US gov wants data on Europe air passengers
The US government is pressuring 27 European Union nations to agree on new transatlantic air travel security measures which include armed guards on all flights from Europe to America operated by US airlines. Snip:
The demand to put armed air marshals on to the flights is part of a travel clampdown by the Bush administration that officials in Brussels described as "blackmail" and "troublesome", and could see west Europeans and Britons required to have US visas if their governments balk at Washington's requirements.Link (via Ned Sublette's list)According to a US document being circulated for signature in European capitals, EU states would also need to supply personal data on all air passengers overflying but not landing in the US in order to gain or retain visa-free travel to America, senior EU officials said.
And within months the US department of homeland security is to impose a new permit system for Europeans flying to the US, compelling all travellers to apply online for permission to enter the country before booking or buying a ticket, a procedure that will take several days.
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They're only going to hurt their own economy.
No, those on top benefit no matter what the country is doing.
Hey, this is what you used to have to do to visit the USSR!
and then there is this
http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSL1079208520080210
Combined with 10-finger fingerprints taken at point of entry, and with potential to have data from the electronic devices you carry copied and/or said devices indefinitely confiscated...
Let me say, I'm glad I visited US few times before this madness ensued, as I have not much mood to travel there again while these measures are in place.
'and could see west Europeans and Britons required to have US visas'
I'm British. I have never been to the USA, but I understood a visa was already required and that it took months (or at least several weeks) to arrange. Am I wrong?
Immigration security measures are very reliant on cooperation from other countries. I think most European nations will take these latest demands as a deliberate slap in the face intended to provoke. Therefore, any security staff on that side may be disinclined in future to be particularly diligent in doing what they had been doing to date in terms of stopping threats.
or is that the idea?
Stevemars@6: No, you're part of the "visa waiver" programme and can travel to the US without a visa -- you just fill in a form at the border.
It's actually all a bit irrelevant for EU citizens - the USG is busy pressuring EU members (starting with the UK) to turn over (sorry, "share") all the biometric data collected on their citizens. In Britain's case, that means all the biometric data to be used for ID cards. So the FBI, CIA and whatever unofficial/black ops organisations are being run out of the White House will have this info whether or not you go anywhere near a US border. This is per articles in the Guardian, amongst other places.
Of course US agencies will be completely accountable for their use of this data, which will not be compromised by third parties or used for purposes that are illegal or not approved of by the citizens concerned. Hold on...sorry! That should have read "will be". I've been having problems ever since I started reading that new Bill Kristol column.
who wants to go to Amerika, anyway?
sorry for you who live there, but hey, hang on, dudes, this can't go on forever...
What harms the economy more, a terrorist act, or the REACTION to the terrorist act (in this case the imposition of laws restricting free travel)?
And the laws they enact won't really stop terrorism anyway, just make them find new ways to inflict damage.
The terrorists cannot take our freedoms away, they can only take our lives. WE are the only ones who allow our freedoms to be taken away by our own "leaders."
Live Free or Die.
"The economy". Whose? If you are very rich,a depression is just a chance to get richer.
Flying to the US is already a nightmare. This is just the final straw, really, why would I want to put myself through any more? There are plenty of countries that I've never visited who would welcome my money and not treat me like a criminal for wanting to visit them. Sorry USA, no sale.
guess them terrrsts got Blackberry
Ah yes - U.S. authorities, valiantly fighting the previous battle. Hey, we gotta save face after 9/11!
Of course, there's no chance that a terrorist organization might alter their tactics seven years down the road. It's like if, after the Trojan Horse incident, the defenders had pissed away all their money and manpower enforcing laws against the building of giant wooden animals.
Why hasn't any other countries retaliate yet against USA by making US citizens to go through long-time-wasting forms and drills and such?
#16: Our own country already makes us go through long-time-wasting forms and drills and such; why would the other countries bother?
Because acting the same way is just not a very grown up thing to do?
I guess, but what do I know - maybe we are just too lazy, many we've worked too long in Europe to get the borders down and reduce controls to get them up again.
And honestly: Flying from Heathrow already is bad enough, I'm not sure if I could take any more trouble there without getting into hysterics.
Besides, Japan does. They do all they can to make visiting Japan as unpleasant as visiting the United States.
I'm glad I've been quite often in both countries, at the moment I really don't want to. Actually, I don't think it's going to change, not any time soon. Collecting data is the new thing, someday they might even figure out what to do with them and why they want them so much. Orwell would have been so proud. Or scared.
Nice, I'll be able to walk down the sidewalk without tripping over tourists this summer.
Don't worry world, we don't have much longer of Bush and his cadre of idiots to deal with for much longer..we'll have a whole NEW bunch of idiots next election.
Not to worry, the mindless f*cking oaf will be out soon and hopefully America will become saner again!
why would the absence of the monkey change the organ grinders tune?
Because the Organ Grinder (Dick Cheney), is leaving office with the monkey?
Crap like this makes me embarrassed to be an American. Well, there are other things too, like obnoxious American tourists, but you get the point.
This is actually a good idea because I know very little about Europe in general and reading all this personal, sensitive information should give me a better idea of what lifestyle I will take up when I flee my own oppressive country.
@22
You don't really believe the next Hood Ornament of the Untied Snakes will be able to undo what has been done?
So, going after the oil to support the US dollar didn't work out, now they're after our biometric data.
It's alright Americans! Cheney and puppet are nearly out of office. Provided the Capitol (Reichstag) doesn't burn down between now and the end of the year, I think you'll all be just fine.
I'm not gunphobic, but the idea of putting armed guards on every flight strikes me as idiotic.
We spend BILLIONS of dollars on el Teatro Seguridad de Amerika ostensibly to keep weapons OFF airplanes, then we send guns right around the metal detectors and onto planes.
Why?
Ever since 9/11 (beginning with UA93), no hijacker has been able to retain control of an airline. Not because of any help from air marshals or other armed guards, but because passengers and crew simply won't cooperate with hijackers any more. UA93 never made it to its target in DC. The guy who hijacked the Spanish plane in the Maldives got a face full of hot coffee. Richard Reid was stopped from detonating his shoes. All thanks to the heroic efforts of passengers and crew. No armed guards or air marshals needed.
Meanwhile, if you're dealing with a competent suicide bomber, a gun isn't much help ("don't kill yourself or I'll shoot you!"). And the only time I'm aware air marshals have ever acted in response to a perceived emergency, they shot to death an innocent (but very disturbed) man in Florida.
I therefore see no reason why the gov't should keep stealing seats from airlines (they don't pay the airlines for air marshals' seats, you know) so a bunch of guys (and a few gals) drawing a salary paid with my tax dollars can play more videogames on their gov't-issued PDAs as they whiz back and forth across the Atlantic in first class.
The air marshal program should not be expanded. It should be dismantled and its employees (who I'm sure are great folks) should be assigned to useful tasks that actually benefit our country.
"You don't really believe the next Hood Ornament of the Untied Snakes will be able to undo what has been done?"
These days, I really feel, more and more, that this kind of defeatist cynicism is the real obstacle we have to overcome (worldwide).
I understand why people would feel that way; it's perfectly understandable given all the horrible and absurd things going on. I also think that it is perhaps the #1 reason why things aren't getting any better.
I think things aren't getting any better because those who like them the way they are keep an iron boot heel in the right places.
Terrific, I can see even more international business moving to London or Hong Kong or elsewhere because they don't make people go through this crap. Let's kill tourism, while we're at it, lest we make some inroads to balancing trade while we're a cheap place to visit.
i guess that the terrorists won't instead hijack a plane flying to Canada or Mexico instead? Or within Canada, Mexico or even the USA? I hope the EU tells us to shove it up our ass. The next administration won't be near as bad, we at least have that to hang our hats on.
> These days, I really feel, more and more, that this kind of defeatist cynicism is the real obstacle we have to overcome (worldwide).
Oh no you're not getting off that easily. This is not a case of "Let's all think positive thoughts and everything will be well!" I totally agree with you that biting cynicism isn't going to help your cause, but you have to understand that not only the people in the US are cynical, also pretty much all of the foreigners. Well, except some politician boot lickers, but you get my point. Especially after the monkey man was elected a SECOND time.
You're going to have to come up with something WAY, WAY better than that.
I'm sorry if you didn't intend it that way, I can see that you might not have. It's just such a disappointing state of affairs. The USA used to be so cool, the land of the free and all that.
Also, perhaps I've just proven your point.
#31 > The USA used to be so cool, the land of the free and all that.
... somehow I think very little has changed - only now the gloves came off.
"Airport security is there for one reason only - to show you that they can fuck with you anytime they like. As long as you put you with it. As long as you put you with it. Which means... anytime they like."
(George Carlin, "Airport Security" ca. 1998)
The politics of fear has always been around. Moisture-soaked satan-worshipping bloodthirsty commie hippie pedophiles on drugs have kept imaginations running wild ever since somebody put 2 (media & partisan politics) and 2 (military & big business) together.
@ 16
Why hasn't any other countries retaliate yet against USA by making US citizens to go through long-time-wasting forms and drills and such?
Brazil does that. Their reciprocity policy requires American citizens to go through the same hassles that Brazilian citizens go through to visit U.S. — consular interview, expensive fees ($130 for Americans, $20 for Europeans), photograph and fingerprinting at the border, and a special slow-track lane for U.S. citizens.
Needless to say, both countries are wasting a lot of money on this, innocent travelers suffer, and it's not going to make the US change their requirements. Yet somehow it's nice to see that one country has the balls to do this - and I'm tempted to visit Brazil just so I can take the fast lane at immigration and ogle at the poor American tourists being fingerprinted.
Im glad I visited the states in 99, before all this nightmarish "don´t fly to our country" laws.
I was planning to have a trip to western US ( San Francisco, Las Vegas, L.A., etc) with my soon to be wife, but when she saw all the restrictions, the fingerprints, the laptops, the random searches and all madness around she made me change all the plans and now we are thinking of going somewhere more friendly even if is more expensive.
Reciprocity should simply remind the Americans that their business people aren't needed in locales such as Brazil, India and China....you know, where there are markets that European businesses can sell to.
I love it when capitalism eats itself.
Don't love the weakness of capitalism too much, because that ecconomic model is the one that pumps the blood of democracy...and science. All we have to do is look around us to see that the modern world is very dangerous. Layers of security are installed in our lives, just like we install 'ware on our computers to help keep out the crap. Bad humans need to be kept out with firewalls, that may or may not work, but need to be beta tested to see for sure. It's not good to wait at an airport, but think about how much waiting we do on the road. Or, on the phone, waiting for a tech to help me with a question!
I wouldn't say "capitalism eats itself"... Capitalism as an economic system or an ideology hasn't taken a hit here, just the idea that Americans are its chosen people. The US is choosing isolation, while other countries merrily continue to trade with each other.
Both capitalism and democracy (or one, or the other - I don't believe in a divine link between the two) will continue to exist without the States' participation. It's just a shame to watch a nation punish itself like that.
Flipa, the United States is a representational republic, based on Democratic ideals. It is not a true democracy. We are like the Greek ideal, but better, since we include the Demos in the process.
Homeland Security guy #1: Hey there's been no incidents worth noting since 9- 11
Homeland Security guy #2: Really? guess we need to beef up security even more then huh?
Since the original terrorists they're still trying to stop entered fully legally, this won't stop the wrong sort from entering. it WILL make it more annoying for all the legitimate sorts though.
Bush can't leave the white house soon enough.
Here in the UK the two main political parties try and outdo each other on who can be the toughest when it comes to inane "security" measures. Water on a plane sir? Not with us. Lipstick madam? No sirree bob! Good luck with the democrats if they get in, I suspect, sadly, they won't be much different when it comes to ludicrous posturing. I hope, of course, that I am wrong.
So, so dumb.
Right - if a terrorist WAS stupid enough to pick an airliner as a target (when there are so many much juicier, unguarded targets lying around), he has a new option: get info on who the marshall is, identify him on the flight, and take his gun. I consider that a far likelier scenario that the marshal actually being able to do anything useful with that gun.
" America is a nation desperate to believe they remain a just and moral people even as they carry out unjust and immoral wars upon other nations. Those (far too many) Americans who lack the courage to stand up to a government gone wrong are grasping at any symbol that allows them to pretend they remain decent human beings. They won't oppose the violence in Iraq, so they scream about violence on TV. They cannot face up to the reality of torture of innocent victims so they complain about "decency" in movies. They bash gays. They demand evolution mythology replace science on the schools. They scream for the Ten Commandments to be displayed in the offices of government while blind to that government's violation of those same commandments." -Rivero
"Government is not reason,
it is not eloquence–it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and
fearful master."
– George Washington
oops...connection timed out, then post data sent.
"Oh no you're not getting off that easily. This is not a case of "Let's all think positive thoughts and everything will be well!" I totally agree with you that biting cynicism isn't going to help your cause, but you have to understand that not only the people in the US are cynical, also pretty much all of the foreigners."
Yes. I meant that people are cynical and defeatist worldwide (I am not a US citizen). I think that we need to drop the idea that any change for the better is an impossible, futile hope, before we can start to do anything to change anything.
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."- JFK
Takuan, I continue to insist that it's my government, and hold on to it, because I can see who's waiting to grab it the minute I lay it down.
Raise your hands everyone who's read The Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad. Nothing has changed since 1907.
The purpose of terrorism is to cause govenment overreaction, which turns the populace against the government. This is so fucking basic. People understood this a century ago. Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.
Note to Boing Boing: The Secret Agent is absolutely fundamental to understanding what's really going on w/r/t terrorism and government power. It's well worth a FPP.