Bjork pisses China off over Tibet independence
Bjork won't be performing in China any time soon -- the singer shouted "Tibet, Tibet," after performing her song "Declare Independence," which was originally about Greenland.
Her remark was not reported in official media, but led to criticism when it began to circulate on the web. While China's 58-year occupation of Tibet remains controversial abroad, most Chinese see Tibet as a part of their country and regard calls for its independence as intrusive and divisive.Here's an article and video from the Guardian, Link to others on YT.
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I hope the media has a field day during the Olympics in Beijing. China has not lived up to its promises of greater freedom for the Olympics. They support Sudan. They can not regulate their industries. They allow child slave labor. And so on.
Can you blame her? The mass murder of the Tibetans is just atrocious.
Good for her, kicking against the pricks!
This why I love Bjork. She does exactly what she wants to.
Bully for Bjork!
More performers should speak up - or not perform in China. Anybody recall the "Ain't Gonna Play Sun City" musicians and performers who would not play in South Africa under Apartheid?
I agree with #1 post also and hope that media and athletes alike make pointed remarks like Bjork, and embarrass the hell out of the Chinese government at the Olympics.
FREE TIBET!
Bjork's message to the audience in Shanghai was simple yet profound and powerful - the controversy and discussion it has ignited around the world is what threatens the Chinese Government more than anything. They are afraid of the inspiration and courage that she represents to thousands of young Tibetans, their supporters, and Chinese dissidents who believe in justice and freedom for all - and who will ultimately be a force for change in Tibet and in China.
Rock On Bjork. Rock on.
FREE TIBET!!!
www.studentsforafreetibet.org
www.beijingwideopen.org
www.youtube.com/sfttv
On the other hand, Tibet under the Dalai Lamas was one of the world's last slave states. The Dalai Lama's title, which is half Chinese (Dalai) and half Tibetan (Lama), supports the argument that Tibet has always been part of China. Which doesn't mean Tibet shouldn't be free, but it certainly means the situation is not as simple as Bjork thinks.
Worth reading: Michael Parenti's Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth.
The depressing thing is how much Tibet is a non-issue to most mainland Han Chinese. That is, they are 100% confident in their belief that China has a perfect right to behave how it has there. This bodes very poorly for any hope of increased independence for Tibet. Of course it was a theocratic slave society prior to China's invasion so perhaps going back to the true old days wouldn't be that great either.
In any case, I would happily be a lower caste in a theocratic slave society were Bjork to be my God-King.
Björk definetely is short of several marbles but I do love her.
But relations between Tibet and China are far too complicated to be sorted out that easy, but it's good she raised the topic.
@Will Shatterly:
Actually, it doesn't really matter if Tibet is "historically an integral part of China" because, well - who writes history? See.
I personally think it's just wrong to invade a country, kill people and then send thousands and tens of thousands people over for a slow genocide: Today, there are more Han Chinese in Tibet than Tibetans. The Tibetan language in Tibet dies. Tibetan culture dies, Tibetan religion in Tibet is more a touristic spectacle than a religious experience.
That's wrong - no matter if Tibet was a part of China since this princess married the whatnot. Of course Tibet wasn't Shangrila before China invaded - but that has nothing to do with the fact that Invasion and Genocide is just wrong.
Free Tibet!
And the Panchen Lama!
And while you're at it, make Taiwan declare complete indepence without any interest with a reunification with the "motherland"!
Tibet under the Dalai Lamas was one of the world's last slave states
To be fair, the article that you linked also mentions that the current Dalai Lama describes himself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist due to his support for egalitarian distribution of resources. It's a shame that the government of China doesn't support egalitarian distribution of resources. It might make their arguments a bit more credible.
"The Dalai Lama's title, which is half Chinese (Dalai) and half Tibetan (Lama), supports the argument that Tibet has always been part of China."
Unfortunately, historical reality does not support this argument at all. At best, Tibet has occasionally been a client state of China at various points in the last 1500 years of so. China has very rarely had full military control over Tibet in that period and has almost never had political control.
I do think that the PRC has acted horribly in Tibet and has no moral right to control Tibet. At the same time, how many of the American activists (and commentators above) who are outraged at what the PRC has done are willing to give their real estate in the US back to the Native Americans? Has Richard Gere turned over his various homes and the land they occupy to their rightful owners? I think not. It's easy to demand justice when it only costs other people.
Tibet as part of China has never been universally accepted by nations, so that's a lie.
As for the historical connections between Tibet and China, it woudl be worth doing a little bit research, read a book such as Thomas Laird's The Story of Tibet: A Conversation with the Dalai Lama that is a very good summary of the complicated relationships.
Basically if you have a culture that does not speak Chinese, do not use the Chinese alphabet, don't cook Chinese food, neither use Chinese clothes, nor Chinese architecture, and still claim it's part o the Chinese motherland is somewhat absurd, me thinks. Or a sign what the Chinese want to do with all the other Asian cultures.
She was singing 'To bed, to bed. To bed, to bed.'
Its got nothing to do with Tibet.
Free Tibet...with any purchase over $20.
Oh, and "Dalai" is Mongolian, not Chinese.
"But relations between Tibet and China are far too complicated to be sorted out that easy, but it's good she raised the topic."
I wonder if we would say the same thing if the German Reich still controlled Poland and Austria.
I'll take Godwin's Law by comment 16, Alex.
the title makes it sound like anyone really like bjork before the concert....
Flakcatcher,
That's good. I hadn't heard about Godwin's Law. Is there a corollary about pointless, snotty comments that reference Jeopardy?
FREE GREENLAND!
@idle tuesday:
no, but there is one timeless adage, "you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself".
Comparing China's relation to that between Germany and Austria-Hungary actually makes your arguments worse, if only because Germany and Austria really do share much of the same culture.
Secondly, this whole 'free tibet!' nonsense has gone on far too long. Just because someone preaches universal love doesn't mean they should be forgiven for having the eyeballs torn out of people who steal sheep from the monarchy. China likened Tibet much as we likened the western half of the united states to our "manifest destiny". Like some poster said above, it's easier to demand justice when it only inconveniences others...
Take the facts aside, there are a few logical errors here:
1. Not considering historical aspects: If we didn't consider if China had any soverignty before and just consider the currect state, we probably also should not consider the genocides half a century ago. If we just consider Tibet at its current state, there are plenty of developments and investment from the central government. Development may sound negative over at the Western world, but it is not the case in China.
2. Considering historical aspects: If we consider history, then we know that Tibet has been part of China at least since Qing dynasty, earlier than the US declaring independence. It could have been earlier, as documents had long ago described the plateau, but the border had never been secured because: 1. Those were barren lands, 2. Hardly ever did barbarians invade from that side of China.
I find most people on this issue hypocritical, because there are way worse genocides going on around the world at this very moment, and the fact that the United States was built on a piece of land that they never owned half a millenium ago. (I guess Europeans are consistent about this issue, as we know that Europe is now divided into hundreds of countries.) And most people were just saying what they say due to Nationalism or media influence.
China needs to step up and face its history if it wants a place in the world. They were doing it at a very slow pace, but at least they did, say, for admitting serious errors in Cultural Revolution (but not a lot of other things). It's hard to escape from or erase facts or accusations in the 20th century, but then, who knows? It's not like people playing their Wiis, watching Italian soccer or driving their Mercedes know what those countries of their origin did back in the days.
James W,
You're right, the comparison I made was facile, but my point was just because China's invasion of Tibet happened outside the living memory of most of the people here in this discussion doesn't make China's actions acceptable. In my reference to Germany, I was trying to emphasize that eventually Europe didn't accept Germany's invasion of Poland (despite the similarities that you say exist in their cultures. I bet there are Austrians and Poles who would argue that point with you better than I can).
I know that at some point in history we have to accept what has happened and move on, but what's the reason for people's acceptance of what China's done. Is it because the world doesn't want to upset them because of the economic and military consequences? Are these good enough reasons?
I guess I look at a country like China (and any other country that behaves like it) and think, "They're bullies." They'll use their economic and military clout to do whatever they want, and no one will do a damn thing about it. I don't think it's fair. Naive? I guess it is. Ethical? I'd bet on it.
and if Hitler has only been beaten back to his borders? If he still stoked the furnaces?
GENOCIDE!
GENOCIDE!
GENOCIDE!
Why, don't you know? Björk IS Hitler!
only in Beijing
"At the same time, how many of the American activists (and commentators above) who are outraged at what the PRC has done are willing to give their real estate in the US back to the Native Americans?"
yo shangui,
How are you familiar with the nationalities of the 'commentors above'? And do you know that as an Icelander, Bjørk's country has no modern history of imperial expansion? A nice cynical position you've got there, but it doesn't at all relate to this post or this thread.
& speaking of imperial expansion: comparing recent a military occupation to the settlement of America? Really? Tell me more about your metaphor. Or was it just convenient?
Björk also won't perform at a music festival in Novi Sad, Serbia later this year because in a recent concert in Japan she dedicated one performance of "Declare Independence" to Kosovo.
The organizers cancelled her contract for the festival saying they "couldn't guarantee her safety from public outrage". I think they really meant to say "couldn't protect from lynching".
If only she had shouted Tibet in Chinese to her Chinese-speaking audience, instead of English, someone other than Boingboing editors might have noticed or cared.
Actually, I do see some paralells to China invading Tibet to the German Reich invading Poland (Austria is another matter, google it).
Both happened rather fast and quite efficient, both went against people with a different culture and a different language.
Just the reactions of the international community were different. One happened in the middle of Europe, the other happened in some part of the Himalaya hardly anyone had ever heard about.
And I guess the Chinese Army is rather a lot bigger than the German ever was.
Another thing I really don't get is why Mao is usually seen as some benevolent pop culture icon (thanks to Warhol), because he is just as bad as Hitler and Stalin.
One more reason to worship the Bjork? Like I needed one.... HA!
Actually Mao was worse than Hitler or Stalin.
"yo shangui,
How are you familiar with the nationalities of the 'commentors above'? And do you know that as an Icelander, Bjørk's country has no modern history of imperial expansion? A nice cynical position you've got there, but it doesn't at all relate to this post or this thread."
Yo omphagia agogo!
I'm not, that's why I said, "American activists (and commentators above)" (the adjective "American" was supposed to apply to both "activists" and "commentators above." You'll note also that I specifically criticized an American actor, Richard Gere. Finally, I didn't criticize Bjork specifically (though she is a property owner in NYC and I doubt she's going to be giving her land in Nyack back to the Native Americans) and in fact welcomed her to be my God-King! Not cynical, just trying to be realistic (aside from the God-King part). I actually lived in China for many years and have good friends there and in the US who are Tibetan and have showed me some of the nuances of this issues that are missed at Beastie Boys concerts.
Shangui: "Oh, and "Dalai" is Mongolian, not Chinese."
"Dalai" is just the Mongolian translation of his Tibetan name: Tenzin "Gyatso", which translates to "Ocean" in English.
Anyway, I think it was brave of Bjork to shout Tibet Tibet. :)
FREE TIBET!
Will, I fear those are not inarguable statements.
MightyMouse, plenty of people like Bjork.
Kid, I'll let it go this time, but just so you know: I loathe the pseudo-argument that says that people are "hypocritical" if they express concern about one set of injustices, but fail to mention other injustices the speaker is aware of.
It's an absolutely useless argument, especially since the people who make it seldom stick around to discuss either the original or the enlarged version of the issues. In fact, it most frequently seems to function as an excuse for the interloper to seize center stage, denounce everyone in lofty tones of unearned moral superiority, and depart.
Since that's surely not what you were doing, you should strive to avoid giving the appearance of a common internet nuisance.
"Dalai" is just the Mongolian translation of his Tibetan name: Tenzin "Gyatso", which translates to "Ocean" in English.
Yes. I was simply responding to someone earlier who had said it was Chinese.
Teresa, are there any inarguable statements?
In addition to the Dalai Lama getting his title from a Mongolian ruler of China, Tibet paid tribute to China for ages.
As for slavery, here's Kunzig Shamar Rinpoche on the subject: "Every monastery had land, sometimes extensive land. When monasteries bordered one another, they each wanted to protect their own land. They also needed a work force so the peasants became slaves of the monasteries, and administrators reigned like dictators. Sometimes they would fight for bordering land. When an animal from one monastery crossed the border of the other monastery’s territory, it would be kept there, and so on."
Yes, the situation with Tibet is complex, and yes, everyone should be free. But romanticizing the Tibetan slaveocracy is every bit as silly as romanticizing the Confederacy.
Shangui, that was just me being sloppy. Sorry!
what are you, a PLA plant? Tibetean history and society is at least as complex as any. Sure they had feudalism. China still does but they call it Party Membership. Why don't you mention how the monastery system also ensured that any person,regardless of birth circumstances, had a chance for education and participation in the greater culture?
There are so many attacks like this made on the Tibetean cause that they don't bother defending them anymore. Talk about a boot stamping on a face forever.
Takuan, I don't like either side in this history. Based on the research I've done, Parenti's article (which I linked to at #7) is accurate. Yes, he takes a side, but the information he cites is still correct.
The parallels to Cuba are remarkable: the situation for the average Cuban under Batista and the average Tibetan under the Dalai Lama was atrocious, and life was better overall afterward, but life in those places could and should be better yet.
And your claim about the monastery system can only be defended if you believe serfs weren't people. The Atlantic Monthly has the tersest statement on this that I've found: “Tibetans were illiterate; 95 percent of the population was hereditary serfs and slaves owned by monasteries and nobles.”
And here's a good bit from the Washington Post, a very conservative newspaper: "While love for the Dalai Lama overflows in Tibet, few Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt aristocratic clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the bulk of the Dalai’s advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no interest in surrendering the land they gained during China’s land reform to the aristocratic clans. Tibet’s former slaves say they, too, don’t want their former masters to return to power.”I’ve already lived that life once before,” said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was wearing his best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one of the holiest sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshiped the Dalai Lama, but added, “I may not be free under Chinese Communism, but I am better off than when I was a slave.”
Can we not take the cry of "Free Tibet" as a call to free the country from the invaders and its feudal past?
As a Tibetan, I too think we should not romanticize the old order. At the same time I would prefer Tibetans to have control over their own political and economic aspirations rather than China forcing them onto the Tibetan people. The Tibetan Government in Exile in Dharamsala, India, is a democratically elected body... and I hope in the event of Tibet gaining independence that the democratic govt continues.
Quite, and the Dalai Lama is not the Government in Exile, nor vice versa.
There can be no constructive discussion of the rebuilding of Tibetean society until the last Han Chinese is out.
Takuan, you're referring to the Central Tibetan Administration of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, right? The name suggests you're mistaken.
As for waiting until the last Han Chinese is out, that's rather like the Palestinians waiting for the last Israeli to be out, or the Irish waiting for the last English, or the Native Americans waiting for the last European and African and Asian Americans, or-- Well, new situations call for new solutions.
Independence must be gained by those in the oppressed role. They must be the ones willing to step up and start their fight for independence. They must be willing to ask for help. Until the oppressed are willing to die for their freedom and ask for help, it is pointless for anybody else to intervene and answer a call for help that was never placed in a fight for freedom that was never started. See Iraq.
?
If the Tibetans rose now in armed insurrection against the Chinese occupiers they would be utterly exterminated to the last man in less than one week.
They know this, the Chinese know it. Real life is complicated.
Regarding Iraq; Like Iran, their normal political development to a free democracy was retarded and perverted (mainly by America and Britain) into the mess you see today. Their future was assassinated for cheap oil for the West. What would you have them do?
Chinese people talk about how rude Bjork was in mentioning Tibet but c'mon. I'm sure the chinese treatment of tibetans has been a little rude too right?
I found an article with the AIM chat between Bjork and some official in the chinese government. Pretty funny actually.
http://www.236.com/news/2008/03/10/if_they_imd_bjrk_and_china_1_4997.php
I am currently in Poland. I was looking for this clip on Yahoo and it was blocked, I couldn't access it!?! Why do you think that you site comes up number one with this clips?!?! I wrote about this exact thing in my Blog about a week ago. Since then China has murdered 100's of Tibetans and arrested countless others. China has put a tight lid on media. Blocked internet content not just for their own audience but infiltrated networks abroad to manipulate public opinion. Torture and execution and host of other horrible things that communist dictatorships use to oppress are currently being used to subdue a whole people (Tibetans) by a country that tries to make itself look good and host the Olympics (China). This is what I wrote last week:
I am posting a Reuters article about a recent concert in China which amounts to this: Bjork after singing a song (about independence) has broken Chinese law by simply saying ONE WORD twice: Tibet!
China is an imperialist communist country. The very word communist used to be enough to see red; what happened? China is planning to conquer Taiwan - militarily since in no other way will Taiwan agree to become part of China again. China is occupying an ethnically and religiously separate Tibet. China even got Hong Kong back from the British. It has adopted a free market economy which has allowed the Chinese Communism to survive. This does not mean China has become a free or democratic country. It has become a communist country with more resources to censor, oppress and attack. China was given virtually unlimited access to modern technological advances by foreign companies (who are taking advantage of her labor market). What she wasn't given she stole through consistent corporate espionage, continuous cyberattacks and military espionage. Each time we buy a Chinese made product we become accomplices to the trampling of human rights all over the world (Sudan's Darfur region for instance, Tibet, China itself, etc, etc. ) People are being murdered and oppressed by this country and yet we happily do business with their communist leaders and give them even more power to wield????????
Now what got me off my lazy ass this fine Sunday morning to write this, you ask? The Chinese have been quietly growing in power and they're communists... so what? - you say. They meddle in some poor countries' business or support ones that are dictatorships, we do that too - you say. No. What got me really pissed is that I wasn't able to access the clip on Yahoo which shows Bjork saying those two dreaded words "Tibet, Tibet!" China is clearly interfering with internet content all over the world. China is censoring globally! Yahoo and Google have become accomplices to the communist dictatorship's global quest for power. This is the media age and China is winning the war. The communist oppressors are quietly creeping into our homes... censoring what we read, watch and hear by exerting pressure on the companies that have too much too lose if they don't comply to them. (Google and Yahoo for instance).
And one more thing: Remember Tienanmen Square! I do. That same communist government is still in power. Nothing has changed in their ideology. The only difference is they have a lot more resources to push it. If given a chance those tanks will roll right over you in your town square....
The statement, posted on the China's Culture Ministry's Web site, also said "there is no country that admits that Tibet is an 'independent country.'" Lets consider this for a second. Admitting something implies understanding that something is indeed a fact. What this basically says is that everyone knows that Tibet is its own country. China has aggressively attacked it and occupied it for half a century but for various considerations no one publicly admits to that knowledge?! Basically they are saying to their own people that they have scared the rest of the world into silence. Have they?
FREE TIBET!!!
Now a couple other things come to mind. Chinese inferior products have killed a multitude of American citizens. Faulty tires have caused fatal car accidents. Faulty toys have suffocated and killed our children. Faulty baby carriages have strangles a host of toddlers. Thousands of our pets have been killed by poisoned Chinese dog food. Build in obsolescence in Chinese products is designed to keep the products in demand and their price artificially low. I venture to say this is completely intentional and by design. The Chinese communist imperialistic regime is growing in strength while killing their customers withe their inferior products and forcing global media campaigns to keep us buying more!!!
We're are letting them grow in power. I say try to boycott Chinese products whenever you can. Experiment... you may find that in some instances you don't have ANY alternatives. That should scare you in to thinking...
Keep in mind this country is set to conquer it's democratic peaceful neighbor Taiwan. There very well may be a beginning of a Global War in the works there. Doing business with Chinese is like doing business with Nazi Germany. We give them the technology and wealth that in the long run may turn out to be our undoing.
Here is a link to my web page: www.kuffodog.com
Well, if you're watching the news (see what's Bjork started with all these demonstrations!)
Keep active and sign this petition!
http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/6.php?cl=62401095
Many thanks and enjoyed all the comments so far!
Have you guys ever make a search on Tibet?
Please!Please!Please!
Do not say anything just by your information from the media in your own country!Especially,by CNN!!!!!!!!