Amnesty's Unsubscribe Me video reenacts CIA stress-position torture
Amnesty International's "Unsubscribe Me" campaign invites us to unsubscribe from the use of torture in fighting the "war on terror;" to tell the world's governments that torture cannot be done in our name. As part of the campaign, they've released an incredibly moving and disturbing video reenacting a CIA-approved "stress position" torture taken straight out of a CIA interrogation manual. In order to make the film, the directors put the actor into a stress position for six hours -- the whimpers and trembling we see are real, the anguish you feel even when you choose to do this, let alone when you are kidnapped and subjected it for weeks, months or years. Amnesty is making two more videos and then doing a theatrical release for all three. We will never be made free by adopting the tactics of dictatorships. Link
That's one of the key problems of American foreign policy, as I see it. IANA foreign policy expert, but as I see it, not only can we not be free by acting like undemocratic countries, it encourages groups struggling for liberation in other areas of the world to be ambivalent about democracy. If you have a choice between being tortured by your local dictator or being tortured by the world's leading democracy, what's the diff?
"the world's leading democracy", Vincent?
'undemocratic countries' aren't always torturous countries either.
I think the ad should somehow explain how long the guy has been there.
Right now, you don't get the sense that it's six hours.
They should also explain that the detainee is told the floor is electrified or that he will be shot if he moves.
Right now -- it's very powerful, don't get me wrong -- I just think they should add the phrase "waiting for the guard....FOR SIX HOURS."
It's important to note that this kind of treatment has only ever been used on a handful of very high value terrorists.
This video is much more about smearing America then it is about ending this type of treatment.
The key problem of the American foreign policy are the double standards they are using - and constantly re-defining what actually is torture.
America still claims to be "the Land of the Free" and a democracy, yet it still has the death penalty and uses torture as a means to extract information.
And refuses to call it by it's name.
Torture never leads to useful information, people will confess to anything.
It's rather curious to watch how fast one can become what one despises the most.
Well, as Benjamin Franklin said:
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."
@ Kevitivity:
"It's important to note that this kind of treatment has only ever been used on a handful of very high value terrorists."
Can you tell us what you're basing that statement off of?
I would certainly prefer that to be the case... but from all the reports I have heard from Amnesty International and others, acts like this and worse have been done to a very broad range of detainees, including those who have not had a fair trial and are now known to be innocent.
If innocent people are being tortured in our names, I want it investigated and stopped. Don't you?
@#4, Kevitivity: I'd prefer to know what terms like 'handful' and 'high value terrorist' actually mean before leaping to the the conclusion that it's important to note a sentence containing them. Do you know?
Presumably there's a cut off point at which the value of the terrorist is so high that 'this kind of treatment', as your charming euphemism has it, is no longer of any value. How else can one explain the absence of it during the interrogation of, say, Saddam Hussein?
Yes, Kevitivity, do you have anything to back up that statement, or is this just want you want to believe?
Hardly looks like torture to me. If it's taking us 6+ hours to get information from these guys, we certainly do need to change our methods.
Kevitivity, it shouldn't be used on anybody.
@Kevitivity
I would argue that defending your nation's propensity for torture does more to smear its reputation than an Amnesty International video could.
Oh dear god, you mean those American b@stards are....forcing people to squat?!?
What's next, The Comfy Chair???
Sorry to have to tell you this, Kevitivity, but the more reliable sources say the use of torture is widespread.
Scythe000, are you that shallow, or did you not actually read the entry, or are you volunteering to try it yourself next? Avar1ce, the same goes for you.
Feel free to correct me if your impression is wrong, but if we're not getting quick results, it's because torture doesn't work as an intelligence-gathering device. Just for the record, I know that because I've repeatedly had it explained to me by a couple of professional military interrogators.
The ONLY Country Convicted of the International Crime of State Active Terrorism By the World Courts:
The Good Ole U S of A .
Nikos: In 1980 the World Court convicted the USA of 'unlawful use of force' in regards to actions taken in Nicaragua. Is there any relationship between this charge and terrorism? Some research shows that Noam Chomsky makes the same claim you do, but I'd like to see where 'unlawful use of force' is actually equated with terrorism in international law.
How can they criticize torture? Don't they
love America?
I'm with you, Kevitivity.
@ AVAR1CE
"Hardly looks like torture to me." That's because you haven't even started to think how that feels. That comment denotes no attempt to even trying to understand why that's inhumane.
Those comments mirror plenty of ignorance.
A British Intelligence Commander, once said during the cold war that "hitting a man is the act of a coward, besides being primitive".
The bizarre attempted justification of torture, that it gets usable results out of hardened terrorists is actually wrong.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866
so it is not only barbaric, but plainly worthless. Interrogators have known this for years. Torture does yield confessions but they are useless, as anyone would confess to anything under torture.
@TNH - Torture is not used to extract information, it's used to *impart* information. It lets the victim know just how helpless and powerless they are; it tells the public how "serious" the US is about terra and security. Look how effective it is at winning the hearts and minds of little Walter Mittys like Avar1ce and Kevitivity. They eat this tough-guy stuff up with a spoon.
Peaceflag, if you take the trouble to read the text below the movie window you will see that they do indeed tell you it took place over six hours.
Also, as I recall, torture has been recognized for centuries as being of no real interrogation value. And again, if I recall properly, it has also been outlawed by just about all 'civilized' nations for as long. This is exactly what was routinely done by many of the people reviled as the most evil people in history, yet now our government is claiming not only is it not torture, but that it's necessary? Good grief!
This looks much less harsh than the 200 lashes that Saudi rape victim is set to receive. Here's the link for that story, in case anyone missed it.
How else are they going to get us to internalise the panoptic gaze?
Donating to Amnesty gets more and more important each day. That was one powerful movie and hopefully it'll help at least raise some eyebrows.
Though I agree more text should be displayed indicating why he's on the box and dares not leave it as well as the timeframe involved.
Mad props to the poor volunteer on the box, though.
The thought that this is used on anybody is sick. And seriously, wouldn't someone just say any damn thing to get away? What possible assurances are there to indicate this facilitates a real answer as opposed to a contrived one made under duress?
Osinoche We join in War.
Something tells me that not only have you not joined any wars lately, but you press down on the gas pedal a little harder, and perhaps entirely unconsciously, when you pass a recruiting station.
@#22, Yurei: It is indeed depressing to think that a country with a human rights record as deplorable as Saudi Arabia was certified by President Bush as an ally in the 'war on terror' on October 19th of this year.
Or were you trying to say something else entirely?
See, you're not paying attention. The Western Way for hundreds of years has been to condemn torture. You are advocating the Terrorist Way. Why do love the Terrorist Way so much?
The problem, Osinoche, is what constitutes a "correct" answer. The techniques involved have been used to secure confessions. I hardly know how you can apply the scientific method to something like that.
Equally, again, if the information involved was "correct", you would let the prisoner go? Sure. They have a "bona-fide" terro-rist. They won't release them at that point. And if the information is along the lines of "The important guys meet here." and the important guys left by the time he said so, should they continue torturing him to find out more things?
What you fail to realize is that by performing these atrocities, you not only get questionable info, you validate the hatred these people have for you in the first place. You breed more hatred and, as such, more terrorists who wish to see you dead.
This heavy handedness is making those involved no better then those they torture. As such, it's a shorter psychological trip to push someone into fanatical support of "those who oppress us".
Of course torture doesn't work as an intelligence-gathering device. They use it for more ominous reasons. After reading much about Canadian Rendition Victim Maher Arar it became apparent to me why they torture people. They use torture to extract false confessions and then use these confessions as justification for the War on Terror. Rendition victims are forced to sign statements saying they are members of the mostly fictional world-wide terror network Al-Qaeda, or they are forced to implicate others as members of said Terror Network. For example, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi's false confession, saying Iraq had WMDs and links with Al-Qaeda, were used as justification for the war in Iraq.
Another reason they torture is that they get off on it. It makes them feel strong to cause suffering. It makes them feel like they are getting revenge on the "evil-doers."
For those on this forum who seem to think torturing people is somehow justifiable I say to you, seek a mental health provider. You've got serious issues to deal with. You don't understand the difference between right and wrong which is a major cornerstone of sanity. When your ideals are in line with some of the most horrid regimes in history, you might want to take a look inside yourself and figure out where it all went wrong.
@#31, OsiNoche: I do hope you're not claiming to speak for the US Army National Guard. One weekend a month my ass.
Osinoche, you sir, are very effective at bringing bile to my mouth. Quite the troll thy be.
I would seriously like to know where you get this idea of "If we keep it under a million people, it's cool."
Yeah, I'll go kill my neighbor and eat his flesh now. I ain't doing it to lots of people, so it's okay, right?
And why tha hell would we leave it to our children? We should make an example for our children and stop this foolishness now. They can't fix it after we've farked it all up, can they?
You are either trolling for the sake of trolling or you are the biggest and worse kind of fool.
Forget not what this "war" is supposedly fought against. "Terror"(though I fail to see how one wages war against an abstract noun).
These terrorists get their motivations from propaganda artists who are finding it exceedingly easier day by day to villainize the west. If we do these kinds of things to them, what chance to we have of convincing their brothers and offspring(if they are too far gone into fanaticism) that we aren't these baby eating asshats that we're portrayed as being(well...most of us...you seem to be walking the line, however).
Regardless of how you feel about torture, the war, etc. you've got to admit that is a pretty disturbing film.
@33 -- The things you learn online! I didn't realize there was a minimum number of offenses that "add up" to atrocity.
I thought it was like "a little bit pregnant." Only with more screaming, and more dishonor to the nation.
S gvn th chc btwn trtrng trrrst nd mrdrng 1000 ppl, whch wld y chs? Bcs by nt btnng th nfrmtn n th bmb mkng fclts, y mght wll b sntncng 1000 ppl t dth.
r mr.
It's an absolutely false choice, Realcatholicmen. As has been proven again and again and again, torture is not a reliable means of getting information. Your choice is false: the choice is actually between letting 1000 people die, or torturing one suspect and letting 1000 people die.
And even this fantasyland scenario has to assume that you have absolutely verifiable knowledge that there is a bomb (and you won't) and that you are absolutely sure that your suspect knows where it is (and you won't).
Osinoche, the same Osinoche who posts on Occultforums and RPGNet? The 23 year-old restaurant manager from Birmingham Alabama? Stop fronting like you're some tough guy. It is clear you're only a kid who is struggling with his identity and occasionally has trouble with his D-Link router. Go start a racist fifty-year war somewhere else please.
Osinoche-
If your service was 'a long time ago', then I suppose I represent one of your 'children', coming of age in a legacy of shame. I registered for Selective Service six months after September 11th, when I turned 18. Since then, I've grown more and more disgusted by the treatment of my country, a nation I cannot look on with pride when people like you justify these crimes in my name.
I find your position revolting - that ineffective methods with no end but sadism and cruelty are justified by a 'war' whose basis is dubious at best. Do not dare try to fob off the disgusting actions you support on me and my contemporaries. Your future calls it wrong. Your future holds you in contempt.
-JW
People, don't be so quick to dismiss torture. Think of the trolls in this thread. Now think of them armed with a bomb. That's a terrorist.
Not so immoral, now, is it?
#40: Really? How embarassing - I fell for a troll. New to forums myself - anyone who makes a HOWTO for troll-spotting would have my gratitude.
@#38, RealCatholicMen: The Jack Bauer gambit! And not a moment too soon. That'll shut these whining liberals up.
@ RealCatholicMen
Life is not an episode of 24.
There are very real problems with the theory you're operating under. Read up on Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi if you don't understand that, or the abduction of Maher Arar.
@RealCatholicMen, Osinoche and all others trying to justify this. I don't care if you are trolls or not.
I remember watching TV before the invasion of Iraq. News reporters talked on and on about the torture chambers of Saddam Hussein. They condemned his sadistic methods to gain information and install fear into rebels, insurgents and others who opposed his rule. I remember it was a big point in the American justification towards the war.
I am utterly amazed by the perversion of your values. Torture does not "preserve" the western way. The western way is civilized society. The western way is treating people justly and fairly, even if they are the most vile people on earth. These torturous methods reduce us, what is supposed to be the shining light of equality and freedom, to the levels of the terrorists we loathe.
And the fanciful idea that these methods actually gain any important information is cute. The reality is that these methods gain little to no useful information because anyone will say anything when they are subjected to endless amounts of torture and the threat of death. Any possible true information is washed away in a sea of lies from countless forced confessions.
As for the torture one terrorist or save 1000 situation. How many foreign terrorist attacks on the US soil have happened in the past ten years? one. If we stop torturing people the floodgates are not going to open and we will descend into chaos. But tell me, what happens when that one terrorist is released? He tells one, ten, a hundred people what we did to him. Those people, angry at us, tell more and more. The circle of hate stretches. You know what that leads to? That leads to chaos in US-Ally Pakistan and a nuke headed for Israel. Despite what 24 tells you, torture does have lots of negative consequences.
Also anyone who claims that this is not painful has apparently never had to do anything like this in their life. I had to do a similar activity for athletics in high school. It's complete hell and I didn't have to do it for hours on end.
I live in New York City. I was here on 9/11 and I watched the towers fall. I come from a family of paramedics and firefighters. I lost friends and much of my family spent hours sorting through the debris at Ground Zero. My heart hurts for the scar left on our nation, but this is not the way to seek justice.
As a side note, does anyone else think it ironic that a man calling himself a Christian would advocate torture?
Sadly, I think it's past the tipping point with the discussion of whether or not the US should embrace torture, with the thin edge being the waterboarding hairsplitting. Watch for the procedure in play on reality tv shows next year, getting voters even more comfortable with the idea.
And @Vincent, I'm afraid 'world's leading democracy' is a laughable misnomer. Democracies don't settle elections in courts by forcing a stop to recounts. It's a neo-monarchy, and has been since '01.
Malex @47: Must be old-school Catholic, thinks Torquemada was a whining librul.
The Bush Crime Syndicate, like any crime syndicate will of course resort to physical torture when and where possible. I mean, we are dealing with criminals here. The lowest types of human beings. Thugs torture people, plain and simple. Don't expect them to behave differently. Unfortunately, there are always going to be plenty of broken and damaged people who are willing to ignore all rational argument in order to get their immolation of human flesh on and act at torturers or torture supporters. Seems as if a few have already popped up here on boingboing.
Logic and rational thought are functions of the higher brain, while the desire to "squish someone's guts out" issues from the limbic system. Therefore, you can't appeal to the purile torturer or torture enabler with a reasoned argument any more than you could to a 3 year old who enjoys smearing feces about.
Quite tragically, history has proven again and again that within each human population there are enough sick people who can be recruited easily enough to go around chopping off the limbs and heads of other humans when conditions are just right. Women, children, babies, aged, innocents of all stripes--it doesn't seem to matter to the sick pups seeking shameful and selfish gratification. It is pointless to reason with these individuals.
In fact, ironically enough, to diffuse all of the guilt pleasure they get from being evil, they cannot be treated as though they are evil. They must be treated as though they are sick, and humanely so.
Gvn scty tht blvs n pc nd fls thy mst hv "ncrn chsr" ftr vn >rdng bt n nsvry sttn, nd gvn tht ths scty s fcng n nmy wh wldn't bt n y t cttng ff ll f yr fngrs nd chkng y t dth wth thm, w cm t rl dlmm:
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f w lv r nms ngh wll thy gv p thr drms f rlgs nd cnmc dmntn? r wll w jst b sgnng p fr nw mstr bcs w n lngr hv th hrt t rsst?
'd lk nthng bttr thn wrld pc; th prblm s t tks mr thn n sd wntng t.
Osi Noche, you're just a troll. 27 and "I served my time, long ago"? You were a boy scout? First person to buy a copy of Quake 3? Lives are cheap, buy one.
Torture is not a part of Christianity, turn the other cheek is. Love thy neighbour is. Torture is part of brutalism.
Go away.
@Osinoche
Torture is most assuredly NOT a part of Christianity. In fact violence towards your neighbor is exactly the opposite of what Christianity originally intended. What it is is a complete distortion of Christian values into extreme ideals. Kind of like a religion you apparently loathe: Islam.
>But just because one such as yourself is to squeamish to see the truth. To see the light of day, that an enemy such as the Mid Easter Menace, must be eradicated. Every child either re memed or erased. Ideals, Islam in it's less moderate force must be stamped Out.
You are a hypocrite. Extremist Christian views are perfectly legitimate but extremist Islamic views are justification for treating people like dogs.
Also I do not understand your justification for torture. Protect freedom and the western way of life? Torture doesn't protect freedom, it installs fear and doubt among people. Lowering ourselves to the barbaric level of our "enemy" doesn't exactly help preserve the western way of life either.
Well, Realcatholcmen,
There is no question that there are bad people in the world who wish to do wicked, wicked things.
The unicorn chaseer, if there is one, is in imagining that a systematic program of torture might be able to prevent them from harming others.
DO you honestly think that there is a known way to stop a suicide bomber? Is there a way to stop a demented American from picking up a gun and then opening fire on a crowd? How many times has this happened? If we had tortured a certain amount of people, it wouldn't have been prevented.
And don't forget that by most people's reckoning, we aren't supposed to be in Iraq (where we are capturing these people). How would you respond if Arabs or Muslims invaded America and were rolling tanks every night in your neighborhood?
Would it matter if they told you it was to bring you peace and freedom and democracy? Would you be excused for fighting back? This torture label can just be bandied about as if everyone should expect that you mean someone with brown skin who calls Allah their God. But who the fuck are the terrorists? What makes someone a terrorist?
When our bombs land on schools or on churches, it is never a terrorist attack, is it? It is always an accident. It is not for oil or some other gain that we are so valiantly trying to bring
"democracy" to the Iraq and the middle east. Oh no, OUR motives are pure. We are civilized, and they are barbaric, right?
Our guns and our bombs have killed far more innocent Iraqis than Arab bombs or guns have killed Americans--probably by a 100 fold--yet they are the terrorists and we are civilized?
WE have slaughtered entire villages. We have ruined countless civilizations and cultures. Don't think for one second we haven't. WE have as much blood on our hands (our wicked leaders, that is) as any ruler in the Arab world ever did.
You have to see the other side as just as human as you are, because they are, whether you like it or not. Killing and torturing will not lead to less death, only to more. Mark my words. On the other hand, when people are treated with compassion and kindness, they respond in kind. These things are very predictiable. I've personally never seen it not work and I've been in situations to be judge of such a thing.
So we decide to follow things like the Geneva convention (which even Hitler followed, if I'm not mistaken), international law, Christian ethics, etc, you regard this as capitulation? It is they, not we, who are under attack. We spend more on war and weapons of war than all other countries combined. We are supposed to believe that a country as poor as Iraq is somehow a threat? If we give up torture are we surrendering? Is this about the all too familiar intransigent, dominant male monkey ethos which does not allow either side to budge because a line has been drawn in the sand? God that get's so old.
The real threat stems from our own paranoia and our willingness to be tricked and duped by our so-called leaders. Remember the 40 year cold war era? It was a huge scam, man! They over blew the Soviet threat in order to line their pockets through their financial connections in the defense industrial complex. When are people going to catch on to this bullshit is what I wonder. Or is fear the trick that keeps on tricking?
If there are terrorists, so what? I figure the worst they can do is kill you. Since you're going to die anyway, may as well live your life as something other than a coward. No point in living your life defined by overly developed concern over them.
Osi,
I bid you stay. Express your point of view. You think the Arabs should be wiped out? Anything else? Here's my question for you--should we eradicate them humanely, or should we make them suffer horrible deaths? Which are you in favor of?
If they should die horribly, do you feel like expressing exactly how? Go on now, say if it will make you feel better.
Thanks for sharing, Osi. It takes a certain amount of courage, I imagine to express such an unpopular point of view. Would you care to tell the rest of us how you became so brave?
Also, I was wondering in what cases we might spare a child or a woman? What standard should we go by?
If I believed for a moment that you were genuinely able to back up ANYTHING you say as true, I'd feel more than happy to have you participate. As you've already misrepresented yourself and are hiding behind a pseudonym while spouting narrow-minded gibberish, I don't have that feeling.
And, I'm not sure what part of Christianity you are part of but I'm fairly certain Christ himself would excommunicate you for your genocidal statements.
Osi,
Tell me the truth...are you a high-school aged guy maybe sitting around a computer with a few friends, maybe smoking a little weed pulling a good ole American Thanksgiving day prank to get everyone riled up for some kind of laugh? C'mmon, fess up?
How about revealing your identity? I mean, you were the one who was talking about not being squeamish. You must be proud of who you are, right? Let the world know how you feel about the Arabs!
Ones identity is not something that is "private". Anyway, who should be entitled to privacy these days? We need the governemnt spying on everyone to ensure that the terrorists don't destroy our way of life and our superior Western/Christian values. Only the devil and the Muslim terrorists need to hide in secrecy, so out with it Osinoche, who are you really? State your name, age, (rank?) and occupation. What do you have to fear?
Additionally, I need to know that you're not just some pranking adolescent to be appropriately outraged by your comments. As long as I think you're still a teenager in highscholl I can't take your hating very seriously.
Group hug for Osinoche. Though he pushes everyone away with hatred, what he really needs is love. If only I could carress his furrowed brow. If only I could provide some succor for his troubled spirit...
Osinoche has a good point about Christianity being based on torture. What is the most popular movie about Jesus? The Passion. Almost every single minute of that movie has violence or torture in it. I know that Osinoche is a wise ass, but knowing what you know about Christians, Bush, and Revelation. Don't you think most Christians get a stiffy thinking about someone suffering just like their god? It is the clay feet of that religion and of most others.
Pyros, don't sweat him, he's getting his Warhammer 40k confused with current events.
Although he's operating as a pretty decent double agent/troll, since the ideas of Exterminatus aren't too far removed from the lovely wages of war offered by our more conservative friends.
I think it is just possible that Osinoche's political views, along with everything else he believes, might be tied to his trouble with the D-Link Router (as mentioned by Kaiser). I too had trouble with the D-Link Router and spent many fruitless hours trying to sort it out with someone with a thick foreign accent. By the time it was over I was ready to join some Western, Christian, Civilzed army (or private contractor organization)bent on a mission to rid the world of cocao leaves or even to erase entire civilizations. But after a few hours when I had a chance to sit down to a plate of girl scout cookies, a glass of milk, a re-run of Malcolm in The Middle, and a caron of Tarreyton's in my double-wide, I thought better of it.
There is always some trigger, isn't there?
So, Osinoche, was it the D-Link Router? If not this, what? Is it true that you are a 22 year old restaurant manager in Alabama?
If so, this comes as somewhat of a disappointment. I had imagined that you were a Yale humanities professor. Now that would have been much more interesting. So I guess you're right. Sometimes it's best not to know ones true identity.
One other question: if you occupy a low station in life, do you sometimes feel emasculated and powerless? DO you own guns or drive a truck/SUV? Are you also angry with Mexican immigrants? Do you believe in Jesus? Just asking.
Sometimes it's hard for me to tell whether I'm the troll, or whether I'm troll control.
I'd like to think that I'm the troll, but little Osi dumpling is not responding : (
Don't worry, Osi, I just reported myself to the authorities.
"Think of the trolls in this thread. Now think of them armed with a bomb. That's a terrorist. Not so immoral, now, is it?"
Uh...yes, Yes it is. Maybe you need to look up the definition of "immoral." Or were you joking? It's hard to tell sometimes....
"So given the choice between torturing a terrorist and murdering 1000 people, which would you choose?"
You've been watching too much TV. This is a fantasy scenario that you no doubt picked up from "24" or a Die Hard movie. The solution to this fantasy scenario is: "Bruce Willis comes in, guns blazing, and saves everybody."
In other words, the kind of false dichotomy we've had shoved down our throats ten times daily since way before 9/11, and twenty times a day since.
"This looks much less harsh than the 200 lashes that Saudi rape victim is set to receive."
What's your point? "We are far less sickening than they are, so it's OK"? Doesn't our using torture make the world safer for that kind of horrible behavior? You're not saying that torture is the way to combat the torturers, are you? 'Cause, um, that doesn't really make any sense.
I guess Osinoche has been eliminated by the authorities :( (Don't torture him!)
Pyros, if I thought there were any chance of Osinoche answering your questions, I would have waited longer before throwing him down the flaming oubliette.
Angstrom (19):
"Known this for years" doesn't begin to cover it. The Inquisition gave up torture, having noticed that confessions obtained under torture are absolutely worthless.Yurei (22), "what looks harsh" isn't the same thing as what will break a prisoner. Also, those lashes are punishment. They aren't intended to elicit information.
Kaiser (29), I wish I could argue with that.
RealCatholicMen (34), Jim Cowling's right: that's a false choice, as are all arguments based on the idea that torture might be justified if the information you're looking for is sufficiently important. It doesn't matter how hypothetically important it is. You can't get worthwhile information via torture, period.
JohnnyWeird (37), "Your future holds you in contempt" is a superlative line.
Oxdeadbeef (38), that's not a particularly good description of terrorists, and even if it were, it wouldn't justify torture.
RealCatholicMen (48), the measure of what's right for you to do is not the greatest evil you can imagine someone else might do. And isn't it more than a little bit strange to talk about enemies who are willing to do, like, anything, in a discussion of our willingness to employ torture?
I wouldn't point this out if you had a different user name, but we are enjoined to love our enemies.
It seems that many of you have forgotten the basic rules of dealing with a troll, please review the following:
1) Do not talk to the troll or about him.
2) Report the troll or utilize the moderation system in place
3) Continue on with real conversation.
**REMEMBER** The troll wins if the discussion is to or about him, irrespective of the discussion. The troll wants a reaction from you, thats it.
Advice for OsiNoche: Before you go on your genocidal, rivers of blood thing, run this by your parents, doctor and neighborhood police officer. They can help in ways you may not have thought about yet. Don't forget to tell them the part about the slaughtering, it'll go over huge, I promise.
Question for everyone else: Is this kid just talking big or does he pose a real threat to his community? It is pretty reckless to go on a public forum and openly say you want murder people. He's paranoid, delusional and wants to commit acts of violence. He sounds like another national tragedy waiting to happen.
Pyrs (51),
wsh hd gttn t rd snch's psts. hv n d wht hlf f ths thrd s n rply t. t ny rt, f trtr nvr wrks nd th ntl s lwys fk nnsns tht th prsn bng trtrd nvnts n rdr t stp bng trtrd, thn why d cntlss gvrnmnts d t? Why hs t srvvd th cntrs, ths mthd tht dsn't wrk? ncdtl tls f, "ths n tm, thr ws ths gy, nd t ddn't wrk n hm" s nt swpng prf.
sbmt t ds wrk, nd frqntly ngh fr qt lt f ppl t jstfy cntnng t d t.
My pstn n t s smthng lk ths:
sspct tht n gnrtn t f vry fw hs t bcm th mnstr s tht th nxt fw gnrtns dn't hv t. whl lt f ppl n Wrld Wr 2 dd drdfl thngs s tht th nxt gnrtns wldn't hv t. Lts hp t dsn't cm t tht scl gn. Th nmy cn d lt wrs thn kll m. Thy cld sm dy dstry wy f lf, s th Nzs trd t d glblly nd th Tlbn trd t d n fghnstn nd l'Qd trs t d whrvr thy cn.
Fr m t lv pcfl lf nd d (r b mrdrd) s n nncnt mn s nt th bst thng. Th bst thng s fr my chldrn t b bl t lv pcfl lf whr thy hv frdm f rlgn nd thy dn't hv t fght trrrsts bcs w lrdy dd t. f hv t trtr trrrst by mkng hm sqt n n ncmfrtbl pstn n rdr t fnd t wh's bv hm n th chn f cmmnd, 'd prbbly d t. s ths dmnbl ffns? Myb. 'll ccpt tht rsk f t mns ftr gnrtns cn cntn t hv thr frdms nd nvr b sbjct t Tlbn-sq ldrshp. Dn't thnk tht's n mpssbl ftr, thr -- tht wld b dngrsly nv thght.
Th "wr gnst trrr" s ptly nmd. t's nt wr gnst rq r fghnstn, t's wr gnst th phlsphy f trgtng cvlns t gt wht y wnt. t's crtclly mprtnt tht w wn ths wr, snc t ls t wll pt s t th mrcy f ppl wh d nt hv ny rgrd fr r frdms r r lfstyls. W'r fghtng ppl wh wld sht dwn Bng Bng f vr thy hd th pwr t d s (tht nd prbbly sht r cnvrt mst f s).
Tht sd, th ln ds hv t b drwn smwhr. Drwng nd qrtrng ppl w dn't lk s wy t fr. Sttng thm dwn n nc chr nd skng thm fw qstns bfr sndng thm ff t dnnr s nt fr ngh. Thr's ln wld drw, nd 'd pprntly drw t lt frthr dwn thn y.
Nt ls tht th Gnv cnvntn ppls t prsnrs f wr. Wr hs rls, ctlly. Th trrrst grps dn't bd by ny f th rls, s thy rn't ffrdd ny f th prtctns. s s t, lv thy nmy s nt th sm thng s syng, "Lt hm wn". gthr snch sttd htrd fr rbs n gnrl bfr dltng hs mssgs? Wll tht's nt th Chrstn wy. hv n grdg gnst rqs, mslms r slm n gnrl, bt d hv grdg gnst th mthd f pltcl nflnc knwn s "trrrsm" nd whlhrtdly spprt ts dft.
REALCATHOLICMEN,
Osi was advocating slaughtering most Muslims, blood running in the streets, etc... Shame his posts were deleted. He was nuttier than your average troll.
Is it a war, or not a war? It seems to flip between one and the other according to convenience. I guess that's the sort of situation you find yourself in when you declare war on a philosophy.
Realcatholicmen's theory that every few generations we are called upon to act like monsters so that our children might live peacefully, with their enemies safely crushed, is perhaps the scariest idea to come out of this discussion.
I think discussing the ideas of trollish posters feeds them. The best response is silence, they hopefully can't represent the majority. I would argue a refrain from talk about obviously dumb and combative posts. You won't change their ideas and just waste your valuable time posting. Spend your time, I would suggest, actively fighting the things you find offensive, like torture, in a more viable arena.
Like helping Amnesty or speaking with your votes.
REALCATHOLLICMEN,
The discussion or debate about whether we should or shouldn't torture seems to ride upon several ideas or assumptions that come to mind whenever the word "torture" is invoked. The mind rushes to a stock scenario of a malefactor having some critical information which he is unwilling to divulge. If only the prisoner would speak a squad of commandos would be put in to action to save some innocent children being held captive in the woods.
For even this Hollywood scenario to be plausible, the interrogators would have to somehow know for certain that the hostage had this valuable information in the first place, and this is the whole problem. How do you verify the truthfulness of any confession wrung by torture?
It is because of the very fact that some malefactors might have important strategic information that we need to stay away from torture.
The Israelis understand this probably better than anyone and have developed sophisticated interrogation techniques that don't rely on poking needles through people's eyes. They might use that method if it worked, but since their objective really is get information about sponsors of terror, etc. they know they have to have a far more sophisticated technique.
There are other problems as well with torture. There are some people who are able to withstand any and all kinds of torture. Torturing these individuals is the best way to ensure you will get no information whatsoever.
The other assumption that supporters MUST make is that we are 100% accurate in who we identify as a terrorist. If this absurdity cannot be maintained then the need-to-torture argument is prima facie busted.
But even a person with a small capacity for rational thought that in a foreign land where there is one Arabic translator for every 100 soldiers many innocent people wil be labled as "enemy combatants" or whatever the term may be.
This, in turn, means that we will end up torturing innocent people who are telling the truth when they say they don't know anything. But since we’ve already identified them as terrorists with potentially valuable information we will assume they are lying, right? And the stubborn liars will need to be tortured so that they will tell us what we want to know.
Since we know that most people will say anything to stop being tortured, these innocent people will begin to make up stories. Sometimes these stories will be completely false involving completely made-up people and scenarios which experienced interrogators will dismiss before bringing out the blow torch, and sometimes the false stories will seem true enough that they will be believed by interrogators.
Think about what happens when an innocent person starts to lie in order to avoid punishment. Once you understand this, you might change how you think on the matter.
How does an innocent person who is believed to be a terrorist tell a convincing lie? By adding lots of truth to it! After all, the more verifiable it is, the more likely it is that someone will believe it, right? If the innocent gives a name and location that can be cross-referenced in the Baghdad phone book then the innocent is one step closer to being believed and perhaps one step closer to getting sleep, a meal, relief from a stress position, etc.
In order to make the phony stories seem believable, the innocent will begin to add real details--maybe the names of people who have harmed him or his family in the past--members of other sects and religions--maybe even family members. Sometimes these stories will go over, and then more people will be rounded up in the torture campaign, and then these innocent people will start telling lies. Eventually a lot of people will be rounded up, everyone will be informing and people will be engaged in a profoundly tragic waste of human energy.
By this time, the torture campaign will be well established, and everyone involved in it will be self-deluding. Eventually the torture campaign is rendered useless for anything other than inflicting human misery and suffering.
This is but a simple and pedestrian illustration of how things can go quickly awry when you go down the torture road. Even if it were possible to imagine that the torture campaign started off with good intentions, it will quickly upend itself for the reasons given.
Torturing people is probably the most reliable way of getting unreliable information. Since the information is so unreliable, there needs to be a way to verify it, and if there were a way to verify it, you wouldn't need torture in the first place.
The matter is not as simple as one might think. I would suggest reading a few books on the most effective means of interrogating people, REALCATHOLICMEN. You might be surprised by what you find out. It would seem like torture would be effective, but you run in to unexpected complications.
There's a 100% chance that not a living sole has read all the way to the bottom of this, but if I am wrong, has anyone besides me notices that there is a conspicuous absence of the once plentiful "W" bumber stickers? I was out on the road the other day and I didn't see a one.
@72, Pyros:
Don't worry-- the "W: Still the President!" stickers are still around. After a measured observational study, I've taken to labeling a number of cars on the road as "BMW:Ws" - BMWs with the "W" sticker in the window.
By the way, I have nothing to add to the discussion on torture and the logical fallacies utilized; they've already been busted with gusto. Cheers, Pyros and others.
Interesting, even if flawed, criticism of Amnesty International in relation to its supposed double standards:
page 13 of http://www.ipa.org.au/files/review51-3.pdf
Don't we have fancy drugs for this anyway? I'm sure "truth serums" are exaggerated by Hollywood, but I seem to recall that they're pretty accurate in combination with sleep dep.
"How do we have peace when one side blah blah..."
Hopefully, cause we're smarter.
Hopefully.
Just because a 3 year old tries to kill you with a fork doesn't mean you need to kill the 3 year old.
I happened to be reading last night about the justly famous Milgrom experiment, which was halted early because some of the experimentees were in real danger. It strikes me that what we're seeing is the Milgrom and Stanford experiments writ large on our society, and it's becoming frightfully easy to see who would happily leap into the role of a guard without the least qualm.
Why does any knowledgeable regime torture prisoners? Not for information. The only real reasons to do it are retaliation, intimidation, and because you were bored and frustrated that shift.
Don't kid yourself that these procedures are merciful or mild. The innocuous-sounding descriptions you've read of "stress and duress interrogation techniques" are a fraud. Innocuous methods don't make prisoners break down and babble anything they think the interrogators want to hear.
For pete's sake, that's the whole point of this video -- that when prisoners are forced to hold these trivial-sounding "stress positions" for hour after hour, the effect produced is unambiguously torture.
If you knew an organization had done stuff like this to one of your close friends or family members, odds are you'd never forgive them, and you'd welcome opportunities to do them an ill turn. Torture doesn't protect us from anti-U.S. terrorism; it breeds it.
That's just one of the reasons why the cost of using torture is so high. It's a hell of a price to pay for worthless intel.
Theodosia: Or would learn not to have qualms.
f y wnt t pst trly hrrfc vd rltd t th wr n trrr, prhps y shld pst lnk t th vd f th bhdng f Dnl Prl. ntl w r rlsng vds shwng th prsnrs t Gntnm (r nywhr ls) bng trtd n smlr mnnr, dn't rlly cr wht s dn t thm.
TNH@64: Glad you like it! I've read ML for years, it feels good to be recognized for a good turn of phrase.
@Skaven:
You're totally right! Like, every day I run into people who ask me "what's so bad about terrorists, anyway?"
And I'm all like, "dude, they beheaded this guy!"
And they're all like, "well, that's just like some sort of fraternity prank, dude!"
So, like, we ought to make people watch that beheading video at dinner, y'know?
"Until we are releasing videos showing the prisoners at Guantanamo (or anywhere else) being treated in a similar manner [to Daniel Pearl], I don't really care what is done to them."
Why, are they the same people? I hadn't heard we had caught them. If we do, should we saw their heads off?
And you do realize that most of the prisoners at Guantanamo aren't actually guilty of anything, don't you? Or doesn't that matter?
See, the point is: we are not a nation that saws peoples heads off. Get it? We are not them. That's what makes us better than them.
It's a good thing you're not president, because mature, competent heads of state don't base their policy on gut emotions, however horrific the events that inspire them. See George Bush and his idiot cronies for an illustration of the dangers of your kind of decisionmaking.
Myb f ths ppl ddn't chs t b trrrsts thn thy wldn't b trtrd. Hw ls r w sppsd t gt nfrmtn frm ths ppl? f t wr p t m w wld pt bmb n thr fngr nls. wn't nsbscrb bcs DN'T SPPRT TRRRSM nd y shld nt thr. Strt stckng p fr th mrcn Ppl wh lst thr lvs n 9/11 nd stp stckng p fr th trrrsts
"Start sticking up for the American People who lost their lives in 9/11 and stop sticking up for the terrorists."
Have you even read any of the above posts? 'Cause, like, you're supposed to before commenting.
You need to give a little thought to your arguments before posting, because saying that people who disagree with you support terrorism, is, well.. sorry, but there's just no nice way to put this... ignorant, offensive, and a stupid, boring waste of everyone's time.
Sqshy (70),
Scry, bt tr. 64 yrs g qt lt f th wrld ws shtng ch thr. Brbrc, ys, bt wht wr th ltrntvs? Th ltrntvs wr t lt th Grmns wn, kll ll th Jws nd mbrk n rnst n Htlr's grnd schms fr th hmn rc.
"Gdwn's Lw", thnk, ws ctlly nvntd bcs thr s n nswr t brngng p "Htlr". Nbdy wnts t rmmbr tht ppl lk hm cm nt pwr prdclly nd hv t b dlt wth. Th dbt slly nds t tht pnt bcs th wrd "Htlr" s th trmp crd t ll f th pc lvng dbts n th wrld. Smtms y hv t chs btwn fghtng nsty fght r th nd f yr wy f lf. Smtms thr s n ncrn chsr, jst mr bld.
dn't thnk w'r thr yt wth th trrrst thrt, bt tht's bcs w'r fghtng t rly, whl t's stll smll. f w'd dn th sm thng wth th Nz mvmnt whn t ws smll, Wrld Wr 2 prbbly wld hv bn vdd. T my mnd, crshng trrrsts tdy s prvng w lrnd smthng frm Wrld Wr 2. W lrnd nt t lt crzy mltnt ppl gt t pnt whr thy'r cpbl f kllng mllns.
nd t's wrkng. W'r n lngr fghtng rq nsrgnts. vn th hrd cr mrcn htng rq trbs r thr drctly wrkng wth mrcn trps r r ndpndntly fghtng th trrrsts nd gnrng th mrcns. W'r fghtng th Syrns, Lbyns nd Sds wh r bmbzld nt fghtng s trrrsts. ttcks r dwn prcsly bcs w'r wnnng: th lcls dn't wnt t b trrrsts, dn't wnt t fght th mrcns nd wnt th ctl trrrsts t g bck hm.
Pyrs (72),
ctlly, thnk trtr s th xcptnl cs, nt th rl, s y sm t thnk. Mchl Yn s n ndpndnt rprtr n rq nd hd ths t sy n hs dsptch nttld, "Th Bttl fr Msl V":
>"Th plc wr ls dvlpng thr wn ntllgnc nd ctng n t, vn bcmng dpt t 'th cscdng rd,' s bgn t cll t... Rd cscds hppn lk ths: bd gy s cght, nd tlls whr thr trrrsts r, wh r thn qckly cght, nd thy n trn rt t fw mr...
"Th cll ldr qckly brk, gvng p th dntty f hs bss. Th plc thn cntnd th mmntm f th cscd, cptrng th hghr rnkng cll ldr, wh n trn gv ntrrgtrs th lctn f lrg cch f wpns, mrtrs nd mmntn. Th wpns cch vldtd th cptr nd vldty f ll th prvsly cptrd trrrsts n th cscd."
W d