Televangelist says: "A vote for Romney is a vote for Satan"
Salon has an article about televangelist Bill Keller's efforts to dissuade the 2.4 million readers of his e-mail list from voting for presidential candidate, Mitt Romney, a Mormon.
"A vote for Romney is a vote for Satan," Keller declared in his daily e-mail devotional last May. His reasoning went like this: Romney's election would serve as a giant advertisement for a competing religion, Mormonism, which Keller and others believe has falsely portrayed itself as another form of Christianity in an effort to find converts. "He would influence people to seek out the Mormon faith," Keller predicted of a Romney presidency. "They would get sucked into those lies and they would eventually die and go to hell."(Last year I read Jon Krakauer's engrossing history of Mormonism and its offshoots, Under the Banner of Heaven.)Though Keller's rhetoric is extreme and his predictions are controversial, his biblical reasoning is mainstream for many of the nation's Christian evangelicals, who make up about 40 percent of the Republican Party. Large denominations like the Southern Baptist Convention have long considered Mormonism to be a cult, not a true path to salvation. National polling paints a stark picture of the problem. According to a recent Pew Center poll, 25 percent of Republicans say they are reluctant to vote for a candidate who is Mormon. Among white evangelicals who attend church weekly, 41 percent are reluctant to vote for a Mormon.
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Yes. The good tele preacher is correct. A vote for Mitt is a vote for Satan.
if you wanted to vote for satan you could technically write him in. although i'm sure same thing would happen if you voted for the tooth fairy.
things that don't exist can't hold political office.
So, since he's a Republican that's an endorsement, right?
All I have to say about that is 'Hell Yeah!'
+1 for "Under the Banner of Heaven." An amazingly engrossing book.
Romney is a crass opportunist by any measure, who ran for office in Massachusetts as a moderate and immediately began tacking right in preparation for a presidential run. If he were only a Baptist (or even, at this point, a Catholic!) he'd virtually have the presidency in the bag.
It's interesting to see big banner Conservative ecumenicism bump against small "c" conservative scriptural interpretation. String-pullers like Cheny take a Machiavellian (or, perhaps more properly, a Straussian) view of religion as a cosmetic ordering principal to establish common public morality. But when the grass roots takes their dogma seriously, big tents get smaller and smaller- see Ann Coulter's recent crack about us Jews needing to get "perfected". This can end up making the conservative base in America just about as fragmented as the liberal one.
Roping the Catholics and Israeli-supporting Jews into the Republican party was a major win for the conservative movement, but I have to wonder how long they can hold it together? As a paleo-leftist, I'm curious how many conservatives feel alienated by the dominance of Southern Protestants in a party that's ostensibly committed to staying out of one's face?
Romney's problem is that the religion he belongs to is not a religion but a holding corporation involved in so many businesses it rivals GE. Its a religion, sure, but in the sense that Scientology is a religion.
I wasted 2 years of my life peddling that crap. Romney's belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon goes to show how gullible he is. Joseph Smiths character goes to show what kind of "leaders" he (literally) idolizes.
Mormonism is not Satan but it certainly is not ethical or realistic.
Gee, I really hadn't looked seriously at Romney until now -
The mormon thing dosen't bother me (I'm a Utah non-mormon), it's the thing he did to HIS OWN DOG
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2007/06/romneys-dog-sto.html
Although it's in our constitution to seperate church and state, surprisingly few political movers and shake-n-bakers seem to remember this. Voting for the benefit of humanity would seem to be the first logical choice for anyone who portends to be leader of any of the loudest of religions in the U.S..
How Christian is it to slander others? About as Christian as it is to seek public office I guess.
Are you suggesting that satan doesn't exist, CPT, Tim? Non-belief in satan is an offense punishable by spending eternity engulfed in flames and feeling it.
I'm not sure how it works, but your nerve cells will not actually be destroyed by the flame. They will keep sending the signal to the rest of your body which isn't destroyed by flame either. Either they are instantly regenerated or they're fire retardant or a little of both, I'm not sure. I'm sure that the bible would have described thoroughly how it works if people were aware of the existence of nerve cells when it was written.
Ok, truth to tell, here's what I wonder: if is smart enough to figure all this out, why did he think the flames of hell were necessary in the first place? I guess so we could understand, and you have to admit that it is quite a visual.
The point though is that you will be on fire forever. God will refuse to hear your pleas even after it should be pretty obvious that you've made a serious, but understandable miscalculation (most will end up in hell). What one might imagine someone saying in hell, "I was raised from birth as an atheist, finding most biblical stories way too fanciful to be believed, but christ it's hot in here! I guess I believe in satan now"
So if you don't want to believe in satan, that is your business, but just know what you WILL be getting yourself in to.
Anyone reading this, please, take a moment to accept Jesus Christ in to your heart as your personal lord & savior. It only takes a minute.
Why does this bozo's organization still get to be tax exempt? Their website says they're "part of Bill Keller Ministries, a 501(c)(3) organization" [http://www.liveprayer.com/bdy_about.cfm] but the IRS is very clear : if you want to be a tax exempt 501c3 organization you "may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates." [http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html]
Why do we as a nation keep letting these bozos get away with this crap? I don't care if they want to be involved in politics - stump to your heart's content! But pay your taxes like everyone else, then.
If that's true I'm votng for him, because, God knows Satan would decriminalize a whole bunch of things and take away tax-exempt status for religious organizations.
I seem to remember an idea from a Robert Heinlein story that would be applicable.
Revoke tax exemption for churches that get involved in politics. Their exemption after all is because they are separate from the state. If they try and involve themselves, they are changing their status from the neutral they should be.
Would be a hard one to get through congress, but would do you guys the world of good.
@ Alchemist
It's funny you mentioned Scientology. Did you know Romney's favorite book was Dianetics? The idea that someone that is pro Scientology could become president scares the hell out of me.
More needs to be done to expose that dangerous cult.
I hope you're being sarcastic, Pyros, but sadly I don't think you are. I was always taught God was Love before I rejected Krisjianity, but the vision you have of Him is hatefilled and unforgiving.
For the record, I like Christ -- he was a good buddha and had a great message. I just wish his followers could remember what that message was.
Mark,
Since you decided to bring Under the Banner of Heaven up for almost no apparent reason (other than that it makes you an expert on all things Mormon, right?) I'll take the opportunity to point out that even Krakauer has backed away from many of its inaccurate claims. A look at some of the inaccuracies can be found here.
Krakauer has done a lot of good though in the Las Vegas and St. George areas with the young men that have been kicked out of polygamist groups. I'm impressed that he has taken action and applaud him.
Personally I'm a Mormon that isn't going to vote for Romney or anyone from his party, but I find the overt bigotry that his candidacy has stirred up to be highly entertaining. Imagine if the same level of overt bigotry were aimed at either Senator Clinton or Senator Obama. Instead the media approaches the "Mormon question" as if it were deserving of merit, thus endorsing the bigotry.
Landowner, as I recall his favorite book was Battlefield Earth, not Dianetics. Your point still stands, though, and gets "He likes intensely bad fiction" added to it.
well worded quote.
one one hand, it's really unfortunate pastors would actually tell people who to vote for. (i'm an evangelical myself.)
but, it's accurate to say that, in christian theology, mormonism has the potential to mess up salvation. here's my attempt to simplify it:
1) Mormon Jesus is a created being, not The Creator. Wussy Jesus = less effectual atonement on cross. biblically, trusting that atonement is what saves.
2) their eschatology (study on end-times/heaven) gives the impression that you replace God by becoming a God of your own world. don't have to love God to have that hope.
3) The goody-two-shoes culture in LDS sacrifices the whole point of the protestant reformation: it aint about "be good to get good w/ god," but is about "b/c of cross, i'm not guilty, and now have to capacity to work on being less bad in this life."
"For the record, I like Christ"
but do you like fig trees more? i hear the two don't get along.
@ A Random John: I wasn't aware that Jon Krakauer denounced his own book. He must be really ashamed. Can you please provide a cite here?
And in recent news, apparently Satan is against Gay Marriage because romney says its the biggest threat to american families.
Its like matter and anti matter. A Straight family wanders into the castro during an event weekend. and bam... they're torn apart, never to be the same again.
What, me worry?
towtansua wrote...
"1) Mormon Jesus is a created being, not The Creator. Wussy Jesus = less effectual atonement on cross. biblically, trusting that atonement is what saves.
2) their eschatology (study on end-times/heaven) gives the impression that you replace God by becoming a God of your own world. don't have to love God to have that hope.
3) The goody-two-shoes culture in LDS sacrifices the whole point of the protestant reformation: it aint about "be good to get good w/ god," but is about "b/c of cross, i'm not guilty, and now have to capacity to work on being less bad in this life."
1. Mormons believe that Jesus is God's son, and that Jesus created the world with God's power.
2. Mormons do not believe that God will be replaced. Rather they believe that God's glory will continue to grow, as more and more of His children attain their own godhood.
3. Mormons do not believe that their good works qualify them for God's salvation. Mormons believe that only through Jesus' sacrifice can they or anyone else be saved.
Not sure where you got your information, but I recommend you do a little more research.
Mark,
I've looked and can't find it. My recollection is that after his initial angry response (which is easy to find) that he admitted to some dramatic license and to some of the sources he used being weak but that he stuck to he main thesis. He certainly didn't denounce his book. If I do happen to find a reference I'll let you know.
However you are pretty comical for bringing it up here. You post an article on Romney and you feel the urge to mention that you've read Krakauer's book? Does that make you an expert on Mormons? Certainly there are better sources for learning about Mormonism, warts and all than this book.
Christopher,
I see your heart has been hardened by the serpent's slippery tongue. You must have been exposed to the liberal media or something and now you're thoughts are all confused and twisted. That, and reading BB for too long. I'll have you know that you have offended a child of god so you may now also want to watch out if you refuse to humble yourself before the lord. Pray for mercy, and if not this, ask god for a choice--lightening bolt (rather cliched I'd say), poison dart, or gastroenteritis.
Ok, I know that I have a tendency to take the discussion off in another direction, but here's the deal. Clearly Mitt Romney is Satan I think we can all agree on that, right? But he's no worse just about all the other candidates.
In fact, I would vote for Mitt before I would vote for Giuliani because I'm pretty sure that Giuliani is the antichrist. My reasoning is that once the anti-christ takes power, the world will end, while it's not certain what will happen if satan is elected. Will there be wild orgies? Will there be debauchery and outrageous parties? Will there be lewerdnessism? Reefer madness? These are all things I have personally favored at one time or other, so that wouldn't be so bad.
Funny to think, though, that all of the other satan's that we've elected over the centuries have been at least publicy against all of these harmless luxuries.
@ A Random John:
I'm not sure why you are laboring under the false impression that I consider myself "expert on Mormons."
The reason I mentioned Under the Banner of Heaven here is because it is one of the most interesting books I've ever read, and I always bring it up when the topics of Mormons come up. The many people who read the book on my recommendation have thanked me.
"The reason I mentioned Under the Banner of Heaven here is because it is one of the most interesting books I've ever read, and I always bring it up when the topics of Mormons come up"
I bring it up whenever they come over. Surprisingly, most mormons I've met have read the book and keep an open mind about it. They assure me that the days of massacaring entire families is basically over. "We're respectable now. We even have a guy running for president, and black people are also free to joing the faith." That sort of thing.
Hopefully these guys will keep attacking each other and dilute the vote.
"As a Christian I am completely opposed to the doctrines of Mormonism, but I’m not voting for a preacher. I’m voting for a president. It boils down to who can best represent conservative American beliefs, not religious beliefs." - Dr. Bob Jones III on Mitt Romney
@SCHUFT: Thanks.
I think that the pomo technique of looking at everything around the source of an idea, but not trusting the source itself, is sometimes harmful to the appreciation of facts.
I suspect a direct vote for Satan might be preferable.
Thanks Ethan I should be more careful when I'm bashing people.
We'd be better off voting for Satan...at least we'd know for sure that he'd be out to damn all of humanity and bring about the apocalypse. No hidden agendas there.
"The reason I mentioned Under the Banner of Heaven here is because it is one of the most interesting books I've ever read, and I always bring it up when the topics of Mormons come up."
It can be interesting (and it certainly is) without being accurate scholarship. Seriously though, you post on Romney and feel compelled to include a link to Under the Banner of Heaven? How much do you think Romney has to do with two brothers that left the Mormon church and murdered their sister-in-law? A lot? Are you a journalist or what? Do you bring up Into the Wild everytime somebody mentions Alaska? Do you feel a compulsion to share Into Thin Air each time someone tells you that they went on a hike?
What's this allusion to Giuliani being the antichrist? I thought he was the president of 9/11 and that's about it. Personally, I would like to see a candidate for 9/12 and beyond.
Under the Banner of Heaven is an interesting book. Unfortunately, it's a very well spun, convincing, but historically suspect account. It is not a great look at Mormonism, especially mainstream Mormonism, and while I know it was not your intention, presenting it as such is a dangerous thing (intellectually speaking). If you aren't interested in doing research on Mormonism (I don't blame you, honestly, and you can't be an expert on everything) at least please don't present the one random book you have read as representative.
To those above who said that the LDS church should lose their tax exempt status, I will point out that their is one issue they've taken a stand on in the last decade, one vote they've tried to influence, and they have never (!) supported a candidate, explicitly or implicity.
Also, the idea that most "average Mormons" tacitly approve of polygamy could not be more wrong - most Mormons hate polygamy, but have a history of live at let live in most cases involving government interventions in religion. Also, for the record, most Mormons don't extend that live and let live policy to exploitation of underage girls.
Arthur "Killer" Cane, the bass player for the New York Dolls joined the Mormon faith, so it can't be all bad. In fact, we would probably all do well to live like the mormons.
Since this string is already almost 40 posts, it's going to be flushed down the memory hole and second which gives me a little liberty in saying what I'm about to say.
There are some people, such as myself, who just can't swallow religion of any kind. I don't think mormonism is more or less ridiculous than any other religion, if that makes any mormons or mormon sympathizers feel better.
The only thing I would add, however, is that it is now possible to imagine that humans may one day have god-like powers. In many ways we already do. It is possible that we may have the power to create worlds one day. We're getting close to being able to live forever and also being able to create life. Therefore, it is not so difficult to imagine that we were ourselves created. If so, any religion might also happen to be true.
"His biblical reasoning?"
Is the word "Biblical" synonymous with "ignorant" and "careless?"
Unfortunate.
Sadly, these Christians don’t realize they worship a long dead god. My God killed the Christian god eons ago and spread his dismembered entrails across the Galaxy in glorious battle. Denounce your dead god. Worship the Cow God or be in holy manure.
Mark, I feel like you yourself are conflicted. On one hand, you don't like nor care to get an accurate idea about Mormons (I remember an old post of yours and your email response to me about it), and on the other you want to point out the hypocrisies of people for not liking or wanting accurate ideas about Mormons.
In other words, next time keep your reading list out of it.
Anyone reading this, please, take a moment to accept Jesus Christ in to your heart as your personal lord & savior. It only takes a minute.
How conVEEEEEEEENient.
Concerns and misconceptions about Romney's religion are nothing new in presidential politics; when JFK was running, some people thought that he'd be taking orders directly from the Pope. It's Romney's willingness to pander to the right and ignore his previous positions on social issues that bothers me; John Kerry's so-called flip-flopping has nothing on Romney's.
What a pointless thread.
Mormons find themselves in a difficult position as much of their doctrine (or rather their doctrine of a modern prophet and revelation) put them at odds with "traditional" Christianity, and their status as a growing denomination invite the attacks of those particularly prejudiced against religion in general.
I know next-to-nothing about Mitt Romney and don't feel particularly predisposed toward another Republican at this point, but the ignorance so often seen among the rabidly anti-Mormon is appalling. I'm not referring to Mark Frauenfelder's post or even the Kraukauer book (read between the lines and its a fascinating read), but to those whose diatribes border conspiracy theory.
Trying to draw a connection between Scientology and Mormonism based on the (false) report that Dianetics is Romney's favorite book is untenable (Actual statement: "The Bible" is his favorite book, but Battlefield Earth is an "enjoyable" sci-fi- novel.).
Accept the obvious: The average practicing Mormon lives a life like any other practicing Christian - attempting to emulate the example of and follow the teaching of their Savior. Attempting to make points about Mormons from horrible instances like the Mountain Meadows Massacre or discontinued practices like polygamy are no better than attacking Catholicism because of the Crusades or Dark Ages or condemning protestants from tragedies in Ireland.
@ Clumpy
I think its pretty obvious that you are a mormon. Why don't you discose this instead of textually felatiating mormonism?
Mormonism is a 19'th century analog to Scientology.
I wish Republicans were reluctant to vote for a candidate who is a Moron. We'd have a lot less to worry about in the world today.
Pyros,
You'd probably find the Mormon Transhumanist Association (http://transfigurism.org/) interesting. It is made up of Mormons that think the tech singularity will be the starting point for resurrection, immortality, and other religious concepts. They are obviously a very small minority amongst Mormons (most of whom have no idea about singularity) but they seem to be thinking along the same lines you are.
Bring back ploygamey!
It's a well-known secret that the Mormons are the chief MDMAnufacturers in the States. Spreading God's love into the 21st century. (Or is Satan also capable of spreading feelings of love, so as to claim more victims? )
Further, people like Kill Beller and Ritt Momney are prime examples of what is on the menu for Cthulhu, as served by Satan.
Vote 4 Cthulhu. Cthulhu IS REAL , and CTHULHU MUST FEED.
What better food for ol' C than American politicans and evangelists?
(insert sinister looking demonic graphics here)
Alchemist's post (edited for grammar and spelling:
---
I think [that] it[']s pretty obvious that you are a [M]ormon. Why don't you [disclose] this instead of textually[-]fellatiating [M]ormonism?
Mormonism is a 19th century analog to Scientology.
---
I am LDS. I was not trying to hide this fact; I think it was pretty clear from my post that I'm a member of the LDS Church.
Though I do not feel particularly-inclined to defend my faith on a point-by-point basis (debate on this issue is pointless - we're both too entrenched in our respective positions to convince each other), I will submit that your allegation is completely false. Absolutely backward.
I'll have to wait until I can calm down and stop giggling before I respond to that claim that the Mormon hierarchy doesn't dabble in politics.
Mark,
You're probably not reading here anymore, but if you are it just occurred to me that television was invented by a Mormon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo_Farnsworth) so perhaps anytime anyone mentions Romney you could bring up Philo T Farnsworth.
Alternatively you could bring up Under the Banner of Heaven each time someone mentions TV, right?
A Random John, you want to argue with someone who's actually done some research on Mormonism? Here I am. If you don't want to talk about Krakauer's excellent book, there are any number of other subjects I'd be happy to discuss with you. I'll even give you first pick:
1. The King Follett Discourse
2. The Kinderhook Plates
3. The Adam-God Doctrine
4. The Book of Breathings
5. The purchase of Mark Hofmann's forgeries
6. Textual changes in 2 Nephi 30:6
7. Excommunicating a generation of Mormon historians
8. The Human Genome Project vs. the Book of Mormon
9. The fighting qualities of war-tapirs
That'll do for a start. You just let me know.
Onward, then, to the question of the Mormon hierarchy dabbling in secular politics. And the answer is: They always have.
It wasn't revelation that brought an end to open polygamy; it was the church's desire to have Utah made a state with its existing power structure more or less intact. The price for that was getting rid of polygamy and they did it, even though it meant publicly repudiating plural wives who'd honestly believed for decades that they were honorably married.
Can anything have been buried more thoroughly than the church's early communism?
I was a page at the Arizona House of Representatives on the day that the Equal Rights Amendment got killed in the Judiciary Committee. I saw the anti-ERA protesters who turned up. They were all Mormon women, and they were being bused in by wards. My family's been Mormon for almost as long as the church has existed. Don't tell me those women left their homes and children for the day and chartered buses to go to a political meeting on their own say-so. They absolutely did not have the authority or the budget, and they couldn't have organized it without the church's approval. By any realistic measurement, that "protest" was organized by the church.
And mind you, this was in Arizona. They were more overt about it in Utah.
I've never known a time when the church didn't have its fingers in secular politics. Everybody knows it. Why are you trying to cover it up? These days, even the gentiles know better.