DIY tooth-pulling
In a survey of 5,000 people in the UK, six percent claimed that they had done DIY dentistry, including yanking their own teeth and fixing cracked crowns with glue. Apparently they resorted to such self treatment because they couldn't get in to see a National Health Service dentist or pay for private care. From CNN:
One respondent in Lancashire, northern England, claimed to have extracted 14 of their own teeth with a pair of pliers. In Liverpool, one of those collecting data for the survey interviewed three people who had pulled out their own teeth in one morning.Link
"I took most of my teeth out in the shed with pliers. I have one to go," another respondent wrote.
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Sometimes I think it's just me with the severe dental phobias. Unicorn. Chaser. Please.
No doubt the next stop will be shadowy dentist red-light districts, as seen on "The Day Today."
"Dentists. Time was when dental care was free. But now, rising costs are forcing people with sick mouths onto the streets."
CHASER. CHASER.
Maybe we clap a lot, and wish really hard, we can replace our current for-profit dentistry system with a government run one like the UK has!
this doesn't sound quite so idyllic a picture as sicko painted it.
a killer toothache can be some of the worst pain you'll ever have. I can't imagine having the system so bad that you'd deal with it yourself.
This is the exact problem with a unified health-care system. When everybody has it, everybody goes in for every little thing, and then the people who need it have to wait forever.
The free clinic by my house is no longer taking appointments. Why? They have appointments until August of NEXT YEAR.
God forbid you have a broken arm, or need an ultrasound for kidney stones. Or any other kind of medical treatment, because all the crackheads who get shot up because they are paying with monopoly money for their drug are 'emergency' cases.
You would need to quadruple the number of doctors in the USA in order to meet demand--and that isin't taking into account that some areas like New York which have 4000% the population density of Nebraska.
So we'd need more doctors... but nobody would become a doctor then, because you'd get no money anymore. So there would be a need, but no real demand to become one.
I could go on all day about this, but it's moot.
When I was a kid, my father pulled all of my baby teeth when they got loose. I wonder what percentage of the survey responses (found here, btw, http://147.29.80.160/portal/csc/genericContentGear/download/Dentistry+watch+national+summary+of+results+-+final3-15-10.pdf?document_id=116400639)
may include self-treatment such as this, or use of over the counter analgesics. The question (pages 19, 36, 52) only mentions "self-medication", which is a fairly encompassing term.
Also, I need a root canal at the moment, and the earliest appointment my dentist could schedule (here in good old NJ, USA) is two months from now. Not sure this is the speedy service someone might expect from a private system. Still, this is better than my last NYC dentist who could never find an appointment sooner than 6 months out, and this is with full, private insurance.
British, Canadian, and other socialized medical systems are as good as they've been claimed to be.
Do none of you see the connection between this article appearing now, and the recent piece in the New York Times -- you can read about it here -- where Dean Baker says:
That story comes out, and next thing you know there's another story -- gosh, right out of the blue! -- reporting that 6% of Brits had used "some form of self-treatment on their teeth, and that some unspecified fraction of that number claimed to have done major oral surgery on themselves. Slap a sensationalistic headline on it like "Brits Resort to Pulling Own Teeth" and it's ready to roll.Result: half this thread has the predictable reaction that socialized medicine must be bad, bad bad. Which, by the way, it isn't.
I swear, it's like watching a tribe that's never been exposed to mass media before trying to cope with the concept of advertising. Don't any of you have a suspicious bone in your bodies?
Dragonphyre, you need to do some more research, or at least read the article linked to in the post. Dental treatment in the UK is a problem because a few years ago UK dentists decided to opt out of the NHS en masse. The problem is not us nasty socialist Brits abusing free treatment, but that the government in its various incarnations is making a pig's ear of trying to covertly turn socialised medicine into capitalized medicine, like that so-admirable system you have in the US.
Who the frell goes to a dentist for frivolous treatment anyway? People fear dentists; most of us have to be cajoled, persuaded, and finally dragged kicking and screaming to the surgery to get necessary treatment.
As someone who has spend a few years in the UK, (Scotland and London) the "bad teeth" jokes are all true - thanks in a large part to their socialized health care system.
Nothing in that article beats sitting in an all-hours NYC emergency dental clinic and seeing people come in with the kind of jawbone-destroying advanced dental abscesses that simply shouldn't happen in a modern, developed country.
I haven't had emergency dentistry overseas, but I have wound up in those dreaded national health care emergency rooms. They were kind, competent, and saw me much faster than emergency rooms would in the United States.
Imagine having your mother have chest pains and dizziness while she's visiting you, taking her to the only real ER in your neighborhood, and waiting eight hours -- without her even being seen by a triage nurse!
I've been in the ER of a major New York hospital on a busy Friday night, when they were stacking patients three in a bay. (I shared mine with an elderly woman who had a big infected sore on her shin, and a disconsolate young Latino couple who were having a miscarriage.) As soon as the staff decided I wasn't imminently going to die on them, I got bumped to the bottom of the roster, and spent the evening lying back with an oxygen tube up my nose. Eventually I felt well enough to go home with my husband's help, so I did. It was clear I wasn't going to get seen; that ER was running at several hundred percent of capacity, and some of the people coming in were "do it now or do it never" trauma cases.
The last time I wound up waiting for hours in an ER, I was sitting next to an elderly woman who had an obvious probable diagnosis. Earlier that day, when she'd been cleaning, she'd felt a jolt like an electric shock, and had fallen over. Afterward, she was dizzy, and couldn't feel anything on one side of her body. By the time I talked to her, it was late at night. She'd been sitting there for five or six hours. She said she just hoped she'd get to go home after they saw her. I told her that probably wasn't going to happen. I didn't tell her, because it wouldn't have done any good, that with some strokes, aggressive treatment in the first hour can make a huge difference in the outcome. She was hours past the point where that would have mattered.
I've also been told by normal, non-emergency medical providers that the earliest I could see a specialist in my particular area of medicine would be several months down the road. If I don't have access to treatment, I don't have a life. And what brought on this emergency? The specialist department an hour's drive north of here that I'd been going to for fifteen years was shut down on short notice -- rumor said, because it wasn't as profitable as other specialties that could be using that space.
I could go on. It's easy to rag on the quality of socialized medicine when you've never experienced it first hand, and you only make casual use of the medical system in the United States. Talk to anyone who's had to manage a chronic medical condition out of their own pocket.
Whoops, I nearly forgot -- someone asked for a chaser? Here you go:
Three Guinea Pigs and a Cucumber.
"Result: half this thread has the predictable reaction that socialized medicine must be bad, bad bad. Which, by the way, it isn't."
I didn't mean to imply that with my post. I'm just saying Sicko (which i liked) painted a very rosy view of their system.
About a year ago i had a toothache that made suicide look like a good idea. I had dental insurance but it was still an expensive trip. I'm still paying for it now actually (almost done). I can see why some people just yanked the tooth themselves (had mine root canaled and crowned)
If i went back and had to choose between paying a lot to have it fixed then, or wait in near agony for several months to have it done free with socialized health care spending that time doped up on painkillers, i'd pay all over again.
I'm not saying that damns the idea of socialized medicine, I'm just saying that toothaches fucking hurt, and what i'd wait out a few months for other non-critical surgery, may not be an option with tooth issues. You also don't want to risk an infection spreading to your heart either.
I live in the UK, in a small village outside Cambridge, and can say this report bears no resemblance to my experience. My local dental surgery is a place I actually like going to, as it employs charming and attractive female dentists, whose fingers I don't mind so much having in my mouth.
It's very efficient too. They sent me a postcard about a fortnight ago, reminding me that the time was approaching for my six-monthly checkup, and I got an appointment for less than three weeks from when I phoned.
And it's only five-minutes drive from my house, and there's and equally wonderful medical practice next-door... Where I live, at least, the NHS is wonderful.
@Nelson.C:
I wasn't referring to dentistry, directly. I was referring to nationalized general hospital health care.
I apologize for not making this more clear. however, my reasoning still stands. If it is available for free--no matter what it is--people will abuse it. If people are abusing it, then it will get canceled or the quality will go down.
The average wait time for a doctor's appointment in Canada is over 3 months. This excludes emergencies. Obviously a broken bone is going to get in to be treated.
But what about a hairline fracture? something that couldn't be diagnosed without an x-ray?
Three months for an ear infection that might result in deafness in that ear? Three months for am pain in the side that could be the onset of appendicitis? Three months for blood in the stool, when it's not hemorrhoids but a bifurcated colon?
yea, that's a GREAT system... Lets make the people wait and say, "Yea, you know what? I don't need to go in. It's just gas." and then they die when their appendix burst and let that toxic float around their body for a few days. Or from fecal matter going into their bloodstream.
Again, this is not an attack on YOUR system directly, but a generalization of all free health care systems.
Do you know that bums in the USA like to take ambulance rides? Sure do. Hobo-taxis are a real problem, and because of the way that the US law works ("No patient shall be turned away") they get rides and a free overnight stay in the hospital and a free meal. Then they check themselves out of the hospital the next day, and go about begging change off of people.
They don't pay taxes, but they enjoy everything that my tax-dollars do pay for.
I don't know what the answer is. I know it's not free, that's for sure. Free == abuse.
I could go on. It's easy to rag on the quality of socialized medicine when you've never experienced it first hand, and you only make casual use of the medical system in the United States. Talk to anyone who's had to manage a chronic medical condition out of their own pocket.
Since we're attempting policy by anecdote ..
Two weeks ago my wife had a heart attack. Drover her to the E.R., a ten minute drive. She was admitted and rushed into a bay, given the initial treatment. When they determined that she was, by golly, really having a heart attack they bundled her into an ambulance for a mile ride up the road to where the cardiac surgeon was, at the Catholic hospital.
We got to the ER at 4:30. By 5:15 she was in surgery, out by 7:00 and in ICU. She came home four days later. Care was consistently good and she's got one of the best cardio docs in the state - a guy who immigrated here from Syria.
We're covered by insurance of course - who in the world pays 'out of pocket' when they have health problems? I looked into self-insurance a few years ago and .. it was available. Some people do but how many? How much of a percentage is that? How many people choose to not cover themselves?
Do we have a health problem in this country? Perhaps - perhaps part of the problem is where you choose to live. Move to the upper Midwest - our emergency rooms are not crowded, our docs are good and attracted here by the quality of life and low cost of living. We get some good ones out here.
B. Dunbar
yea, that's a GREAT system... Lets make the people wait and say, "Yea, you know what? I don't need to go in. It's just gas." and then they die when their appendix burst and let that toxic float around their body for a few days. Or from fecal matter going into their bloodstream.
I see you ascribe to the "it just makes sense" school of knowledge. Unfortunately the alternative epistemology known as scientific method--that is, theoretical structures that make statistically valid predictions based on empirical fact--does not produce the same answers as you get.
In particular, Canadian lifespans are significantly longer than American (on average about 2.5 years longer.) Also, Canada's almost completely socialized health care system costs the public purse quite a bit less than the United States far less socialized system. You can check the figures yourself: the US spends more public money per capita on health care than Canada does, and has higher infant mortality and shorter lifespans.
Ergo, regardless of what "just makes sense" to you, the fact is that treating health care as a public good does not necessarily mean that any patient is denied essential services due to a purportedly inevitable scarcity.
The Canadian health care system has problems, but then so does every other health care system. We may not know the solutions, but fantasy scenarios of the the kind your describe are not relevant to those problems, and the introduction of such fantasy scenarios does nothing to further constructive discussion of health care policy.
Dragonphyre said:
No. That's simply not true.People don't like most medical or dental procedures. Infinite free medical care won't make them have three or four mammograms a year, or sign up for unnecessary colonoscopies, or schedule a monthly tetanus shot. They undergo medical procedures because doctors tell them they need to do it, and they still don't like it when they do.
Your scenario just doesn't hang together.
I think the problem with the UK health system might be that there are actually two systems, private and NHS, and doctors seem to have a choice as to which one they work with. Here in Belgium, there is no such distinction, you can see any doctor you like and have most of the cost, except for a small personoal contribution, reimbursed. We also have compulsory health insurance, paid for jointly by the individual and the company they work for. For the non-employed, the state chips in. Waiting lists are very short, in fact, people come from other EU countries to be treated, because the wait is so short here. Quality is excellent. I can see my dentist within the week, usually. I can see a regular doctor within the day, and ER waits are reasonable. Yay, Belgium!
"Yay, Belgium!"
amazing beer and good health care. I may have to move.
Your scenario just doesn't hang together.
It's true for a broad range of goods and services - people don't value what they get for free. Healthcare isn't magical - it's just another good and service.
Use more Hedley and Wyche
"..And It Taste Good On A Cracker"
Yay, Belgium!
That's funny. Except for the part about people coming from all over the EU and compulsory health insurance, you've described conditions as I experience them in Wisconsin.
Plus we have some pretty darn good beer.
I'm not sure where any of the commenters talking about "free" health care are getting their facts, but I'm a Canadian citizen and I pay a fee every month to help pay for health care. Yes, it is a nominal fee, but I pay it. In other provinces, the fee comes out of taxes, but it is still paid by citizens.
I've never had a three month wait to get an appointment. It's always been under two weeks for a doctor's appointment or lab test. Now I'm sure that in some cities the three month figure is true, but not every one by a long shot.
Socialized medicine in this country is under strain, yes, but you can still get medical help if you are poor or disadvantaged and we are trying to fix the problems. I value this system and hope that the United States can find answers for their own.
Use more Hedley and Wyche
"..And It Taste Good On A Cracker"
Does a rich person's toothache have more of a right to remedy than a poor person's? If you say "yes" to that question, fuck you. The socialized medicine debate is as simple as that.
Reading this post, I had no thought to socialized versus privatized medicine. I thought:
There is no way in hell I am pulling out one of my own teeth no matter what.
I've been through tooth extraction, too many cavity fills, "abrasion" of my jaw bone when some adult teeth wouldn't come in, extraction of my impacted wisdom teeth, TMJ, splints, braces (for serious TMJ, not cosmetic reasons), "slenderizing" (euphemism for using a dremel like tool on the sides of your teeth), and general quack-like dentistry madness. But the moment you put pliers to your own teeth, you've descended into some animistic realm that I cannot comprehend. Tooth pain hurts, yes, but I can comprehend that action no more than I can fathom cutting off your own leg because it's stuck in a bear trap.
British people have had bad teeth for generations. It's not NHS/etc. It's cultural. They don't value teeth like we do. Brits will claim we only perceive their teeth as bad because of the PAL -> NTSC resolution change causing teeth to look bad. But no, it's because they don't brush their freakin' teeth. I see people like that in the US fairly frequently - we call them "hillbillies," and they're not really looked up to.
I like British people. But seriously. Brush your teeth. Add some floss in there, too, and maybe some toothpaste.
Well, it's nice to see the old British teeth stereotypes rolled out here again. For the record, though, the above commenter from Belgium is pretty much on the money. Back in the 1980s, NHS dentristry worked: appointments and treatment were easy to get and available to all. Since the 1990s, though, many or even most dentists have moved into private practice, depriving NHS patients.
Incidentally, though, in my experience the NHS dentistry crisis is to an extent reserved to more affluent areas. My parents live in a leafy London satellite town where there are now no NHS dentists available, and my friends in a rather nice part of West London have the same problem. Living in a rather less affluent corner of SE London I have a choice of four NHS dentists within walking distance.
PS - believe it or not, I've never heard of anyone here attempting DIY dentistry and, yes, I use toothpaste (it arrived on these shores last year, along with Jazz and the mass produced automobile - it's as if we're living with the Jetsons now, I tell you).
Teresa wrote,
That story comes out, and next thing you know there's another story -- gosh, right out of the blue! -- reporting that 6% of Brits had used "some form of self-treatment on their teeth, and that some unspecified fraction of that number claimed to have done major oral surgery on themselves. Slap a sensationalistic headline on it like "Brits Resort to Pulling Own Teeth" and it's ready to roll.
So you're saying David Pecovitz (convenient how he just finds the link out of the blue) and CNN are now part of some vast right wing conspiracy to cover up the fact that we don't have a free market in dentists in this country? Talk about groupthink in action.
I think Baker's point is something those of us opposed to socialized medicine could agree with whole heartedly -- we need more of the free market in medicine, not less of it. Baker is absolutely right -- protectionism in the medical field needs to go.
Give us your tired, your poor...and your foreign dentists!
Those comparing US to UK teeth should be aware that the UK does not add fluoride to the water, whereas it's routinely added to the majority of water supplies in the US. Fluoridation probably has a much greater effect than the free/pay nature of dental work...
It's not just Flouridation. In Wales there is reportedly one dentist for every 2,000 people. Not "one NHS dentist": one dentist, period. You simply have no chance finding a good NHS dentist at all. Because of this, my sister who lives in Wales comes to stay with me in London once every 6 months to get her teeth looked at - it's just way easier to get an appointment here, and a decent dentist.