Honda's Power of Dreams
We're pleased to announce that Honda is sponsoring three special sections of Boing Boing, called "The Power of Dreams." They feature posts about safety, the environment, and innovation. (Links go to Honda sponsored sections.)
the latest
latest episodes
Nice -- which category does the previous story go into?
Ummm....I feel kind of icky.
Hmmm.
Ditto, #2.
Hrm, last week I noticed the new banners on the side of the page and was wondering if I had somehow missed an importaint memo about the new sections.
I'm not sure how I feel about this...
no subversion category?
I always forget that I have the adblocking plug in on firefox. Apparently boingboing isn't ad free... I never knew.
"I'll give you a TKO from Tokyo!" -- Piston Honda
http://tinyurl.com/2uz46v
You'd think the universe would just dump a shitload of money into the writers' and editors' laps for being generally awesome.
Damned commercial... commercials.
At least there doesn't seem to be any "exclusive" content in those categories. That would make Baby FSM weep meatballs.
"I'll give you a TKO from Tokyo!" -- Piston Honda
That wasn't meant to be a statement for or against the sponsored pages. Who am I to demand of something I view for free that they not try and make money somehow?
Hey, I love that you cats are getting paid to do BB - if you are getting paid :), cos I love to spend time here, but, well, yeah, icky. And honda+environment in particular is well, icky^2.
Please excuse me if I also continue to use adblock-plus.
WTF? Honda, fossil fuel burners par excellence sponsoring the environment? Just cause they build one car that is a bit less polluting, hardly makes it a green company. Global warming and oil wars anyone? Wht mks t grn s 'hp' plcs lk BB wh r wllng t pddl thr prpgnd.
Sms BB r rthr sly pmpd t. Crfl r y wn't hv mch f rpttn t sll sn.
Vry dsppntng, 'll mk sr my dblck s wrkng nxt tm rtrn, lss ftn mst lkly.
Um. These aren't actually *new* sections. I mean, some items have been tagged with sections ever since the redesign, or soon after, like this:
http://www.boingboing.net/maker/
http://www.boingboing.net/civlib/
Assuming that the long-term existence of these URLs isn't actually dependent on the sponsorship, *I* have no objection to what basically amounts to the addition of an alternate navigation scheme with category specific URLs. It's just white-hat SEO, and if they get some extra advertising revenue as well, so much the better.
Rock on.
I get tired of these lame commercial interests claiming the "power of dreams". I teach seminars on the use dreaming in personal spirituality and I resent the shallowness surrounding that sacred (to me) subject. Plus...I feel icky.
Nxt wk, nw sctn Cry spnsrd by R nd TS.
To quote the immortal Ice-T, "Don't hate the playa, hate the game."
Ds Hnd rsrv th rght t dt r rfs ntrs n ts sctns? r, wrs n my pnn, ds t mn th wrtrs wll slf-cnsr? 'm srry, bt fnd t hrd t xpct n ntry bt hw th S tmtv fl stndrds cmpr t ths f thr cntrs whn cr cmpny hs sch hghly vsbl plcmnt n th st.
OMG ads on the internets
WTF world, why
Honda gave Boing Boing no guidelines. Boing Boing's editors have not corresponded with Honda about the campaign.
Honda asked Boing Boing's ad sales partner (Federated Media) to ask Boing Boing's editors (Cory, David, Xeni, and me) to tag posts that fit the categories of "safety," "innovation," and "environment."
You probably would have been better off not telling us, but thanks for the honesty.
There wouldn't be any game if there weren't playas.
Because of the reason #14 promoted, I also feel that "icky" is the best way to describe the incongruity of a corporation based on sales of internal combustion engines supporting a section on "environment" on a major site.
Explicitly, there's nothing wrong with it. Implicitly, there's a whole slew of potential problems.
Also: "The Power of Dreams"?
Fuck that with a handgun.
The approach could have been better, but thanks for telling us. Still, even if there is no hideous underhanded conspiracy, isn't this just a bit tacky? I mean....ugh.
Of all the commercial sponsors out there, why, why did you pick one that makes a good product, is reasonable with its people, isn't particularily infamous for environmental rape and doesn't immediate elicit a knee-jerk vomit reflex?? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
Go Honda!
This isn't a big deal at all guys. Stop being so offended on the internet.
Don't forget that Honda made ASIMO
-Tommy
Yeah, Honda is by almost all accounts a great employer, their CAFE is well above average, they make a reliable product, and seem to be a halfway decent corporate citizen. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH BONGBONG U NO GOOD COTOMER SEVIS oh wait, wrong site.
... and Just How Exactly is accepting ad revenue from Honda at all comparable to the RIAA and TSA? Has BoingBoing had dozens of anti-Honda rants in the past? I don't recall those.
BB, you were going to get reamed no matter what. People hate being reminded that the internet isn't free.
#25:The quality of the product is not important. They are internal combustion engines and products derived from that technology.
Not being particularly infamous does not exclude their participation in promoting devices that degrade the environment.
Immediate knee-jerk responses are by definition irrational. I am not making an irrational argument.
It still holds that Honda promote technology that is currently at odds with the environment.
Anyway.
I have NO problem with BiongBoing making money. I saw the Honda ads earlier and I supported the attention that a new big name sponsor would garner. Egads, with all the work that they've done for the anti-DRM movement and for general nuttiness in general, I salute them. And, to an extent, I find that the explicit disclosure of the sponsored sections forthright. However, these sponsored sections, in my mind and IMHO, start to converge with the content I value. This troubles me.
BoingBoing 0wnz0red by H0nda, 0H N0ES! This clearly marks the beginning of end times! Blackwater called, they want piece of yr action too! To tag posts that fit the categories of "security," "freedom," and "profiteering."
Ugh. It's not about money. It's about trust. Damn it. It's not that hard to understand why this might upset some people. Put a goddamn "Honda makes the best engines in the world!" slogan on the corner of every post, and I'd feel a little better about this. At least it doesn't seem that the line between content and content moderation could potentially be compromised.
I'm not saying that the content is compromised, it's the ambiguous *perception* of this potential that bothers me.
I might be overreacting, and I apologize.
Honda was making little four bangers for years before any North American maker pretended to care about mileage or pollution. Their motorcycles alone saved whole oceans of spilled oil compared to Harley Leakysons.
In an ideal world, do no evil. In this one, do the least evil.
@ #14 -- your loss.
@ #16 -- Huh? Anyway, as all dreams are aspirational, what's wrong with Honda aspiring to be better than it is?
@ #17 -- yep, a straw man from the devil's advocate.
As others have noted, there are much worse companies out there than Honda, for heaven's sake. Further, the only content change this could possibly have created is use of three specific tags -- which are general enough they (or some synonym) surely would have already been a part of Boing Boing. Do you honestly think that any of these editors would be persuaded to change their content solely for the benefit of an advertiser? Furthermore, the ads mean more living for the editors, and therefore, more Boing Boing! This is such a ridiculous thing to get upset about.
I couldn't tell they were sponsored, the company i work for blocks ads/spyware/malware sites at the firewall.
32, rthr sprs rgmnts - th jstfctn bng crprt mny = mr bngbng = grt. Hry! Wh crs bt nythng ls s lng s y gt yr cnsmr ht.
r w nt t thnk tht nc hkd n th ddtnl dd rvn tht BB wn't strt t slf-cnsr? r cn w xpct swth f strs bt th ntrnl cmbstn ngn, glbl wrmng r wht Hnd ws p t n WW2?
Wht's wrng wth lkng bynd yr wn prsnl ntrsts t pnt t ptntl cnflcts f ntrst, r bltnt hypcrsy f cr cmpny spnsrng th nvrnmnt sctn. nd sfty, h, crs r n f th bggst kllrs t thr.
I find that content, in my innocent mind, is the domain of the editors and contributors, and that advertisement is explicitly separated from this. The conflation worries me. I don't expect any influence from Honda on the content of BB. I will continue to come here. I just think that the perception that this gives is not a positive one, and want to defend that position.
Or, in the words of my father whenever he's worried about some remote possibility of harm befalling me, "You know, I just worry."
I'm making too much of this. But I think I've got a few valid points.
@ #34
We're all consumers when we read the site. Might not be the best argument, but I don't think it is spurious to celebrate the fact that my favorite Boing Boing editors can make a living doing what i like seeing them do.
I see what you're saying, but I don't think any company, or any person, can say anything about "supporting the environment" without it being hypocritcal -- at least not with the super-broad definition of "the environment" that is en vogue. As far as self-censorship, I guess I see no problem with the concern, but in my judgment it is not a significant risk in this context.
About safety: why do we have to read the sponsorship to mean that Honda creates "safety" in its ideal form? I'm sure all Honda is worried about is making each car safer than the last. In this context, its an admirable aspiration and one that Honda, unlike some car companies, is entitled to.
Oof, it's a bit of a drag. I know I haven't been hanging around here long enough to give an opinion, but it seems "icky" to me too. I'm an old guy who grew up in the 60s and the internets (series of pipes) have been so refreshing these past few years. A medium where any average shmo can have his/her info published to the world for (almost) free.
But I've been able to get used to the corporate sponsorships of various institutions, you know, everything has to have some company name attached to it.
But BoingBoing... brought to you by HONDA! It's ugly. What's next Nike?
Honda's intent is obvious. But their marketing department must be drunk if they think people as savvy as BB readers will react positively to such a bald-faced attempt at linking Honda's brand to nice-sounding, cushy words. It's insulting.
When I see "Honda" and "environment" together, I think of Honda's recent attempts to block stricter greenhouse gas emissions in California. I think of Honda being sued by its buyers because the mileage rates on their new cars were so much lower than normal. And I think that while Honda makes one of the two cars in the US with mileage rates higher than 40mpg, that number is falling while Europeans have a choice of over 100 models > 40mpg, up from 80-some in the same time frame.
Hey guys, these guys at boing boing have been doing this for very, very long, and we have benefited immensely from their hard labor. Why not cash in for a bit of profit? I'm sure it's not any huge sum (I'm guessing under five figures), and this website doesn't pay for itself after all. Streaming video is very expensive.
It's easy to make accusations from behind your keyboards, but I'm sure most, if not all of you would do the same thing if you had the opportunity. Think about it.
- Tim
So is
"Honda's Power of Dreams"
above the
"Woman's dream of bomb results in oil rig evacuation"
story on purpose?
I don't have so much a problem with something on the site being sponsored; that's nothing new. You guys have expenses, especially with BBtv, and you deserve to profit from your labors. What gives me pause is that it's a sponsorship of something that doesn't add value to the site, just does something that's always really been there. Also, it asks us to associate Honda with those concepts that are pinned on posts that have nothing to do with Honda. Granted, a sponsorship of anything, from TV to magazines to the net, has an implicit approval and association on both sides of the bargain; the problem here is that whatever is being linked to in those tagged entries have no say about tacitly advertising for Honda with their work. It may even create conflicts with endorsements they have accepted.
While Mark's message is assuring, the couple of people who think self-censorship isn't an issue when accepting money from a corporation in the middle of an image campaign obviously haven't worked with, well, corporations in the middle of an image campaign. I have, and the pressure can be huge. And while BB isn't the BBC, a lot of people read it, and BB does have a history of looking at some touchy issues. I appreciate Mark's (et al's) forthrightness and hope they don't feel that pressure too badly.
@ #37:
BB had Nike ads up a couple of months ago, maybe as much as a year. I sent off an email to the editors voicing some of the concerns that people have mentioned in this thread (perceived conflict of ideology, editorial independence) and never got a response. That said, it hasn't driven me away from BB. Take from that what you will.
Boing Boing should only have ads from non-profit hemp farmers
My comment ballooned into a letter.
http://orphanarmy.com/blingbling_2008-02-11/
Dear Boing Boing,
Yours is one of a few blogs I read with regularity. It’s filled with wonderful posts by a great group of writers, inventors, and tech geeks who have good hearts and great minds.
Today, when I went to the site to decompress and catch up on my wacky internet news, I ran into a disturbing post about special sections of Boing Boing sponsored by Honda’s “Power of Dreams” campaign.
As a reader, I find this level of advertising embarrassing. It’s worse than having a flood of subscription cards douse my joy each time I open a new issue of WIRED.
I can understand that you need advertising to help cover bandwidth costs and pay for your time but it can and should be done tastefully and with respect to your audience.
The IT ROOM was bad. You endorsed a blatant corporate ripoff of the IT CROWD. It was like Ben Cohen going to work as a huckster for Western Family Ice Cream.
I think this latest advertising venture is worse. You’re mixing your posts with specific advertisements, again from big business with deep pockets. Reading the comments on your site it appears that I’m not alone in worrying. Is money starting to control the show? Will this lead to intentional and unintentional poisoning of your content?
I think you’re all smart enough to avoid the obvious pitfall here and I hope you’ve had a good long discussion about your revenue streams and where to draw the line when an advertiser walks into the room with a sack of cash. Boing Boing is successful beyond imagining and has earned its success by steadily building respect and reputation.
For each of you, Boing Boing has brought great attention to your personal projects and has increased your value as speakers, consultants, artists, and journalists. I have some idea of what that must mean for your personal finances.
It seems to me that in the long run you would most benefit by maintaining good faith with your audience and keeping Boing Boing free from dubious advertisements.
All my best,
Pat Race
Dear Everyone who wants an Ad-Free BoingBoing:
Send Money.
@44: You persist in missing the point. No one is advocating an ad-free BoingBoing. The concern is about the nature of the advertising, the advertiser, and how the ad relationship can pressure the writers and commenters. Your comment is a straw man.
@#44 - I don't think anyone here has a problem with BB running ads. The argument is the type of ads and the "special sections" that they will be sponsoring.
"The Power of Dreams"? Eww.
I can understand the need for cash, but this is a bit annoying. And I'm really trying to imagine a BoingBoing "Safety" post... A steampunk helmet or something??
Whatever, carry on. The Internet isn't free.
P.S. If we're stuck with "The Power of Dreams" can we at least get some animated sparkles in the header?
#45, if they had better offers from better companies I'm sure they'd take them
Am I the only one who linked "The Power of Dreams" up with the old "The Power of Nightmares" series on the BBC about 3 years ago?
Dear Everyone who Wants an Ethical-Ad Laden BpingBoing:
Send Good Sponsors
Honda must compete in the US market. Like it or not, if they fail here in the US the company folds. And the US market drives their auto design. The >40mpg type cars sold in Europe will not sell here - the US market is too horsepower hungry.
They have the highest fleet mileage of any American auto vendor, outstanding reliability (read less cars in landfills, fewer junked parts, tires, and fewer repair bills for me).
We cannot now or in the very near future completely dispose of internal combustion engines. There is no feasible alternative infrastructure, and battery technology is not yet ready.
Oh yes, and if you don't like commercials or corporate sponsorship, God Bless You in All You Do, and i have two sticks you can rub together.
Until the day we can obtain a safe, reliable, electric car recharged by solar or wind power, if you have to have a personal automobile, consider this: all indy 500 engines for the last three years have been Honda engines - without a single engine failure. My v6 Accord - a nice big cushy luxury car - gets 30mpg hiway. And the mpg ratings for ALL vehicles have been lowered - the gov't changed the calculations to better reflect real world mpg estimates, not just Honda.
I support this company for their extreme high quality products, even if their marketing department might be a little tasteless.
http://orphanarmy.com/wp-content/sketches/dreams.gif
y clrly frgt tht mrk wrkd t wrd drng ts tchn-fntsst, lbrtrn phs.
Honestly, I want to see more articles in these areas anyway. I don't care if someone has to stick a "sponsored by" or an ad next to them so I can see them. It's better than not having the articles at all. Or having the site fold, if they can't pay their bills.
@52: jst hd Ls Frnk flshbck.
i wonder... will the cryptids be tagged in the environment section?
I demand to see the "sponsored by GOP" sections.
Oh wait, here it is...
Boing Boing GOP SECTION
LOL, I'm sure the GOP will pay handsomely.
BTW grousers - what are you driving?
oh and the "Dream" reference goes way way back with this company - the Honda 'Dream' was a groundbreaking motorcycle from the 1960's, probably the first successful Japanese cycle to be marketed in the US. And who doesn't like groundbreaking Japanese motorcycles!!!
Honda has always been a technology leader, and who here doesn't like technology.
I like technology. And computers.
Mmmm, tht's gd sllt.
Dear Everyone who Wants what THEY think is an Ethical-Ad Laden, earth friendly, solar/wind powered, recyclable, informed, perfumed BoingBoing:
Get your own website.
ANDL: what are you driving?
DALASY: I like this company. I wish I worked for this company. Their products have served me extremely well, are one of the highest quality products of any kind available today.
knw vryn nds t py th blls fr ll thr Jpns mnstr tys nd Cp tshrts nd rdclsly xpnsv gdgts. Bt, yh, nywy, f ws Bng Bng wrtr wh rlly crd bt th nvrnmnt nd lss cnsmptn drvn cltr wld try t blnc ll ths nw ds wth sm PS's lk stryfstff.cm.
Th cr ndstry nd th cmptr ndstry sm t b tw f th wrst n trms f "prcvd nd plnnd bslscnc." Th prblm s t s hrd t hv ds fr sd gds r ds fr nt byng stff y dn't rlly nd.
Bt yh, kcy nd nt srprsng nd cn't blm 'm. W'r dmd.
It's not being advertised on, it's the content and choice of company that's the problem. The way PR works (I know because I do it) is you take your negatives and claim the exact opposite.
Safety. Car accidents are the leading cause of death for 15-24 yr olds in America. This is an obscene choice of word. See how Danger fits better?
http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/111riskd.html
Environment. This one is so damn obvious. In the 14 years to 2004, American CO2 emissions from transport rose 26.7%. Pollution definitely fits better.
http://climate.dot.gov/transemiss.html
Innovation. So Karl Benz got the first car up and running in 1885, and 123 years later the basic technology - burning petrol - is unchanged. The greenhouse effect was first discovered by Fourier in 1824, but we're still burning petrol to move around? I'd say No Innovation.
Make it stop. Just make it stop. The Ben and Jerry reference above is spot on.
I agree with #51, except I don´t drive an accord (and a V6 is never needed in Santiago, Chile).
Gas prices here are close to $6 a gallon, which means that most cars are NOT from the US. In this sense, you see very old Hondas making their way through traffic and passing all emission control tests (which are stringent because the mountains around the city give us a bad air circulation).
Public transit? Just Google "Transantiago" (AKA transfiasco, transdisaster).
I love BB, and I´m sure the editors will keep their independence (even if it means loosing the Honda sponsorship)
I'm in agreement with license farm upthread. Bandwith and creating content costs money, ad revenues make the site possible and profitable. But this is very hinky advertising to me. It's not the simple banner ad or even an pop-up, it's integrating content and advertisement in a way that blurs the line between the two. Right now the banner at the top mixing Honda and BB ("a directory of deviceful things"....ewww) is just plain off-putting.
I'm an adult and I read things with a critical eye even from trusted sources. I have to say though, this ad deal (with a Car company that does not offer domestic partner benefits for GLBT employees to boot) has really eroded my trust in BB as a source.
I had nothing to do with this campaign whatsoever—I didn't even know it was coming until I saw the ads on the site—but I have to say that I was happy to see Honda sponsoring BB. They have a long tradition of innovative, bullet-proof engineering. Plus they build robots. (Although what Japanese multi-corp doesn't?)
Because this isn't my neck of the woods I'll refrain from saying what I really want to say, but I'm surprised how, uh, disconnected from the outside world many people in this thread seem to be. I know it may seem like a blog is this mysterious black box which must contain all sorts of wheelings and dealings and long, labored editorial meetings, but mostly it's just people doing what they've been doing for years, which is to write about stuff they find interesting.
Really, of all the car companies to take umbrage at! I have a greater admiration for Honda than most, but they make a solid product. I grew up around the time when tuners were first getting Civics to run sub-10-second quarter-mile slips; that wouldn't have been possible without precision manufacturing from Honda.
And if you're up in armchairs about the fact they make internal combustion engines, you better be posting from a yurt in the middle of your communal farm, because even if you don't drive (like me!) you're still getting most of your goods delivered to the local store inside gas-puffing trucks. Respecting the work of a company that continues to find ways to wrangle more power out of less fuel doesn't preclude awareness of our environmental crisis as a whole.
I'll go back to my corner now. This was hard to type while shaking my fist at the screen.
Mark Etc,
I don't see why you BoingBoing types don't understand: You should provide free high-value content to your readers and never, ever take money from any advertiser that might be objectionable to any of your readers.
As you know, every single person who reads this blog works for free and survives on the scraps they find in the trash, so there is no reason that the BoingBoing editors should not be reduced to a subsistence life-style.
In the 21st century it is not enough to feed your readers eyeballs with juicy and nutrient-rich content, you must abstain from ever, ever exposing any readers eyeballs to anything even slightly objectionable.
It's the new, New Economy -- the one where we all starve to death but get to be so goddamn smug about it.
-- SCAM
Hear, hear, Joel.
Hear, hear, Joel.
And if it offends anyone, download Firefox and install Adblocker Plus.
Or leave.
So does this mean BB readers all get free Hondas? I'll take mine in black, thanks.
I use adblock+ and didn't know anything about this, and I'm sort of surprised more readers aren't using that too, actually. It's extremely effective and free (as in beer) (and as in boingboing, for that matter).
SimpleHuman @65 says, "creating content costs money".
But how much were they paid for creating that content?
This is what I think bothers people about being notified that <Faceless MegaCorp Inc> is "sponsoring" parts of a site that is the focus of an online community. People suddenly stop feeling like members of a community and start feeling like what they are, which is a commodity.
Personally, I have no problem with this. I see the nicely accumulated eyeballs of the community, which is made possible by the hard work of the editors and the deep pockets of their sponsors, as a pre-assembled audience that I get to polemicise at. That makes me some kind of second-order free-loader, assuming that my sporadic, relatively lengthy and often over-earnest polemics aren't a significant draw for readers. I get an audience and the site maintainers get nothing in return.
So, by reading this far, you've been exploited in all kinds of ways: by the eeeevil sponsors of BoingBoing and their cuddly team of crypto-corporate-shills, and by me. The fun part is that if you've read this far, I'm getting exploited right back. It's like a reputation economy, only without the reputation.
Lol - I swear I hadn't seen WHOKNEW's post when I posted mine. Eerie - we even punctuated it the same.
Guys, let's all just chill out and remember that for better or worse, Honda commissioned one of the most awesome ads of the decade:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB_1gPRCLCo
Joel:
I think I take some umbrage at the tone of your comments. People in this thread are questioning how this advertisement program is going to further blur the line between content and commerce.
The same kind of questions that BB has often asked of other sites and organizations.
I think it does make me question the agenda and tone of posts on this site more. The same way I'd be leary of my local newspaper reporting on organized labor issues while taking in huge ad revenues from Wal-Mart circulars.
One of the real unpleasant aspects of modern culture has been the acceptance of advertising, product placement and rampant schilling as simply a matter of course. Is there going to be a chilling effect on BB? Too soon to tell, but frankly it would not surprise me at this point.
@74: Well said.
yep
http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/12/news/companies/gm/index.htm?cnn=yes
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LOL . . . just something more for the BB crowd to complain about. Forget about enjoying witty posts and learning about interesting sites, it seems a majority of BB readers come here to flex their internet muscles and complain, complain, complain. What evil corporation will sponsor BB next? Wal-mart?
#74 said:
I think the answer to that questioning is apparent if anyone actually looks at the content instead of dreaming up worst-case scenarios.f wb prjct lk Bng Bng cn't xst wtht sllng ts mg t th hghst crprt bddr, prhps Bng Bng s nt vbl prjct. ch bt f dvrtsng nd crprt nvlvmnt crrpts prjct bt mr, nd pst crtn pnt th prjct cn nd p dng mr hrm thn gd, mrly prvdng cnvnnt hp, dgy mg fr n stblshmnt mssg.
S ftn th " gt t gt pd" xcs s trttd t t jstfy qstnbl prctcs. "Ys, myb ths cmprmss r ntgrty, bt w d nd t mk mny - f thr's nthr wy w'r ll rs!" sms t b th gnrl sntmnt.
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t lst thn thr's th pssblty fr mr prncpld nd ndpndntly fnnclly slvnt prjcts t tk p th Bng Bng trch, s t spk.
I love how hypocritical people can be.
Honda ruins the environment? What about that computer you're using? That didn't grow on a tree, it grew in a Chinese factory that spews pollutants 24x7. In contrast, Honda was the first manufacturer to meet the clean air act of 1970, and the first to introduce a gas/electric hybrid to the US market. The litigation concerning the lower than expected mileage was actually due to the way mileage estimates are calculated (it's all done on paper, not with actual testing) and as a result the EPA changed how estimates were calculated, lowering numbers for all hybrids.
Honda kills people? Anything going 60mph is a death trap. Honda was the first to put 4-wheel steering in a passenger vehicle, the first Japanese automaker to use airbags, and the first manufacturer to put an airbag on a motorcycle. Honda also recently built a huge new crash test facility where they can study collisions occurring from any angle, as well as human/vehicle collisions. Honda wants their name associated with safety because they actively try to make something inherently dangerous as safe as possible.
It's so easy for every dipshit with an internet connection to criticize everything that rubs them the wrong way. How many of you that don't hesitate to cast insults are actually doing more than just whining and complaining? Who here that has a problem with Honda is an automotive engineer? Who's got a viable alternative to internal combustion in the works? Who's figured out how to take a body from 60-0mph in less than a second and keep ligaments from bisecting vital organs? Anyone actually part of the solution, or are you all just blindly casting insults from the comfort of your home/apartment/office filled with organic fair-trade consumer bullshit.
I pollute, I waste, I endanger, and I appreciate the efforts of those companies that help me keep those things to a minimum.
I hope the sponsorship continues. I'd rather read articles on automotive innovation than more book promotions (now available in sanscrit!) and misinformation (TOR = anonymity = security?).
And just a note to #34, Honda wasn't even established until after WWII, so...wtf?
I find the corporation of certain keywords fairly Orwellian. I mean, this isn't just advertising, this is the hard-linking of concepts to brand. This kind of stuff used to take huge campaigns to establish.
Thanks, interweb!
Honda creates an entire line of highly unsafe, environmentally unsound products for which it attempts to shift responsiblity onto the consumer, just like some other wonderful corporate citizens. These are the good guys?
"an engineer who worked for General Motors Corp. and Nissan Corp. between 1971 and 1994. He has testified about the safety of roof designs and seat belts for GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota and Mazda and Isuzu in addition to Honda."
I don't care for the ways some people use ATVs either, but trying to link Honda to big tobacco?
Just like to add my support for Honda here, an innovative company more than most in real and physical world that is always developing asnd advancing... It always amazes me when people complain bitterly about the smallest of principles without stopping to consider the bigger ones..... any company that sponsors positive development in our world gets my vote.
Th mnstrm md hs lng snc bn c-ptd by rthr bltnt crprt ntrsts. Ths sn't cnsprcy, ts smpl fct. S mch gs nrprtd r ndr-rprtd bcs t wn't sll d rvn. Wh wnts t rd bt txc chmcls n Fm trlrs whn w cn st p pdphl stng nd d hg nmbrs!
Tht's why ltrntv md bcm th mnstrm fr s mny. Trnng wy frm th "Ntwrk" styl nnsns nd fndng "wndrfl thngs" nln.
S t s tht th crp n f dvr-tnmnt nd crprt cptn s s dshrtnng. W wtchd nws trn nt ns n brdcst nd cbl. thnk t's vry vld t qstn nd b cncrn bt th trnd cntnng hr.
@ #82:
How can you blame Honda for "creating an unsafe" product when the people operating them are operating them in such an unsafe manner? Why were the parents allowing a 7 year old and an 11 year old ride an ATV like that? Most of those vehicles have warnings about the minimum age of the rider/operator. In some cases I believe there's actually laws regulating how old someone has to be to operate one of those things. It's like saying bananas are a dangerous product because someone might slip on a banana peel and break their leg.
I read magazines with tobacco advertisements.
gr wth wht thrs hv sd n tht ths wll hv chllng ffct n BngBng. t dsn't mttr f Hnd ddn't st ny dtrl gdlns r nt -- bcs Hnd pd thm, th dtrs wll fl, ncnscsly r thrws, blgtd t cnsr thmslvs whn Hnd's ntrsts r thrtnd. Wll w s strs syng crs rn't rlly tht bd fr th nvrnmnt? Will Teresa start disemvoweling anti-Honda comments now?t's hrd t sy wht frm ths nw nflnc wll tk, bt ths bth sm t b plsbl n ths nw clmt.
Ths s cmmnty -- nt jst bcs f th cmmntrs, bt ls bcs sm f s prvd thm wth ntrstng lnks nd cntnt. Wht wll hppn t sm f tht sr-sbmttd cntnt nw tht ths dl s n plc? mgn nythng tht cld b prcvd s hrtng Hnd wll fnd tslf tht mch clsr t th cttng rm flr. f tht hppns, th cmmnty wll sffr.
d fl lk cmmdty -- pr f ys wth wllt. nd tht's bd thng, bcs thght th dtrs hr hd mr rspct fr thr rdrs thn tht. Gss ws wrng.
Mrk, Jl, Xn, Cry -- cngrtltns, y'v ll jst bcm sllts. cngrtlt y n hldng t fr ths lng. Bt nw y r tntd n my ys.
Tainted. You know what you have to do. Just try not to get it all over the ceiling.
Ths sn't bt BngBng's nd fr fndng nd pychck.
t sn't bt whthr r nt Hnd s rlbl cmpny.
Th prblm hr s th cncpt. Th fct tht BngBng s wllng t cmprms ts rdrs' trst by ntrng nt cntrct s fll f bltnt prpgnd; smthng tht hs lwys bn ky ss fr BngBng t spk t gnst.
nd nstllng n d-blckr s lghbl cr, s gnrng prblm sldm mks t g wy.
K, cngrts wth th dl. Nw thr's n thng lwys wndrd - hw d y spll SLLT?
Wll, nthng wrng wth gd ld dgh, spps - nxt p wll b spnsrshps frm Mcrsft, MP nd th R?
"contract so full of blatant propaganda;"
Alleged. Expand. Demonstrate.
vn th ttl f ths pg s mkng m gg.
Hr's smthng pln t d, y'll my r my nt jn m, bt 'm nvr gn gng t sggst lnk wtht n xplct sttmnt tht t shldn't b sd n Hnd pg.
nd t ll th "jz, vryn pllts nd drvs cr" crwd, knw wht y'd b dng whn dcttrshp rlls rnd nxt. Rllng vr. Jst syn'.
Mark Etc,
How dare you SELL OUT?!? After all the money we've sent to you?1? After religiously reading your content, you stab us in the back by daring to engage in commerce!?
If you had to have a sponsor, why didn't you choose a sponsor that no one would complain about? Like Sunshine, Lollipops and Unicorns?
What?
Oh yeah -- too much sunshine can give you skin cancer, so that is out. And loli's will rot out your teeth and make you fat. So no lollipop sponsorship either. And Unicorns are clearly a gratuitously phallic tribute to thousands of years of male hegemony...
But I'm sure that there is someone, somewhere, who is 1) willing to give money to this site, and 2) incapable of offending any of your hypocritically hypersensitive morally vigilant readers!
-- SCAM
Tkn,
Lnkng kywrds lk >sfty, >nnvtn nd >nvrnmnt t Hnd; tht's prpgnd.
Hear, hear, err, wait -- LOL :)
But seriously, the sellout crowd is taking this way, way too far. If this is selling out, then I would have to go back to Joel's point -- only those in Yurts, or tipis, or igloos, for that matter, are not sellouts in this world. Somewhere in the supply chain of most of the things you depend on in your cushy modern life has something that is bad for the environment, safety as an ideal form, and communal living (what did I leave out . . . poetry?)
My dearest hope is the Cory and Mark and Xeni et al are able to get as many good laughs out of these baseless rants as they deserve -- along with the Honda money.
Nxt n ln: "Hlth", spnsrd by Phlp Mrrs?
Hw mch ds t cst t by "trth"?
Scry t thnk tht w cn nw st dllr mnt fr tht.
(Ths cmmnt spnsrd by Hnd)
Honda has a vested interest in safety,innovation and the environment. Especially with so many watching them. Call me back when you have video of the secret death camps.
Conspiracy? Sellouts? Betrayal of trust?
This is worse than the story of the Little Red Hen. Everyone wants all their favorite sites to grow and increase readership and stick around for years to come, but nobody wants to pony up any support. Then they strike a deal with what is arguably one of the most responsible auto manufacturers on the planet, and everyone just wants to bitch and moan, oblivious to the epic amounts of materials and electricity it takes just to give them a soapbox to shout from.
Here's an idea for all those truly opposed to this move: turn off your computer, unplug it, and donate it to a cause you support. Cancel your Internet service and never turn back. Congratulations, you just saved Earth and your dignity by actually committing to something. Or you can just sheepishly show back up at the same time tomorrow to see what news you missed, because that's the kind of spineless, cause-of-the-week evangelist you know you are.
mjr crprtn wnts t cnsmrs t ccpt th brndng tht Hnd prdcts r sf, gd fr th nvrnmnt, nd nnvtv.
Hnd hs dcdd t prmt ths brndng by hvng Bng Bng sblmnlly cnnct Hnd t ths 3 thngs, s whn smn ss pst n sfty, thy thnk Hnd, nd s n.
cn't s hw Bng Bng bng "plsd" t b prt f ths s nythng BT sllng t.
knw th flks t BB gtt mk mny, bt t wld b nc t s t LST n wbst hld thmslvs t hghr stndrd whn t cms t dvrtsng.
It's distressing to see how simplistic many "Happy Mutants" are in their thinking.
Mark Etc,
You're missing the point: Boing-Boing readers are sheep. If you allow Honda to sponsor the posts tagged as "safety," "the environment" and "innovation," we will mindlessly be compelled to permanently and irrevocably associate "safety," "the environment" and "innovation" with the Honda corporation.
How could you presume that your readers were in any way capable of critical thinking? How could you believe that we could think for ourselves? How could you doubt that we would be instantly and eternally incapable of viewing the words "safety," "the environment" and "innovation" without thinking of Honda?
I used to think you guys were cool, but now I know you're just a bunch of CORPORATE SELL OUTS like Wilco, our high school drama instructor and my mom's new boyfriend!
-- SCAM
Honda, the evil corporation that sells ULEV vehicles in all 50 United States without any state-specific fees. Honda, the engine company that can get a 260hp sedan running 25mpg on average.
Whatever corruption Honda brings to the BB scene will be offset by the BB scene influencing Honda.
Maybe they want unconventional feedback.
Srsly, t ths ppsd t th ppsd:
t's nt tht w dn't wnt BngBng t hv spprt r t grw. dn't thnk tht ny f s hv prblm wth bnnr ds nd th lk. t's smthng BngBng hs bn dng fr whl nw s t s, nd s mch s w ll ht ds w d knw tht th ntrnt sn't fr. W lv ths st, nd wnt t t thrv, s w dl wth t.
Hwvr ths >s crssng crtn bndry. ln whr th ds stp bng n rrttng blck f txt n th sdlns t bcmng drctly ntrwvn wth th cntnt tslf.
ls, 'm wllng t bt tht f thr ws n ptn t dnt sm mnt f mny t BngBng tslf, lrg nmbr f s wld b vrtrnng r pcktbks.
I see all before me. I process. I remain.
Before the words were on a screen, I sifted the print.
I was not fooled then.
I am not fooled now.
Hey chill out, Honda wants to advertise on BoingBoing. that means all that we have been reading and agreeing with and in my case trying to explain to uninterested others for years, just became a little more mainstream. We are winning.
Mtnt stts tmprrly rvkd.
TheFirstMan, put a sock in it. AndI, you can use the other sock of that pair. Grey, try the odd sock drawer. I swear, the amount of hand-wringing what-iffing "concern"-driven hot air coming off this thread could power a midsize generator. For instance ...
Grey (19): No kidding? You can't imagine not being bought by an ad or two? Do you really think everyone in ad-driven media is that corrupt -- and that cheap? If you ever decide to sell out, you'll be a real bargain.
Takuan (25): good one.
TheFirstMan (30):
Yes, it's the perception. Which is yours. Yes, you're overreacting. And I'd think better of your apology if you weren't continuing to do exactly the same thing in subsequent comments -- for instance, in #35, where you then piously add, "I'm making too much of this."Yeah, you are, and you know it. You just don't want to stop doing it. You say you "just worry." No kidding? Try doing some thinking at the same time. It produces much better results.
For instance: Mark, Cory, Xeni, and David publish a constant stream of fast-moving articles. What do you imagine they live on while they do it?
Now think further: there's more than one way to make money off a weblog.
Here's one: you can take bribes to run stories you wouldn't otherwise run. They use other terms for it, of course.
Here's another: the blogger(s) can be employed by institutions with an interest in the subject. This one's subtle: their use of company time and resources to produce their weblog can be entirely unacknowledged.
More blatantly, the entire operation can be sponsored by uncredited donors and organizations that expect it to promote certain interests and ideologies. (There's at least one middling-prominent weblog I've long suspected is run on this basis.)
You know what about advertising and sponsorship? It's open. It's visible. It straightforwardly is what it is. It's also the model that's supported most of the general-interest public media for centuries.
Sure, some writers and sites run on voluntary donations. Few of them make a living wage doing it. Do you demand that those who inform and/or entertain you receive a pittance for their work? Shall we go back to the days of amateurs and martyrs? Because historically speaking, that's the way it's tended to work. You get intermittent good writing from people who enjoy independent incomes, and a steady stream of writing, some of it good, from writers who are busy working themselves to death.
There are worse things, less egalitarian things, than mercantile societies. I don't regret living in one. Advertising is one of its mechanisms.
AndI (34), I disemvowelled comment #34 because it was so stupid that I couldn't stand having to look at it one more time.
Jake0748 (37), see above. And is this the first time you've noticed sponsorships on Boing Boing? Hewlett-Packard sponsored the relaunch of comments here, and have asked nothing in return.
Grey (38): so basically, nothing Honda says is going to be good enough for you? If so, I can't think you're going to like anything said by the other car manufacturers.
Me, I can't think it's treason to give Honda encouragement to go greener.
Grey again (41):
Don't do BB any favors. They don't need your understanding or forgiveness for sins they haven't committed. There is no pressure from advertisers. Federated Media (sales dept.) comes up with offers of ad campaigns from prospective advertisers. They ask the boingers whether they want to run it. They say yes or no. And that's the end of it.Just so you know: Boing Boing turns down major advertising campaigns on principle. Federated Media doesn't argue when they do. They're not the only FM author/site that does it, either. The specifics aren't mine to tell, but it most assuredly happens.
StridentLobster (42), the boingers are editorially independent.
Specialist (51), my beloved '88 Honda Civic Hatchback ran intrepidly for fourteen years, until some drunk @#$%! in an SUV did a hit-and-run on it late at night while it was parked on a Brooklyn sidestreet. He hit it so hard that its nose was driven under the car in front of it, and the backs of both seats were porcupine-quilled with flying splinters of broken glass, driven straight in. Nevertheless, when I went to move the poor thing to a parking lot next morning, preparatory to scrapping it, it started up just like it always did. I burst into tears. It was such a good little car: sure-footed, reliable, with excellent gas mileage.
The environmental movement in the United States would be miles ahead of where it is now if it weren't burdened with churlish purists who have a bad word for everything that falls short of their own personal counsels of perfection.
Tom (71), how much do you make a year? What do you spend it on? Can we please see documentation on that?
SimpleHuman (74):
Oh, bug off. Boing Boing's been running ads for years, and I wouldn't bet a nickel that the boingers remember more than a fraction of them, much less feel any sense of continuing obligation to the advertisers. If you're so worried, go away and read some other weblog. And1's, perhaps -- it subsists on donations, though it's advertising for more lucrative sponsors. Grey (75), you can bug off with 'em.Andrew M. (88): No, just dumb ones.
...
Yo, Mark? I'm sorry. I ran out of patience. I also ran out of responses to the commenters who were competing to one-up each other with the high-mindedness of their own beliefs by bemoaning their increasingly exaggerated versions of The Corruption of Boing Boing.
These guys have no idea how much effort it takes to "pressure" all the boingers to be on a conference call at the same time. The idea that you're all going to keep track of every advertisement, and follow some kind of party line on stories that affect them, is more unimaginable than they can imagine.
imagine that. I had a 72 hatchback, that ran for fourteen years.
Anyways; need a new word, need it fast,..... bribe,...pay...,..play....payola....playola...
!!!! BLOGOLA !!!! tah dah! (and it kinda sounds like bologna.
So, what did in your '72 hatchback?
uh... there's this stuff called "oil" apparently....
I remember the mechanic shaking his head in astounded admiration while holding what used to be a camshaft. (No it wasn't me, I know where the filler cap is)At the time it didn't seem worth an engine. I am SUCH an idiot.
Ow. It's a bad moment when you lift the hood and see shards of bright metal.
And the icing on the cake is that I'm now getting anonymous messages accusing me of disemvowelling comments at Boing Boing's advertisers' behest. I have added the authors of these opinions to my mental category of "People who never go anywhere without a palm card that says
INHALE!
(over)
on one side, and
EXHALE!
(over)
on the other, lest they absentmindedly forget to breathe."
(meanwhile, back at Honda's secret headquarters, deep under the muddy waters of Tokyo Bay, The Chairman smirks evilly and raises a pinky to the corner of his mouth....)
I'm just completely lost as to what the chicken littles are even responding to. The more they type, the less I understand. It's like they're speaking anti-language that somehow removes thoughts from my head. Is there a hole in my skull, through which they're sucking my IQ out?
Teresa@118: How DARE you! I use an MP3 player to tell me how to breathe, thank you very much! [/snark]
That said, I will admit that I was a bit hasty in saying you all were tainted. My thinking on that comment was less than clear.
But campaigns like this still make me wary. And if this deal with Honda isn't a "major ad campaign", what is?
As for the disemvowelling -- well, I walked right into that one. But calling people like me names for voicing concerns about an ad campaign that received little explanation is childish. If Mark had said something to the effect of, "before anyone gets upset, this isn't going to affect anything we post or not post here", I would have been satisfied with that. Instead, there was silence.
Don't get me wrong, I like BB and its writers. But things like this ought to be handled better.
Trs:
Tht ws rlly nsltng nd mmtr rspns t ppl rsng lgtmt qstns. Sm ppl wr tkng t s th pclyps f cnsmrsm, bt lt f flks rsd prfctly vld pnts nd cncrns.
gn, th srt f qstns tht bngbng sks f thr sts nd srvcs n rgrds t thr plcs ll th tm.
fr n dn't thnk y'r gng t b dtng psts fr cntnt r dltng "nt-hnd" psts.
Bt cmng n nd syng "Wll f y dn't lk t, bg ff." sn't prdctv r vn n pnt. lk ths st qt bt.
'm dn cmmntng thgh. Yr mdrtn jst crssd th ln frm jdcs nd pstv t th ngng cnvrstn nt smthng hvy-hndd. Tht's shmfl.
rd n th dvct bt hw mdrtr ws brght n hr ftr th rlntlss hmphbc trllng n ths blg. 'v hd t pt p my shr f trlls, s tht dcsn s smthng cn gt bhnd 100%.
'm nt tryng t trll. wsn't tryng t gt rs t f my cmmnts. wsn't tryng t tk jb bcs my "sns f nttlmnt" ws wndd.
'v bn lng-tm rdr f ths blg bt 'v bn rlctnt t sgn p ntl tdy bcs f wht prcv s th hvy-hnddnss f th mdrtr.
stnd by my pnn tht thnk th Hnd dl s sllng t. plgz tht dn't hv th wrtng sklls t sy tht n wy tht wn't gt m jdgd s sm srt f trll.
f hvng crtcl pnn tht sn't wrdd t th mdrtr's tst sn't llwd, fn. f th wrd "sllt" s cnsdrd n ths blg s ffnsv nd th rsn th dsmvwlng ws nvntd, fn. Yr st, yr rls, rght?
wn't wst ny mr f yr tm cnsrng my cmmnts by wstng my tm wrtng thm. 'll tk yr dvc nd fnd smwhr ls t g.
Hv dy.
Jst t wst fw mr mmnts f r tm snc 'm lrdy hr:
gd mdrtr wld hv gnrd ths ngry mssgs r ddrssd thm n prfssnl mnnr.
Tkng th tm t pnt t hw ths ppl r t stpd t brth, n mttr hw wll wrttn, s mmtr nd shws lck f clss.
Nn f th cmmnts sw tht ndd p bng dsmvwld wr s rd s tht pst ws.
ftr hvng sffrd dsmvwllmnt fr rsns tht cldn't b lss clr, nd ftr bng nsltd bsds, th nly thng lft t sy s LLZ! Cn hs nw mdrtr?
Yr clrly tszd g mks y pr chc fr mdrtng ny st, bt ths n n prtclr. Y rlly ght t plgz fr yr ptlnc, r stp dwn.
Ths s shmfl mmnt fr Bng Bng.
VD: "Your clearly outsized ego makes you a poor choice for moderating any site, but this one in particular. You really ought to apologize for your petulance, or step down."
Boing-Boing's "Shocking Lack of Introspection Contest" is over -- we have a winner!
Y knw, rgrdlss f wh's rght nd wh's wrng ( prsnlly thnk t's rdcls t frk t bt bnnr d n th ntrnt), cnsrng th psts f ppl wh wr smply xprssng thr cncrns sms rlly hystrcl nd chldsh.
I had an '88 Prelude that I loved dearly. Best visibility and handling of any car I've ever been in. I felt really bad because I got my '80 280zx and wanted to park it in the driveway, so I left the Prelude on the street. Torrential rain came and even though I moved her to higher ground, it was too late. Clutch rusted shut, water and mold everywhere. To it's credit though, it still started once I put in a fresh battery, it just wouldn't keep running if you let off the gas. Now she rests with the Kidney Foundation.
Seriously: why are my posts being nuked simply because I happen to disagree with your methods?
mn t's nt lk clld y dmnrng cnt r nythng
bye bye "MILES", not going to miss you
Miles, if you can't distinguish between calling me "hysterical and childish," and saying that you "happen to disagree with my methods," you're beyond any help I can possibly give you.
Awwwwwwwwwww, Miles used the Magic Word that's supposed to Infallibly Defeat Women In Arguments, and all it did was make me snicker.
Poor Miles! Bye-bye, Miles!
gods! I hate the unimaginative!
Ahh, this sort of thing always brings out the best in people. Well, assuming "best" means "most unwilling to admit bad judgment."
I guess people think they should be able to bait and insult you (and others) all they want? Even thinking about it is making me feel the intelligence drain again. It's like YouTube commenters somehow learned to type in whole sentences.
I do not envy your job here, Teresa. It might occasionally be enjoyable to hit the "bye bye" button, though.
DCulberson, that button has been hit. Whether or not the magic word got the reaction out of me that Miles intended, the fact remains that he intended it. There are other pertinent facts as well.
Guys like Miles have one epithet and two pseudo-jokes (neither funny) whose entire functional meaning is, "You are female, and I think that saying this to you will make you break down and cry." I got to see some screen shots of the pages that were put up to harass Kathy Sierra a while back, and they scored three out of three on that scale.
I won't say this isn't a tough job sometimes. Would you believe I honestly think I'm helping to make the world a better place?
Wht gnnly pthtc trck, Trs - t cnsr cmmnt, nd thn prphrs t n slf-srvng fshn.
wsn't cncldng "t f thn r" tht Bng Bng s "rrdmbly crrpt", bt 'm nw ndr th mprssn tht y prsnlly r rrdmbly bd t wht y d, nd blly. nd th r, sch s t s, s nw qt thck wth yr stnk, thnks. f ths s wht t s t b Hppy Mtnt, 'll gldly cst my lt wth th "p-flngng mnkys".
hp y t lst xtnd t Mrk, Xn, Dvd, nd Cry th pprtnty t rd ths thrd n ts ntrty.
what is it with people these days that they have no sense of style? Remember when a duel was a polite affair? When you considered your words for your own sake as much as that of others? How can we enjoy stabbing and being stabbed when standards have just plunged?
You asked, Teresa, so I'll answer:
I don't like ad campaigns like Honda's because of its insidiousness. They sponsor specific content on this site because they're interested in softening criticism about their products. And on some sites I've seen sell out in the past, it's worked.
What really made me upset was that it was done here. Not to inflate anyone's ego, but I look up to most of the BB staff (and the others are left out only because I'm not really familiar with them). I don't see the ads most of the time, and this ad campaign felt like a betrayal. Also, at the time, I was watching the one Democratic senator from my state betray me on the FISA bill, so the double whammy was a bit hard to take.
I'm sorry if I hurt people's feelings.
So what you're saying is that it's impossible for Honda to mean well by this, or for Boing Boing to be anything but deluded about their role in it?
By all means, let's go after Honda for not being green enough. That'll encourage 'em. Any person or organization that expresses green sentiments, but doesn't meet the most exacting possible standards of perfection, is worthy of nothing but scorn.
Imagine that every time you accomplish some small incremental task or bit of learning, an implacable judge standing behind you says:
"It's not enough."
"You could be doing more."
"You're working toward the wrong goal."
"It doesn't matter how hard you tried."
"It's not enough."
"What about all the tasks you didn't get done?"
"Why should you get credit? It was in your interest."
"You could be doing more."
"It's not enough."
You know that wouldn't motivate you. You know it wouldn't motivate anyone you know. In fact, you know it's a counterproductive approach to take with most members of our species. So why the bleep do so many people in the environmental movement think it's a good overall strategy?
OK, I deservedly had my two rather unarticulate previous comments devowelized, so I think I might try to post a rather more lengthy explanation of what might have been going through my mind.
Other posters here as well as in other blogs have seen this as the contrary to what I and other commenters have raised concern about: Not as Boing Boing "losing it" or selling out, but as Honda getting it, enrolling a major blog with very savvy, uncompromising and controversial stances on a lot of things; people propose we could see this, not as Boing Boing going "their way", but as Honda - a large, rather well-behaved automotive player courting a rather "progressive" image - going "our" way.
And this is well and good, and this might be the end of it, and nothing to be concerned about.
There's just still a little nagging feeling, though - which is mostly to do with the form of this deal. Honda is sponsoring three new sections, "Innovation", "Environment" and "Safety". Advertising is a very well-known
A very well-known ethical safe-guard in traditional media is the separation between advertising and editorial matters. I see the introduction of sponsored sections as a violation of this separation; the New York Times may come in several sections, but how would you feel about suddenly getting a new section, the Environment section "sponsored by General Motors"?
The New York Times may remain exactly what it always was, but there would always be some nagging feeling of queeziness about this new section; the newspaper's or at least that section's credibility would have become slightly tainted, nothing more, nothing less.
And then there's the slight Orwellian touch to the names of the new sections. Not to say working with the automotive industry is in any way evil, but we are speaking of a corporate player whose products are necessarily responsible for the deaths of a lot of people and also take a huge toll on the environment. This does not call for shunning or demonization, but it does call for due consideration - which is not exactly present in tag names like "Safety" and "Environment". I rather think the choice is a bit tactless, one of the reasons some people feel icky, no doubt.
I has been countered, that Honda actually do have a vested interest in safety and do want to be seen as doing something for the environment. And yes, this is true, but ... Philip Morris also has a vested interes in people staying healthy; after all, if their customers remain healthy, they will likely live longer and smoke more cigarettes.
Now, am I the only one who could see a problem in having a tag called "Health", sponsored by Philip Morris? Now, this could never happen of course, because tobacco smoking is marginalized and Big Tobacco widely condemned in the US - but there's some of the same Orwellian uneasiness about Honda's choice of tags.
So, I'm not saying this deal should not have been done at all (Boing Boing is, of course, a rather big and costly operation and should be able to make money on its trademark and visitors), but I believe it could and should have been done better.
....AND I thought Boing Boing ran on bean sprouts!!!!
DAMN YOU, BOING BOING!!!
LOL
How about we wait and see and when Honda gets caught doing something bad , we watch how BB lets us comment on it AND THEN DRAW A CONCLUSION. Me, I always like a fair trial before the hanging. (though I'm really only in it for the hangings)
TNH,
I've given it some more thought... In addition to eschewing any sponsors that might offend my delicate sensibilities, could the Boing-Boingers also rub my feet and serve me peeled grapes. (Not in that order!)
Teresa@140: Honda is a big corporation. And it's common practice for big corporations to spend a little money on ad campaigns saying they're fixing their problems rather than spend a lot of money actually fixing their problems.
So yeah, I find it highly unlikely that Honda means well by this.
I am pleased that the car companies are making progress; however, they should have been making this progress 35 years ago, when they realized they were in trouble. Instead, they tried to lobby their way out of the problem. Now we face a climate crisis, and most of them are still trying to lobby their way out of the problem!
So yeah, I'm a bit annoyed at car companies.
Agger, that was a very decent argument. What I can give you right away is the news that Mark Frauenfelder just posted an official statement about this stuff in the "Hamster's Lunch" thread. Short version: full separation between advertising and editorial, in a degree of independence not seen since Addison & Steele.
Whatever Honda's actual motivations, if we can't distinguish their actions from a company that genuinely means well, it comes out to much the same thing.
SCAM, Cowicide, thank you for making me laugh out loud.
Andrew M.: Annoyed, sure. But since we don't have time machines, and thus can't go back and change their minds 35 years ago, perhaps we'd better do what we can with them now.
I'm fond of La Rochefoucauld's line, "Hypocrisy is the tribute which vice pays to virtue." We are not God, to know others' inner thoughts and motives. What we know are their external actions. It's enough that those are good.
I guess what is getting some people's gizzard is that they don't really understand that there isn't necessarily any reason to separate advertising from a publication's *structure*, in this case specifically the URL structure of a site.
I mean, all BB has done here is create a category, retroactive assign already-published stories to that category, and create a category page. And now, besides the usual 'run of site' deal, they can offer an advertiser a 'run of category'. Big deal.
Yes, I suppose it could be presented as fodder for a slippery slope argument, but only through the use of rather tortured logic and by ignoring the BB crew's track record.
Teresa, you're doing yeoman duty. Thank you. I can only hope that the perennially disemvowelled eventually leave for greener pastures.
I'm amazed by the amount of disemvowelling going on here. Maybe I'm alone here but some of the disemvowelled comments didn't seem to be that insulting or degrading other than accusing BB of selling out. And I'm on BB's side on this advertising issue but I like to read other people's take on this. The moderation for this discussion seems to me way too biased in favour of BB stance. Basically, I find trying to read disemvowelled comments rather more annoying than reading a couple of trolls. Is it just me or does anyone else think that the disemvowelling is going a bit to far?
Antonio, it's quite a lot more disemvowelling than I'm happy with. On the other hand, you can still read it, so you know far more than you would if I'd been deleting messages instead.
As for the tenor of the messages, if you think there's nothing insulting or degrading about that kind of mindless pile-on, where commenters are trying to one-up each other with increasingly extreme versions of "Boing Boing is hopelessly corrupt and has neither morals nor princples," then you and I will just have to agree that we have differnt notions of what "insulting or degrading" means. Some of the accusations were downright absurd, and one of them was obscene.
It's calmer here now. There's a lot more thinking going on.
So. Would it be inappropriate to ask the the BB crew weigh in on the question of whether the information architecture of the site needs to be considered 'editorial' and subject to separation from advertising?
My own view is that IA *can* be considered editorial, but it depends on the site (ie. to the degree that IA influences the content that is produced), but that in BB's case this is *probably* a completely misplaced concern, unless the advertising contract has some requirement or incentive that x articles be produced for the sponsored categories so they don't go stale.
There are, of course, other site types (such as wikis) where IA has a direct influence on the content and the IA does need to be considered editorial, but I think, in general, blogs like BB that are primarily chronologically organized are NOT one of those types.
A good book on the power of categories to shape our thinking is George Lakoff's 'Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things'.
Mike, drop buzzwords much?
Seriously people, we need 200+ posts on this.
WE CAN DO IT
You smelly hippies aren't done bickering over a moot point yet are you?
So disappointing, Buttseks. There'll be 200-message threads in times to come.
I know Michael R. Bernstein, and he can talk that way for real -- knows what all the words mean, uses them because they're what he actually means, all that sort of thing.
I love that people have to refer to me as 'buttseks' because of the power of anonymity. If that's not freedom, I don't know what is.
Thank you, Internet
Insofar as I can speak for the Internet, I'm glad it's made you happy.
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