U2 manager blames silicon valley's "hippy values" for making him less rich
CBC has an article about U2 manager Paul McGuinness' amusing tirade against ISPs who are "destroying the recorded music industry" with peer-to-peer file-sharing. Short version: blame the dirty hippies.
McGuinness said much of Silicon Valley arose out of "hippy values" that did not include a respect for copyright and established business models. Many of the area's entrepreneurs don't consider themselves "makers of burglary kits," he said.Here's a nice photo of Mr. McGuinness and Mr. Vox holding up a sheet of paper calling up the UK government to support a copyright extension for recorded music."There are plenty of private equity fund managers who are Deadheads," he said, a reference to hippy icons The Grateful Dead. "And embedded deep down in the brilliance of those entrepreneurial, hippy values seems to be a disregard for the true value of music."
the latest
latest episodes
The last time U2 made a good album was in 1991. I don't think it's illegal sharing that is ruining music.
When i went to see Beowulf, i was subjected to 27 minutes of previews. I shit you not. The last preview was for U2's 3d concert.
I was mildly amused that U23D looks like leet speek for 'used'
because thats how i felt.
Holy crap - what douche-tastic statements. Aww, man why did he have to go and do that?
But yeah, I would have to agree with Liquefied, unfortunately. I have a wee bit of hope for the upcoming album since Lanois is back on-board, but McGuinness going around spouting this nonsense isn't going to help any with my outlook.
Here's more from McGuinness' rant:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3265717.ece
Another recent unfortunate idiocy from the fathead. I say unfortunate as the band has always worded their statements on P2P and filesharing very carefully in interviews acknowledging the lack of harm in live shows and the value of the technology to new artists.
Countdown to someone calling Bono a hypocrite...
He needs another $10m to expand the house and move the guest quarters another 2 miles from the master bath.
McGuinness accuses "hippie values" to disregard the true value of music when I think his very argument against P2P programs is strictly driven by greed and loss of revenues which aren't at all true values of music either. I'm not glorifying illegal downloads of music but I will label U2 as a bunch of sell outs. At least P2P programs spread the art of music around our culture as oppose to people like Bono who slap his picture and signature on the back of every iPod sold a few years back. And now this 3-D bullshit. I started laughing for at least 5 minutes when Bono said "we've always been in 3-D on stage and now you can see us 3-D on the big screen." I'd say sharing music using P2P programs is definitely the lesser of two evils when compared to bands like U2 that sell out hardcore so that Bono can buy another thousand pairs of his stupid looking, over priced glasses and travel on his personal jet.
There should be a celebrity deathmatch with U2 vs Radiohead. . .
What happened U2? you used to be cool
So I'm sure that their fans will be happy to buy U2 songs through iTunes (remember the U2 iPod?).
After all, when U2 18 came out it had two new songs, and the beauty of digital is that you don't need to buy a hunk of plastic to get two new songs, and you can get just the ones you don't already own.
Except, of course, that those new songs are "Album Only" at iTunes. That's a great way to encourage people to just get copies of those songs (without DRM) from a filesharing network, and to "thank" (by which I mean "annoy") fans who already own the previous albums.
The true value of music: Feeding band managers Kobe beef burgers and Faberge egg omelets.
I've been seeing posts about this all over the intertard today and this is the first one with headline that properly summarizes McGuinness's speech. Thanks for that.
...his very argument against P2P programs is strictly driven by greed and loss of revenues which aren't at all true values of music either.
Hallelujah.
Damn Silicon Valley, stopping U2 from being filthy rich!
http://laptoplogic.com/data/news/images/1463/u2_ipod.jpg
I think $100-180 for a concert ticket "seems to be a disregard for the true value of music".
My first reaction was what the fuck does he care? He and U2 are filthy rich. My second reaction was what the fuck did I care? U2 haven't made a great album since Joshua Tree back in '88. That's 20 goddamn years!
Once my bile receded I could read his statements more objectively. And you know what, he's still fucking wrong. If he was honest he would acknowledge that the music industry has been overcharging consumers for decades and lining their own purses and those of few mega acts like U2, Madonna and Michael Jackson. Most artists can't make a living off their art and are tax write-offs for the industry. If you're extremely lucky, you can make a decent living from being a musician and not have a day job. Along came file sharing and now they whine. Payback's a bitch, motherfucker!
The last five years the industry have attempted to devour the hand that feeds them by suing the consumers, adding restrictive DRM and overcharging web radio for the music they play. I was so disgusted that in 2006 my resolution was to not purchase any corporate rock, let alone illegally download and corporate rock. I vowed to only purchase from indie artists and indie labels. In 2007 I purchased three corporate rock CDs and was so disappointed with what I heard that I'm back to abstaining save for the rare exception. I suggest you do the same and help hammer the final nail into the coffin of the music industry.
Fuckers.
Whatever happened to learning to sing or learning an instrument and getting together with your friends to make music? Trekking in the Himalayas, the people that we encountered literally sing all day long. They make in a year what we make in five minutes and they're still enjoying life more than we are. Entertain yourself and let the record labels wither and die.
Bravo, #13 solipsisticnation. I remember back in the old days, when I was a kid, in the 60s and 70s, that music was just music. Good or bad, great or so-so. We just wanted to listen to what we thought was "the good stuff". We usually waited until our song came around on the radio, or, if really in love, bought the album. We never imagined that music was an "industry".
"...embedded deep down in the brilliance of those entrepreneurial, hippy values seems to be a disregard for the true value of music."
Yeah, hippies, don't you know the true value of music? No, it's not about touching your spirit or any of that horseshit, it's 99¢ per download! Haven't you heard of iTunes?
Yawn. You're a U2 fan long enough, you learn to ignore both the occasional wank from McG, Bono AND teh Internetz.
The Corporate Sponsored Culture Era is over and done with. Sorry dood, you milked it for all it was worth. I'm getting more value listening to my co-worker's blues band. It's more fun to hoist a pint while you're listening to people you know than it is to participate in a press release driven, ticket master sponsored, corporate money extraction racket that artificially gives you the feeling that you know your music idol when in reality you're just another unknown listening to some great hits by some band made two decades ago that are being recycled ad nauseum.
Is Bono on welfare yet? I feel sorry for him if he is.
#17 ALISONG76, it's not about Bono and U2. This is a discussion about music and greedy people.
I just emailed this to the site:
As an owner of every U2 CD from "Boy" to the latest "Singles," I'd just like to know where I can mail those CDs just to let you know how totally pissed off I am at your manager. I was turned on to U2 by a Norwegian foreign exchange student at my Kansas high school. He gave me a bootleg of a bootleg. I bought the albums not out of need for fidelity, but out of respect. That respect has been removed by his recent comments about Internet downloading that were posted on this very site. And now I'd like to return all of those subsequent purchases. You don't have to give me my money back. Just apply it to debt relief. And know that I will never, ever, buy another U2 album again.
Since when does someone have to "respect established business models?" What? I'm sorry, but if your business model sucks, it's your own fault.
My business model is to stand of the street corner and have everyone that passes me to give me $20. What? What do you mean you won't do that? What do you mean "That's essentially panhandling?" You're not respecting my business model! How dare you! This, means war!
*sigh*
...then, Mc Guinness lit his Montecristo No. 2 with a 500 Euro note, and hopped in his gold plated Bentley...which would be platinum if it weren't for dem dam pirates!
@#2
Capt. Tim
So you saw a preview of U2's 3D concert, then.
Personally, I can't wait till U2 collapses the dimensions as it disappears up it's collective arsehole.
these guys are from england, and WHO GIVES A SHIT?
truer words were never spoken, mister kasem.
"these guys are from england, and WHO GIVES A SHIT?
truer words were never spoken, mister kasem."
Ahem. Unless I'm missing something with that Kasem comment, they most certainly are NOT from England...
RAGEAHOL is accurately quoting Kasem.
Full text of speech: http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i062b16e707aa9991bc2d3ece70427dc6
I can relate. My toothpick & matchbook selling business went under once those dastardly restaurants and bars started giving them away for free. They simply did not respect my business model. Hippies! And toothpicks & matchbooks are actually useful, as opposed to songs and musicians.
How much money do they need? They dont even pay any tax since they moved their operation to holland. Th epoor starving childeren of eire eh?
But isn't it true? File sharing is an obvious method for distributing digital media. If it was Cory Doctorow saying, "My book was on the shelf for one day before someone "shared" it with ten million of their friends," I think the issue might be different. Why do people think artists should just give their work away? Is this simply an example of an entitled attitude? Socialism by any other name? I learned something from Liz Holiday, an editor of sf. She doesn't make copies and give them to her friends. She thinks writers and other artists have spend a lot of time making their art and have a right to make a living from it. "Let me share" is code for "let me cheat."
I got a nice chuckle out of his (quote) 'the majority of downloads were through illegal P2P download services like BitTorrent and LimeWire' (unquote) on the Radiohead album release.
Gee I didn't know BitTorrent is (gasp) illegal, I shall stop using it to download my perfectly legal copies of free software and free music right away. This guy must have taken some propaganda lessons, and they sure paid out.
This is disappointing, as a U2 fan. I'm glad it's the manager at least, instead of an actual member of the band.
When are some of the wealthiest people on the planet going to realize that trying to make us pity them is never going to work? If they want to argue against file-sharing, they need better arguments.
Don't worry Bono, I've NEVER downloaded a U2 track. Hippies have slightly better taste.
What Mr. McGuinness apparently fails to realize is that a major cause of the current sorry state of the music industry is that they sat down and looked on as the technological boat sailed right past them. They continued to do things the same old way long after their customers were demanding (or already adopted) a new way. Somewhat like the American car industry which is hurting because other car producing nations were much more flexible and attuned to customers' wants and needs.
The bbc version is great:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7215226.stm
> "If you were a magazine advertising stolen
> cars, handling the money for stolen cars and
> seeing to the delivery of stolen cars, the
> police would soon be at your door," he said.
but then he's talking about taking money off the owner of the roads, upon which the stolen car was driven to your house.
If you're going to make an analogy, better make it a good one, mr 15% of many many millions.
Music has no intrinsic monetary value. It's a cultural asset that generates revenue based off its contributions to culture. Any moron that values the cash over cultural needs to be expunged from the music industry. The industry, and those greedily suckling at its teat, are what is destroying music.
Overpriced pap is pirated, as it should be. The people are able to express what they think the music is worth in an expression of dollars and it's pretty clear what they think.
I'm sure Mr.McGuinness was happy to see U2 as the Itunes poster band a few years back, and is also probably proud to see his breadmaker mingle with Mr Gates, an enabler of such technologies that are "killing" his business.
Sorry to hear things aren't going as planned Mr McGuinness. But you, as a manager, are responsible for your situation and seeing you blame everything under the sun for your problems only shows how desperate, and greedy you are. Blogger #33 hit it right on the nail. While all has been changing around you, you were looking the other way. Time to get to work and re-think your business model I guess?
Most seem to be missing the real motivation here. McGuinness is just another DRM snake oil salesman, and his rant here is merely an attempt to sell more "fail" to the record industry. From the full text of his speech:
http://www.u2.com/news/index.php?mode=full&news_id=2196
"There is technology now, that the worldwide industry could adopt, which enables content owners to track every legitimate digital download transaction, wholesale and retail. This system is already in use here in Cannes by the MIDEM organisation and is called SIMRAN. Throughout this conference you will see contact details and information. I recommend you look at it. I should disclose that I’m one of their investors."
I used to work with one of Paul McG's artists. He's actually a nice, charming guy, but he is SOOO wrong about this.
Any old timers remember Edge's epic interview in *Mondo 2000* back in the early ’90s? The band had just sued Negativland to death for sampling the *Joshua Tree*. The band wasn't doing much press, though techno-enthusiast Edge agreed to do a *Mondo* cover. The interviewer let him boast at length about the band's current multimedia stage show, which featured huge monitors displaying found images -- newscast, movie clips, and the like.
I paraphrase from memory:
Q: But aren't those copyrighted images?
A: Well, yes, but we've recontextualized them. We've created a new and original piece of art.
Q: I'm interested to hear you say that, because I play in this band called Negativland, and...
A: Uh-oh.
Edge was actually rather gracious about being punked like that. But it was one of the best music interviews ever.
As if I needed ANOTHER reason to hate one of the most overrated bands of this era.
"I'm only hanging on
To watch you go down"
Jeff@30: I hope you're kidding. You are aware that Cory pretty much "gives away" all of his novels?
http://craphound.com/index.php?cat=5
(I could be set up for an epic *WHOOOOOSH* here, but I'll bite)
It's not U2's fault their manager is a dork.
Username (38), really don't give a damn. Do it on your own time.
Jeff (30):
Nope. Cory's books aren't on the shelf for even one day before he gives them away. He always makes full unDRM'd electronic copies available to anyone who wants them. He's done that with all his books, and their hardcopy versions have sold quite well.Baen Books can put out the latest novel in a popular series with a DVD containing all the previous novels in the series bound into the back of the book, and the sales of the entire series will go up.
The biggest reason someone buys a book at a bookstore is that they've read and enjoyed another book by that same author. You figure it out.
Because the great entropic black hole that devours artists isn't theft by filesharing; it's obscurity. I'm not speaking theoretically.No disrespect for Liz Holiday. She's a good editor. But she's not the last word on how writing sells.I do. So do all the other editors I've worked with. We love our authors' books, and want to see them do well.Does that mean she's come up with a solution to the problem of not being able to force readers to buy and read works that don't take their fancy? She should have said something. The industry's been looking for that solution for a long time now.If somebody slaps you on the back while you're saying that, you're going to wind up sounding like Jerry Pournelle for the rest of your life.That's not what it means. "Here, share this" means "Let me show you something I think you'll like." If they don't like it, there's no lost sale -- they wouldn't buy it anyway. If they do like it, there's a good chance they'll buy a legit version, or a bunch more stuff from your backlist/catalog. That's a win. And if they only like the thing their friend shares with them, it's still something they wouldn't have bought unaided, so you're still out nothing.
This isn't theoretical. In bookselling, it's demonstrable.
Onward to other arguments:
Once upon a time, there wasn't enough SF and/or fantasy published to feed the appetites of readers who loved the genre. That's not the case any more, and science fiction is a small world. You might want to refrain from calling people thieves for being interested in and willing to read your work.
In fact, if that happens, you might want to count yourself just plain lucky. As Cory has pointed out, SF/fantasy is unique in having people who love it so much that they're willing to go to the trouble of stealing it. Most of the aspiring young writers out there who rant about having their work stolen are never going to be read in pirate editions, because nobody's going to care enough to do it.
We've wandered far afield from the discussion of U2's manager. Some of what I've said here isn't applicable. Much of it is.
What I find particularly humorous about his analogy is that those hippies the Grateful Dead were the number one grossing live act for years and perhaps this was partly driven by their long standing taping/trading policy which was certainly a precursor to what fans are desiring and engaging in now.
You can make mad cash and treat your fans well is the lesson there I think.
Well, it would be nice if Paul McGuinness took care of paying songwriter royalties for cover songs on U2 DVDs. Just saying...
ChimChim2000, I hadn't thought of that, but you're right -- the Dead were wide-open to sharing. I never went over to see, but I'm told they let tapers plug into the main sound board.
I'm a small artist on an indie label with some material on iTunes and elsewhere. I've sold quite a few tracks but I'm pretty damn unknown and have given away more music physically and digitally than I've sold. In my position it would be nice if a ton of people cared enough about the work I produce to be sharing it "illegally." As much as sharing one's music can be rewarding, that's also a means of promotion and at some point I for one would like it even more if I could sell enough to make a living. That's getting harder than ever and a lot of artists in my position resort to licensing songs to earn some money, feeling forced to "sell out" just to keep breathing. Most struggling bands (and that's every band at some stage) will do just about anything they can to get heard. I don't question for a second that U2 would be uploading their own tracks for free distribution if they were 20 yrs. old and unknown. Apparently their manager is too out of touch and too absorbed in his own conflicting commercial interests to realize this can be an effective promotional tool whether you're a multi-platinum act or a small independent.
Radiohead's manager said something to the extent that they never would have done Rainbow's download scheme if it weren't for the fact they were confident it would serve as an effective promotional effort to sell music. I suppose if half of the million people who have your album pay for it that's loads better than your album being purchased by 250,000. (numbers pulled from arse for purpose of illustration.)
Your ISP should be viewed as little more than a means of delivery and any industry, including the ISP itself, should keep their nose out of your package. And it's nobodies business if I use my mp3 player as a portable hard drive, a device to play music created by myself, locally recorded Djembe music or a paperweight. Why should the record industry, paper industry or shampoo industry take a slice of my (inflated) purchase price? Maybe Universal should include a $1 refund coupon with every Zune sold (does anyone have a Zune) for those who don't listen to Universal published music. Maybe MS should keeps it's nose out of your listening habits and not capitulate to industry bribes in an effort to quell the competition.
I don't think U2 released a solid album after Achtung Baby but the worst thing about this short sighted, greedy, misinformed, speech is that it taints some beautiful experiences for a lot of fans who contributed to making U2 as successful as they are in the first place. I take music very personally and have been touched by U2 and have a lot of great memories of old friends, times, and places associated with their music. Accepting Tom Cruise's present state of insanity isn't too difficult because Risky Business isn't all that dear to me, really -- and besides he's an actor after all. Wait, maybe U2 are actors in a reality show, only it's not a show. More of a reality distortion field.
Dear moderator (#44),
Guess you missed my point. My criticism is directed towards the manager of this band. Nothing against the band. Any big exec will always find reasons for a decline in sales, and will ALWAYS point to external forces. We see it in the Oil industry, car industry, etc. Truth of the matter, this (technology) has been going on for a good 10 years and still the big record company is shooting itself in the foot by embracing this technology, and by signing deals with Itunes, or Amazon. If they really cared about the artists, then they wouldn't be out there selling singles through Itunes (one example) and other music outlets. If Mr McGuinness has so much to blame, then maybe he should take a stand and do like RadioHead did. They have engaged their fan base - the fans are happy and RadioHead came up with sales of over $3 million on this experiment.With very little cost. What U2s' manager is doing is biting the hand that feeds it.
Having an executive blame hippies, Silicone Valley, Radiohead, Steve Jobs, technology, innovation and ISPs is not taking responsibility for his own actions. And the last thing the world needs is having the ISPs involved in filtering content for the benefit of big record labels, or any organization for that matter, including government. And this is what Mr McGuinness suggests as a solution to make up for lost revenues. And if, dear moderator, you think this is a great idea, then come forward with a valid argument rather than "Username (38), really don't give a damn. Do it on your own time."
I think his speech, will sadly have a negative impact on U2.
Dear moderator (#44),
Guess you missed my point. My criticism is directed towards the manager of this band. Nothing against the band. Any big exec will always find reasons for a decline in sales, and will ALWAYS point to external forces. We see it in the Oil industry, car industry, etc. Truth of the matter, this (technology) has been going on for a good 10 years and still the big record company is shooting itself in the foot by embracing this technology, and by signing deals with Itunes, or Amazon. If they really cared about the artists, then they wouldn't be out there selling singles through Itunes (one example) and other music outlets. If Mr McGuinness has so much to blame, then maybe he should take a stand and do like RadioHead did. They have engaged their fan base - the fans are happy and RadioHead came up with sales of over $3 million on this experiment.With very little cost. What U2s' manager is doing is biting the hand that feeds it.
Having an executive blame hippies, Silicone Valley, Radiohead, Steve Jobs, technology, innovation and ISPs is not taking responsibility for his own actions. And the last thing the world needs is having the ISPs involved in filtering content for the benefit of big record labels, or any organization for that matter, including government. And this is what Mr McGuinness suggests as a solution to make up for lost revenues. And if, dear moderator, you think this is a great idea, then come forward with a valid argument rather than "Username (38), really don't give a damn. Do it on your own time."
I think his speech, will sadly have a negative impact on U2.
Moderator, thanks for the info. As much as I applaud Mr. Doctorow for being so Free minded, I know there are many others who are not. I know he makes his stuff available and that the copyright culture is dynamic. I'm sure a ballance will find its place. Obviously book selling is a very complex business, as are cultural value systems in general. I'm glad to hear people are making there stuff available for free, as I've come to the conclusion that I want to do the same thing myself. As for Liz Holiday, I'm sure she's good at what she does, but I did not agree with her very legal attitude toward sharing. Of course this was a while ago and she may be a full-blown C.C. kind of editor now.
I don't understand why everyone rails against the CUSTOMER and nobody is outraged over the COPIOUS GARBAGE being released by major record companies every week.
Doesn't U2's manager see that iTunes has as much to do with the downfall of CD sales as anything? We, the people, do not have to buy the full CD anymore if half of it sucks.
BTW, are there new episodes of theITroom.com coming out anytime soon? Where would I find information on that? ;)
Too bad Mr. McGuinness never got even a short course in "hippie values".
The fact that U2 is managed by someone with his head so far up the Lindbaugh School of Distortion says everything needed about the "music industry".
I'll go even farther: such demonizations are at the root of the corruption and outright usury that are making the US into a third-world nation.
U2 has posted the speech to its web site, which means Bono probably won't be contrite any time soon, the prick.
http://www.u2.com/news/index.php?mode=full&news_id=2196
Q: How long, how long must I sing this song?
A: Until you actually run for civil society based democratic office in government, or actually write an influential book or two, or create a blog that gets over a million hits a day. Sunglasses history does not make.
KKK: Analysis? Bono would have made a better Bill Clinton instead of bill, except he was giving backstage passes to ten girls a day in his heyday instead of making a single pass at some fat girl, on purpose, in order to get caught. You'd think the CIA/FBI/NSA/ETC agencies could have shut down *that* DRUGEREPORT rumor faster than JFK could say CASTRATE CASTRO? Yeah, any of us would make a better "world leader" than the real ones. But do we do it? Get a (gag) law degree. Then deal with local "busy body" committee political gatherings? Then...oh, you know the story. THEN, not be able, like JFK, to have a mistress or two, next to your wife at your funeral? No wonder the Rest of the World is electing female leaders. By which I mean porn actresses. They do better than our Republican actors do (Reagan/Schwarzenegger), since they actually acted as independent artists in multiple positions in truly corrupt situations.
"There are plenty of private equity fund managers who are Deadheads," he said, a reference to hippy icons The Grateful Dead."
I see a couple of people have picked up on it already, but this is certainly a nod to the fact that Deadheads were pioneers in creating high-quality bootlegs of shows using best-available technologies (DAT and the like) and sharing them through a sophisticated social "network". They were the peer-to-peer music-distributing "pirates" before the Web even existed; except their piracy was valued and encouraged. The U2 blowhard is suggesting that this kind of attitude skewed their values and business-sense. He makes a good point, but it's not the one he thinks he's making. I bet when he drops acid, all he sees is an endless swirl of green going down a toilet, the poor wretch.