More US Warcraft players than farmers
Next time President Bush tells you he's going to Crawford to be with "real Americans," remind him that there are more World of Warcraft players in the USA than there are farmers (though of course the two aren't mutually exclusive).
There are four times as many Americans living in urban than rural areas. There are four times as many people sucking back coffee in New York city alone than make a living farming. According to the Bureau of Labor, there are just as many people employed in Architecture and Engineering as farming, hell, 3 million people working in Computer and Mathematical jobs. But when one of these "What does America think about culture" pieces comes on, do I ever see a mid-30's software engineer onscreen bitching about having to download BitTorrents of "The IT Crowd"? Fuck and no.Link (via Making Light)Four million people in the US play World of Warcraft. And yet, do I ever hear:
ANDERSON: We stopped by the gates of Ogrimmar in Durotar, on the east coast of Kalimdor, where one local told us Hollywood just can't relate to the level-grinding life.
UNIDENTIFIED ORC: They've never been back here, questing Razormane or Drygulch Ravine, y'know ... or farming for Peacebloom and Silverleaf. They're out of touch.
No. No I do not.
Yes, but there are more Texans than there are WoW players.
WoW rocks that planting a crop.hehe
And more people saw "Transformers" than farm in this country and yet you don't see public policy guided by opinions over Optimus Prime.
Warcraft players only meaningful contribution is making it easier for people who actually want to accomplish things with their lives to do so. Every Orc, Dwarf or Demon is one less script, one less comic book, one less novel, one less body at the market. Thanks for staying inside basking in the glow of electro-fantasy!
How does the number of gold farmers factor into this equation?
Talk to me when you band together and form some kind of lobby...alliance..horde thing and influence public policy by plying me with hookers and money.
That's when you get your "real American" badge.
Then again, what the hell would WOW players do with govt. subsidies and appropriations bills?
Hm, interesting piece! Just remember though, larger population doesn't mean it's more important than a smaller populace. That's why, politically, we still have the electoral college. Otherwise we might as well hold national elections only in NYC, LA, DC, Miami, Chicago, Houston, Seattle, etc and the rest of the country would be screwed.
The point is valid, but to be slightly pendantic (OK a lot), there's probably more like 2.5 million Warcraft players in the US now. It was 2 mill back in January when it was 8 million total worldwide (it's now 9 mill):
http://www.blizzard.com/press/070111.shtml
World of Warcraft has also achieved new regional subscriber milestones, with more than 2 million players in North America, more than 1.5 million players in Europe, and more than 3.5 million players in China.
playing wow cannot be counted as productive people.
Jessica @ Prank Videos
how many of those wow players can vote ?
The reason farmers are more important is that they make stuff. I have said for many years, only half-jokingly, that the only real businesses are farming and construction; the rest of us are middlemen. Without real production, all those bankers, stockbrokers, lawyers and people in Statistical Analysis and Data Reconfiguration have nothing to do. (Well, except learn to hunt and gather.)
We do see foreign policy guided by fiction like the Left Behind series though. It would be preferable to have an avatar of Optimus Prime as Secretary of State than some callow acolyte plucked from Regent University to be entrenched in the upper echelons of the Department of Justice.
Remember... Bush cannot ride a horse. He seems to fear them. His ranch is a sham. If he is off to spend time with "real Americans," his quest for authenticity is always stillborn.
Every time Bush wears a cowboy hat, he's as much as cosplayer as those who wear pointed ear extensions, craving to be a night elf.
re: caipirina
They probably shouldn't be allowed to vote until they're able to snap back to reality. They may as well be on crack.
"That's why, politically, we still have the electoral college."
No, it's because we still allow two senators per state regardless of population and the senators from the dinky states are never going to allow this to happen.
"Otherwise we might as well hold national elections only in NYC, LA, DC, Miami, Chicago, Houston, Seattle, etc and the rest of the country would be screwed"
Sounds like an excellent idea to me.
I'm not sure why there is all this WoW hate going on. The WoW players that I know are well-educated, work hard, and are generally very productive people. But hey, stereotypes are more fun than reality.
@Geno:
You said it, my friend. I once really pissed off a chip designer when I said that what he did had no intrinsic value, and that that was true of my job as well. He was furious and blathered on about how much more earning power he had than I. I told him to look up the word "intrinsic" and try again.
I grew up around farmers, though, and a successful farmer doesn't make stuff. He's an accountant. We have once again arrived at a kind of Middle Ages society where the least paid are those who actually feed, clothe, and shelter us. I don't know how to grow a crop. If the whole economy crumbled, it wouldn't be like people would be coming to me to explain factor analysis or something.
@Bettywu:
I'll agree that general elections would probably go more the way I'd like them if we skipped rural America, but pissing off the farmers is a bad idea, and they do deserve a voice.
Rural people are out of touch only insofar as it is impossible for them to fathom living in NYC, for example. But that goes the other way as well. When talking to people who grew up in NYC, it's clear that they have no idea what it's like to live anywhere else.
If I had to pick one that was more "out of touch" (and I am, of course, biased), I'd have to say it was the city dwellers. They may have preternatural knowledge of the subway map, but they probably don't know how to replace a toilet or build a staircase or repair an automobile. Sometimes they don't know what food looks like before it is packaged and put in the supermarket. Living outside of the many support structures cities offer forces you to learn how to do a lot of things by yourself. Look no further than BB's DIY guru, Mark, to see evidence of this. He hails from Colorado.
Legislating for these two worlds, however, is virtually impossible. For this reason, the framers intended there to be strong states' rights. Then there was the Civil War and the rest of the country has been enslaved by the Northeast ever since (please no slavery flames--the Civil War was about money, not slavery--except that of the Confederacy by the Union).
It is clear that I grew up in a different country than my friends from NYC, and, to a lesser extent, LA. The idea that the same body of laws should govern both of us is bizarre.
@Garrett, 3:
Why the hate? Coders, comic book writers and novelists are worthless unless there are people willing to sit at home and consume their code, comic books and novels. Video games are no different. For every good artist, there's a bunch of admiring fans who take time out of their day to enjoy the art.
Don't be hatin' on consumers. Without us, there's not much point in being a producer.
This seems to set up a kind of weird implied dichotomy, comparing what is essentially a consumer choice with a productive economic activity. It's like saying "ZOMG, there are more Hello Kitty fans than steel workers in the US!!! Why are politicians ignoring this crucial demographic?"
The answer, of course, is that Hello Kitty fans do not vote as a block (bloc?), since their common interest has jack squat to do with what they do every day to survive. As obsessive as some of them may be, there isn't really any political issue that would unite them at the polls. Any politician who honestly thought they would get more votes by lowering tariffs on Sanrio memorabilia than by raising tariffs on imported steel* probably wouldn't be a politician for very long.
I might well end up being proven wrong here. I mean hell, everybody knows that liberals drink lattes and drive Volvos. Does that mean that we'll see Democratic candidates drawing battle lines by coffee preference, trying to court the all-important half-caf-soy-double-mochaccino-with-whip demographic? 'Round about that time would probably be when I'd run off and hide on a small island in the South Pacific, so I really hope that's not the case.
*Of course, you'd be forced to repeal the steel tariffs after the WTO rules that they're illegal, but by that point, you've probably made your political hay.
@NoneSuch
I don't hate WOW at all. I'm deadly serious about it being a honeyed trap for people who'd otherwise be competing with me for gigs and creative work. Like folks who get home, drop in front of the tv and zone out till the lights go dim, they're opting out of life and making room for people who would rather do than consume. Glad you're there buying it, but I can't help but think Blizzard knows their PT Barnum "Sucker Born Every Minute" philosophy all too well.
People who create new things, explore and invent new worlds are definitely better off than the folks watching the flicker. The Allegory of the Cave with a broadband connection.
PT Barnum never said "There is a sucker born every minute" and the mis-attributing of that phrase to him only goes to prove that the speaker has missed out on the most important lessons of Barnum's work and philosophy towards showmanship. even if you were to make the case that PT would have agreed with the sentiment of the quote it should still be qualified that he would never take the risk of saying such things even in confidence because it would undermine his real work of entertaining them. Barnum didn't think people were ignorant suckers he thought they wanted grandiose entertainment and he was willing to create that bigger than life story for them.
As for WoW being a trap - when I played WoW I was still actively writing and performing live over 250 days a year and the other players I knew were largely in the same situation. Creative people often enjoy consuming other people's creative content but that doesn't stop them working themselves.
@Kyle Armbruster
It's not that I want to "skip" rural America, I'm just tired of them having such a disproportionately large voice in setting policy.
I grew up in the middle of the country. I know the basics of toilet repair and how corn cross-pollinate. (I did not, however, know Jack Kennedy...) It's marvelous information, but not nearly as useful as knowing how to install a router.
@RevRaven post #6
The whole electoral college benefit to smaller populations is a myth, if anything it makes presidential politics easier on the canidate by saying "So... let's not go to Indiana" since the electorates vote republican despite the fact my hometown of Indianapolis(and all of Marion county) voted for Kerry by 59%.
If we went by popular vote politicians would have to reach out to more people in the 'red states' who actually don't want a president to piss on the bill of rights, instead of assuming we're all the so called values voters or that we all drive SUVs and put magnets on said SUVs declaring France, the Democratic Congress, or Atheists(like me) below a common turd.
-SH.
LOLCAT STEVENS, you're amazing. There are more people who played 'John Deere: American Farmer' in a single farmhouse in south Texas last summer than there are centipede experts the world over.
The author's first point doesn't seem to be so politicizing, though. So what if Hollywood doesn't "get" the hyper-nuanced version of American farmers' lives? It's not Hollywood's responsibility to keep up with them r thr flthy nds, and I'll bet that far fewer farmers get out to the movie pictures as often as hipster waitresses going to grad school in New York.
Hollywood's job is dishing out blockbusters, not blocking out ditchbusters. Little immigration joke there. If you have to drive an hour and a half to see a movie, you might as well wait the extra month and a half to own it on DVD. Hollywood's only concern should be making movies that keep people from streaming an unwatchable cam off of Stage6 or Veoh. Do farmers do that? Seriously. Hollywood's so out of touch, they're in touch. So many westerns this year, too.
Since when does anyone need to vote to express their opinion on television in this country, anyway? d thnk tht WW frk mght hv mr t dd t dscssn bt "cltr," whtvr tht s, thn sm dsfgrd crn frmr frm Gd knws whch sd f hs sstr's bd n Txrkn. 'm s sck f ths bg vc fr th mnrty nnsns. Gt rl.
Then again, TV news has always gone with the tthlss mlcntnts. Only recently has it begun to court the iPod-toting psdntllctls, and even then only in more densely populated regions. It's more a reflection of those doing the programming, and not some commentary on the characters of the ngry, nprprd dts being thrust under the spotlight.
But yeah, where are all the big city data analysts, computer programmers, artists, musicians, bloggers, makers, rocket scientists, tattoo artists, messengers, atheists, skeptics, Pastafarians, robots, and, damn it all, even telemarketers? Just not TV-friendly enough, I guess. It's all soccer Moms and disgruntled pedestrians.
"'Otherwise we might as well hold national elections only in NYC, LA, DC, Miami, Chicago, Houston, Seattle, etc and the rest of the country would be screwed'
Sounds like an excellent idea to me."
Geographical as well as ideological or monetary interests should play a part in a democracy. So, no, this wouldn't be a good idea at all.
"please no slavery flames--the Civil War was about money, not slavery--except that of the Confederacy by the Union."
Well, this isn't a flame, but the monetary interests that you're concerned with were enabled by the presence of an incredibly low-cost workforce. Southern states were concerned that their economy, based on a lucrative cotton trade with Europe, would collapse if slavery was eliminated.
Of course, it's simply insane to say that something like the Civil War was caused by one thing, or even two. A few key factors that brought about the situation were ideologies about state's rights, economics, _as well as_ African-American slavery. The anti-slavery movement on the north and the rhetoric that went along with it can be seen as giving the north the moral authority to resist compromise, and thus a very real factor in the outbreak of war.
But the outbreak of violence of such magnitude cannot realistically be reduced to "money".
Most of the soldiers in the Confederacy were poor landless individuals. If the _only_ motivation was money, many of those men would have never enlisted.
@ The Lizardman
s tht th ntrnt pdntry s t n fll frc. It's regularly attributed to Barnum, and it's even the opening of the musical of his life. To whom should I send flowers and candy to apologize for misquoting? I bow to your superior knowledge of PT Barnum quotes. You're no more or less right in your position and my argument still stands regardless. But do you feel better?
As for you playing WoW and having a fulfilling creative life, that's fantastic for you. And how much more would you have done and accomplished if you weren't simply wandering around gathering electronic tokens?
Consuming a book, a play, music or any other creative entity you expand your experience, WOW does nothing but appeal to the meticulous nature of some individuals, enrich Blizzard and provide nothing more than a time suck. The story of WOW itself is nothing more than a cobbling together of geek culture (Tolkein here, Narnia there, Robert Jordan here, mix in memes of the moment, stir). Like so much of "remix culture" it adds nothing new, expands nothing and simply allows the users to wander in the familiar rather than embrace the unknown.
"Warcraft players only meaningful contribution is making it easier for people who actually want to accomplish things with their lives to do so."
This is only true in the short term. But over a longer period, enough people opting out of one of your preferred activities may make it no longer economically feasible to offer in your area. If opera is your thing and there aren't enough fans in the locale to float a viable opera house because everyone prefers WoW, you are now out of luck.
This is why I tell everyone I know about a new product at Costco I enjoy. Rather than worrying about the price going up due to competition, I worry about helping find the clientèle to keep it in the store. That, and I like sharing with my friends.
Maybe I'm missing something, but 'WoW Player' and 'Farmer' aren't mutually exclusive...
@REVRAVEN:
The electoral college does nothing to protect the minority opinion. As a liberal in Kansas, I can tell you for sure that my vote, nationally, literally does not count. Ever. My representatives don't represent me. The reasons for the electoral college were three-fold: 1) communication could be too slow to get an election done in a timely manner, 2) it would upset the balance of power to have the Congress elect the president and 3) "we the people" are actually too ignorant to elect a president, either because (see point 1) communication is too slow or we're just stupid. Well, everyone agrees with 2), and 1) is obviously wrong today (I mean, we now know instantly what is going on in the World of Warcraft), but I guess there is still some room for 3). The problem is that there's no evidence that the electoral college is any smarter.
As far as national candidates are concerned, the national election is held in "NYC, LA, DC, Miami, Chicago, Houston, Seattle, etc." Do you know the last time a candidate for president of the United States actually stumped for office in Kansas? Not in my lifetime. I mean, politicians know that votes from farm country don't count. So you WoW guys don't get too fired up about your eventual influence over government.
@18 Garrett,
I shouldn't have to tell you that most people who play WOW also do other things, just like most people who watch TV don't sit there and watch it all day. It may shock and surprise you to know that some musicians, artists and writers also enjoy other activities, including TV and games (and, heaven forbid, family, friends and surfing Boing Boing).
Don't belittle people over something you obviously don't care to even find out about. It's like talking down to people who enjoy the beach. Those silly beach goers who spend all their lives at the beach will never be able to compete with my elite skills in non-beach activities! Muhuhuhuhahaha!
Anyway, this blog entry is silly. It essentially says, "Bush is pandering to a group of over 50,000,000 rural Americans -- why isn't he also pandering to a this significantly smaller group?"
I mean really, is this on anyone's top 10 reasons for why they hate Bush? We hate Bush because he respects rural America? That bastard! Lets go march on the white house. Find some rural Americans and see if they'll lend us their pitchforks and torches.
Bush respects rural Americans? My ass. That's where all the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans came from, huh? That's why he's committed to sending so many thousands of innocent rural Americans to meet their bloody DEATHS in an unjust war in Iraq? That's why he combats evils like SCHIP and spies on Americans? That tremendous respect he has for all the poor, rural folks? Pft! He didn't even have a Texas accent until he ran for governor.
It's not the first reason I hate Bush, his "respect" for rural America. Neither is it his freedom. Number one on my list is that he's a warmongering imbecile who can't pronounce "nuclear."
There are probably more bloggers writing meaningless drivel than there are farmers.
There are [definitely] more bloggers writing meaningless drivel than there are farmers.
there, fixed
@NoneSuch
I'm sure that many of the above and below posters who find WOW players unproductive were referring to the self-styled hardcore WOW players, namely the ones who only leave their parent's basement for snacks and Bud Lite, as opposed to occasional players who only spend a few hours a day on the game.
@Clayton Counts
Don't forget his love for the word "Peninshula". This guy is pure comedy.
@Garret
My goal was not 'pedantry' (sic), when I see a factual error I correct it because my experience has been that things tend to go better when people operate with the correct information. When I am in error I prefer and actually often enjoy or am at least thankful for being corrected. If you want something pedantic, I will point out that Merriam-Webster does not recognize 'pedantry' as a word. Send the flowers and candy to your former educators who let believe this falsehood probably along with many others. I do feel better for having provided information that was apparently unknown to you before - if you don't appreciate it, that's your issue.
I have to wonder if you have ever played WoW since you characterize it as simply gathering electronic tokens. My experience of it was only enriched by recognizing the elements the designers borrowed from and found the interaction with other players to be valuable and stimulating for many of my other creative endeavors. As with much of life, you get out what you put in and my WoW time was not significantly different than my time reading books or watching currently relevant TV that provide much fodder for me onstage. I did not lose any time to WoW in terms of work I might have done rather it was a pleasant leisure activity that more often than not contributed to my creative endeavors. Perhaps you should try playing a bit...
It seems to me the real point of the piece is that what we think of as the "typical American" has changed radically over the years. Many people may still wish to believe that America is made up of "yeoman farmers," to borrow a Jeffersonian description, but the reality is far different. I think the author is right when he says that it's not just Hollywood-types who don't understand farmers. MOST of us don't understand farmers because most of us are so far removed from that life that we couldn't grow the tomato plants they sell pre-grown at Home Depot. While we can debate whether that's a good or bad thing, the truth of the matter is that when a news program or Harper's Weekly or any other media seeks out the "average American," he's not likely to be found on a farm in Iowa, but in the suburb of a major city. We just need to stop pretending that small-town America IS America anymore.
Cory,
It's kind of silly trying to tie President Bush into statistics about children playing computer games vs. people doing productive work. The stastic is interesting, but your context for it is not.
By the way, have you seen this? Congress is now only half as popular as the Nazis.
Cool.
Hah...WOW a trap....
I am a published author (one book done and volume II in progress), a working blacksmith and I produce a quarterly technical journal.....oh, and I play WOW.
Perhaps one-trick ponies need to feel as if their competition is lulled by a game. Perhaps those who can, do it all.
Nothing is more amusing than enlightened urbanites talking about farmers and farming, unless it's President Bush talking about 'strategery'.
Rural America needs the opinions of Starbuck's-swillers in New York and L.A. like Tehran needs a visit from Dick Cheney.
When I first was "into" video games it was 1981 and I had an Atari 400 and played Star Raiders and Space Invaders all the time. I know it sounds cliche, but the second I truly discovered girls, going out to movies with friends on weekends, and sneaking drinks at parties, I could care less. And that was like in 1985/86.
There were immersive games, but the gnawing sense that I was missing "real life" was always present. And I was more than happy to pass on my old computers/games to relatives and such and move onto being an adult.
I dabbled with Sim City in the 1990s but real life was always more compelling. And still is.
I truly can't understand anyone nowadays who is over 25 and who spends a good chunk of their lives existing in a fantasy world. I simply don't get it and don't care how intricate or "magical" a fake world is. It's still fake and real life is so much more compelling/interesting.
I know this might sound like a stereotypical "Oh those kids nowadays!" rant, but seriously. I jumped into games when I had NO life and lived at home and had little options. How can people who do have options and do live in richer world waste their lives like this?
That's a harsh judgement but I have actually watched a marriage die because of a guy who was OCD about Everquest: Why?!?!?!?
Sorry but there is something seriously imbalanced/wrong about this. It's as if there's this whole generation of people with Asperger syndrome being bred and few are talking about it.
I grew up on a farm, and grow some of my own food now, so I'm pretty close to seeing things from both sides here.
I think one thing many people can forget about is that farming now has become a very industrialized practice. Of course there's always been farm equipment, but what we have nowadays is a smaller number of large farms mass-producing food. So claiming that farmers are somehow more noble by growing food seems a little off. Because the farmers we probably get most of our food from nowadays wouldn't know what to do without their equipment. Lots of industries get involved getting us our high fructose corn syrup! Not to mention the shipping companies that make it possible for me to get cheap food from across the friggin' country, or world.
Oh, and I can think of one issue WOW-players will unite over. Taxation of virtual property. I know they're just toying with the idea, but didn't the IRS start looking into doing that not too long ago?
"Yeah, I beat Al'Gromnar the All Devouring, and took his greatsword Lifecleaver."
"Sweet dude!"
"No man...I pay more in taxes now than subscription fees."
@Farmerbob:
We're not trying to give any advice TO Rural America. We're discussing how politicians treat it.
We wouldn't say that Rural America "needs [our] opinions" any more than you would. Don't worry. We're not trying to tell any rural person to do anything. In fact, if you read the comments, some are saying how they wish they COULD do some of the things farmers do since MAKING THINGS (IE food, etc) is much more useful than being a "middleman" in the city.
Interesting discussion. Although I think some people are really understating the amount of rural small towns left in America. It's one thing to say there are fewer farmers in America; it's another thing to say that small towns do not exist. It seems as if more urban and suburban people are more and more out of touch with anything outside their immediate urban/suburban domain that they immediately dismiss anything different as non-existent.
I think the media image of a farmer tends to be quaint by today’s standards with the way farms now run. My wife grew up on a farm her family has operated since the 1880's in upstate New York. From an early age it was determined that her older brother was to get the farm, and she would have to find other means to support herself, so she grew up went to college, now runs a local history museum.
Her father is nice, but often times can be a curmudgeonly hick. He's in his 70's and at the point where his working at the farm is more token than anything else. My brother in law on the other hand in his late 20's, and manages to run the farm with the help of only one hired man. He's constantly keeping up to day on new farming technology and exploring the possibility of growing more corn to be used in local ethanol production.
Much more up to date than the image of the American farmer provided by American Gothic.
Ever hear of RP servers? Plenty of WoW players actually are doing something creative. It's not high art, but it beats drinking lite beer and gambling. Sure, you could always be writing the Great American Novel or something, but as a social outlet for your downtime it's pretty cool.
"please no slavery flames--the Civil War was about money, not slavery--except that of the Confederacy by the Union." NoneSuch
1) What do you mean by "about"?
2) You're a liar. You may not realize it, but that's a convenient falsehood that the South has talked about for a long, long time. It was 'about' slavery. It really was.
Someone asked the question, "I truly can't understand anyone nowadays who is over 25 and who spends a good chunk of their lives existing in a fantasy world."
I'll help you understand. Imagin real life is boring. Imagine your are an introverted person and interacting with other people is often stressfull and draining, not exciting and invigorating. Imagine you have a masters degree and are working in one of the best jobs in your field and you still get bored at work. Imagine making money and being ambitious just aren't that fun and exiting to you. You want to be a hero, somehow, but for some reason you just can't bring yourself to join the national guard or become a fireman. Then you discover WOW and suddenly you are immersed in a world of heros, strategy, and challanges where every creature you interact with is actually controlled by a real person, and to your amazement, it is easy and fun to interact with these real people through the game. You have excitement, fun, friends, and adventure in a world that it infinitely more interesting then the real one.
Now, I'm talking from the perspective of an introverted, depressed, idealistic computer nerd with an addictive personality who never seemed to get on with girls in high school and college. I don't play WOW and never have because I know how much fun it would be and that I would never be able to stop. A lot of people who play would never have this problem. However, people like me would.
I have to content myself with boring old reality, krav maga classes, sports and some incredible stressful dating on the side. For those of you out there who who love the real world and find it interesting and compelling, count yourselves lucky.
The argument that "Hey, I'm a nuerosugeon, a published author and King of all Siam and I play World of Warcraft 40 hours a week!" falls kind of flat as that person is clearly at one end of the bell curve in many respects. You are not the norm by any means. Just the same as the person dying from thrombosis after 48 hour run isn't either. Most people simply lose hours at a time, chunks here and there, that would be better spent. When you're dying and look back upon your life, all you've done and not done I think more WoW player will wish they'd ticked more off their "to-do" lists.
A music teacher of mine once said "Practice a minute a day. Just say, every day I will practice for one minute." Of course he knew that once your got your Guitar out and actually started playing you'd go on for more than just a minute, but the point was committing your time to something. Why commit time to another person's fantasy when you could use that time to create your own?
The point of WoW is to take up as much of your time as possible. The more you play the more more Blizzard makes, simple math there. It's not hourly, which would actually deter people from over-doing it if they saw a more immediate time/money suck, but monthly of course. But the goal is the same.
Yes, I have played it actually. Mind-numbing would be my description. Repetitive tasks, bland fantasy tropes and "writing" that actually seemed to make me feel dumber as I hear or saw more of it.
Simply put, I'd much rather be a terrible writer, artist, guitarist, novelist and general person than the finest Orc in all of Ogrimar.
The only difference is, farmers' hard work and long hours are actually valuable to society.
WOW is such a waste of time...spend hours and hours so a virtual character can wear a new shirt?
Millions of people will not gain you respectability.
"The more you play the more more Blizzard makes, simple math there."
Sadly, no. I play my flat rate of $15 a month and Blizzard makes the money whether I play or not. While we're on the topic, I've spoken with SO many WoW players who were connecting from their homes in rural places; small-town nowheres offering few diversions to people looking for adventure, competition and companionship. If you don't get it, you don't get it, but I'm a little dismayed by all the "WoW is for losers" snobbery I'm seeing here. I guess I expected something else from BoingBoing readers.
@Chris: "Imagin (sic) real life is boring. Imagine your are an introverted person and interacting with other people is often stressfull and draining, not exciting and invigorating."
Oh I can imagine all of that. Please reread what I wrote, because what you are describing is very similar to the sullen life of an alienated teen.
FWIW, here is my personal background. I'm the first American born child of immigrant parents who lived through the holocaust. They were protective of me and their other children to say the least. And we lived in a nice NYC neighborhood in the 1970s, but it too was filled with dangers... Real dangers... And real crime... I completely understand how retreating to a fantasy world helped me cope; I became an OCD player of text adventures from Adventure International and INFOCOM... It helped buffer the bad stuff...
But...
I grew older, I wanted a job and wanted to do real things. So I went and learned how to go about getting basic food-service work. And ironically I used the money from that job to buy games from Electronic Arts back in the day; like "Pinball Construction Kit" and "7 Cities of Gold". But that was more out of habit. I got bored with them quickly. And held onto them because the Internet didn't exist and eBay wasn't an option.
Slowly I learned how to "explore" in the real world. Movies at art houses in "the City" (aka: Manhattan), underground comics from cmic stores, going to concerts and generally hanging out.
Looking back on the days I dipped back into video games past the age of 1986, it was always during moments of deep family stress. My parents being hospitalized repeatedly through high school and college. And then their passing way post-college; that's actually when I first bought/played SIM City. Psychologically I gravitated to those games and the idea of gaming when I was nostalgic for the simple fun of childhood. Once in my hands, I really couldn't care less about those games in any way.
To me, I work with computers every day and see the benefits of an electronic world. My iPod is my friend and I love how digital cameras have brought the world of photography to those who previously couldn't afford lab/developing costs. Awesome! But the negative side that I think is discussed all the time is how retreating into a fantasy world all the time is damaging. I think at a certain point, you just shouldn't spend that much time in a humanless disconnected world. Whether that be Word of Warcraft, online poker or anything... An adult has more choices to have a real life.
Heck, I actually admire folks who get dressed up and go to comic conventions. They are at least making an effort to bring creativity to the real world.
Modern games are about immersion; "vintage games" are about distraction. When I see people who are 30+ years old waiting inline to get HALO 3, I can't think that's good at all. It's pretty sad to me. A guy at a bar killing time playing Galaga? That makes sense; 3 minutes at most killed before doing something real with real people.
I keep coming back to this discussion because it's really interesting to see the range of opinions and division.
Jack makes a really fine point about distraction versus immersion. I work with teens as a librarian and the difference between distracting games (bedazzled, alot of DS/PSP games) and immersion games is striking. The "social" aspect of immersive games is often sold as a positive, but the majority of chat is about the game itself, quests and such. Distraction games are limited and encourage you to play, win/lose and move on.
I do think video games as a medium can be very valuable and even sociable. I started DDR nights at our library because I saw kids at the mall playing and socializing more than I'd ever seen at other programs. We went from 10 kids to over 40 in one month. The kids take turns, hang out, talk, make friends and make for a great audience for book-talking and program promotion. And they're out in "meatspace" making friends, dancing and having fun. Most importantly, the program ends after an hour and half, they go outside, into the library, on with their lives. The notion of giving hours of my life over to a video game seems just wasteful of this brief little island of light between the gulfs of darkness.
@38, Jack:
So people who play WOW probably have a mental impairment? Yikes. So tell us, what is it YOU do for fun? Cure cancer? Save polar bears? You must be really full time productive to be so down on anyone who likes to take a break and have fun. I played WOW for 2 years. My girlfriend actually still plays. We also have friends we hang out with on weekends (IRL!), plus read books, watch TV, go hiking, etc. You and Garrett have an unrealistically narrow view of what types of people play these games. The "hard core" 40-hour-a-week-in-their-mother's-basement types are by far the exception, and Blizzard's own statistics support this. The vast majorty of WOW players have never set foot in the deepest, darkest dungeon, because the vast majority of WOW players are normal, casual people who play with friends for fun. It's not their lifetime commitment.
There's also about a billion people who sit at home occasionally reading fiction who would probably like a word with you. You don't need to have Asperger syndrome to enjoy a night at home doing something "unproductive", you know.
The top thing on my list of "Things to Do Before I Die", actually, is HAVE FUN. I'm at a loss to figure out how playing a guitar is somehow more beneficial to mankind and less of a waste of time than playing a game. By the time you're 80 years old in the old folks home, the only people who are going to care are probably other gamers or other guitar players, respectively. We can reflect back on the good old days before arthitis kicked in and made us unable to hit that chord or pwn those noobs. Personally, I get a lot more discussion milage out of past video game experiences than I bet most guitarists get out of guitar playing.
I've said in the past that if someone thinks that playing games is a waste of time, they're probably just playing the wrong games.
@nonesuch
Is WoW really fun? I'd counter that it's not. It's a simulation of enjoyment, not actual enjoyment.
Have you ever heard of "The Giant's Causeway"? It's an amazing geological phenomenon in Ireland created by underwater eruptions. It looks like the kind of fantastic alien landscape you'd see in WoW. Seeing pictures of it, even a wonderful 3D 360 simulation is not the same as walking it, feeling the wind on your face, the salt sea smell around you.
WoW is a simulation of activities people do all the time. Exploring, adventuring, wandering. It's dressed up in Tolkein-inspired drivel, but it's still simulating that experience. It's a shadow on the wall, a reflection.
Of course, you can argue that circumstance (ill health, poverty) can limit people's access to real world wonders, but in a world where blind men climb Everest and wheelchair athletes play basketball that doesn't hold alot of water for me.
Playing guitar is real. It's an actual thing, not a simulation thereof. Guitar Hero is a fun little distraction, but would you rather see musicians performing or people aping color-coded button on a screen? Would you rather see Brett Favre throw a perfect spiral or someone holding a joystick pretending to be Brett Favre pretending to throw a perfect spiral? Give me reality, please.
It gives me shivers that people are more interested in the shadow, the bytes, than they are in the real.
Just think on this, for every story of virtual conquest you have, or heap of gold you virtually raided, think of what could you have done in "the real world" with that time and energy? If your answer really is "Nothing I wouldn't trade for my time in WoW." Then...well I have no idea what to say to that.
@#51 - I guess you don't like chess then. After all, chess is a simulation of warfare. Actually, I suppose that makes Football (American or European), Hockey, Rugby, and other territorial-control sports verboten, because they're ALSO simulations of warfare. And why play a simulation when you could do the real thing?
Nobody, nobody mistakes playing Guitar Hero for playing the guitar - as you said, it's pressing multicoloured buttons. But it's not substituting for playing the guitar - it's a GAME. A GAME that happens to have the theme of playing a guitar, but you could make a guitar-playing themed board game too, and you wouldn't mistake that for guitar playing either.
People explore and ride bikes and drive cars for fun. They also play GAMES for fun. Sometimes these games have exploring, bike riding and car driving themes, but that doesn't make them a substitute for the real action.
Amazingly, the people that play these games are aware that World of Warcraft isn't like actually exploring. They're playing WoW because they DON'T WANT to actually go explore - they want to play a GAME.
Being a WoW addict myself, I enjoy these threads, which usually involve the anti-WoW people saying one of two things:
1) NERDS! DIRTY, BASEMENT DWELLING NERDS! GO RIDE A BIKE AND MEET A GIRL!
2) As a former (insert WoW or alternate game here) addict, I can confirm that these people are wasting precious oxygen. I am so glad I finally discovered bikes and girls!
Then there is the occasional WoW player weighing in, with a statement along the lines of:
As a self-confessed WoW addict, I am gainfully employed in DC, making a comfortable salary, engaged to a clever and smoking-hot girl, and thoroughly enjoying life. My most recent passport is almost full after a little more than a year, and I have taken full advantage of this summer's weather.
Here was this past weekend's schedule:
Friday, 6pm: Home from work. Log on to work on my warrior a little, then do the Halloween "Headless Horseman" event a few times.
Friday, 8pm: Friend arrives. Cards games ensue, including poker, Lunch Money, and Once Upon a Time. A bottle of Pear Muscato is finished, followed by some Absinthe, which my friend states 'tastes like divorce.' He may be right. I hope I never find out. The night ends around 1.
Saturday, 8am: Wake and head to my brother's, to help him prepare food for a company BBQ he is hosting. People gather around noon at the park, where we cover disc golf basics for those who have never played, play a round, then head back to eat. Eat, eat, eat, and drink until folks head out around 6. My brother and some co-workers are going to watch football, but I'd rather be in Azeroth, so...
Saturday, 7pm: Log on to WoW. More leveling of my Warrior, more Headless Horseman. Pass out early, around 10.
Sunday, 9am: Laundry and housecleaning.
Sunday, noon: Log on, farm primal elements for various tradeskills.
Sunday, 2pm: Brother arrives. Leftover BBQ is prepared. Disc golf again, at a different course near my house.
Sunday, 7pm: Brother leaves. Log on to do more horseman. My mage gets her spell damage ring, finally.
Sunday, 9pm: Friend arrives to pick up the bag he left on Friday. More cards. Kamikazes. Conversation.
Sunday, 10pm: Friend leaves. Log on. Final push to get my warrior to level 63. I train up his new skills, deal with some last minute in-game mail and item trading, and call it a night at 11:30.
You know, if one didn't know better, one might think that even folks who play WoW too much have lives...
"Is WoW really fun? I'd counter that it's not. It's a simulation of enjoyment"
Of for the love of Cthulu. Are movies fun? I'd counter that they're not. They're a simulation of stage plays, and you just can't simulate a live audience watching live actors on the stage. Pardon me, your apples are getting mixed in with my oranges.
Since I can't actually incinerate people with lightning bolts while playing an elaborate version of capture the flag, what's being "simulated," exactly? The exhilaration I feel when my team wins in Alterac Valley isn't a simulation. The camaraderie of 45 people working together to beat another team is real, even if those people aren't in the same room. Do you say paintball isn't really fun because they don't use actual bullets?
I think that the we're missing the point. This post isn't stating the social or economic importance of WOW players is greater of lesser than anyone else. What is being said is that players are a larger percentage of the population than other demographics. The point is that the "average American" isn't who we think. There are too many subsets of people out there to try and pin one down to represent the country's opions or feelings as a whole.
Here's the 999th, I have a career and a social life and still play WoW post - and I'm a married woman whose husband plays as well. We are the owner/operators of a tech start-up - that will probably IPO next year. I have gone from being a beginner horseback rider to a novice jumper and will be doing xcountry this spring. I own a horse, which anyone who owns one will tell you, they need time and attention, plus the weekly hours exercising to be fit enough to ride. This year, we went to Cannes on business, the South of France on holiday, one vacation to the Cayman's, and several trips to LA, LV and Orlando, all business. When do we play? Evenings and rained out or snowed out weekends. WoW reshuffled the game with casual gamers (ie most) in mind. It took me a while to get my hunter to level 60 (gave her up and started a druid), but none the less, it's a fun way to destress from the presures, hard work, and hours of starting and running a business. By the way, my husband (level 66 mage) has filed 40 physics intensive patents in the last year (3 granted so far - maybe the patent examiners play WoW?) and is going to file another 30 by the end of this year. He has also been hired to produce a film as well.
I was in a guild with all professional people, some of whom I have what I think are lasting friendships with. I know many people in the entertainment industry (our company is a technology that has many entertainment applications) who play WoW as well as other games. All of them have good jobs and active social lives. I have not experienced the teenager in the basement phenomenon that is the prevalent stereotype.
The continued collapse of network TV and the failure of most films has fueled the gaming industry and the more interactive it becomes the more you will see music, movies, and episodic tv type entertainment merging into the gaming environment. People will still travel and go out to eat and such, but their entertainment will be much different than it is now.
Sorry to say, but all these examples of other "simulations" all differ from WoW in one real resepct, they're real.
Chess is as much about studying your opponent's face, body language as it is strategy. Sports as war simulation? That's quite clever, but they are in an of themselves enjoyment beyond their value as simulation. Simulation apes reality, it doesn't create a new space.
Your "team winning in the alterac valley" hasn't won anything. You haven't developed any skills beyond becomes better at WoW. You haven't learned to read a person's face, fake out a defense or play a song. You've accomplished a simple task outlined as lines of code. It's not reality. You've gained nothing more than any other person could from reading the manual and following insructions. The experience is not new, not unique, not special and frankly, dull. WoW moves you along a set series of paths to a goal. Linear, progressive thinking that rewards the devotion of time. It's not unlike labor really. Where is the improvisation? Where is the creativity? In names for guilds? In arranging digital costumes? WoW is little more than a series of tasks dressed up as play.
Many of you seem to be defending the fact you "have lives". Of course you do. Again, the bell curve suggests what differentiates you from the addict is quite significant. What I've posited, from the start, is what could you be doing instead of the game? If you really feel it's a valuable use of your time and energy, then you have nothing to "defend". Enjoy your game, but understand what you may be missing out on.
@51, Garrett:
I guess I never outgrew "make believe". Most artists don't. Putting an apple on a desk and painting a picture of it is all good and well, but painting a picture of something that never existed is our old friend "make believe", and it's the basis for quite a lot of great art. I'd take Lord of the Rings any day over a Tipper Gore biography, even if LOTR is "simulated reality" and thus, if I understand your definitions, a waste of time compared to a real world biography.
You worry that we're more interested in imagination than the real. I'm worried that you're so interested in the real, you've lost your imagination.
Would I trade in my WOW time for other experiences? Not really. It was great fun and I have good memories and long lasting friendships with people all over the world as a result. We stay in touch via website so we can hook back up for other games. I can't think of why I would want to trade that away.
Heehee I love the anti-WoW/MMOG people..reminds me of the "Just Say NO" campaign in the 80's...misguided, out-of-date, and laughable.
So just to add my two cents..MMO player for over 10 years, been everything from "casual" to hardcore raider..I own a very successful business in the aviation industry; other members of my guild range from CISCO systems analysts, casino managers, stock brokers, entrepreneurs, and one professional baseball player (he just pitched his team into the World Series, if that's a hint), to college kids, stay-at-home moms (and dads!), to several retirees.
Some other heavy MMO players who I have not met personally, but you may have heard of..Steve Jobs, Justin Timberlake, Dave Chappelle, Travis Henry, and the guys from South Park (yes, the same ones who lampooned WoW).
@50, Nonesuch:
There's also about a billion people who sit at home occasionally reading fiction who would probably like a word with you. You don't need to have Asperger syndrome to enjoy a night at home doing something "unproductive", you know.
I would then like to have a word with me then, because I do that; read that is. And I don't see how that analogy is applicable here at all.
The act of reading is actually more flexible and communal than ANY online fantasy world. I can read on the train. I can read at home. And I can read anywhere and the act is completely different than pushing an online avatar to gather non existent gold.
Going to movies is far more communal as well. I enjoy going to the movies and being a part of a group that is there physically but are all taking a journey into a concocted world on-screen. The last film I saw on the big screen was the restored rerelease of Blade Runner and it was great fun! People applauded when the film began and needed. And one girl in my aisle was twittering with glee whenever Rutger Hauer said one of his over-the-top/dramatic lines. It was a communal event. Heck, afterwards when at a local burger place, there were other people there who had just seen the same film and were all commenting on the pluses/minuses.
What about going to a park? Or going to a museum? Or what about photography—my main hobby—where you go out and explore and can expand skills that are completely applicable in the real world. Heck, I was never raised to be a business person, but thanks to eBay and online forums, I've taught myself how to trade and negotiate with others with real goods and real cash. I learned a lot more from doing that than I ever did in a stupid Junior Achievement program they forced on me and others in H.S.
Chess is fine as long as it's played in person. I can't think of anything more cold than playing on a screen with an opponent you will never meet. Ditto with fantasy football/baseball. I've known some people who get together in the real world to do their "trades" that way. The same with poker as well; play face to face and I have no issues. Putzing around online? IT seems to miss the social aspect of getting friends together and matching wits and having some beers.
As a kid—for a birthday present—some relatives suggested I get a disc drive for my Atari 400. I was more into getting a 10 speed bike to explore the city I live in. And I actually had to fight to explain how much I wanted to ride a bike than flip floppies around.
There are tons of options. And what it comes down to is distraction versus immersion. And immersive games I find to be a deadly way to avoid life and feed a delusion of a life.
With all the ways one can untether themselves from technology nowadays—iPods and cell phones for example—it's amazing to me efforts are made to lock people into staring at a screen in isolation even more and more.
To Garrett:
Your assertion that WoW/MMO's are just "linear, progressive thinking that rewards the devotion of time" may be accurate for a casual player, but I assure you it is not so for those that take on the most difficult encounters.
Major companies are using success in games such as WoW as a positive on job applications. Running a successful raid guild in MMO's is an exercise in planning, development/implementation of structures and knowledge bases, critical thinking, problem solving, etc etc.
MI-5 (British secret service) is also recruiting directly out of online games, as they have found the skills learned in games such as these equate well to their work.
So..you may want to give all these people a call, since you've made it quite clear they're wasting their time recruiting from games.
Nonesuch:
You worry that we're more interested in imagination than the real. I'm worried that you're so interested in the real, you've lost your imagination.
Not at all. But I prefer my own imagination and all the wonders and horrors it can cook up, to wandering around endlessly in someone else's rather slipshod immitation knock-off fantasy word.
When books are adapted to films it's often argued that the film "locks" the public's view of the characters and story. Can you picture Dorothy without Judy Garland's iconic grin?
WoW is entering another person (or team of persons) imagination. It's facinating at first, but soon you realize you're progressing along this person's preset path. Can you be the Orc who joins the alliance? Can you build a home or change the quests or find a new better compromise? Can you alter the world in any way other than the way which you are allowed? No. Blizzard even shuts down private individuals who attempt to host their own versions of Warcraft, ones where perhaps the rules change?
I enjoy visiting the imaginations of others in fiction, in art, in movies, music and even games. But dwelling there, toiling there, when I could be crafting my own worlds, my own adventures? Not for me, not at all.
As for WoW as a job training tool or, , a way of recruiting intelligence assets, I find that notion chilling. Imagine an intelligence officer "planning a raid" but this one is on an Afghan, not gnome, village. Like the generation of soldiers deployed around the American empire today, raised on violent video games and pumped up on blaring rage-filled music, the disconnect between what is "real" and fantasy can only lead to disaster.
But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
When I was a kid, we didn't really have video games. We had to go out and play games like "War", which is where one child pretends to murder another child by pointing at him with a finger, stick, or, ideally, realistic looking toy gun, and going, "Bang!" whereupon the other child was encouraged to clutch his chest, yell, "Argh!" and fall down. If we'd had access to exploding packets of fake blood and wouldn't get yelled at for getting it on our clothes, I'm sure we would have used them.
Barbaric, I know, yet somehow we all grew up and didn't become homicidal maniacs. Somehow we all figured out how to seperate fiction from reality.
Fiction was more fun. Still is. I'll see your Irish rocks and raise you a Stargate.
If you think today's children are "raised on violent video games" and this "can only lead to disaster", I can only wonder in amazement at what your own childhood was like, that you can't seem to relate to any of this. Do you really think many death row inmates were raised playing video games? I think you greatly mistake the source of violent behaviors in our society. For all your worldly knowledge, you get the strangest things wrong.
Clearly, you and Jack must feel sorry for me, that I can immerse myself so readily in fiction. Well, I feel sorry for you guys, that you can't, or won't. I grew up, but I didn't grow old. I'm amazed you even know what The Wizard of Oz is, since it sounds like exactly the sort of thing you don't approve of. Witches? A talking scarecrow? Surely these are perposterous examples of someone else's slipshod immitation knock-off fantasy world, as you called it.
Star Trek, Discworld, Alice in Wonderland, Azeroth, Middle Earth and a million other fantasy worlds may be so much artificial rubbish to you, but I like em, and I think I'll keep em, and my friends and I (some who live local, some who live across the globe) can continue to have a good time experiencing them and talking about them. We can enjoy rocks in Ireland, but I'll add on the worlds of Neil Gaiman and yes, the World of Warcraft, and no regrets there.
@63, NONESUCH: I really think you're fighting arguments nobody is making and I think you haven't read anything I and others have said.
My issue is the distinction between games that are amusements and games which are immersive alternate realities that disconnect users from reality. You seem to be going off on tangents of simply having an imagination and an odd tirade on "raised on violent video games" as if that's he crux of what's happening.
Which means you're missing the point entirely. Which in a way doesn't surprise me at all.
If you think anyone who is against hard-core immersive gamers has no imagination, far from it. I appreciate fantasy and escape. It's the difference between dressing up like a fantasy character and playing pretend and truly believing you ARE that character and disconnecting from reality.
I'm baffled by the degree of online gaming hate going on, especially considering where it's happening; the postings on Boing Boing tend to be fairly MMOG friendly, if somewhat tongue-in-cheek so at times.
Jack's rant against people with Asperger's syndrome is even more worrying (unless you're just trolling). Jack, I don't know if someone with Asperger's has caused you harm in the past, but if so I'm pretty sure that in a lot of ways your life has been improved by people with Asperger's, and as such maybe you'd like to reconsider what appears to be a low opinion of people with the condition.
Now, I'm a moderately addicted WoW player myself (as of last night I have my second 70), with not insubstantial misgivings regarding that fact, as well as someone who has fed an animal that I've later eaten (in other words, I'm no stranger to farming). I've lived in areas ranging from rural to heavily urbanized, and I've associated with everyone from rustics to eggheads (and even one or two rustic eggheads).
All that established, here's what I've got to say on the debate raging here:
*Try not to spend your life in front of a screen. It's simply not healthy for you, physically or mentally. I'd recommend getting an average of 3 hours of WoW a day at most, which I'm well aware can be pretty hard to do.
*Assuming you can tear yourself away from a screen to do more than sleep, there are a lot worse ways to spend your time there than by playing WoW, which has in its favor a high degree of social interaction (largely absent from television, film, or the typical video game) as well as meaningful things to do in the game besides kill stuff, although admittedly this is the primary focus of the game.
*Too much real-life social interaction is just as bad for some people as not enough is for others, and an inability to be comfortable when you're alone is just as unhealthy as an inability to be comfortable when not alone. Perhaps it's much more socially acceptable, but then again why wouldn't a phenomenon facilitating social interaction be socially acceptable?
*Finally, it beats me what makes anyone think that real-life social interaction is any less of a resource management game than teaming up to defeat an orc is. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that our shared social reality can be as much a virtual construction as Azeroth is, or that it can be more addictive than any MMORPG to date. Some people enjoy it more than they would WoW, some less. I'm not here saying that you suck because I think the game you enjoy isn't fun, or because you can afford to go to Ireland and I can't. I'd appreciate it if you showed the same restraint. And I say this as someone who's been able to show sympathy for your position in the past; perhaps those expressing the most vitrolic positions are themselves recovering MMORPG addicts?
(In addition, I'm always disappointed by those who bring up the allegory of the cave in this type of situation. In a modern context, it's far too facile to use it to criticize our dominant forms of entertainment, when in fact its meaning is more that direct knowledge of a truth is preferable to distorted representations of it. Or are you saying that those poor people locked up in the dark, dank cave shouldn't have even had shadow puppets to amuse themselves with?)
OK. As far as the original posting goes, those pointing out that this is something like comparing the population of ballerinas with those collecting teacups are pretty much spot-on (although I'll admit farming is more crucial to our continued existence than ballet is).
It is however telling that a leisure activity that didn't exist 5 years ago is now more widespread than the dominant method of supporting oneself about a hundred years ago, but then again the population of golfers in the U.S. is even larger than that of WoW players. But does this mean we have anything more to look forward to than the Happy Gilmore of MMORPGs?