they respect my right to think it's dumb. There are plenty of straight people who I don't think reproduce either.
"discriminating based on choices people make is completely fair territory. I respect their right to do what they do, and I would hope they respect my right to think it's dumb"
yeesh! read some books, there's at least 40 years worth available now. If you think transexuality is a "choice", you haven't done any homework AT ALL.
The scary thing about this post is not that there is a lot of ignorance about this issue, but that there are several indignant posters who came in here seemingly to ridicule the transgendered for having the audacity to think they are anything but what their genetic code says.
Life is not black and white, as someone has already said. Hell, I just became an uncle through a relative going through in vitro fertilization, something the Pope just came out and declared a mortal sin.
It's interesting that issues like these seem to prove the fact that most of life's issues come not from malice but ignorance.
See, AnnoyedCapitalist, that's kind of what I meant. You are being rude because it has been pointed out to you that you made a faux pas. That does not excuse your rudeness. Having been presented with a person who considers himself male, is legally male, and uses a male pronoun, you insist upon calling him 'she'.
As you said, a polite person would comply with the correct pronouns.
If someone refers to me using male pronouns, I will correct that person once. Any further need for correction is either intentional and malicious or insensitivity, and neither speaks well of those who need it. I consider myself female. I am legally female. I use female pronouns.
I don't think that the Dr/Prof analogy holds up very well. It may be more analogous to a woman not taking her husband's surname, and always being called that by his family-- of course she's a Smith now, she married a Smith! That the family refuses to use her actual name is rude and demeaning.
It doesn't work entirely; gender is closer to most people than surname.
#77
No matter what any book says, surgically and chemically altering yourself for conditions that do not affect your physical health is a choice. Are you saying it wasn't a choice for this person to have their breasts removed? If it wasn't a choice to take testosterone, how come they had the choice to stop when it was convenient? He admits in the article that it was a choice whether or not he kept his reproductive organs... So the person in question admits it is a choice, why would you disagree with him?
Like I said, I respect the person's right to make that choice, but I reserve the right to think it's dumb.
#79:
Animals who are male do not carry children in their womb, unless they are Arnold Schwarzenegger. I agree that it's rude, but that doesn't change the fact that under one definition of the word, AnnoyedCapitalist is correct. Calling a spade a spade is not necessarily bad, and I think that in this situation the clear male/female boundary is obviously being violated, and both prononouns have their pros and cons.
I think we'll just have to understand that until this becomes commonplace and there's accurate verbiage to describe it, that toes will be stepped upon from time to time.
IVAN, it is for health. Maintaining emotional health is just as valid a reason for someone to receive treatment as to as physical health.
By your logic, insurance companies shouldn't cover individuals who use antidepressants or the like because it's "a choice". Or perhaps your point is that gender identity disorder is not real?
#79 Diatryma: You only like your analogy better because it suits your preferences. Mine is just as valid.
I didn't intend to use the "she" pronoun again, and don't see where I used it above. I've been trying to avoid that in the hypotheticals I've given. I think your rule is perfectly acceptable. Maybe extend the cutoff a bit if dealing with people whose first language doesn't use gendered pronouns.
And honestly the only reason I've argued this far is to be rationalize my calling MtF transgendered women "sex-she" in my best Sean Connery voice. Until corrected or told to knock it off, of course.
For all those who have expressed confusion about how you can politely ascertain what pronoun a person prefers: Yes, you can ask. Don't beat around the bush, just say something like "hey, what pronoun do you use/prefer?" Once someone has told you, it's the only one you can use politely. Of course,honest mistakes happen; if you screw up, don't freak out. Correct yourself quickly and move on with whatever you were saying.
Generally, trans people aren't looking for excuses to get mad at you, but if you consistently and pointedly use the wrong pronoun, we can assume that you're doing it to be a dick. If you're trying to get it right and are generally treating us like regular people, it shows.
Of course, a lot of non-trans people may get upset at the idea that someone thinks they might be trans, but your still better off asking than guessing wrong.
You know, I'm kinda glad I'm just gay: it seems like it's a whole hell of a lot easier to deal with...
Well, a good Sean Connery voice forgives many things.
I think the difference in our analogies depends on how closely we feel titles describe ourselves. I will, if nothing goes horribly wrong and a few things go wondrously right, be a Dr in a few years. This doesn't mean much to me right now. I have friends who are Mrs, friend who are Mr, friends who are Ms. The titles don't matter; they're fluid anyway. I expect to change titles.
But I have seen a lot of anger over calling people the right name. My mother is not, and never has been, Mrs John Surname. My brother is J* M*, not and never J*, even if it took yelling at his teachers-- because they have to get his name right, at least. My sister's name is similar to other, more common girls' names, but she does not look kindly on being called any of them (one strike against my grandfather's wife is that she has never once pronounced it correctly).
Of course, in Germany, titles matter much more. Difference in background.
Antinous,
once again, you are obviously projecting your own issues onto my words.
"Perhaps you could re-read your own comment and then read most of the other subsequent comments, particular the ones from women and transgendered persons. That might help you understand that a lot of people are offended by the question, Can a transgender woman ever experience life exactly as a genetic female without even having the capability to bear a child?
"You have asked if women can truly be women if they can't be used as baby machines."
Nope, your comment is wholly inaccurate. See, I've NEVER stated that you can't be a woman without the ability to bear children. Indeed, I fully accept transgendered individuals. I am CURIOUS as to how their life experience as a woman might differ. That is a wholly seperate thing.
I don't know, maybe you are so used to dealing with bigotry that you see it everywhere, but really, you do nobody any favors by picking fights with people who are looking at things from a wholly philosophical level. Let me quote a DIFFERENT portion of my post to you, one you seem to have skipped...
"Now, THIS (this being my comments and opinions) isn't really an important issue."
Because I'm a bit off-topic here. I'm pondering something that is difficult, if not impossible, to quantify. Does a transgendered person really get the full experience of their chosen gender? This isn't to mock, poke fun, or ridicule, its a serious question.
I'm not sitting here sa