Infomercial for foot pads to leach toxic compounds from body
Wired Science has a good time making fun of this infomercial for "the ancient Japanese secret to perfect health," the Kinoki foot pad. "Beware of cheap imitations!"
LinkThe infomercial claims that these footpads are scientifically proven to help anyone detox, but scientists know that toxins are generally removed from our bodies by way of the liver and kidneys -- not our feet.
Even worse, they cite research in a bogus scientific journal.
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Thank you for debunking this myth! I see ads for these all the time and knew it was garbage.
Thanks, I'll stick to the expensive imitations now and avoid the cheap ones.
Seriously though, there are acupuncture points that can be used to (supposedly) stimulate the liver and/or kidneys, so theoretically you might have a foot pad that could do this. YMMV...
#2: Absorb "toxins" through your feet? No, no you could not have a foot pad that does what this claims to do.
check out this podcast on skeptoid.com that mentions this "technology"... funny stuff and he has a good explanation of the gunk that appears on the pad..
http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4083.mp3
I have seen these, and have done some research into customer reviews. I obviously am skeptical, but here are two notable things to consider.
1. Reviewers report that the pads DO turn dark icky colors, are gooey/sticky, and smell AWFUL after use. Suggestions were made that perhaps the herbs and materials in the pad react to your skin and sweat and/or each other and make the pads turn color and smell badly.
However, reviewers report that after several uses, the dark color starts to gradually lessen each time, as does the odor and gooeyness. Wouldn't this discount the assertion that something within the pads is changing color due to a reaction? Users also state there is no "order" in which the pads are to be used. In other words, there are no "stages' with different pads which could account for the lessening of the dark, gooey, foul material as they are used in succession.
2. I had a bout with a nasty cold/flu, and was looking for natural remedies. Garlic is purported to have antibiotic properties. Some people suggested putting a crushed clove of garlic in my sock during the day (or night) and my body would absorb the allicin in the garlic. Well, sure enough, after a few hours of putting a piece of garlic in your shoe, you can CLEARLY, STRONGLY smell garlic on your breath. SOMEHOW, that garlic gets into your body via the skin on the soles of your feet.
If the skin is slightly permeable there, doesn't it stand to reason that if something can go IN it could feasibly come OUT? Kinda makes sense. See also nicotine and birth control patches which produce the same effects.
I'm not defending, and do not use or sell these damn things, but I ALMOST bought a box. Can't bring myself to stoop that low, but, then I think about these simple concepts, and start to wonder!
The skeptoid podcast is great!
His explanation is that the pads are self adhesive, and will remove excess skin and dirt from the soles of your feet when you pull them off. As your feet get cleaner, so do the pads, accounting for the reduction of "toxins".
I believe this, but also find it interesting that the majority of bad reviews of this product complain that the pads are NOT ADHESIVE ENOUGH to stay on your foot, and users are resorting to taping the pads on, or wearing socks during sleep to prevent the pads from falling off due to low adhesion.
I'm not sure that a pad that barely stays on without taping it down would pull off enough material to look "dirty".
But, it's probably the most sensible answer.
I saw this infomercial for the first time this weekend. I laughed so hard when it came on. By the end I knew that these things could not possibly work but there was some feeling deep down that I NEEDED these things. That scared me so I turned off the TV.
@#2:
Since there's no actual evidence that acupuncture works (or at least that any points are better than any other points), saying "this thing may work because there are liver acupuncture points on the foot" is like saying "this thing may work because the Invisible Pink Unicorn told me it does in a dream."
Besides, reflexologists claim that there are acupuncture points for *everything* in the foot, so even if it were true it would be irrelevant.
I would like to know if these things are UNSAFE at all because I would want to try them just to experiment for myself!
From the video:
"just like a tree draws energy in [graphic shows sunlight falling an a tree with animated arrow streams moving in from the sky, down the canopy, through the trunk and out the roots] and toxins down its trunk--Kinoki foot pads work the same way"
Yup, your feet are just like tree roots! And trees take energy from the sun, convert it to "toxins" and expel those toxins out their roots!
There is something seriously wrong with our consumer protections when this commercial can even get television air time. It is, IMO, fraud at its most blatant, using that canard of "alternative" medicine: unspecified toxins! Which the foot pads magically know and pull out through the thickest skin on your body! Never mind that your body vitally needs a variety of "toxins" to live--such as vitamins and minerals, which are toxic in high doses, as are all substances, including water, in sufficient quantities.
This is another magic product that has been given the benefit of the doubt by our overly tolerant "science is hard and it is easier to believe in magic" thinking that also happens to be encouraged by anti-scientific religiosity of the kind Mike Huckabee represents.
You probably need to be wearing a "Q ray" bracelet at the same time for the effects to be fully experienced.
http://www.qray.ca/Default.aspx
"The Q-Ray Bracelet is designed to optimize your own bio-energy to promote better performance and an overall sense of health and well-being."
uh huh.
coop
@#9:
If you want an "alternative medicine" treatment proven to be perfectly safe, go with homeopathy: Guaranteed to have no adverse (or other) effect whatsoever!
should stupidity be against the law?
Oh sure, make stupidity against the law. Take all the fun out of life whydon'tya? Stupid isn't always bad. I know lots of people that make themselves a little stupid on purpose. It's cocktail hour somewhere on Earth! Bottoms up.
I love idiocy like this. It justifies me acting like a smart-aleck.
"Are you poising yourself with unavoidable toxins from the food water and air we breath?"
Because we breath water and food.
I also love how the foot pads remove "cellulite...and more!" considering that cellulite is a condition, not any part of the body.
"Koniki also contains ions to refresh your body and enhance your overall wellbeing."
Ions? Awesome! You know where else you get ions? Food! I'll be like sleeping with my feet in a bowl of fruit salad.
On the subject of Q-Ray Bracelets (I got get quote out of Sky Mall, that shopping magazine airlines give out):
Like acupuncture, yoga and tai-chi, the Q-Ray Bracelet is based on traditional Chinese medicine. The exclusive process that goes into every Q-Ray is designed to balance the negative and positive energy forces in your body to achieve a state of “Chi,” where you will feel and perform at your best.
Like acupuncture, yoga and tai-chi... Unfortunately, yoga isn't at all Chinese. Hell, yoga is about as Chinese as I am.
"Achieve a state of "Chi"? Chi (qi, however you want to spell it) isn't a state, and isn't a goal to be achieved. I'm not going to try to define what chi is, but suffice it to say that the mere notion that you can "achieve a state of chi" demonstrates that their philosophies are more in line with that of Ivar Kreuger than anything oriental.
@#1:
If your skin were permeable on your feet, would that not be a horrible, horrible evolutionary flaw? Think of all the disgusting and rancid things people most likely walked through (far) back in the day.
Then again, IANAD or anything.
@6
People on the linked blog's comments are saying that the discoloration may be from the bamboo vinegar that's an ingredient in the pads.
In which case, the pads are basically another "cheap music club" racket.
"#12 POSTED BY TRIMETA , JANUARY 23, 2008 12:23 PM
@#9:
If you want an "alternative medicine" treatment proven to be perfectly safe, go with homeopathy: Guaranteed to have no adverse (or other) effect whatsoever!"
Not anymore! Since any kind of alternative medicine is based on assertion rather than evidence anyone of them is what ever anyone says it is. Now, while you may be thinking that Homeopathy means harmless, diluted chemicals you'd be wrong because some of what is called "homeopathy" has no relation to the kind of homeopathy you are thinking. Let's take a looks:
Homeopathic? Well, then it must be diluted, right? Not so fast:
Active Ingredient: Zincum Gluconicum 2X
That's a sequential dilution of 1:10 times two, or 1:100. That ain't all that diluted. Zincum Gluconicum has been claimed to cause loss of sense of smell in some people. According the current Wikipedia post, the maker of Zicam settled 340 lawsuits over this issue for $12,000,000.
In an old post, blogger Skeptico questioned whether such a small dilution could even be considered "homeopahic."
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/06/if_it_has_any_i.html
If Zincum Gluconicum works to prevent or reduce the severity of colds its because it's a frickin' drug not because it is a magic "alternative medicine"--and any treatment than can cause a good effect can have side effects. The only thing "homeopathic" about Zicam is the fact that invoking that magic word lets them get away with introducing a powerful drug without proper clinical testing.
In anycase, the lack of consistency of what is or isn't "homeopathic" just shows that there is no guarantee of safety even in the most "benign" of alternative therapies. Once you leave rationality and scientific standards of evidence behind, all bets are off.
Fake Stickers- "Apply directly to feet"
Fake Stickers- "Apply directly to feet"
Fake Stickers- "Apply directly to feet"
Fake Stickers- "Apply directly to feet"
Fake Stickers- "Apply directly to feet"
Not that I think that these things work, but nobody has given the slightest proof that they don't. Skin is highly permeable and ingested substances certainly make their way into skin tissue. Even though these things are probably made out of vacuum cleaner lint and formaldehyde, a permeable substance placed on the skin will absorb something. Probably not a very efficient way to leech lead out of your system, but topical treatments are becoming more common. How many of you would have scoffed at placing leeches and maggots on patients if it had been mentioned thirty years ago? If you're going to debunk, your logic should be better than the scamsters.
You don't think "these things work" but then you go on to posit just how they work???
You are making one of the classic crank fallacies, which is to proceed directly to theorizing how something works before establishing one iota of proof that it works in the first place.
The, IMO, fraudulent product in the OP makes exraordinary and testable scientific claims. The ad says that people's toxin levels went to zero based on use of the magic pads! They sucked out lead, mercury, even asbestos. Who knew you could suck asbestos out your feet by taping a pad on to them??? That must cause a hell of a lot of damage as the asbestos fibers shred their way through your body to get to your feet!
My god, if these things really work we could cure kids of lead poisoning! We could clean up toxic waste dumps with these magic toxin attracting pads. And the Japanese have known about these since ancient times!!! Time to break out the Nobel Prize nominations!!---or, just maybe, they are a total fraud. Which is more likely? That known science is bollocks or that someone just made some shit up to scam you out of some cash?
We, as humans, don't like to believe that someone is bald-faced lying right to our faces--especially an attractive and sincere seeming spokes-model. "Likeing" is one of the basic factors that influence our judgement. Many would question their own judgement and all of science before calling her a liar. That is an error in judgement based on human psychology rather than facts.
It isn't up to skeptics to have to assume these work. These pads make extraordinary claims that contradict known science. It is up to the maker to prove that they work, not just put up graphics of trees converting sunlight into toxins that it pushes out its roots!!! Until that time, speculating "how" they work assumes facts not in evidence.
I think I'll stick to taping maxi-pads to the bottoms of my feet.
The skin in your feet is the thickest and least permeable, you might get better results by using them where the skin is thinest...now where would that be...
Skep,
I worked in health care for 20 years. Half of "science based" medicine is still technically voodoo because we don't understand the mechanisms by which things work. Why, as of this week, it turns out that several LDL reducing drugs actually cause more heart attacks and strokes. Good science presumes neither truth nor falsehood. It just keeps poking at it. You have a very strong bias which kills any possibility of objective observation. Also, you might want to dial down the bold-face type.
Bold? That's a stylistic choice. Sometimes I like my posts to scan quickly. Emphasis and proper organization of thoughts--you know, things like paragraphs--can help make posts easier to read.
Now, once again you are missing the point. In your first post you proceeded to posit theories as to why something worked without first checking to see if it works. You now defend yourself by saying that scientific medicine often doesn't understand why things work. This is a non-sequitur. You are ignoring your earlier, false premise that suggests that one may skip to understanding "how" something works without understanding if it works in the first place. You may not.
You can theorize all you want about "how" Leprechauns get their pots of gold to the ends of rainbows but such theories are beyond a waste of time until you prove that their are Leprechauns and they do place pots of gold at the ends of rainbows.
You can't study how an effect happens until you prove that the effect happens in the first place. If you skip that first step then you aren't doing science you are just doing make believe. Your new post doesn't do anything but confirm that to be the case--inspite of your orthographical restraint vis-à-vis bold type. (I guess your lack of bold type doesn't have a correlation with the truth value of your post...)
As to science being neutral...science has a certain practical agnosticism, unless there is evidence to believe something you don't believe it in a scientific sense. Your mind is open to evidence but you don't believe all things just because many things are possible. In the case of the IMO fraud pads, they are making extraordinary claims that contradict known science. We don't just throw out proven science on the say so of an infomercial!! If they have an extraordinary claim then they need to provide extraordinary evidence that that claim is true. That is the objective standard of science in regards to miracle claims.
BTW, "worked in healthcare" is sufficiently vague to be meaningless in terms of credentials, and it isn't germane anyway since your post must stand on its own and not rely on any alleged claims of authority.
"Not that I think that these things work, but nobody has given the slightest proof that they don't."
Not that I think there's the slightest chance this is true but you haven given the slightest proof that you aren't a giraffe.
Ok - I saw this commerical over christmas and I was like - Hmm wtf.. Then saw the last thing that they claimed the pad took out.. Cellulite..
Ah - this pad is taking out Cellulite?
From Wiki: "Cellulite describes a condition that occurs in men and women where the skin of the lower limbs, abdomen, and pelvic region becomes dimpled after puberty.[1] The term was first used in the 1920s and began appearing in English language publications in the late 1960s, the earliest reference in Vogue magazine, "Like a swift migrating fish the word cellulite has suddenly crossed the Atlantic."[2]
Descriptive names for cellulite include orange peel syndrome, cottage cheese skin, the mattress phenomenon, and hail damage. Synonyms include: adiposis edematosa, dermopanniculosis deformans, status protrusus cutis, and gynoid lipodystrophy. Cellulite is unrelated to cellulitis, which is infection of the skin and its underlying connective tissue."
Might as well throw in some magnetic pressure point shoe pads and a blue colored light for my fridge too.
Damn skep, your logic-fu is strong. If I were "Antinous", I'd be in the fetal position right now questioning anything and everything I'd ever believed in.
If I were Antinous' best friend, I would deny that I knew him after reading your post ;p
@ SAISUMIMEN
I dunno, I think JCCALHOUN made the point a lot more succinctly than I did :-)
I cheerfully admit that I'll believe anything until you disprove it. Even sorrier that you find that so upsetting.
Okay, firstly, I saw the commercial for these pads this past weekend: friggin hysterical. My friend and I have been cracking jokes all week on the subject.
I do not believe the pads work. That being said, I feel a strong urge to correct some things: your skin actually is somewhat permeable, even on your feet (you really can rub a clove of garlic on your foot and smell it on your breath later). The argument that people have stepped in stuff and not absorbed it is off-base: who among us would not immediately wipe off the dogshit or other stepped-in substance? Actually, you know what: eww, I am sure there are people who wouldn't and now I have probably accidentally created a new fetish/meme. Sorry. Anyway, yeah: stuff can enter through your skin.
Stuff can also leave through your skin: you see that every day when you sweat (which as we remember, is basically just slightly salty water: the stink comes from bacteria already on your skin that go to town in the new "environmental conditions"). I am not a doctor, either, but my mom is a nurse and I have a B.S degree in the life sciences (B.S. meaning Bachelor of Sciences).
Oh, and Trimeta: you mean the Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't talk to you in your dreams? tsk tsk...
Boy, you must buy a lot of infomercial crap, given that you assume all claims are true until I, personally, disprove them! But that gives me an idea...
Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Dr. (Mrs.) Mariam Abacha, the wife of the late head of state and commander in chief of the armed forces of the federal republic of Nigeria who died on the 8th of June 1998.
My late husband had/has Eighty Million USD ($80,000,000.00) specially preserved and well packed in trunk boxes of which only my husband and I knew about. It is packed in such a way to forestall just anybody having access to it. It is this sum that I seek your assistance to get out of Nigeria as soon as possible before the present civilian government finds out about it and confiscate it just like they have done to all our assets.
I implore you to please give consideration to my predicament and help a widow in need.
May Allah show you mercy as you do so?
Your faithfully,
Dr (Mrs.) Mariam Abacha (M.O.N)
Please, please don't blow all your cash on psychic hotlines, magnet therapies and detoxifying colon cleansers when, instead, you could do an old lady a favor...
Indeed, but what goes one way doesn't necessarily go the other. For instance, you can inject someone with sterile garlic infused water using a syringe. Now, try and do the opposite, try and suck just the garlic from the blood stream using a syringe. You can't do it. It is the same with your skin. You can absorb certain substances through your skin--that is how medicated "patches" like Nicoderm work--but you can't selectively suck out "toxins" like nicotine back through the skin once they are infused into the body. The infomercials pray on our flawed sense of intuition.
perhaps we are willing to believe in such things because there is a long medical tradition of using poultices to draw toxins and infections.
Wow, someone this dogmatically gullible doesn't come along every day. This is even better than having a little brother :) Oh, where to start...
Leprechauns are real, natch.
I have a secret map to all of their pots of gold, but it is only viewable by people with open minds. Skeptics, people with closed minds and stupid people are unable to comprehend the mystical awesomeness of this treasure map of the Fairy realm, and to them it appears as nothing more than a sheet of A4 white copy paper swiped from Kinko's. But to the enlightened it is discernible as glorious treasure beyond all measure.
Now, I would never sell such a find--that would be material of me. No, I will give it to you free of charge, but because of its sacred nature I must ask for a token of your faith and commitment to demonstrate and prove your ability to care for this priceless artifact. Since it is a map to gold treasure, soon you will be swimming in gold. Therefore it will be no burden for you to provide me 2 pounds of 99.99% gold bullion in advance. But, you must contact me soon or I will have to return this only-one-of-its-kind treasure to the Spirit who guided me to it...
(Even as enlightened one It will take a while for the map to appear to you, 60 days or more. But not to worry, I'll offer a 30 day money back guarantee...but, of course if you don't see the map it can only be because you are an unbeliever or stupid--neither of which are sufficient reason to grant refunds.)
What else, what else...
Computers are powered by invisible demons.
All disease is caused by an imbalance of the 4 humors.
Dihydrogen Monoxide causes cancer.
There is an invisible Pink Unicorn standing right behind you.
Oh, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster is canoodling your spouse right this minute.
Tradition? Well, if you are talking about "drawing out toxins" then a tradition of nonsense, yes, but not "medical" in the modern sense of proven by reliable, evidence-based science.
So, yes, a tradition of pseudo-science and medical nonsense may well predispose some people to believe additional nonsense.
We do enjoy a high standard of medicine with repeatable results these days (well, if you have money anyway). This is a very recent development though.
The pre-disposition to belief about the efficaciousness of poultices is more of a meme than an individually arrived belief. They do work to some extent in some cases. Since we had to rely on such for a very long time prior, it is quite understandable that the idea lingers.
If the intent is to protect people from quackery, then perhaps the larger picture should be kept in mind. Knowing where an idea came from assists in tghe dislodging of it.
One would hope, yet we have a whole history of debunked medicine. Science replaced false presumptions with provable explanations and sound predictions that have revolutionized our ability to treat disease. In spite of this, claptrap is growing back like a weed, perhaps because made up nonsense is easier to "comprehend" than the complexities of science. You can spend a lifetime studying quantum mechanics and never fully understand it or you can say "god did it," QED. Clearly the latter is easier.
I'm unaware of the ability of poultices to "draw out toxins". But, as with most things, I'm open to evidence to the contrary. Citation?In the mean time, the foot pads are a fraud in the worst way.
IMO.
yes the foot pads are a fraud. Not in the worst way though, since I doubt they actually kill anyone.
As to poultices, I myself would prefer a modern first aid kit should I have a cut, for example. In the absence of such, as clean water as can be got together with the locally appropriate plant or herb sure beats nothing. I will leave specific citation to any herbalist that might be reading this. I do know though, that many of our most effective modern medicines are plant derived. (ASA, digitalis, quinine to name a few). I understand comfrey is very rich in oxalic acid. This applied as a poultice
would serve as antiseptic.
As for seizing on "drawing out toxins", if you prefer; "killing bacteria so the bodies natural defenses can clean it up by exuding dead white cells etc."
You are, I'm afraid, dodging the question by trying to shift it. Let's get back on track. Are you aware of any evidence that poltuices "draw away toxins" in the way the pads claim to do? It would seem not since you are trying to shift the discussion.
Very trusting of you. Unfortunately, herbalists generally get their "wisdom" from mostly non-evidence based sources, such as compilations of herbalist "knowledge." Much of the "wisdom" of herbalisim comes from ideas like certain herbs are "good" for kidney ailments because look vaguely kidney shaped.
Some herbalism (the doctrine of signatures for instance) is unsupportable. My point remains that we learned over time what herbs did work for what ailments. Do you acknowledge what I already mentioned about how much of our present pharmacopia derives from plants?
I am not "trusting" of the superior knowledge and experience of those who have put in the time and study to understand medical plants. It is not a matter of "trust". They demonstrably know more and I bow to their opinion in these matters. As should you if you haven't done the work they have. I still use refined drugs for medicine first, when available, but I would be grovellingly grateful if far from civilization , injured and depending on them.
Returning to "drawing toxins". My intent was to show the predisposition of some to believe undesirable substances in the body could be extracted by "drawing -as was believed by many prior to modern medicine could be accomplished by the use of poultices.
Now I ask you, is this insistence on the precise meaning of every term of our discussion in good faith,with an eye to the honest exchange of information and ideas - or do you have another purpose?
Every time I see these on T.V. I have an overwhelming desire to buy them for random friends.
I have no idea why.
You seem to think this equates to evidence that "herbalism" is a valid and efficacious form of medical treatment. It is not. The fact that some plants contain pharmacologically active chemicals is not an endorsement of the non-scientific practice of prescribing "herbs" based on the whims and caprices of herbalists. It doesn't matter if some plants can be useful if the herbalist doesn't know which is which--and they don't because herbalists and alternative medicine practitioners eschew the kind of controlled, double blind testing can can tell us if certain "herbs" are efficacious in the way they are claimed to be.
A good primer on this subject can be found here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6
There, Steven Novella writes about "The Plant vs Pharmaceutical False Dichotomy."
Now, as to my "is this insistence on the precise meaning of every term of our discussion." Well, yes. If we are going to talk about science then we should be accurate--especially when we are talking about pseudo scientific claims that often hide in equivocal terms. Your attempt to exchange "draws out toxins" for "killing bacteria so the bodies natural defenses can clean it up by exuding dead white cells etc." is one such example. Toxins and infections are entirely different and the conflation of such is the kind of casual errancy that is common in pseudo science and frauds.
Your latest statement, "My intent was to show the predisposition of some to believe undesirable substances in the body could be extracted by "drawing -as was believed by many prior to modern medicine could be accomplished by the use of poultices." is much more tenable since you couch it in the frame of what was believed (in error) rather than falsely supposing it, as you did earlier, as an old belief that is still valid.
Precision is important. Otherwise we are likely not even talking about the same thing. One could have an "honest" exchange of ideas without clear language but that "honesty" would be wasted since the discussion would lose its meaning once any attempt at precision of meaning is abandoned. Would you have such a discussion with a doctor? Would you try and argue that toxins and infection are the same thing and treating one is the same as the other? Only an idiot with a death wish would try that. Yet you propose we do so when talking about the same issue in the abstract--quite untenable.
Well, Skep is perhaps being too pedantic in his/her defense of skepticism, but I must admit I prefer that to a similar defense of quackery. And I am giving extra credit for the oblique Head-On joke in #23. (As long as I'm not wrong about the forehead having the thinnest skin of the body.)
Anyway, the fact is that even the basic claims made in the ads for these pads simply don't make sense. And that's enough to put the burden of proof on the believers. Note I didn't say the burden is on the sellers, because I'm sure they will dodge any attempt to force proof out of them. Which should be another big clue about their quackery. The ads draw on nuggets of truth, half-truths, common misunderstandings, and old wives' tales to be just believable enough to sucker in those who don't stop to apply a bit of common sense (directly to forehead).
Quite a fatiguing standard, more suited for the debating arena than a casual forum. Very well.
regarding herbalists; a practitioner of herbalism is not a medical doctor. Nor do many claim to be. They are people who know something of the properties of plants and how they interact with the human system. This is knowledge acquired by study as well as by direct empirical experience. They may not always be right,but they are also not always wrong.
Rather like conventional western doctors in that regard. Your complete dismissal of them as totally ignorant and relying on whims and caprices is not supportable in fact. Quite apart from the herbal practitioners of the industrialized world, there are medicine men throughout the planet that get results using traditional plant medicines. They may not have arrived at their treatments by a rigorous scientific method with full-on control protocol, but millennia of trial and error also add up.
Modern medicine is still my preference for my own treatment but I would never dismiss utterly all that led up to it. If you were stranded in the Amazon and infested with parasites, would you turn up your nose at what the locals had to offer? If their medicine doesn't work at all, how do you explain their very existence?
I recommend you read Wade Davis' "One River". Perhaps an ethnobotanist can convince you.
Er, the same way I explain the existence of, say, gazelles. The existence of gazelles is not evidence of efficacious of gazelle witch doctors.
Hmm, let's say "death vs. roll the dice." Yes, indeed, high praise for native medicine if one would accept it under those oh so artificially constructed circumstances.
Herbalists have been around for thousands of years. Clearly this explains the high level of medical knowledge before the age of modern science and how herbalists learned to cure polio and treat whooping cough and cancer. No, wait. Under herbalism, medicine stagnated since herbalists used a hodgepodge of "wisdom" to select herbs for treatment.
It is true that I have painted herbalists with broad strokes for which there may be exceptions, and yet those are the exceptions. Don't be too impressed with those thousands of years of experience. Such experience also confirmed the geocentric universe and humeric medicine. Keep in mind that all the bunk medicine of the past and the present is steeped in the "empirical evidence" of the practitioner--also known as anecdotal evidence. They all thought/think their medicine works, too.
Science is a method of systematically studying the world around us that helps us gather facts and create theories with predictive value. Science helps us separate what is true from what merely appears to be true (*cough*herbalisim*cough*)
Now back to one of your earlier howlers:
Of course you are "trusting" them. You trust that they have the "superior" knowledge you think they have. However, you make a grave mistake if you presume "more knowledge" is better. That would be true if the knowledge were accurate knowledge, but that is the key. More data isn't better data, better data is better data. More bad data isn't a plus, its a minus.
Your claim that these herbalists have "superior" knowledge is argument by assertion. If herbalists were into genuine science then they wouldn't be called herbalists.
Your suggestion that I should "bow" to them, whether figuratively or literally, is presumptive in the extreme.
I wish I could accept the credit :-) Indeed a HeadOn joke would have been nice, but alas I did not think of it.
Indeed, though, the some of your thinest skin can be found on your head: your eyelids. However, what may be the thinest skin I tried to merely imply in context rather than risk being indelicate.
"Under herbalism, medicine stagnated"?
Tell me now,just where did modern medicine leap full blown from? Knowledge accumulates. The scientific method is a logical extension of trial and observation.
You repeatedly deny that the application of plant preparations ever did any medical good in the history of the race, prior to the applicator wearing a white coat. I do not see any logic here. Ignoring evidence doesn't make it go away.
Past a point, certainty becomes laughable arrogance. You are obvious well enough acquainted with formal fallacies of argument to know you have stepped out of bounds. I invite you to rephrase and condense your position.
That wasn't my claim. My claim was "Science replaced false presumptions with provable explanations and sound predictions that have revolutionized our ability to treat disease."
The foundations of modern science have been long and slow in coming. But it wasn't until recently that modern scientific medicine really took off. Among the greatest discoveries were the germ theory of disease and anesthesia. Now, scientific medicine offers us an understanding of the human body at a molecular level--a process that is ongoing.
Science can treat cancer, diabetes, total hear failure. We have created vaccines that prevent diseases that killed millions, like polio and whooping cough. And we know that one of the most important issues in developing countries is insuring a supply of clean, germ free water. From advanced to simple solutions, science helps apply our efforts with a purpose and demonstrable results.
Now, describe to me the great advances in herbalism over--I'll be generous-- the last two thousand years? And, no, derivatives like digitalis don't count because herbalists don't use them.
Quote me where I ever said that. I'll wait...oh, never mind. You can't because I didn't.
What I have said is that herbalism is haphazard. That it's no good having efficacious herbs when you use them indiscriminately with all the other herbs at your disposal which you think are efficacious but are not, especially in "personalized" herbalism where the herbalist gives each patient a customized mix of herbs.
But, wait, customized is good right? Not if it isn't based in sound reason. Take a librarian who gives you a customized collection of books to take home. Great! She knows a lot about books and its custom! Er, except she doesn't know which books are any good because she doesn't believe in reading. She just looks at the covers and decides based on the colors and shapes which book to give you. That is literally the basis for many herbal remedies--the appearance of the herb. (But, don't try and take the librarian analogy too far because unlike the effects of drugs on disease, the enjoyment of books is subjective and you can easily rate which ones you like. Drug effects have to be tested, differently, to separate what you think works from what actually works.)
Laugh all you want. I'd be more impressed if you could come up with some arguments that stand up to careful reading.Anyways, it isn't so much arrogance as impatience with apologists for pseudo-science. Oh, sure, you are only half way there, but still it is annoying. Herbalist vs. magic foot pad huxter. They are both part of the non-evidence based faux medicine tradition. Once you throw out evidence-based standards, all bets are off and there is no meaningful way to delineate efficacious medicine from claptrap.
The bottom line, though, is that the magic pads are bunk and are part of a larger field of fraudulent medical treatment--to which most alternative medicine is related. Medicine which may have some efficacious treatments but indiscriminately co-mingles them with a larger majority of inefficacious treatments is not good medicine just as a stopped analog clock isn't a good clock just because it happens to be "right" twice a day.
IMO.
For those of you who enjoy sci-fi, there's a great novel that's somewhat relevant to this discussion: Celestial Matters by Richard Garfinkle. The notion of bodily humours made me think of it. Sadly out of print, but well worth digging for. It's based on the premise that what the ancient Greeks and Chinese believed about the universe and the body were actually true. It's billed as "a novel of alternate science." It's hard sf, if the science in question is crystal spheres, humours, alchemy, xi, and all sorts of other things that are today viewed as quaint primitive beliefs. The characters also commune with and are inspired by various gods (like, for real). Yes, I know it sounds like it could be utter trash, but Garfinkle builds a great and poignant action story out of all this. It all hangs together wonderfully - the story couldn't happen without the alt science.
Anyway, it might be a nice break from all this modern science and belief! =)
Anybody ever heard of chelation therapy?
Wow...
A lot of skept, no first-hand experience -
I am more apt to believe the debunk from someone who actually fell for this. Has anyone here even tried it before?
Then I have some magic beans to sell you...
Assuming that the magic pads work--even though they contradict known science--is really not the rational default position to take. Keep in mind that many products that don't actually produce physiological effects--*cough*homeopathy*cough*--can convince people to believe their condition is improved even though objective standards of measurement such as tumor size stay the same. Thus, feedback and anecdotes from credulous users are likely to be misleading rather than enlightening.
Instead, one should demand scientific proof for the extraordinary claims made in the infomercial. If you are going to sell a product that you claim performs magical feats then the onus is on you to prove that it works rather than on the consumer to prove that it does not.
In defense of herbs and chinese medicine I feel I should add a few things. First of all almost every study looking at acupuncture shows that it is more effective than no treatment. A recent study showed that for lower back pain the outcomes were twice as good as western pharms and physical therapy. There is debate as to what the mechanism of action is. Contrary to prior assertions, there have been studies showing the efficacy of certain acupoints over other ones. Ex. St 36 increases stomach acid secretion, and stimulating Bl 67 with moxa or needle increases the chance that an inverted fetal position will right itself before delivery. This has been well documented by good research.
Looking at herbs, lets just start with a few common ones that a lot of us know.
Ginger- very spicy and hot, warming on a cold day, helps an upset stomach, good for nausea. Works very well.
Poppy seedhusk shells- Indicated for diarrhea, severe cough, or pain.
Mint-Good for itchy eyes, sore throught, clears sinuses.
Ma Haung (contains ephedra)-opens the lungs, indicated for ashtma and certain colds
Cannibis seads- softens stoole
This isn't magic or witchcraft or anything guys. No need to freak out, its just about not throwing away knowledge that was built over the millenia. This stuff works well. These herbs I think we all know and can verify ourselves, work as indicated. I have found that all chinese herbs that I've tested have worked as indicated.
As far as the idea that if it looks like a kidney it must be good for kidneys. I think you are missing what is going on. Think about having to memorize thousands of herbs, you need to associate them with the function so that you can remember it. Its like a rosarch test, you could see lots of things in the shape or color of any given herb, but you decide to say it looks like a kidney as a way of remembering its function. There are lots of kidney shaped things that are not herbs. They only use the ones that work, and then make the association, kidney in that case.
Speaking of kidneys, I had a kidney stone last year, tried both western medicine and chinese medicine. The herbs I took worked better than the western pharmaceuticals in promoting urination and relaxing smooth muscle. The stone moved at a faster rate with the herbs vs the western meds. Passed the stone without having to get my kidneys blasted which would have increased my risk of hypertension and diabetees. So in my case chinese medicine gave me a better outcome than what was possible with western medicine.
Thanks for the tip on the pads. I agree I am not sure if they work or not. That long tube that cooked spaghetti in 5 minutes didn't work for %^&$@. I cooked spaghetti that was like chewing tire rubber.
I do want to defend herbs and alternative medicine to some degree. When you sweat you do release toxin and chemicals in your body. It is not only salt water. I am not saying it is the only way, but when you jog you are sweating out alot of toxins through your pours and skin. I am almost sure of this one. There is a reason you sweat, it is extremely necessary for the function of your body.
However, Ambesol is medicine right? Over 1/2 of the compound that makes up Ambesol is Clove Oil. Clove Oil is extremely strong and extremely potent and if I have a bad toothache I would use that over Ambesol anyday. Ambesol is just watered down Clove Oil. Oh yes, Clove is a herb. The only down side is that Clove Oil has a very nasty taste to it, but it will numb your toothache a million times better than Ambesol ever could. With Ambesol I still feel the pain.
I am not saying these pads work, I don't know the science or whatever behind them, or the lack of science. All that I am saying is that you shouldn't compare the pads to all of herbal medicine. Saying herbal medicine is all witchcraft. Alot of modern medicine comes from herbal medicine.
And as for Acupuncture. I think it has to do something with the pressure points and the nerve endings. Certain nerve endings are attached to parts of your body. For ex. when some people eat cold ice cream they get an instant headache.
Sailors use to get scurvy because they didn't eat enough oranges.
Hello, The difference between natural and synthetic as far as government regulation is the government can never control nature's ingrediants to make a profit. That is when they started making synthetic drugs. The synthetic drugs, say cold medicine, make a cold last longer while dulling the symptoms. When your body gets a cold it is low on the natural vitamins and minerals that your body needs to stay healthy,(You know the "chemicals" you get from fruit and vegetables)not synthetic chemicals. Water,(preferably alkaline 7.0 or above) is needed to help process your system. Thats right your body is healthy if it is kept in an alkaline ph balance. Not all vegetables and fruits are alkaline, and an acid ph and also synthetic chemicals will only keep you unhealthy. Refined processed sugar is also the body's enemy. The body needs nothing of it and it wastes more of your body's recourse to process it.
Dharma is either a patent liar or totally ignorant of how trials are conducted... the trial he alludes to was a comparison of sham acupuncture vs acupuncture and paracetamol for back pain in patients who had absolutely no relief using medicine and its technology.
The sham acupuncture produced the same result as real acupuncture and paracetamol helped 20% of those test subjects. This was reporteed as easten traditional acupuncture (sham and real) is superior to western based practices. That is a south park episode in the making.
But to be real honest.. people quite often say that western trials of acupuncture are unfair (does that mean western acupunture practitioners are nincompoops?) you should look to China. China is that place where people dont have controls about sterility of their equipment.. look to the journals for yourselves.
Can anyone tell me when acupuncture as we know it really started? I have a nasty feeling that its a heck of a lot more modern than we think.. almost Hahnemanesque